Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[LynnS]

Has anyone seen Star Trek Discovery season 2?  The time paradox they employ is basically the same as Martin's use of causality and time.  The seven red bursts are caused by a character in the future, but the effect is experienced in the past.  The character (Michael) doesn't know that she is the cause of these events until she discovers that in order for the events to occur she must create them.  Spock is driven insane because he has seen the red bursts in dreams before they occur.  He calls them memories of the future. 

To me, the events at the Skirling Pass is essentially the same thing.  In the crypts of Winterfell, Bran has 'memories of the future'. 

Tree-Bran can speak to Jon in his wolf dream (from Bran's own future); because by the time Bran reaches the cave and is wed to the tree; Jon is long gone from the Skirling Pass. 

Another example is in Bran's coma dream;  He sees the Winterfell weirwood looking at it's reflection in the pool but doesn't realize that he is the tree in the future.  The tree looks up at Bran knowingly. 

Reflections or mirror images also come into play at the Skirling Pass.  Bran experiences the order of event in reverse from Jon.. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

"The wolf ate," Jojen said. "Not you. Take care, Bran. Remember who you are."

He remembered who he was all too well; Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. He could not understand why Jojen was always trying to pull him back now. Bran used the strength of his arms to squirm to a sitting position. "I have to tell Osha what I saw. Is she here? Where did she go?

Jon experiences the order as Bran speaks to him and then touches ghost:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

Frey Family Reunion found a really interesting tell when examining the two passages.  In the crypts, Bran doesn't like the dark; In the cave he tells Jon, he's not afraid anymore and he likes the dark.

I'm not sure that there are other tells or mirrored events but I haven't really looked.  

The situation with Hodor as explained by Martin isn't something I would not have caught onto and the show's version of this seemed so hokey and incredulous.  It's as though they didn't quite understand what he was saying and couldn't convey what Martin was saying visually.  Although they did make the point that it's Bran in crisis in the future causing an effect in the past.  I think that Hodor is impacted because he shares a soul with Bran in a sense; or their souls are bonded by Bran's warging of Hodor. When Bran becomes tree and time no longer constrains him, Hodor is affected in the past.  

I think the singular incident that impacted Hodor the greatest was Martin's version of the hold the door/hold the pass; when they are attacked by wights at the door of Brynden Rivers cave.  Bran-Hodor must hold the pass until everyon is throught the door.

Bran's internal experience is supercharged and very different from skinchanging Hodor at Queenscrown.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Hodor, stop," said Bran. "Hodor. Wait." Something was wrong. Summer smelled it, and so did he. Something bad. Something close. "Hodor, no, go back."

Coldhands was still climbing, and Hodor wanted to keep up. "Hodor, hodor, hodor," he grumbled loudly, to drown out Bran's complaints. His breathing had grown labored. Pale mist filled the air. He took a step, then another. The snow was almost waist deep and the slope was very steep. Hodor was leaning forward, grasping at rocks and trees with his hands as he climbed. Another step. Another. The snow Hodor disturbed slid downhill, starting a small avalanche behind them.

Sixty yards. Bran craned himself sideways to better see the cave. Then he saw something else. "A fire!" In the little cleft between the weirwood trees was a flickering glow, a ruddy light calling through the gathering gloom. "Look, someone—"

Hodor screamed. He twisted, stumbled, fell.

Bran felt the world slide sideways as the big stableboy spun violently around. A jarring impact drove the breath from him. His mouth was full of blood and Hodor was thrashing and rolling, crushing the crippled boy beneath him.

Something has hold of his leg. For half a heartbeat Bran thought maybe a root had gotten tangled round his ankle … until the root moved. A hand, he saw, as the rest of the wight came bursting from beneath the snow.

Hodor kicked at it, slamming a snow-covered heel full into the thing's face, but the dead man did not even seem to feel it. Then the two of them were grappling, punching and clawing at each other, sliding down the hill. Snow filled Bran's mouth and nose as they rolled over, but in a half a heartbeat he was rolling up again. Something slammed against his head, a rock or a chunk of ice or a dead man's fist, he could not tell, and he found himself out of his basket, sprawled across the hillside, spitting snow, his gloved hand full of hair that he'd torn from Hodor's head.

All around him, wights were rising from beneath the snow.

Two, three, four. Bran lost count. They surged up violently amidst sudden clouds of snow. Some wore black cloaks, some ragged skins, some nothing. All of them had pale flesh and black hands. Their eyes glowed like pale blue stars.

Three of them descended on the ranger. Bran saw Coldhands slash one across the face. The thing kept right on coming, driving him back into the arms of another. Two more were going after Hodor, lumbering clumsily down the slope. Meera was going to climb right into this, Bran realized, with a sick sense of helpless terror. He smashed the snow and shouted out a warning.

Something grabbed hold of him.

That was when his shout became a scream. Bran filled a fist with snow and threw it, but the wight did not so much as blink. A black hand fumbled at his face, another at his belly. Its fingers felt like iron. He's going to pull my guts out.

But suddenly Summer was between them. Bran glimpsed skin tear like cheap cloth, heard the splintering of bone. He saw a hand and wrist rip loose, pale fingers wriggling, the sleeve faded black roughspun. Black, he thought, he's wearing black, he was one of the Watch. Summer flung the arm aside, twisted, and sank his teeth into the dead man's neck under the chin. When the big grey wolf wrenched free, he took most of the creature's throat out in an explosion of pale rotten meat.

The severed hand was still moving. Bran rolled away from it. On his belly, clawing at the snow, he glimpsed the trees above, pale and snow-cloaked, the orange glow between.

Fifty yards. If he could drag himself fifty yards, they could not get him. Damp seeped through his gloves as he clutched at roots and rocks, crawling toward the light. A little farther, just a little farther. Then you can rest beside the fire.

The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he'd brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him. If I can reach that cave …

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away, bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back. "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down. Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR!" he bellowed.

Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy. "Hodor," Hodor said with every step. "Hodor, hodor." He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

Up above them, flaming figures were dancing in the snow.

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

 

to be continued...

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

@LynnS

When I quoted the World Book and Maester Fomas' theory on the Others, in a text titled Lies of the Ancients, I decided to do a google search of Fomas.  What it led me to was Kurt Voggegut's book Cat's Cradle. 

Vonnegut creates a nonesense religion called Bokononism for his book.  In the religion a "foma" is a harmless lie told over generations so that it becomes commonly believed.  Interestingly enough in Cat's Cradle, a scientist creates a crystal called ice-9 which ends up causing the entire world to freeze over.  The survivors have to live underground in caves waiting for the world to thaw out.  

As for a character or characters becoming aware of the future and past events at once and using this power to manipulate human history for a specific outcome, I think we should check out another Vonnegut book, the Sirens of Titan.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think we should check out another Vonnegut book, the Sirens of Titan.

I'm looking for a downloadable pdf.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away, bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back. "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down. Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR!" he bellowed.

This is what I think Martin is specifically referring as holding the door/holding the pass.  Hodor is at the limit of his endurance and Bran is suddenly Hodor.  Now seven feet of fury, bellowing and roaring. 

It seems to me that Bran is pulled into Hodor by some power not unlike the direwolves who initially originate the wolf dreams or some god power dormant in Bran.  Bran does make a connection between Summer and Hodor when he asks what would happen if he should die.  Would he become Hodor or Summer?  He seems to recognize that he now has a soul bond with Hodor as well.  So in this sense, Hodor can be affected in the past by Bran's actions in the future. This might inform why Bran and Hodor know each other so well.   Why they have that special understanding of each other.

Now that we know that Martin has been 'experimenting with time; this puts a different frame on the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  As for the ill-fitting armor;  I think it would be easy for Howland to take what needed from the Harrenhal armory and stable.  Given that all the attention and traffic would be centered on the jousting and festivities, Howland could easily go unnoticed.  Going about unnoticed seems to be a skill of the crannogmen.  

The shield is the device of the old gods and moreover it's laughing.  This god is having the time of his life.  There is also a suggestion that Bran is the laughing tree in The Prince of Winterfell chapter.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

It makes sense that the device on the shield is Bran's device.  Yes he is not yet born, but tree-Bran is not constrained by timea nd can probably travel to the Isle of Faces and potentially meet with Howland Reed when he visited.  Howland knows the magic of his people and this includes "talking to trees".  He goes to the Ilse of Faces to speak to the Green Men.  Who can do that without special powers?

Now that Bran has heard the story, he craves being a Knight if only for one day and his experience with Hodor and holding the pass was exhilarating.  I think what happened with Hodor informs what happened to Howland as the KotLT:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

Among other things, the booming voice is the tell that Bran is present.

[LynnS]

I suspect there are limitations to what Bran can affect in the past; that certain conditions apply.  Bran's interaction with Jon at the Skirling Pass is a psychic connection; an altered state of consciousness; something he can't initiate with someone who is dead.

Curiously,  it's Hodor who reaches into Bran's wolf dream.  Their psychic connection goes both ways:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Hodor."

The sudden sound made him stop and snarl. The wolves regarded him with green and yellow eyes, bright with the last light of day. None of them had heard it. It was a queer wind that blew only in his ears. He buried his jaws in the deer's belly and tore off a mouthful of flesh.

"Hodor, hodor."

No, he thought. No, I won't. It was a boy's thought, not a direwolf's. The woods were darkening all about him, until only the shadows of the trees remained, and the glow of his cousins' eyes. And through those and behind those eyes, he saw a big man's grinning face, and a stone vault whose walls were spotted with niter. The rich warm taste of blood faded on his tongue. No, don't, don't, I want to eat, I want to, I want . . .

The question of when Walder becomes Hodor is answered in Arya's POV:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

Hodor can only exist as Hodor on the day Bran is born. Hodor is Bran's dark angel.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Summer followed them up the tower steps as Hodor carried Bran back to his bed. Old Nan was asleep in her chair. Hodor said "Hodor," gathered up his great-grandmother, and carried her off, snoring softly, while Bran lay thinking. Robb had promised that he could feast with the Night's Watch in the Great Hall. "Summer," he called. The wolf bounded up on the bed. Bran hugged him so hard he could feel the hot breath on his cheek. "I can ride now," he whispered to his friend. "We can go hunting in the woods soon, wait and see." After a time he slept.

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

|He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

Hodor's psychic connection reaches into Bran's dreams.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Curiously,  it's Hodor who reaches into Bran's wolf dream.  Their psychic connection goes both ways:

That makes sense. Once Bran skinchanged Hodor, a part of Bran stayed in Hodor and a part of Hodor in Bran...just like the warg bond to Summer.

 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

That makes sense. Once Bran skinchanged Hodor, a part of Bran stayed in Hodor and a part of Hodor in Bran...just like the warg bond to Summer.

 

Precisely.  Why do you suppose Hodor is often described as humming?  What does he hear? 

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

Precisely.  Why do you suppose Hodor is often described as humming?  What does he hear? 

It could be a symptom of mental illness associated with schizophrenia. Recent studies have shown that humming can reduce the unpleasant auditory hallucinations that frequently occur with schizophrenia.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

It could be a symptom of mental illness associated with schizophrenia. Recent studies have shown that humming can reduce the unpleasant auditory hallucinations that frequently occur with schizophrenia.

Oh, interesting!  I was looking at symptoms of Broca's Aphasia:  the ability to comprehend language but an inability to communicate.

https://www.healthline.com/health/brocas-aphasia 

I've also wondered if the humming was a form of synesthesia, the jumbling of the senses relating to space and time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

The humming also puts me in mind of the humming you can sometimes hear in hydro lines.  Something that could reflect both Hodor's fear of electrical storms and a power connection between Bran and Hodor.  Not that Hodor's connection to Bran is electrical but that a power surge of the type that Martin refers to could be like a lightening strike.

 

. 

[LynnS]

On 10/30/2020 at 4:58 PM, Frey family reunion said:

@LynnS

When I quoted the World Book and Maester Fomas' theory on the Others, in a text titled Lies of the Ancients, I decided to do a google search of Fomas.  What it led me to was Kurt Voggegut's book Cat's Cradle. 

Vonnegut creates a nonesense religion called Bokononism for his book.  In the religion a "foma" is a harmless lie told over generations so that it becomes commonly believed.  Interestingly enough in Cat's Cradle, a scientist creates a crystal called ice-9 which ends up causing the entire world to freeze over.  The survivors have to live underground in caves waiting for the world to thaw out.  

As for a character or characters becoming aware of the future and past events at once and using this power to manipulate human history for a specific outcome, I think we should check out another Vonnegut book, the Sirens of Titan.

 

I've started reading Sirens on Titan and looking at LitNotes:

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-sirens-of-titan

Have you read this book?

[LynnS]

Earworm also comes to mind:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

Quote

An earworm, sometimes known as a brainworm,[1] sticky music, stuck song syndrome,[2] or Involuntary Musical Imagery (IMI),[3] is a catchy piece of music that continually repeats through a person's mind after it is no longer playing.[4] Phrases used to describe an earworm include "musical imagery repetition" and "involuntary musical imagery".[1][5][6]

The word earworm is a calque from the German Ohrwurm, which has had this sense since the mid-20th century.[7][8] The earliest[citation needed] known English usage is in Desmond Bagley's 1978 novel Flyaway, where the author points out the German origin of his coinage.[9]

Researchers who have studied and written about the phenomenon include Theodor Reik,[10] Sean Bennett,[11] Oliver Sacks,[1] Daniel Levitin,[12] James Kellaris,[13] Philip Beaman,[14] Vicky Williamson,[15] Diana Deutsch,[16] and, in a more theoretical perspective, Peter Szendy.[17] The phenomenon should not be confused with palinacousis, a rare medical condition caused by damage to the temporal lobe of the brain that results in auditory hallucinations.[18]

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseveration

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I've started reading Sirens on Titan and looking at LitNotes:

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-sirens-of-titan

Have you read this book?

No not yet, I have to finish Cat’s Cradle first.  Another interesting tidbit in Cat’s Cradle, is the scientist who invented ice-9 had 3 children, two boys and a girl.  The youngest boy was born a dwarf who’s birth resulted in the death of the scientist’s wife.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No not yet, I have to finish Cat’s Cradle first.  Another interesting tidbit in Cat’s Cradle, is the scientist who invented ice-9 had 3 children, two boys and a girl.  The youngest boy was born a dwarf who’s birth resulted in the death of the scientist’s wife.

OK I won't spoil Sirens of Titan.  It's 300 pages, so not a long read.  It's pretty clear to me that Martin has delved into Vonnegut's body of work. 

[Black Crow]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:23 PM, LynnS said:

The situation with Hodor as explained by Martin isn't something I would not have caught onto and the show's version of this seemed so hokey and incredulous.  It's as though they didn't quite understand what he was saying and couldn't convey what Martin was saying visually.  Although they did make the point that it's Bran in crisis in the future causing an effect in the past.  I think that Hodor is impacted because he shares a soul with Bran in a sense; or their souls are bonded by Bran's warging of Hodor. When Bran becomes tree and time no longer constrains him, Hodor is affected in the past.  

This seems pretty convincing, and moving sideways has. potentially, interesting implications anent the outcome.

A big limitation on the Mummers' version was the inability to depict skinchanging properly, if at  all. To a degree therefore the Mummer's version of the Hodor episode was a means of inserting that particular "reveal", but in terms of the real story its very problematic.

In the first place the Mummer's version relies on an intervention by a character, the Night's King, who does not exist in the book, but yet invades the cave and forces a flight by way of a back door

But yet, if the Hodor episode actually occurred when the Scooby Gang were ambushed on the way into the cave, then we return to the situation depicted in ADWD and still leaves a path open to what we've discussed anent a Bran outcome compatible with the Mabingion and what GRRM has said anent Bran's ultimate fate. 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

This seems pretty convincing, and moving sideways has. potentially, interesting implications anent the outcome.

I find it difficult to come at the matter in a more direct fashion, there are so many holes.  Coming at it sideways may fill in  some of the missing pieces.  Though I am surprised that more people haven't picked up on the reveal about Martin experimenting with time and causality.  It seems to me that he has been thinking about it since GoT and holding the cards close to his chest.  I'm surprised by what I am reading in Sirens of Titan.  He has certainly taken some aspects of this book and remodeled them.

I'm not even sure if Martin has ever mentioned Kurt Vonnegut and I wonder why.  But he did stick in a reference to Foma in the World Book which Frey Family Reunion has so cleverly uncovered.  It's the tiniest detail and if Martin is interested in time travel, he would certainly consult Vonnegut's work. 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

what GRRM has said anent Bran's ultimate fate. 

What did he say about Bran's outcome?  I don't remember,  Were there supposedly two other reveals depicted in the show?

[Black Crow]

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What did he say about Bran's outcome?  I don't remember,  Were there supposedly two other reveals depicted in the show?

I don't recall the detail but there was a suggestion that Bran may ultimately become king of Westeros. As it happens I think so too - but not in the simplistic manner depicted in the Mummers' version. I have been arguing for a long time that he will mirror Bran of the Mabinogion and that his head will watch over Westeros from the cave under the white hill.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't recall the detail but there was a suggestion that Bran may ultimately become king of Westeros. As it happens I think so too - but not in the simplistic manner depicted in the Mummers' version. I have been arguing for a long time that he will mirror Bran of the Mabinogion and that his head will watch over Westeros from the cave under the white hill.

I don't see Bran leaving either.  I think the weirwood paste changes him physically and psychically.  I have gone down tinfoil road, wondering what would happen if Bran left in Hodor to take the Scooby gang to safety and if that opens a window for something else to take his seat on the throne.  The ultimate battle would be one of heart mind and soul.  That's stretching it I suppose. 

I'm thinking of Frey Family Reunion's idea that Jon's body will be raised while his soul occupies Ghost.  A broken sword or sword without a hilt.  How will he reclaim his body?

 

[LynnS]

This passage is interesting.  Arya takes on an aspect of the CoTF:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya X

She slashed at birch leaves till the splintery point of the broken broomstick was green and sticky. "Ser Gregor," she breathed. "Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling." She spun and leapt and balanced on the balls of her feet, darting this way and that, knocking pinecones flying. "The Tickler," she called out one time, "the Hound," the next. "Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." The bole of an oak loomed before her, and she lunged to drive her point through it, grunting "Joffrey, Joffrey, Joffrey." Her arms and legs were dappled by sunlight and the shadows of leaves. A sheen of sweat covered her skin by the time she paused. The heel of her right foot was bloody where she'd skinned it, so she stood one-legged before the heart tree and raised her sword in salute. "Valar morghulis," she told the old gods of the north. She liked how the words sounded when she said them.

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried. Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

Interesting because Bran also mistakes Leaf for Arya when he fist sees her.

The second part about flying up to the moon and seeing for herself is also interesting because this is what happens with Bran in his coma dream.  I wonder if the Kindly Old Man will take Arya flying at some point. 

Or if Bran will show her how to fly:

Quote

 Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

We know that tree-Bran can talk to Jon in his wolf dreams.  I suspect he can do the same with Arya and Rickon.  Bran touches Jon's third eye through Ghost.  Does this create a bond of some sort that affects their experience of time?

Is Arya watching for herself:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

"What are you doing?" he shrieked.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, "He's awake, he's awake, he's awake."

Why a shrill scream of fear?  Is it because the veil is being ripped away and the identity of the crow is about to be revealed?

[Black Crow]

I'm very sympathetic to these ideas because I still see this story in terms of the Starks and the old allegiances, rather than the Targaryen Succession