Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't see Bran leaving either.  I think the weirwood paste changes him physically and psychically.  I have gone down tinfoil road, wondering what would happen if Bran left in Hodor to take the Scooby gang to safety and if that opens a window for something else to take his seat on the throne.  The ultimate battle would be one of heart mind and soul.  That's stretching it I suppose. 

I'm thinking of Frey Family Reunion's idea that Jon's body will be raised while his soul occupies Ghost.  A broken sword or sword without a hilt.  How will he reclaim his body?

 

All depends doesn't it? If, as everybody assumes, he goes into Ghost, then I would expect third party intervention to transfer his soul from Ghost back into his own dead body, in which case we will have another Coldhands.

Alternatively, if he doesn't go into Ghost then he'll have to make his own body from snow and ice.

Both of these options I see as feasible and either would explain a lot of what's going on

The Mummer's guilt-free total resurrection by Fire would, I think, be a total abegnation of the story.

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not even sure if Martin has ever mentioned Kurt Vonnegut and I wonder why.

I found one reference.  GRRM talked fondly about a literature professor he had in High School who received blowback from the administration for having his class read Vonnegut's  Slaughter House Five.  Which apparently was considered by the administration more akin to pulp sci fi than legitimate literature.

ETA: And you have to bear in mind that GRRM was completely emmersed in the sci-fi and comic fandom.  Back in the 60's outside of Lord of the Rings, Sci-Fi was a much bigger genre than fantasy, and the crowd that George ran with, including George himself, was completely devoted to Sci Fi.  

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm very sympathetic to these ideas because I still see this story in terms of the Starks and the old allegiances, rather than the Targaryen Succession

I don't really see this as which dragon  will end up on the throne either.  I don't think there will be a throne at the end of all things.  Likewise folding everything into RLJ... because prophecy.  I think this creates blind spots.  The story of the KotLT is Howland's story.  Lyanna's story is a sad tale for another time. Howland's story is about Bran, the Laughing Tree and ultimately, it leads to the tower of Joy where Howland must intervene to save Ned's life, so Bran will be born.  It's Arthur Dayne who pays for the death that is stolen. 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I found one reference.  GRRM talked fondly about a literature professor he had in High School who received blowback from the administration for having his class read Vonnegut's  Slaughter House Five.  Which apparently was considered by the administration more akin to pulp sci fi than legitimate literature.

Hah, there is a time traveller in that one too.

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't really see this as which dragon  will end up on the throne either.  I don't think there will be a throne at the end of all things.  Likewise folding everything into RLJ... because prophecy.  I think this creates blind spots.  The story of the KotLT is Howland's story.  Lyanna's story is a sad tale for another time. Howland's story is about Bran, the Laughing Tree and ultimately, it leads to the tower of Joy where Howland must intervene to save Ned's life, so Bran will be born.  It's Arthur Dayne who pays for the death that is stolen. 

I agree.  If you look closely at Jon's story conflict you realize that it really does center on his desire for Winterfell vs his Oath he took to the Night's Watch, which doesn't leave much room for the Iron Throne.  Just like Dany's story conflict seems to center on her quest to get her "birthright" the Iron Throne, vs her longing for home and a family.

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

All depends doesn't it? If, as everybody assumes, he goes into Ghost, then I would expect third party intervention to transfer his soul from Ghost back into his own dead body, in which case we will have another Coldhands.

I am partial to this one:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

 

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree.  If you look closely at Jon's story conflict you realize that it really does center on his desire for Winterfell vs his Oath he took to the Night's Watch, which doesn't leave much room for the Iron Throne.  Just like Dany's story conflict seems to center on her quest to get her "birthright" the Iron Throne, vs her longing for home and a family.

I can hear Martin in conversation with Tolkien right now:

Quote

Jesus R,R, Christ! What do you mean "the return of the king?"  That's not how it happens!  Yes, I'll clean up the Shire, but it's going to be a mess!

- A Dream of Spring - Tyrion, Famous Last Words

 

[LynnS]

52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I found one reference.  GRRM talked fondly about a literature professor he had in High School who received blowback from the administration for having his class read Vonnegut's  Slaughter House Five.  Which apparently was considered by the administration more akin to pulp sci fi than legitimate literature.

ETA: And you have to bear in mind that GRRM was completely emmersed in the sci-fi and comic fandom.  Back in the 60's outside of Lord of the Rings, Sci-Fi was a much bigger genre than fantasy, and the crowd that George ran with, including George himself, was completely devoted to Sci Fi.  

Being of a certain age, I'm more steeped in sci-fi than fantasy myself.  If only I had kept all those first edition comics books....  

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Being of a certain age, I'm more steeped in sci-fi than fantasy myself.  If only I had kept all those first edition comics books....  

I've always been more of a fantasy guy than a sci-fi guy myself.  I'm embarassed to say, that I've only gotten about halfway through Dune, and I haven't yet had the impetus to pick it back up.

But generally speaking I have no problem getting through giant epic fantasy series that dwarf Dune in size.

[LynnS]

Well I'm bound to ruffle some feathers today.  Going back to the Knight of the Laughing Tree,  I believe this to be Howland Reed for reasons that I have already stated.  This is his story and his POV given to us by Meera.   If you have looked at the Lore and Legends youtube, a few of these stories are told from multiple viewpoints of POV's

So what is Rhaegar's POV concerning Lyanna? Ned describes Rhaegar as giving Lyanna the Queen of Beauty's Laurel.  He omits the word love.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

 So not the queen of love and beauty.  In Ned's mind Rhaegar was not in love with Lyanna.

From Barristan's POV, the only reason to bestow the crown is if you are secretly in love with someone. He indulges his fantasy, that if you are the hero of the day; you get the woman you want.

In Kevan Lannister's view; the crown was given because of Lyanna's beauty and that if Cersei had been there, Rhaegar would never have looked twice at Lyanna.  EDIT: Kevan thinks it's about lust. 

So  Rhaegar did a double-take, why?  I think it's because he recognized something about Lyanna.  For someone who was taken up with prophecy, it seems to me that he would seek out the wood's witch to learn more and that person is the ghost of high heart.  His solo trips to Summerhall could be where he met her and traded songs for dreams.  

The song she always wants is Jenny's Song and I suspect this is the sad song that Rhaegar played that made the maiden's cry.

Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.    Who does Jenny fall in love with?  The Prince of Dragonflies, who was once a Mystery Knight.  Where do you find dragonflies?  In swamps and bogs.

Rhaegar may be comparing Lyanna to Jenny and a tragic ending.  This may be why he gives her flowers for her hair. To the Starks it's an insult.  To everyone else, it's a repudiation of Elia.

At the end of the story, Bran asks if the Mystery Knight got the princess.  Meera tells him it's a sad tale for another time.

[LynnS]

@Melifeather @Frey family reunion Can we go back to shadow babies?  And the idea that when the soul leaves the body a shadow soul is left behind in the body?  Can we discuss thralls.  Are the ice wights thralls?   Are they controlled by a "dreamer"  in the sense that Stannis controls his shadow in a dream? 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well I'm bound to ruffle some feathers today.  Going back to the Knight of the Laughing Tree,  I believe this to be Howland Reed for reasons that I have already stated.  This is his story and his POV given to us by Meera.   If you have looked at the Lore and Legends youtube, a few of these stories are told from multiple viewpoints of POV's

So what is Rhaegar's POV concerning Lyanna? Ned describes Rhaegar as giving Lyanna the Queen of Beauty's Laurel.  He omits the word love.

 So not the queen of love and beauty.  In Ned's mind Rhaegar was not in love with Lyanna.

From Barristan's POV, the only reason to bestow the crown is if you are secretly in love with someone. He indulges his fantasy, that if you are the hero of the day; you get the woman you want.

In Kevan Lannister's view; the crown was given because of Lyanna's beauty and that if Cersei had been there, Rhaegar would never have looked twice at Lyanna.  EDIT: Kevan thinks it's about lust. 

So  Rhaegar did a double-take, why?  I think it's because he recognized something about Lyanna.  For someone who was taken up with prophecy, it seems to me that he would seek out the wood's witch to learn more and that person is the ghost of high heart.  His solo trips to Summerhall could be where he met her and traded songs for dreams.  

The song she always wants is Jenny's Song and I suspect this is the sad song that Rhaegar played that made the maiden's cry.

Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.    Who does Jenny fall in love with?  The Prince of Dragonflies, who was once a Mystery Knight.  Where do you find dragonflies?  In swamps and bogs.

Rhaegar may be comparing Lyanna to Jenny and a tragic ending.  This may be why he gives her flowers for her hair. To the Starks it's an insult.  To everyone else, it's a repudiation of Elia.

At the end of the story, Bran asks if the Mystery Knight got the princess.  Meera tells him it's a sad tale for another time.

I had to reread this post, because the first time around I thought you were saying Lyanna liked the song about Jenny. The second time I saw that you meant the woods witch liked the song!

I agree with you that the KofLT was Howland. To me its important that it is him otherwise he looks like a weakling or a wimp. How old was Lyanna at the tourney?  14? Howland was supposed to be old enough to leave home, so why would he need a young girl to fight in his place? I can see having her assist him by, perhaps skinchanging the horse. Contrary to this is when Hodor's voice was described as "booming". It occurred when Bran was skinchanging him even though Bran's voice isn't noted as "booming". Maybe when the skinchanger forces the host to talk the voice takes on a "booming" quality?

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

@Melifeather @Frey family reunion Can we go back to shadow babies?  And the idea that when the soul leaves the body a shadow soul is left behind in the body?  Can we discuss thralls.  Are the ice wights thralls?   Are they controlled by a "dreamer"  in the sense that Stannis controls his shadow in a dream? 

Certainly! What aspects of these topics did you want to address, because I had already touched on why I thought Coldhands, Beric, and Catelyn - maybe even Melisandre - might all be "thralls" of whomever reanimated them.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

It occurred when Bran was skinchanging him even though Bran's voice isn't noted as "booming". Maybe when the skinchanger forces the host to talk the voice takes on a "booming" quality?

When he skinchanges Hodor at the entrance to the cave; he is seven feet of rage.  I liken the experience with Hodor to be similar to Howland, incluidng the booming or bellowing voice. 

Quote

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away, bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back. "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down. Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR!" he bellowed

.

bellow

[ˈbelō]

VERB

bellowing (present participle)

(of a person or animal) emit a deep loud roar, typically in pain or anger.

"he bellowed in agony" · 

synonyms:

blare · boom · roar · thunder · pump · shriek · screech

shout something with a deep loud roar.

"he bellowed out the order" · 

[more]

synonyms:

roar · shout · bawl · thunder · trumpet · boom · bark · bay · yawp · yell · yelp · shriek · howl · scream · screech · call · cry · cry out · sing out · whoop · wail · caterwaul · raise one's voice · holler · vociferate · ululate

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Certainly! What aspects of these topics did you want to address, because I had already touched on why I thought Coldhands, Beric, and Catelyn - maybe even Melisandre - might all be "thralls" of whomever reanimated them.

Sorry if you've already covered it:  but can the soul be torn into two parts?  The light and the dark? Can you link the post, so I can read it again?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

When he skinchanges Hodor at the entrance to the cave; he is seven feet of rage.  I liken the experience with Hodor to be similar to Howland, incluidng the booming or bellowing voice. 

.

bellow

[ˈbelō]

VERB

bellowing (present participle)

(of a person or animal) emit a deep loud roar, typically in pain or anger.

"he bellowed in agony" · 

synonyms:

blare · boom · roar · thunder · pump · shriek · screech

shout something with a deep loud roar.

"he bellowed out the order" · 

[more]

synonyms:

roar · shout · bawl · thunder · trumpet · boom · bark · bay · yawp · yell · yelp · shriek · howl · scream · screech · call · cry · cry out · sing out · whoop · wail · caterwaul · raise one's voice · holler · vociferate · ululate

Sorry if you've already covered it:  but can the soul be torn into two parts?  The light and the dark? Can you link the post, so I can read it again?

Bran was talking through Hodor so he said what Hodor normally says, "HODOR!" except really loud. He roared in fury, so I'm thinking the booming voice that came through the KofLT was because the host was being skinchanged in that moment. The vocal chords were Hodor's (weren't they?) so logically the booming voice of the KofLT were projected with the host's vocal chords.

The theory about the thralls came from the discussion on "living flame". The Grey King killed Nagga before making her "living flame" his "thrall". Thoros breathed fire into Beric's mouth and he rose from the dead. I theorize that since Thoros raised Beric from the dead he is not actually a living human. What Beric became was a "living flame". He was only a shadow of his real self. The secondary part of the theory was wondering if Beric was actually Thoros's thrall? Maybe not consciously, but is it not possible that Beric carried out what Thoros already desired?

previous posts regarding thralls:

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Melifeather @Frey family reunion Can we go back to shadow babies?  And the idea that when the soul leaves the body a shadow soul is left behind in the body?  Can we discuss thralls.  Are the ice wights thralls?   Are they controlled by a "dreamer"  in the sense that Stannis controls his shadow in a dream? 

I don’t think that Stannis’ soul left his body per se.  I think a part of his soul (a part of his shadow self) was used to create the shadow assassin.  And presumably Stannis had some sort of subconscious link that remained with it, which is why he experienced the events in a dream.  

As for the White Walkers, I’m not sure. They seem to have more “personality” than the shadow assassins, I guess.  And they don’t seem to be thralls, certainly not in the sense of the wights.  

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think that Stannis’ soul left his body per se.  I think a part of his soul (a part of his shadow self) was used to create the shadow assassin.  And presumably Stannis had some sort of subconscious link that remained with it, which is why he experienced the events in a dream.  

As for the White Walkers, I’m not sure. They seem to have more “personality” than the shadow assassins, I guess.  And they don’t seem to be thralls, certainly not in the sense of the wights.  

Absolutely. Our Mel steals [consumes?] a bit of Stannis' soul to make her very temporary shadow-baby and Stannis is weakened thereby.

Conversely the Walkers are more substantial and clearly exercise free will- they speak to each other for a start

And once again, unlike the wights "they are not dead", although their corporeal bodies may have died long ago.

[LynnS]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:57 AM, Melifeather said:

Could "living flame" just simply mean "life-force"? I'm wondering if GRRM's choice of wording is intended to lead us to the conclusion that Nagga was a dragon when that might not be the case - at least its too simplistic as an interpretation. Damphair called her a sea-dragon, and that it was the Grey King that had slain her. He also stated that the Grey King had made Nagga's "living flame" his "thrall".

OK! Now I remember why the legend is so confusing.

On 10/28/2020 at 8:57 AM, Melifeather said:

From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.

The other reference to robes of seaweed is in the prologue to CoK:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Patchface rang his bells. "It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Shireen giggled. "I should like a gown of silver seaweed."

"Under the sea, it snows up," said the fool, "and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

Outside, beneath the snoring of his drowned men and the keening of the wind, he could hear the pounding of the waves, the hammer of his god calling him to battle. Aeron crept from his little shelter into the chill of the night. Naked he stood, pale and gaunt and tall, and naked he walked into the black salt sea. The water was icy cold, yet he did not flinch from his god's caress. A wave smashed against his chest, staggering him. The next broke over his head. He could taste the salt on his lips and feel the god around him, and his ears rang with the glory of his song. Nine sons were born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, and I was the least of them, as weak and frightened as a girl. But no longer. That man is drowned, and the god has made me strong. The cold salt sea surrounded him, embraced him, reached down through his weak man's flesh and touched his bones. Bones, he thought. The bones of the soul. Balon's bones, and Urri's. The truth is in our bones, for flesh decays and bone endures. And on the hill of Nagga, the bones of the Grey King's Hall . . .

Quote

The mythological serpent race that took form as cobras often can be found in Hindu iconography. The nāgas are described as the powerful, splendid, wonderful and proud semidivine race that can assume their physical form either as human, partial human-serpent or the whole serpent. Their domain is in the enchanted underworld, the underground realm filled with gems, gold and other earthly treasures called Naga-loka or Patala-loka. They are also often associated with bodies of waters — including rivers, lakes, seas, and wells 

So we are talking about the underground realm.  Was Nagga originally a greenseer who could skinchange a sea dragon?

Was the grey king also a skinchanger who overthrows the weirwood throne and takes Nagga's place?  Stealing her living flame?

Who are the merwives who weave gowns of silver seaweed? How does the grey king marry a mermaid?

Nagga's bones are the bones of the soul.  What does that mean?

ETA:  If the grey king went to war with the storm gods, how does this take place?  Is this a battle within the weirnet?

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think that Stannis’ soul left his body per se.  I think a part of his soul (a part of his shadow self) was used to create the shadow assassin.  And presumably Stannis had some sort of subconscious link that remained with it, which is why he experienced the events in a dream.   

This sounds right to me.  I'd also say that Melisandre's supply of Stannis's shadow soul is limited and not something he can replenish. He is being slowly consumed.

I also think she has to supply something of her own life force, whatever that may be.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

I think this is also the case with Thoros and Beric.  When Thoros give Beric the kiss of fire, he draws out some of Beric's shadow soul from his bones but also uses some of his own life force.  Which Thoros can't replenish and I think the reason why he says that raising Beric for a seventh time would be the end of both of them.  If the bones remember and the shadow soul resides in the bones;  then repeatedly raising Beric would consume his memories.

The difference between Thoros and Melisandre is that he has a body to house the shadow soul he raises.  I think the other difference is that Melisandre can replenish her life force through her ruby and fiery sacrifices,

Eventually fire consumes:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

Benerro's high voice carried well. Tall and thin, he had a drawn face and skin white as milk. Flames had been tattooed across his cheeks and chin and shaven head to make a bright red mask that crackled about his eyes and coiled down and around his lipless mouth. "Is that a slave tattoo?" asked Tyrion.

The knight nodded. "The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there." He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple's doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. "The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple."

Fire knights. "And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?"

"One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out."

 

       

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

This sounds right to me.  I'd also say that Melisandre's supply of Stannis's shadow soul is limited and not something he can replenish. He is being slowly consumed.

I also think she has to supply something of her own life force, whatever that may be.

I think this is also the case with Thoros and Beric.  When Thoros give Beric the kiss of fire, he draws out some of Beric's shadow soul from his bones but also uses some of his own life force.  Which Thoros can't replenish and I think the reason why he says that raising Beric for a seventh time would be the end of both of them.  If the bones remember and the shadow soul resides in the bones;  then repeatedly raising Beric would consume his memories.

The difference between Thoros and Melisandre is that he has a body to house the shadow soul he raises.  I think the other difference is that Melisandre can replenish her life force through her ruby and fiery sacrifices,

Eventually fire consumes:

       

I know what you're trying to get at, but it's not quite the same. Beric is a red priest although he doesn't say if he's been transformed in any way by fire. Melisandre is a red priestess who has been transformed by fire. The magic that each has been working seem mirrored opposites to each other. Melisandre drew two shadows from Stannis and Stannis grew weaker. Perhaps Melisandre's internal flame protected her from becoming weaker? Thoros on the other hand seems to be using his own life force to raise Beric, and as a result HE became weaker. Thoros doesn't have a protective inner fire and he hasn't drawn any shadows from any living being other than himself. Part of Thoros must have went inside Beric even though Beric had his own memories, and when Beric transferred his remaining flame into Catelyn, a part of Thoros and Beric must be in Lady Stoneheart.

 

[Black Crow]

This is possible, but whether or not the souls are "mingled" or single, we're still talking about a part of a soul, while the White Walkers are made of whole cloth