Hoster was a really awful person

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So we may think about him as a kind and witty fatherly figure, but that's because that's how Cat sees him. But let's think objectively. He's a veeery ambitious person, located at the center of the anti Targ conspiracy pre Rebellion, with only Rickard and his maester having a more central position. To facilitate that he goes all in trying to get marriages and later even blackmails Jon Arryn so he can marry Lysa. His relation with Brynden is also awful, because he just couldn't accept his brother not wanting to marry. And then of course there's the moon tea. All in all, Hoster manages to break all 3 of the Tully words/principles

- Family. Yeah being estranged from your brother for 30 years because he would not marry as well as murdering your own unborn grandkid is the mark of a man who really loves his family.

- Duty. Actively partaking in a conspiracy against his own king and joining a rebellion not to depose a mad King but a whole dynasty just so you can get better marriages sure doesn't seem particularly dutiful.

- Honor. Both of the previous 2 points come again for this one. One should also mention that in the case of the moon tea, while it is unclear if Lysa took it through coercion, force or trickery, one thing is clear, honor was not part of that.

So all in all a pretty shady, ambitious individual. What do you think?

[Loose Bolt]

I agree that Hoster was not very nice person.

But could he really stayed loyal to Iron Throne when Aerys II had executed a man who was engaged to his daughter? Or it would have been very likely that paranoid king would have started to suspect his loyalty. So I suspect that Hoster either became a rebel or he would have found himself as a traitor anyway.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I agree that Hoster was not very nice person.

But could he really stayed loyal to Iron Throne when Aerys II had executed a man who was engaged to his daughter? Or it would have been very likely that paranoid king would have started to suspect his loyalty. So I suspect that Hoster either became a rebel or he would have found himself as a traitor anyway.

Again, things did not begin when Brandon and Rickard were executed.

[The Young Maester]

You could say that he did his duty to the family by making Lysa drink the moon tea. Letting her have a lowborn bastard wouldve been disastrous for the family. Although it was a cruel thing to do to your own daughter. It kinda serves the purpose of family (for the fantasy’s perspective).

I agree with him not being dutiful. He didnt do his duty to the Targaryen dynasty. But let’s not forget the war didn’t start with the purpose of usurping the throne. Everyone was high on emotions and they just wanted to kill the mad king and bring rhaegar to justice. Whoever sat the throne afterwards didn’t come to mind till later. I won’t presume to know what went through hosters mind but I doubt he thought they were going to outright usurp the targaryens. But that doesn’t make him any less guilty because I’m sure he would’ve supported the rebels even if Robert had proclaimed that he will take the throne after summerhall.

Honour can come in different ways. In a way he preserved the honour of his house and his daughter by getting rid of the child and banishing Baelish. People seem to think that an honourable man is someone who’s kind hearted. A hard and ruthless man can also be considered honourable. But I will also say that Hoster has no honour.

Although I agree that hoster outright rebelling is what tarnished his honour.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He's a veeery ambitious person, located at the center of the anti Targ conspiracy pre Rebellion, with only Rickard and his maester having a more central position.

100% disagree that he was at the center of this so-called anti Targ conspiracy and that any of the people named were planning some coup against the Targs. Hoster is still looking to bolster his family ties well after the rebellion when he has the genius idea of marrying Edmure to Arianne. I think he's doing it to try and preserve a balance of power. I also wrote about it here.

Hoster Tully is exactly like Walder Frey. He leveraged his loyalty to the rebels through marriage. House Frey's coming into the War of the Five Kings on the Stark side is a copy/paste of Hoster entering Robert's Rebellion on the side of Stark, Arryn and Baratheon. If Jon Connington had gone to him first and accepted his terms, then we might have a very different story altogether. 

So Hoster calling Walder Frey "The Late Lord Walder" makes him a complete hypocrite because his ass might have ended up sitting out the rebellion like the Freys did if he hadn't been approached by either faction. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

11 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

18 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I agree that Hoster was not very nice person.

But could he really stayed loyal to Iron Throne when Aerys II had executed a man who was engaged to his daughter? Or it would have been very likely that paranoid king would have started to suspect his loyalty. So I suspect that Hoster either became a rebel or he would have found himself as a traitor anyway.

Again, things did not begin when Brandon and Rickard were executed.

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

You could say that he did his duty to the family by making Lysa drink the moon tea. Letting her have a lowborn bastard wouldve been disastrous for the family. Although it was a cruel thing to do to your own daughter. It kinda serves the purpose of family (for the fantasy’s perspective).

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Honour can come in different ways. In a way he preserved the honour of his house and his daughter by getting rid of the child and banishing Baelish. People seem to think that an honourable man is someone who’s kind hearted. A hard and ruthless man can also be considered honourable. But I will also say that Hoster has no honour.

Although I agree that hoster outright rebelling is what tarnished his honour.

There was no honor in the moon tea thing, especially that given the timelines it was a pretty late term abortion (I mean infanticide/forced abortion is awful no matter what, but late term it's particularly horrible). He did it out of his own ambition so he can get a good marriage at that moment cause he had leverage on Jon Arryn (otherwise he might have allowed the baby to be born and raised elsewhere) and all that (the marriage and the forced abortion) fucked Lysa up for life. And leaving aside just how awful it was, there is no way Lysa willingly did it. It was coercion, use of force or trickery, either one completely dishonorable against a pregnant woman.

[The Young Maester]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There was no honor in the moon tea thing, especially that given the timelines it was a pretty late term abortion (I mean infanticide/forced abortion is awful no matter what, but late term it's particularly horrible). He did it out of his own ambition so he can get a good marriage at that moment cause he had leverage on Jon Arryn (otherwise he might have allowed the baby to be born and raised elsewhere) and all that (the marriage and the forced abortion) fucked Lysa up for life. And leaving aside just how awful it was, there is no way Lysa willingly did it. It was coercion, use of force or trickery, either one completely dishonorable against a pregnant woman.

It’s certainly a cruel thing to do I’ll be honest. Especially considering he tricked her into it. It would’ve been better if he told her that she should drink the tea and get rid of the child.

But it did preserve both lysas and house Tully’s honour. However whether it was an honourable thing to do in such a way, it’s debatable. Trickery and deceit isn’t honourable. So the action hoster took was very dishonourable, however the outcome did preserve the houses honour. So for me it’s sort of middle ground in a way.

[kissdbyfire]

28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

100% disagree that he was at the center of this so-called anti Targ conspiracy and that any of the people named were planning some coup against the Targs.

Wholeheartedly agree. And doubly so on the alleged “conspiracy”.

28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Hoster is still looking to bolster his family ties well after the rebellion when he has the genius idea of marrying Edmure to Arianne. I think he's doing it to try and preserve a balance of power. I also wrote about it here.

Hoster Tully is exactly like Walder Frey. He leveraged his loyalty to the rebels through marriage. House Frey's coming into the War of the Five Kings on the Stark side is a copy/paste of Hoster entering Robert's Rebellion on the side of Stark, Arryn and Baratheon. If Jon Connington had gone to him first and accepted his terms, then we might have a very different story altogether. 
 

Exactly, again, agree completely.

 

28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So Hoster calling Walder Frey "The Late Lord Walder" makes him a complete hypocrite because his ass might have ended up sitting out the rebellion like the Freys did if he hadn't been approached by either faction. 

He is a total hypocrite. And while all the Tullys like to dismiss Edmure, he is the one who actually acts more honourably by trying to protect the small folk. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

He is a total hypocrite. And while all the Tullys like to dismiss Edmure, he is the one who actually acts more honourably by trying to protect the small folk. 

It's a little unfortunate that we don't have more details about how the river lords feel about House Tully, because House Tully is a whole lot like House Tyrell. The Tullys were kings of nothing, they were always someone's vassal and were given their titles by Aegon the Conqueror, same as the Tyrells (upjumped stewards). They have a similar problem to that of the Tyrells even though the point of contention in the Reach has to do with who the real heirs of the Gardeners are. I think the similarities between the two Houses being essentially upjumped is a reason why Hoster Tully is going after all these marriages. 

And Edmure is the best of that the Tullys have. He cares about the land and his smallfolk in a way most of the noble class doesn't. That makes him better than like 95% of the characters.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And Edmure is the best of that the Tullys have. He cares about the land and his smallfolk in a way most of the noble class doesn't. That makes him better than like 95% of the characters.

Yup. He's always disregarded by the fans, not to mention what the abomination did to him, but he's a pretty good lord, who actually cares about his people. And his leadership at the Fords was actually pretty good. I never got why people disregard him.

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's a little unfortunate that we don't have more details about how the river lords feel about House Tully, because House Tully is a whole lot like House Tyrell. The Tullys were kings of nothing, they were always someone's vassal and were given their titles by Aegon the Conqueror, same as the Tyrells (upjumped stewards). They have a similar problem to that of the Tyrells even though the point of contention in the Reach has to do with who the real heirs of the Gardeners are. I think the similarities between the two Houses being essentially upjumped is a reason why Hoster Tully is going after all these marriages. 

And Edmure is the best of that the Tullys have. He cares about the land and his smallfolk in a way most of the noble class doesn't. That makes him better than like 95% of the characters.

But edmure doesn’t just care about the small folk he also most importantly made friends amongst the nobles of prominent houses in the riverlands. Plus his kind and friendly nature definitely helped the Tullys be a respected house during agot. 

Edmure shouldve wedded a granddaughter of Stevron Frey. If both Walder and hoster died, edmure would be the most powerful lord the riverlands have ever had after aegons conquest. The Frey’s would be more loyal to edmure with stevron as lord and a Frey as lady of riverrun.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Edmure shouldve wedded a granddaughter of Stevron Frey. If both Walder and hoster died, edmure would be the most powerful lord the riverlands have ever had after aegons conquest. The Frey’s would be more loyal to edmure with stevron as lord and a Frey as lady of riverrun.

Does he have any? I don't recall him having any grandsons. Isn't it just Edwyn, Black Walder and Petyr?

[The Young Maester]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Does he have any? I don't recall him having any grandsons. Isn't it just Edwyn, Black Walder and Petyr?

If I seem to remember. Fair Walda is his granddaughter. I’ll have to check the Frey family tree.

[The Young Maester]

@Alyn OakenfistJust checked it. Fair walda is stevrons granddaughter through his third wife (a waynwood). 

Her father is Walton Frey and her mother is a hardyng. Which makes her a very strong match for any lord. Close ties to the vale by three generation seeing as stevron is also the son of a waynwood. 

I just remembered why I considered fair walda the best option to marry for both robb and edmure. She is the closest in line to the main Frey branch and she also has strong waynwood blood.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

@Alyn OakenfistJust checked it. Fair walda is stevrons granddaughter through his third wife (a waynwood). 

Her father is Walton Frey and her mother is a hardyng. Which makes her a very strong match for any lord. Close ties to the vale by three generation seeing as stevron is also the son of a waynwood. 

I just remembered why I considered fair walda the best option to marry for both robb and edmure. She is the closest in line to the main Frey branch and she also has strong waynwood blood.

How on Earth did GRRM create so many of them? I think they're more Freys in the story then all the members of the Great Houses combined.

Regardless, I guess she would be a good pick, as the alternatives would be a Blackwood or a Bracken (not a good idea as it would royally piss off the other), a Whent (seems as though there aren't any left) or a Mallister (again I don't think there are any ladies). And from the Freys it does seem as Fair Walda is the best as the closer you get to the main line the longer the alliance will last with them, at least until Raymun were to become Lord (in the theoretical scenario in which the war and Stonehart don't happen)

[The Young Maester]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How on Earth did GRRM create so many of them? I think they're more Freys in the story then all the members of the Great Houses combined.

Regardless, I guess she would be a good pick, as the alternatives would be a Blackwood or a Bracken (not a good idea as it would royally piss off the other), a Whent (seems as though there aren't any left) or a Mallister (again I don't think there are any ladies). And from the Freys it does seem as Fair Walda is the best as the closer you get to the main line the longer the alliance will last with them, at least until Raymun were to become Lord (in the theoretical scenario in which the war and Stonehart don't happen)

It doesn’t hurt having the Frey’s as allies. Good farming land, strong strategic position, and a large army with over 500 knights. Plus an army of Walders at your disposal. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, The Young Maester said:

Plus an army of Walders at your disposal. 

Ah yes the famous mercenaries, the Company of Walders

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

House Tully is a whole lot like House Tyrell. The Tullys were kings of nothing, they were always someone's vassal and were given their titles by Aegon the Conqueror, same as the Tyrells (upjumped stewards). They have a similar problem to that of the Tyrells even though the point of contention in the Reach has to do with who the real heirs of the Gardeners are.

That's a good comparison, I think, though I do see one important difference between them. The Tyrells were lords of nothing, stweards to the Gardeners like the Cassels to the Starks. They gained from the Targaryens land that was never theirs before the conquest. The Tully, on the other hand, always had their own land and were lords on their own right. Minor lords maybe, but lords all the same, and while the Tagaryens made them Lords Paramount, they never granted the Tullys more lands or holdings. To this day in 300 AC the Tullys have less land than some of their bannerman and can raise smaller armies. All the same, they seem respected: Catelyn speaks of her father settling disputes between Braken and Blackwoods, the same is touched upon a hundred years before in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Edmure seems well regarded by his friends who are all young-ish sons of important riverlands Houses. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's a good comparison, I think, though I do see one important difference between them. The Tyrells were lords of nothing, stweards to the Gardeners like the Cassels to the Starks. They gained from the Targaryens land that was never theirs before the conquest. The Tully, on the other hand, always had their own land and were lords on their own right. Minor lords maybe, but lords all the same, and while the Tagaryens made them Lords Paramount, they never granted the Tullys more lands or holdings. To this day in 300 AC the Tullys have less land than some of their bannerman and can raise smaller armies. All the same, they seem respected: Catelyn speaks of her father settling disputes between Braken and Blackwoods, the same is touched upon a hundred years before in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Edmure seems well regarded by his friends who are all young-ish sons of important riverlands Houses. 

To be fair, given the current day, the Reach seems way more unified, mainly because the Tyrells married smart. Their own second strongest house is well tied to the Tyrells through marriage, unlike the Tullys who don't even consider marring the Freys.

[The Young Maester]

5 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's a good comparison, I think, though I do see one important difference between them. The Tyrells were lords of nothing, stweards to the Gardeners like the Cassels to the Starks. They gained from the Targaryens land that was never theirs before the conquest. The Tully, on the other hand, always had their own land and were lords on their own right. Minor lords maybe, but lords all the same, and while the Tagaryens made them Lords Paramount, they never granted the Tullys more lands or holdings. To this day in 300 AC the Tullys have less land than some of their bannerman and can raise smaller armies. All the same, they seem respected: Catelyn speaks of her father settling disputes between Braken and Blackwoods, the same is touched upon a hundred years before in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Edmure seems well regarded by his friends who are all young-ish sons of important riverlands Houses. 

Also you don’t have a bunch of other houses breathing down your neck because they have a better claim to the lordship of the riverlands.

The tyrells are certainly on a tight spot.
How many reacher houses would help the tyrells if they were in the same position that the Tullys are atm?