Hoster was a really awful person

[Lady Dacey]

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To be fair, given the current day, the Reach seems way more unified, mainly because the Tyrells married smart. Their own second strongest house is well tied to the Tyrells through marriage, unlike the Tullys who don't even consider marring the Freys.

I feel like we know very little about the Reach. Much of the action in Clash and Storm happens in the riverlands, so we get a lot about those. Disregarding the Freys is clearly at least 'unwise', I'd call it a stupid move on Hoster's part. Walder Frey is not an easy lord to please, though... feeling slighted because your already aged and sick overlord didn't show to your seventh wedding seems rather harsh. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

17 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Also you don’t have a bunch of other houses breathing down your neck because they have a better claim to the lordship of the riverlands.

The tyrells are certainly on a tight spot.
How many reacher houses would help the tyrells if they were in the same position that the Tullys are atm?

Well let's see: The Hightowers, all of the Hightower vassals in an instant due to marriages, the Redwynes, both of the Fossoways, the Garlan branch of the family, all in all at least half the Reach, which is quite a lot

[The Young Maester]

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well let's see: The Hightowers, all of the Hightower vassals in an instant due to marriages, the Redwynes, both of the Fossoways, the Garlan branch of the family, all in all at least half the Reach, which is quite a lot

Fair enough.

But I can easily see Hightowers just attempting to take lordship of high garden for themselves. The redwynes not so much, but definitely the Fossoway seeing as they joined Stannis before renlys body was cold. 

But obviously that’s taking into account that they desire the seat of highgarden. However if someone already occupies its very likely they’ll help the tyrells. 

I don’t think redwynes, Fossoways, and all Hightower holdings would be half of the reach. More like a third.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I don’t think redwynes, Fossoways, and all Hightower holdings would be half of the reach. More like a third.

Consider all the Hightower vassal who are married into the Tyrells like the Beasburies or the Bulwers

[The Young Maester]

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Consider all the Hightower vassal who are married into the Tyrells like the Beasburies or the Bulwers

Yeah even taking them into account. It still is shy of half of the reach. Their still is loads of wealthy and powerful houses like Tarly, oakheart, Rowan, and can’t remember the others.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's a good comparison, I think, though I do see one important difference between them. The Tyrells were lords of nothing, stweards to the Gardeners like the Cassels to the Starks. They gained from the Targaryens land that was never theirs before the conquest. The Tully, on the other hand, always had their own land and were lords on their own right. Minor lords maybe, but lords all the same, and while the Tagaryens made them Lords Paramount, they never granted the Tullys more lands or holdings. To this day in 300 AC the Tullys have less land than some of their bannerman and can raise smaller armies. All the same, they seem respected: Catelyn speaks of her father settling disputes between Braken and Blackwoods, the same is touched upon a hundred years before in the Dunk and Egg novellas. Edmure seems well regarded by his friends who are all young-ish sons of important riverlands Houses. 

I very much agree with your distinction between Tyrells and Tullys (even their names are sort of similar). The larger point, though, imo at least, is that there is a power imbalance in the riverlands and it is skewed towards those who have bigger lands or someone who has married into 26 different Houses. I think that the Red Wedding is symptomatic of that. Edmure can be friends with a bunch of lordlings, it did not stop his family getting butchered by members of Houses Haigh (bannermen to the Freys), Goodbrook (we know that one of them took part in the RW), Vypren and perhaps more. These are Houses that are tied by marriage to Walder Frey and chose him, not House Tully. 

This is why I am very firmly in the camp that says that no, there was no conspiracy against the Targaryens going, and that what Hoster Tully, as shitty as he may have been, was working to shore up his alliances as a check against a perceived threat. Catelyn says that her father always felt that Walder Frey was friendlier with Casterly Rock. And look at the ugliness that hatched from that "friendship." 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So Hoster calling Walder Frey "The Late Lord Walder" makes him a complete hypocrite because his ass might have ended up sitting out the rebellion like the Freys did if he hadn't been approached by either faction. 

Sitting out of the rebellion maybe, joining late to one faction while claiming, and lying through his ass, that he was always going to join said faction, no. Hoster does not resent Walder for sitting out of the war, he resents him for appearing late and shamelessly lying acting as if he was going to join him all along. 

Ned resents the Lannisters for similar reasons, among others,

 

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Family. Yeah being estranged from your brother for 30 years because he would

True, the man's an asshole.

 

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

as well as murdering your own unborn grandkid is the mark of a man who really loves his family.

He did not murder a human being tho.

 

 

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

There was no honor in the moon tea thing, especially that given the timelines it was a pretty late term abortion (I mean infanticide/forced abortion is awful no matter what, but late term it's particularly horrible).

There is no honor in having a bastard either and Hoster is making his daughter no kindness by letting her keeping the baby, Lysa's life would've been ruined even more.

 

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

. He did it out of his own ambition so he can get a good marriage at that moment cause he had leverage on Jon Arryn

He did well before the war started, i don't believe the man Nostradamus.

 

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

and all that (the marriage and the forced abortion) fucked Lysa up for life.

Lysa was pretty happy with the marriage in the early stages, it was the fact that she only had stillbirths what fuked her up.

 

 

 

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This is why I am very firmly in the camp that says that no, there was no conspiracy against the Targaryens going, and that what Hoster Tully, as shitty as he may have been, was working to shore up his alliances as a check against a perceived threat. Catelyn says that her father always felt that Walder Frey was friendlier with Casterly Rock. And look at the ugliness that hatched from that "friendship." 

agreed

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

as well as murdering your own unborn grandkid is the mark of a man who really loves his family.

He did not murder a human being tho.

38 out of 50 American states beg to differ as feticide is considered murder there. But really let's not push this particular argument as it leads to the never ending rabbit whole starting with an a.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

. He did it out of his own ambition so he can get a good marriage at that moment cause he had leverage on Jon Arryn

He did well before the war started, i don't believe the man Nostradamus.

Well given Cat's memories and Lysa's sudden mood shift, he probably only found out after the wedding that she was pregnant and gave her the moons tea then.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

and all that (the marriage and the forced abortion) fucked Lysa up for life.

Lysa was pretty happy with the marriage in the early stages, it was the fact that she only had stillbirths what fuked her up.

And the tansy clearly had no relation to this. It's not like medieval abortives were known to potentially cause reproductive issues, something probably massively complied by Lysa's body expelling not some egg, but a full fetus months into her pregnancy.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

8 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Walder Frey is not an easy lord to please, though... feeling slighted because your already aged and sick overlord didn't show to your seventh wedding seems rather harsh.

While I'm not about to disagree with your assessment, I'd point out that Hoster hid his condition. AGoT, Catelyn XI.

Quote

"Will that bring Ned back to me?" she said sharply. The wound was still too fresh for softer words. She could not think about Ned now. She would not. It would not do. She had to be strong. "All that will keep. I must see Father."

"He awaits you in his solar," Edmure said.

"Lord Hoster is bedridden, my lady," her father's steward explained. When had that good man grown so old and grey? "He instructed me to bring you to him at once."

"I'll take her." Edmure escorted her up the water stair and across the lower bailey, where Petyr Baelish and Brandon Stark had once crossed swords for her favor. The massive sandstone walls of the keep loomed above them. As they pushed through a door between two guardsmen in fish-crest helms, she asked, "How bad is he?" dreading the answer even as she said the words.

Edmure's look was somber. "He will not be with us long, the maesters say. The pain is … constant, and grievous."

A blind rage filled her, a rage at all the world; at her brother Edmure and her sister Lysa, at the Lannisters, at the maesters, at Ned and her father and the monstrous gods who would take them both away from her. "You should have told me," she said. "You should have sent word as soon as you knew."

"He forbade it. He did not want his enemies to know that he was dying. With the realm so troubled, he feared that if the Lannisters suspected how frail he was …"

"… they might attack?" Catelyn finished, hard. It was your doing, yours, a voice whispered inside her. If you had not taken it upon yourself to seize the dwarf …

They climbed the spiral stair in silence.

Quote

Catelyn knelt and took her father's hand in hers. It was a big hand, but fleshless now, the bones moving loosely under the skin, all the strength gone from it. "You should have told me," she said. "A rider, a raven …"

"Riders are taken, questioned," he answered. "Ravens are brought down …" A spasm of pain took him, and his fingers clutched hers hard. "The crabs are in my belly … pinching, always pinching. Day and night. They have fierce claws, the crabs. Maester Vyman makes me dreamwine, milk of the poppy … I sleep a lot … but I wanted to be awake to see you, when you came. I was afraid … when the Lannisters took your brother, the camps all around us … I was afraid I would go, before I could see you again … I was afraid …"

Someone might say that this level of wariness lends yet additional credence to the position that he wanted those alliances for safety, rather than to overthrow the Targaryens.

[James West]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So we may think about him as a kind and witty fatherly figure, but that's because that's how Cat sees him. But let's think objectively. He's a veeery ambitious person, located at the center of the anti Targ conspiracy pre Rebellion, with only Rickard and his maester having a more central position. To facilitate that he goes all in trying to get marriages and later even blackmails Jon Arryn so he can marry Lysa. His relation with Brynden is also awful, because he just couldn't accept his brother not wanting to marry. And then of course there's the moon tea. All in all, Hoster manages to break all 3 of the Tully words/principles

- Family. Yeah being estranged from your brother for 30 years because he would not marry as well as murdering your own unborn grandkid is the mark of a man who really loves his family.

- Duty. Actively partaking in a conspiracy against his own king and joining a rebellion not to depose a mad King but a whole dynasty just so you can get better marriages sure doesn't seem particularly dutiful.

- Honor. Both of the previous 2 points come again for this one. One should also mention that in the case of the moon tea, while it is unclear if Lysa took it through coercion, force or trickery, one thing is clear, honor was not part of that.

So all in all a pretty shady, ambitious individual. What do you think?

He was a selfish dude.  The Baelish are far below his station but that should no longer be the issue after Lysa got pregnant.  That was his grandchild baking in the oven.  But you know something.  At least he felt guilty on his deathbed.  It doesn't count for much but that is the R&R¹ in the view of some people. 

It is worth making a comparison of the fathers.  What would Tywin, Rickard, and Aerys do in a similar situation?  Aerys would have sent his executioner to get rid of Rhaegar's bastards as soon as he found out. 

 

¹Remorse and redemption.

[Loose Bolt]

18 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How on Earth did GRRM create so many of them? I think they're more Freys in the story then all the members of the Great Houses combined.

Frey(r) is Norse god of summer, virility, prosperity ... So it makes sense that house named after that god would be successful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyr 

 

[broken one]

20 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Frey(r) is Norse god of summer, virility, prosperity ... So it makes sense that house named after that god would be successful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyr

 

shame GRRM did not make them a bit more peaceful if so. Or did not name them house Mice instead

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 hours ago, James West said:

It is worth making a comparison of the fathers.  What would Tywin, Rickard, and Aerys do in a similar situation?  Aerys would have sent his executioner to get rid of Rhaegar's bastards as soon as he found out. 

You know things are fucked up when out of all of them, Tywin is the only one I'd trust not to commit a horrific crime as his pride would never allow himself to admit shame on his house and would continue trying to sell the daughter in question after the pregnancy. And after hanging the bloke who got her pregnant, but that's another thing altogether

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

12 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well given Cat's memories and Lysa's sudden mood shift, he probably only found out after the wedding that she was pregnant and gave her the moons tea then.

 

And the tansy clearly had no relation to this. It's not like medieval abortives were known to potentially cause reproductive issues, something probably massively complied by Lysa's body expelling not some egg, but a full fetus months into her pregnancy.

No Lysa was found to be pregnant before the marriage was arranged. Although it may be that she didn't know that. I think she may have believed she would be marrying LF until the morning of her wedding, when she found out she had to marry Jon Arryn (a bit like Sansa with Tyrion). Catelyn thought that Lysa was crying because she was just nervous. But in fact she was crying because she had to marry an old man that she didn't even know.

I believe that somewhere this same morning it was explained to her that she had to get married because she was pregnant. And was later given the moon tea to get rid of the bastard. Although this does seem confusing, because one would expect that Jon Arryn would've wanted to attempt making an heir during his wedding night. So perhaps she was given the moon tea before the wedding, and it was a the miscarriage of her second pregnancy that made "all the light go out of her", but if that was the case, than I don't understand why'd she be happy and radiant during her wedding. Unless she was unaware at that point that she wasn't pregnant anymore, or took so much comfort from the thought that she'd be pregnant again after that night.. I don't know.. is all a bit vague..

In any case it was actually Jon who had leverage over Hoster. Jon Arryn was safe in the Vale in his impregnable castle, and could easily wait out the war. The Riverlands didn't have that luxury. Hoster had to choose sides, and since Cat had already been betrothed to Brandon, he was automatically on the traitor list. So he had no choice but to marry Cat to Ned. Jon Arryn only agreed to join the rebellion, after he was promised a new young wife who had proven to be fertile.

Perhaps Hoster would've allowed Lysa to actually carry the baby to term, and have it raised somewhere in the household or village, if there had been more time, but due to the rebellion she had to get married right away, cause Jon would only join the battle after getting married, so she couldn't.

It's implied that Jon and Lysa's fertility issues were related to Jon, having his first wife die in childbed, giving birth to a stillborn child, and a second childless marriage as well. 

I think the combination of the forced abortion and all the miscarriages drove Lysa mad, especially since she probably blamed the miscarriages on the abortion, and on Hoster.

I don't think Hoster was an awful person. I think he had very little choice in the matter. As I said he would automatically be seen as one of the rebels, due to Cat's betrothal to Brandon. With a normal king he could've made his alliance to the crown known officially, and that would clear it up, no biggie. But with a mad and paranoid king like Aerys, he would most likely still be required to go to KL to declare his allegiance, and then be burned alive anyway. So he had no choice but to marry Cat to Ned and Lysa to Jon. I'm pretty sure that that wasn't the marriage she had wanted for her. Mind you, he was negotiating a marriage with Jaime Lannister for her, before Aerys made him kingsguard. Tywin offered Tyrion, and he flat out refused, because he wanted his daughter to marry a whole man.

In the end he had to make a match that was less than ideal to protect both his family, cause they'd all be dead without the alliance of the Vale, and for his duty towards his Bannermen and his people. One could argue that the most honourable thing to do was to put his duty towards his people above the emotional well-being of his family members. And in the end all his loving care for his daughter and future grandchild, wouldn't be able to protect them were they to lose the war. Had he made an emotional, rather than a political choice, than both his daughters may have suffered a fate far worse than being married to an old man with bad breath.

[broken one]

the whole bunch of tullys created littlefinger, westeros should be grateful

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I believe that somewhere this same morning it was explained to her that she had to get married because she was pregnant. And was later given the moon tea to get rid of the bastard. Although this does seem confusing, because one would expect that Jon Arryn would've wanted to attempt making an heir during his wedding night. So perhaps she was given the moon tea before the wedding, and it was a the miscarriage of her second pregnancy that made "all the light go out of her", but if that was the case, than I don't understand why'd she be happy and radiant during her wedding. Unless she was unaware at that point that she wasn't pregnant anymore, or took so much comfort from the thought that she'd be pregnant again after that night.. I don't know.. is all a bit vague..

Well let's analyze the facts that we do know:

- Lysa was madly infatuated with Petyr

- Jon was an old man, clearly not one to capture a young maiden's heart, particularly Lysa's

- Lysa we know was very happy on her wedding

- The other time we know she was happy was when she announced her pregnancy at the same time as Catelyn

- She finally went into her profound sadness when "her moonsblood came some days later". I think that her moonblood coming later is alias for the forced abortion.

 

So the abortion must have happened some 2 or 3 weeks after the wedding (the time it takes from a successful conception (Cat's to be precise) to the first period going missing). So taking that into account, the abortion must have happened several moons in.

So Lysa must have known she was pregnant on her wedding night. Taking all that into account, my theory is that Lysa was hoping to pass Littlefinger's kid for Jon's (a kind of mockingbird if you will) and that was why she was so happy at the wedding thinkin she fooled them all. However when she announced she was pregnant, Hoster or the maester must have realized she wasn't several weeks, but several months pregnant and put 2 and 2 together resulting in the tansy and Lysa getting her "moonsblood" several days later.

[broken one]

hmmm wasn't it misscariage of Arryns child/foetus/whatever?

[kissdbyfire]

Lysa got pregnant well before her wedding to Jon Arryn. In Storm Cat is with Hoster and he keeps talking about “tansy”, and “all the blood”, implying Lysa got quite sick and/or bled a lot after drinking the moon tea. And we know Lysa not only wasn’t sick when she married, but was “radiant”. My 2p. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

53 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Lysa we know was very happy on her wedding

No, she wasn't. 

Lysa wept all the morning of her wedding, but she managed to stop crying and look radiant when she got married. (Cat VI, ASoS)