Jump to content

The Dragon Requires Three Books


Canon Claude

Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well, there are some specific lines that are added which shouldn't be there if it weren't the case. 

Which lines? What do they mean in your opinion.

I found it extremely funny that you are twisting random lines to suit your views when talking about a story that's partially about how people twist prophecy so it suits their notions.

 

Quote

Ned is a POV, Rhaegar isn't. Yet for some reason he pops up everywhere. 

Well, because he was an important part of the story before the story, like Jon Arryn, Aerys, Joanna Lannister, Ellia.

He's likely more important to the story than any of them, but not more so than the actual characters in the story.

It's like saying Elendil is the most important character in LOTR, or dumb kid's parent in the harry potter books, or liam neeson in the original trilogy of that masters of the universe ripoff.

 

Quote

Subtext

nope, just what you reed into, a book isn't made of subtext, Summerhall is part of the story, but not a big one, and we'll likely never know what happened there. Again, using your same metric for importance: it wasn't a part of the show.

 

Quote

In the forsaken sample chapter the woman standing next to Euron is the same fit as Quiathe in Dany's dreams. 

Quote

a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire

That... looks nothing like Quaithe, there's no mention of stars nor masks, the shadow could actually be anyone, but Quaithe seems like a really easy to dismiss option, as we know how she looks in visions, yet this vision is completely different from her.

 

Quote

Yeah she does, in book 2. Arya saves his life and he pledges to help her under the heart tree. She chooses him over the Baratheon (Robert/Gendry).

I think you misremember, the character in that scene was a faceless man that at that time used the name Jaqen H'ghar, and that now is likely in the citadel under the name Pate.

 

Quote

Not specific to the ghost of high heart. 

So? neither where most of her visions. She saw the monster Arya could become and got scared, why would she see sumerhall? because of Lyanna? She wasn't even born when the tragedy happened.

 

Quote

I wrote about somewhere here. 

Where?

 

Quote

It's told to use in the prologue of AFFC.  

Pate's backstory, its impossible for George to have accidently added that.

The fuck are you talking about dude?

 

Quote

He doesn't have to be the big bad, but he is important. 

I never said he won't be, but to claim he's more important than Bran, Jon, etc, that's nonsense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaqen is not Rhaegar’s son Aegon, and I will bet good money on it. That’s a huge leap, based on absolutely nothing but wishful thinking.

Ohhh, can we? please @butterweedstrover

But also, @Alexis-something-Rose is right, I wanted to see how long we could dance around it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

The fuck are you talking about dude?

 

 

Here is the quote: 

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows  

It couldn't exist if anything else was true. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

1. The baby clothes in Ducks chest suggest the baby swap happened. 

Or that he has more than one outfit?

 

Quote

2. YG is too young and he was added very late in the story 

Too young for what? How is he too young? Too late for what? 

Your argument seems to be that Aegon is important because he shows up at the beginning of the story, yet your evidence for him showing up at the beginning is that he's too important?
 

Quote

3. Dany saw a door of black and white in her vision 

She also saw the red wedding and Rhaego

 

Quote

4. Aegon is the only one (of the potential suspects) to be described as regal and beautiful. Note this is how Cersei describes Rhaegar as well. 

Potential suspects of what? 

 

Quote

5. He pledges himself under the heart tree to Arya (like Rhaegar and Lyanna), but there is peculiar line cut from the show: Arya accidently calls him a king and this is the first and only time his accent brakes 

???????????

 

Quote

6. The Pate backstory (it would not be written if the story wasn't true, I mean it's too specific). 

(snip)

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows 

What's the relevance of this? too specific for what?

 

Quote

7. The dragon egg, YG doesn't have one. Dragon eggs are associated with the Targaryen heir  

What dragon egg? Not every Targ had dragon eggs. Viserys didn't, nor Dany till Illyrio, nor most Targaryens after the extinction (that we know of)

 

Quote

Side note: red hair is for Elia, white hair is for Rhaegar.  

Ellia didn't have red hair.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ok @CamiloRP @Alexis-something-Rose @kissdbyfire and others who has posted about this:

 

Lets make a deal, when it is revealed in TWOW, I want cookies for everyone.

I can make that deal, only if there's cookies from your part when it isn't

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

What's the relevance of this? too specific for what?

 

Ok fine, I'll just copy and paste for this one: 

five plus thirteen is eighteen, the age Aegon should be by book four. Thirteen is the age limit for new disciples to the house of black and white (Arya had the coin so she is a special case). "remained as pink as the day he arrived" means Aegon was still a dragon despite being taught to be nobody. 

He believed himself ready to take his place as Aegon VI just like Pate believed himself ready twice. 

The first Archmaester is called Vaellyn. Va is for Varys, and lly is for Ilyrio. 

Vinegar is bitter like the taste of rejection, he was rejected by Varys and Ilyrio, the men he thought would help him.  

The he went to the kindly man in the house of black and white (after harrenhall). Ebrose is described as "kindly old" with a "soft voice". His "sighs" are how he shows disappointment with Arya when she embraces her own identity. These sighs were given to Aegon for clinging to his. 

 

Here is an extra tidbit for you. GRRM always has his work compared to Tolkien, so he has a reference.  

The Quill and Tankard is a tavern like the Prancing Pony. 

In both book series their is a hooded man in the corner of a tavern going by a false name watching our POV characters who is also a secret prince (next in line to be king). 

Strider is Aragorn II, and the alchemist is Aegon VI. 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Ellia didn't have red hair.

For house Martell, the sun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

five plus thirteen is eighteen, the age Aegon should be by book four.

Same with Jon. Are they all the same character? Maybe Robb didn't die and he is Jaqen aswell

 

Quote

"remained as pink as the day he arrived" means Aegon was still a dragon despite being taught to be nobody. 

So... he didn't spend that time in the citadel then? wouldn't his friends know? also, if he was still a dragon, wouldn't his inner monologue reveal it? Why was he allowed to leave the HOBAW despite remaining a dragon? 

Also, there's no evidence here, just guessing.

 

Quote

He believed himself ready to take his place as Aegon VI just like Pate believed himself ready twice. 

Guessing again.

 

Quote

The first Archmaester is called Vaellyn. Va is for Varys, and lly is for Ilyrio. 

I believe his name comes from Vaemond Velaryon and Illyn Payne

 

Quote

Vinegar is bitter like the taste of rejection, he was rejected by Varys and Ilyrio, the men he thought would help him.  

Except Illyrio never rejected him? he's founding his whole thing and seems to actually care for him, and Varys seems to be working in his favor too.

I think it was the rejection Jon felt from Cat, Robb (you can't be LOWF, you are a bastard) and Sansa

 

Quote

The he went to the kindly man in the house of black and white (after harrenhall). Ebrose is described as "kindly old" with a "soft voice". His "sighs" are how he shows disappointment with Arya when she embraces her own identity. These sighs were given to Aegon for clinging to his. 

Again, just guessing

 

Quote

Here is an extra tidbit for you. GRRM always has his work compared to Tolkien, so he has a reference.  

The Quill and Tankard is a tavern like the Prancing Pony. 

In both book series their is a hooded man in the corner of a tavern going by a false name watching our POV characters who is also a secret prince (next in line to be king). 

Strider is Aragorn II, and the alchemist is Aegon VI. 

Forced parallel, if you remove your conjecture the parallel disappears, the hooded future king is the only thing that makes the parallel and it's a guess.

I think Arya is a parallel to superman, because both lose their biological family and then make themselves a new one, also both fly (I have a theory that Arya can fly)

 

Quote

For house Martell, the sun.

I think Jaqen is the son of:

Joanna Lannister and Jeor Mormont

The Ghost of High Heart and Roose Bolton

Rohanne Webber and Eustace Osgrey

Melissandre and Rickard Stark

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Same with Jon. Are they all the same character? Maybe Robb didn't die and he is Jaqen aswell

This is a metaphorical backstory related to Pate. 

Who as we know has his identity taken from the Alchemist. Robb is not involved.

 

Quote

So... he didn't spend that time in the citadel then? wouldn't his friends know? also, if he was still a dragon, wouldn't his inner monologue reveal it? Why was he allowed to leave the HOBAW despite remaining a dragon?  

No no no. that's Pate. 

Pate isn't Aegon, but his backstory is a metaphor for Aegon's backstory. 

The real Aegon was sent to the house of black and white, the kindly man knew who he was. 

As for the last part, he struggles with his identity. He leaves to follow Ilyrio to take back his birth right. But Varys (as Rugen) has him locked in the black cells

Quote

 

I believe his name comes from Vaemond Velaryon and Illyn Payne

Now you're being glib. 

But again this is a conversation about Pate, a metaphor for the alchemist. 

The gold dragon he is looking for is a parallel to the dragon egg Aegon is trying to hatch. 

 

Quote

Except Illyrio never rejected him? he's founding his whole thing and seems to actually care for him, and Varys seems to be working in his favor too. 

That's YG the fake. The real Aegon was sent to the house of black and white so he would lose his claim on the throne. They locked him in the black cell so he would go to the wall, and again, give up his claim to the throne. 

He was raised inside Ilyrio's manse so he thought they would support his claim. They didn't. 

Quote

I think it was the rejection Jon felt from Cat, Robb (you can't be LOWF, you are a bastard) and Sansa

He was raised in Ilyrio's mansion. He thought the two of them would support his claim, but they wanted an imposter in his stead.

Quote

Again, just guessing

It's part of the story being told if we follow the metaphor.

Quote

 

 

Yeah this stuff is ridiculous. There is no comparison. 

The backstory written here follows Aegon's journey throughout the first three books. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The quote about Pate prooves that you can draw contrasts between different characters in any situation. And remember that Jaqen is a a Faceless Man. If he wants to be regal and beautiful, he can put on a face that is regal and beautiful. If he wants to be dumpy and warty, he can put on a dumpy, warty face. If he wants to be some nondescript guy, he can put on a nondescript face. Under your logic, @butterweedstrover, Jaqen could be any missing character. He could be Tyrek Lannister. We don't know. But I do think that Jaqen being Aegon is a huge leap to make.

I agree that fAegon is too young to be the real thing. But I don't think Jaqen is the real Aegon, and Pate having similar aspects to his backstory is probably coincidental, not something GRRM did intentionally.

Btw, I'll be happy with a Guinness. Just puttin' that out there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The quote about Pate prooves that you can draw contrasts between different characters in any situation. And remember that Jaqen is a a Faceless Man. If he wants to be regal and beautiful, he can put on a face that is regal and beautiful. If he wants to be dumpy and warty, he can put on a dumpy, warty face. If he wants to be some nondescript guy, he can put on a nondescript face. Under your logic, @butterweedstrover, Jaqen could be any missing character. He could be Tyrek Lannister. We don't know. But I do think that Jaqen being Aegon is a huge leap to make. 

This is only part of it. The story sort of explains itself, as well as the many different types of foreshadowing. 

It explains why he was in the black cells, how the baby swap happened, and much else.  

For example, if you read the Harrenhall chapters as a parallel to the tourney here are the attributes you will find: 

Gendry is Robert, Arya is Lyanna, and Aegon VI is Rhaegar. Arya and Gendry are already companions when they come to Harrenhall. Gendry doesn't like Aegon and tells Arya to stay away from him. 

Arya chooses Aegon over Gendry, and they pledge to help each other under the heart tree (where Rhaegar and Lyanna's secret marriage happened). 

Aegon has a chiseled face and white hair which are staple Targaryen features (according to GRRM). When he leaves he changes his face so Varys' spies won't catch him. 

He returns to the house of black and white, but is rejected by the kindly man. Remember the kindly man sighs at Arya whenever she claims her old identity which is what Aegon does. 

He then takes the contract to kill Balon for the dragon egg because he needs one to prove his birth right. He goes to the citadel to try and crack the egg (since again the Maesters were the ones that poisoned the previous eggs).  

There is no reason to give Pate a long backstory, but it acts as a Metaphor for Aegon VI. 

Also listen to their discussion (between the alchemist and Pate). "I'm no thief", etc. 

This is the discussion Elia and Rhaegar had about him taking Lyanna as a second wife. 

Quote

I agree that fAegon is too young to be the real thing. But I don't think Jaqen is the real Aegon, and Pate having similar aspects to his backstory is probably coincidental, not something GRRM did intentionally. 

Really (and this is my opinion) from what I have seen (and there is more of course) its honestly impossible for him to accidently line up the dialogue like this perfectly. 

Quote

Btw, I'll be happy with a Guinness. Just puttin' that out there.

This is getting expensive. But alas a deal is a deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@butterweedstrover, please stop calling Jaqen “Aegon”, seriously. You have an idea, and that’s well and good, and maybe you’re the only special snowflake who “figured it all out”. But if everyone who thinks character X is, in reality, character Y, and they all start referring to characters by calling them Y instead of X it’s going to be so confusing that discussions will become impossible. :lol:
 

“Oh yes, when Dany was in bed with Euron...”

”And then Jon told Rhaegar...”

”When Jon killed Arthur Dayne...”

“Remember when Howland Reed talked with Cersei...”

Etc, etc, etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is a metaphorical backstory related to Pate. 

Who as we know has his identity taken from the Alchemist. Robb is not involved.

Why is it metaphorical? why isn't it just his backstory?

 

Quote

No no no. that's Pate. 

Pate isn't Aegon, but his backstory is a metaphor for Aegon's backstory. 

Why? cause you say it? every parallel you are drawing is based on evidence you made up. there's no reason to assume any of the "ageon backstory" you invented.

 

Quote

The real Aegon was sent to the house of black and white, the kindly man knew who he was. 

give me one piece of evidence for that. Not assumptions, not parallels, tangible evidence that aims at him being in the HOBAW.

 

Quote

As for the last part, he struggles with his identity. He leaves to follow Ilyrio to take back his birth right. But Varys (as Rugen) has him locked in the black cells

Guessing based on no evidence.

 

Quote

Now you're being glib. 

The parallels I draw have as much evidence as yours.

 

Quote

But again this is a conversation about Pate, a metaphor for the alchemist. 

Says who?

 

Quote

The gold dragon he is looking for is a parallel to the dragon egg Aegon is trying to hatch. 

Since when is he trying to hatch a dragon egg?

 

Quote

That's YG the fake. The real Aegon was sent to the house of black and white so he would lose his claim on the throne. They locked him in the black cell so he would go to the wall, and again, give up his claim to the throne. 

Why didn't them jsut let him die at the hands of Gregor? Why didn't them just kill him instead of giving him to the HOBAW, why did they teach him of his lineage is they didn't want him to be king? why didn't they kill him instead of sending him to The Wall? What die Rorge and BIter have to do with him?

If YG is a fake, why does his chest of clothes point to the baby swap?

 

Quote

He was raised inside Ilyrio's manse so he thought they would support his claim. They didn't. 

Why was he?

 

Quote

He was raised in Ilyrio's mansion. He thought the two of them would support his claim, but they wanted an imposter in his stead.

Why?

 

Quote

It's part of the story being told if we follow the metaphor.

No, you are absolutely guessing it.

 

Quote

Yeah this stuff is ridiculous. There is no comparison. 

The backstory written here follows Aegon's journey throughout the first three books. 

You are guessing that based on no evidence.

 

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten,

18, Robb's would be age

yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands.

His head got cut off and sent to Casterly Rock, the pink is the wound where it healed.

Twice had he believed himself ready.

He had to be the lord of Winterfell, then the KITN

The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens.

Vaellyn sounds like Baelish and ends in llyn, this brings to min Littlefinger and Illyn Payne, two men responsable for the death of Robb's father.

Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name.

The bitterness of loosing Ned, his siblings, etc

It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." 

The low voice of Roose Bolton being deadlier than the command of Joffrey, who killed his father by word

 

Some other evidence:

Robb used to play that he was the young dragon, and in fact he was later named the young wolf, so that's what the "golden dragon" pate is "chasing" represents.

The parallel to Aragorn works, as Robb is also a king

Pate died for a girl, same as Robb, and they both died while being really close to fulfilling their plans.

Jaqen's hair: red for Cat, white for Ned

 

What does this mean?

Jaqen had a plan involving Robb's face, so he traveled to the Westerlands and recovered his head, then he put on the face and memories came flowing back (like it happens to Arya, but augmented because of Robb's telepathic abilities), then Jaqen and Robb become one person, and this person has a plan to take his kingdom back, he goes to the Citadel and studies on magic, which makes an impression on the Archmaester of the occult, now he's got a glass candle and he can organice his family members to help retake his kingdom, he will send visions to Arya so she goes back west and starst killing his enemies, and he's sending visions to LSH so she kills all the Freys, he's also sending visions to Jon and Melissandre so the Boltons are terminated, and finally, with his powers incremented by the glass candle, he's warging Nymeria's entire pack.

And I did this bullshit incredibly fast, so mnay more characters could fit, even better than Aegon or Robb.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@butterweedstrover, please stop calling Jaqen “Aegon”, seriously. You have an idea, and that’s well and good, and maybe you’re the only special snowflake who “figured it all out”. But if everyone who thinks character X is, in reality, character Y, and they all start referring to characters by calling them Y instead of X it’s going to be so confusing that discussions will become impossible. :lol:
 

“Oh yes, when Dany was in bed with Euron...”

”And then Jon told Rhaegar...”

”When Jon killed Arthur Dayne...”

“Remember when Howland Reed talked with Cersei...”

Etc, etc, etc. 

I love how I understood all those, this community is great

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After all, I'm not sayin' @butterweedstrover's guessing isn't true.

He maybe figured it out, whoknows. But the thing I don't understand is that why would Illyrio and Varys (two masterminds) cast someone too young for the role of Aegon, unless that boy isn't Illyrio's kin.

As I said before, it seems to me that houses Stark and Targaryen matter equally. And even if @butterweedstrover's theory is wrong, you people might realise that many-many things were kept hidden as the story went on, just so it wouldn't be easy to figure out. We don't know what happened exactly at Summerhall, or at Harrenhall, or with Ashara, etc... because if we get those information, we might figure out much more. Just remember why Howland Reed did not appear yet.

At this point we are all just guessing, some are more likely than others.

But the thing that cannot be questioed is (this too goes for @butterweedstrover especially) that the Others are the big bad, they're there for a reason, Stark and Targaryen only matter because of them, because the PTWP.

And I personally think that another book will be enough for 150 years to tell the Blackfyres and Aegon IV( I think thie will be the major thing in 2, just as the Dance was in the 1st), and such great kings as Daeron II and Aegon V.

Remember that he wrote down 135 years in one book, that includes the conquest, Aegon I, Maegor and Jaehaerys too.

And to those who think that no Targ was obsessed with the Others yet (I've just read it at this topic, but don't remeber who said it), then I would like to tell those that Aegon I conquered Westeros because of his vision about them, Aerys I (It is only my guessing, but still likely) did not make a heir because Brynden told him about the others, so he realised that it's not up to him to continue the line, and also got very obsessed with theories and visions along with Bloodraven. And then there's Aegon V, who let his children marry because of the prophecy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...