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The Dragon Requires Three Books


Canon Claude

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I want to give cookies to CamiloRP for trying to instill some sanity, facts, and logic.

Really, I don't see it. Jaqen H'gar being Aegon VI because... ehrm... various hair colours? And... uhm... Yeah, Rheagar and Elia had an imaginary conversarion that parrallels the imaginary backstory. What?

Really. If you want to be special and come up with a new "theory", please, at least make it fit the books, the known text. Not your fancies and "could've' beens".

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

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10 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

I want to give cookies to CamiloRP for trying to instill some sanity, facts, and logic.

Really, I don't see it. Jaqen H'gar being Aegon VI because... ehrm... various hair colours? And... uhm... Yeah, Rheagar and Elia had an imaginary conversarion that parrallels the imaginary backstory. What?

Really. If you want to be special and come up with a new "theory", please, at least make it fit the books, the known text. Not your fancies and "could've' beens".

 

Thanks I tried, I really thought I could make him understand.

Edit: did you really read trough that? It was so long and repetitive, how and why would you?

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Props to CamiloRP for persevering through this thread!
I only had to read it, I cant imagine how it was actually debating!

The clash between Camilo and the Aegon VI is Jaqen theory will be spoke of on this board for aeons to come!

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2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Thanks I tried, I really thought I could make him understand.

Edit: did you really read trough that? It was so long and repetitive, how and why would you?

Yeah, I did. Read through most of it. With strange fascination. Often while brushing my teeth, the pad lodged against my bathroom mirror. My teeth got well brushed while my jaw dropped. I think the imaginary Elia/Rheagar conversation ("thief"!) was the most jaw-dropping.

Top marks for imagination to the commenter, with such a difficult name/nic I can't spell it. Imagination isn't always a bad thing.

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7 minutes ago, McGuv19 said:

Props to CamiloRP for persevering through this thread!
I only had to read it, I cant imagine how it was actually debating!

The clash between Camilo and the Aegon VI is Jaqen theory will be spoke of on this board for aeons to come!

The fuck? another person read this? What do you read when there's no internet? the dictionary?

(but seriously thanks, you and @talvikorppi (talk about a hard to spell nic) kinda make me wanna continue)

 

4 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Yeah, I did. Read through most of it. With strange fascination. Often while brushing my teeth, the pad lodged against my bathroom mirror. My teeth got well brushed while my jaw dropped. I think the imaginary Elia/Rheagar conversation ("thief"!) was the most jaw-dropping.

Top marks for imagination to the commenter, with such a difficult name/nic I can't spell it. Imagination isn't always a bad thing.

TBH I liked the theory as a crackpot thing, and his show of imagination is remarkable, but the utter conviction in him being absolutely right baffles me to unknown extents.

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4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The fuck? another person read this? What do you read when there's no internet? the dictionary?

(but seriously thanks, you and @talvikorppi (talk about a hard to spell nic) kinda make me wanna continue)

 

TBH I liked the theory as a crackpot thing, and his show of imagination is remarkable, but the utter conviction in him being absolutely right baffles me to unknown extents.

How is my nic, perfectly straight-forward, talvi ("winter") and korppi ("raven") difficult to spell? Huh?

Anyway, I like crackpots as much as the next person. But for an idea, a "theory", to be a delightful crackpot requires the proposer to be a bit tongue-in-cheek about it. Not uniquelly, seriously convinced.

Anyway, it's good to have all kinds of ideas flying about. Even jaw-dropping ones.

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4 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

How is my nic, perfectly straight-forward, talvi ("winter") and korppi ("raven") difficult to spell? Huh?

Anyway, I like crackpots as much as the next person. But for an idea, a "theory", to be a delightful crackpot requires the proposer to be a bit tongue-in-cheek about it. Not uniquelly, seriously convinced.

Anyway, it's good to have all kinds of ideas flying about. Even jaw-dropping ones.

Exactly, like you are being with the crackpot theory in you first line, which is one of the craziest I've seen around here 

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Just now, talvikorppi said:

My first line???

How is my nic, perfectly straight-forward, talvi ("winter") and korppi ("raven") difficult to spell? Huh?

 

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What's crackpotty about my nic? It's a straght-forward word in my native laguage, translated into English "winter raven". Am I crackpotty without realising it? Am I missing something here? Ooh... Maybe I am Aegon VI/Jaqen! (that would be nice, it would make me "special")

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25 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

What's crackpotty about my nic? It's a straght-forward word in my native laguage, translated into English "winter raven". Am I crackpotty without realising it? Am I missing something here? Ooh... Maybe I am Aegon VI/Jaqen! (that would be nice, it would make me "special")

hahahah nah, it was a joke, I was saying that claiming your nic is easy to spell is a crackpot theory. I actually had a finnish friend in high school

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10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

hahahah nah, it was a joke, I was saying that claiming your nic is easy to spell is a crackpot theory. I actually had a finnish friend in high school

Ole kunnolla tai mä mäiskäsen!

("Be good or I'll whack you")

And I'm Jaqen H'gar/Aegon VI, so there!

 

Oooo, this is apparently my 500th post here! Celebration! :-D

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2 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Ole kunnolla tai mä mäiskäsen!

("Be good or I'll whack you")

And I'm Jaqen H'gar/Aegon IV, so there!

No me pegues o te amenazo.

("don't whack me or I'll threaten you")

And I'd win, cause I'm both Ser Barristan and The Mountain, what you gonna do dead boy with no face? run to your dead parents?

 

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I love Fire and Blood. I definitely think GRRM could write a second book that spans from Aegon III to Aegon IV's death and it would probably be just as long as the first book (especially since he seems to really enjoy Aegon the Unworthy). That would also prevent the material from infringing on the Dunk and Egg tales.

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

No me pegues o te amenazo.

("don't whack me or I'll threaten you")

And I'd win, cause I'm both Ser Barristan and The Mountain, what you gonna do dead boy with no face? run to your dead parents?

 

I'm not sure if that's Portuguese/Brazilian or some other language.

I win because my best Portuguese is "Esta carro me irmao, me irmao falar, sim-chumbo OK" (This is my brother car, my brother speaks, unleaded OK"). My brother lived in Lissabon, I visited and  borrowed his old banger of a car to drive around the countryside, the hills. Drove through the 3-4-5-lane "Marqis de Pombal" roundabout several times. Ah, good times.

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One more thing about the trios before I forget: 

The devouring head is Arya (I've already spoken about this). 

The mystery head is Aegon (unknown, yet to reveal himself) 

The reborn head is Jon (he is reborn from the dead). 

 

The arrows work like this: 

Cored apple (Golden shaft sliced right through) is Aegon. He has dornish blood, like the golden spear through the sun.  

The Rotten Apple is Arya (Of course) 

And the missed arrow, the apple that falls in the water is Jon (The child who missed his true parentage). 

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On 10/24/2020 at 10:17 PM, CamiloRP said:

I think it's for breeding purposes because it matches with the story and previous GRRM writings, in that sense they would absolutely care about genetics

I don't think their "breeding" has anything to do with human genetics.

On 10/25/2020 at 1:01 AM, butterweedstrover said:

Two hair colors has not been shown to be genetic trait in ASOIAF

Wrong, we do know of characters who naturally have that (CamiloRP notes them), and "Jaqen" changed his hair to that of the Alchemist without hair dye. His appearance is determined by Faceless Man magic.

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He has white hair like his father

Rhaegar had silver hair, not white.

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Varys claims to have taken him away at the start of the war

Varys made no such claim himself, YG claimed that and Vayrs implicitly confirmed his story by denying Kevan's claim about Aegon being dead.

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Gregor only admits to the crime during single combat with Oberyn

He winds up with a death sentence, so there's a good reason he & Tywin didn't want that coming out earlier (even though a number of people had heard that was indeed what happened).

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11. His accent breaks, therefore his accent is fake

12. He is not Lorathi

Quote the bit that says his accent breaks. Also, why the hell did you arrange to mix up these statements about Jaqen & Aegon rather than putting consolidating them into separate sequential blocks (as you did with Pate & Varys)? It makes it more annoying to read & quote.

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Either way Varys knew

Varys knew WHAT?

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Now in the classic fairy tale The Swineherd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swineherd) a prince disguises as a pig boy to win over an emperor's daughter.

Pate is not a literal pig-boy, but instead has a name like that character, and Spotted Pate in his world is not a disguised prince.

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I have offered up his age, and also the fact that he took no interest in the items in the chest.

The items in the chest were specifically tailored by Illyrio for the kid he raised in his manse and believes to be YG. If Illyrio is mistaken, this is a swap that took place relatively late and that Illyrio himself is ignorant of. That late and YG himself would probably be aware, but there's no evidence for that. Instead the simpler explanation is that the chest has more sentimental value to Illyrio than YG because YG hasn't been living with Illyrio for years.

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There is also the fact that the golden company supports his claim.

We hear from the GC that they were going to invade with Viserys & his Dothraki, and later with Dany and her three dragons. There are people who've come up with explanations to reconcile that with them not really wanting Viserys on the throne, but the evidence we have is of them supporting any Targaryen claimant Illyrio is backing (though not doing so openly until very recently).

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If in fact he is not the real Aegon, then the baby swap should not have happened. I take issue with this claim. Because the story of a child swap still happened relative to YG.

What is the reason to believe in a swap in that case?

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This book in ADWD is revealed (by Tyrion) to be about real dragons

We don't know what specifically the Alchemist wants, as it's none of Pate's concern. Tyrion doesn't even know the Alchemist exists. Furthermore, the book is about the Death of Dragons, not their birthing.

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(Correct me if I am wrong). Rhaegar played the harp for Lyanna in Harrenhall, and she wept.

You are wrong. He played for everybody present, Lyanna just happened to be one of the listeners. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had not yet appeared, so Rhaegar had no reason to pay particular attention to her yet.

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She knows

She knows WHAT?

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So Elia asks him: "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?"

NO. We get no scene of Elia asking that. You can't have a "parallel" with stuff you made up and isn't in the text.

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Which is what Rhaegar says as well in this situation

Again, that's not in the text. The "parallel" is one you made up.

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Drogon, the dragon is devouring the door of black and white

He's too small to do that, and biting isn't necessarily the same as eating (I don't know that the door is digestible).

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The dragon, the third head consuming the first.

What are you talking about? Amory Lorch is not the third head of the dragon, nor are the flames that presumably consumed Rhaenys' corpse when she was cremated!

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we have Arya calling out to someone whose name she does not know

She does know the name of that identity, which she later uses as the last name he owes her, it's just a fake identity because he's a Faceless Man.

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She lies but he is looking for an answer. He has heard of Arya of house stark, and the coin told him what he needed to know.

No. He never uses that name unprompted. He's good at detecting lies because of the "lying game" the Faceless Men are trained in.

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Unless you assume he is a mind reader which is giving the kindly man too much credit.

We don't need to assume that, we see with the Waif that Arya is not yet a good enough liar to deceive people with such training.

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He is in Oldtown, he is looking for a book on dragons

We don't know what specifically he's looking for.

On 10/25/2020 at 8:15 AM, CamiloRP said:

Varys doesn't claim to have taken him away at the start of the war, he claims to have taken YG

As I said, Varys makes no claim of taking away anyone. YG himself does, and Varys merely confirms the story implicitly.

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Tyrion is also interested in dragon books, same as Doran, and Quentyn, none of them are Targs

The first rule of ASoIaF theorycrafting is that EVERYONE is a secret Targ.

On 10/25/2020 at 9:39 AM, butterweedstrover said:

It is close to braavos, but he never lived there himself

It's possible, but you don't know that. A Lorathi might indeed find it easier to fake another Lorathi identity.

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Jaqen's accent, on a second read through, breaks at multiple times

Provide quotes.

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It is not a created identity, it is someone else

What is the evidence that doesn't apply for the identity of "Jaqen"?

On 10/25/2020 at 10:29 AM, butterweedstrover said:

Varys claims that YG is Aegon, so he does claim that he swapped the babies.

He only confirms YG's story implicitly. He does not say anything about personally swapping babies.

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Tywin and Tyrion have this discussion, everyone just assumes it was him

Why would Tywin lie to Tyrion that he ordered Gregor & Amory to murder those children!?

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Personally I don't buy it, elsewise he wouldn't be in the cage trying to get out.

He's only trying to get out when there's a fire about to kill him.

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Of course you don't have to agree, it's just where I'm at right now.

Where you are at right now is with a Quinean fabric whose edges are all in clouds in your head. Humans find patterns even where there are none. People who do that excessively are diagnosed as schizophrenics and in their most lucid moments realize that the patterns they find exist only in their heads and are otherwise meaningless. I've been watching videos on "Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice" recently and couldn't help seeing a parallel in her fixation on finding hidden runic symbols all around her.

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So he asks him for the deal, and there discussion plays out much like he is Rhaegar

Only in your head, not in the text.

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I believe that the vision would have shown us this as well.

Would have under what condition? The vision didn't show us that.

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If Jaqen was just a fake mask, he himself would have no connection to Arya.

But he does

We have no evidence that Jaqen is NOT just a face mask and that they will meet again. He's currently in Oldtown, which is a continent's breadth away from Braavos.

20 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The type that is told to us, and the type figured out through literary device.

The former is in the text we can all read, the latter so far has been all in your head.

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And the two halves have a secondary meaning, white for Targaryens, Red for Dorne.

White is not the Targaryen color! They have a three-headed red dragon on a black background. You can't say red represents house Martell and white house Targaryen, it's inconsistent.

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And Varys is smart, if he has a faceless man in his cells he would no.

Varys doesn't know everything, like that Ned Stark was going to be executed. The point of a Faceless Man going Faceless is to be mistaken as someone else and not perceived to be what they really are.

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Pate is compared to the pig boy from Swineherd

He's explicitly compared to Spotted Pate, hero of a thousand stories.

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He wants a repeat of Summerhall

Is he insane? That killed nearly everybody there.

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Then one day a mysterious stranger comes to town, same age as the girl would be.

You don't know Jaqen's age!

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a mysterious stranger comes to Westeros fitting his description

No he doesn't. Aegon was a baby, and nobody said anything about him having multicolored hair.

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trying at the same goal as Aegon's supposed father

You don't know that.

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starts playing sad music on his harp, the same we are told that made Lyanna weep

The same harp perhaps, but since he played a lot of sad music we can't be sure it's the same song.

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so thinking on that music would make her ask the question

Elia doesn't know to connect his music to that, Rhaegar plays his harp very frequently. Barristan talks about how he used to busk in King's Landing while disguised.

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Now think of it like this "Will you make a song for him", 'like you did for her'

But that's not what she actually said. And we don't know of Rhaegar making any song for Lyanna.

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'Will you make a song about us'?

She didn't say that either, and she already had a child with Rhaegar he could have written a song for.

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He probably has heard the accusations before, and he knew Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, so he yells out what people think is the truth.

WHY!?

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He told Arya he to come with him across the narrow sea

He didn't specifically say "with him". She said to show the coin to any man from Braavos if she would see him again.

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it was most like the maesters who poisoned the dragon eggs after the first dance with dragons

We don't even know if it's possible to poison an egg.

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Tyrion for example doesn't want a dragon for himself.

As a child he specifically wished for a dragon small enough for him to ride.

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Rhaegar would have wanted the baby a safe distance from the fighting in Westeros, at least until the war was over (he had no plans of losing).

He seems to have taken zero steps to protect his children with Elia, precisely because he thought he would win.

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Yeah, which is why we know he sung a song for Lyanna

No, we know he sang a song and she cried, but not that the song was for her specifically.

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and strums a sad tune (not for his son), but for Lyanna. I think Elia would notice that.

Even we don't know that the song he's playing is "for Lyanna".

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Those are the same words Elia would ask Rhaegar.

Why the hell would Elia say "You won't do better"?

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why wouldn't she ask this question

Many people prefer not to bring up embarassing incidents, and shortly after giving birth hardly seems like to time to bring up her husband embarassing her. The Alchemist is trying to goad Pate into making the deal, there's no reason for Elia to talk like him.

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He responds: “I am no thief,”

Note there is no gap in the text from the one line to the next. Rhaegar says he won't take a woman who is already betrothed.

We have no text of Rhaegar saying that.

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But like Pate he eventually (after time) concedes: “I suppose I am a thief.”

We have no text of Rhaegar saying either of these contradictory lines.

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We see this man again in the citadel, looking to birth a dragon.

We don't see that latter bit.

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1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

I'm not sure if that's Portuguese/Brazilian or some other language.

I win because my best Portuguese is "Esta carro me irmao, me irmao falar, sim-chumbo OK" (This is my brother car, my brother speaks, unleaded OK"). My brother lived in Lissabon, I visited and  borrowed his old banger of a car to drive around the countryside, the hills. Drove through the 3-4-5-lane "Marqis de Pombal" roundabout several times. Ah, good times.

brazilian is portuguese :p

and I was 'speaking' Spanish (tho to be fair I had to google yours to know what it was, my first reaction was 'some nordic one') Tho I do speak portuguese, because I live next door to Brazil and been many times.

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4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think their "breeding" has anything to do with human genetics.

Yeah, it's a possibility, breeding is just my best guess to why they steal people, but no matter the reason we can assume that weaker, more likely to die babies are worse for them than healthy ones, because they are harder to take care of and obviously more likely to die. But honestly, breeding seems like the only rational reason to me, the only others I can think of are:

Eating, with seems off, as they could develop agriculture and be done with it, and even if they wanted to eat specifically humans they would eat their wights before they rot.

Slave work, which I think is not the reason because they have wights, which I imagine to be a more efficient slave force (well, corpses can't do dextrous work in the meat-handler trilogy, but in Westeros there aren't much of those)

The other one would be as pets, which if you subscribe to the Plutonian Others theory (which @Lady Dacey was kindly enough to show me) fits reasonably way, but, tho it's thoroughly researched and wonderfully written, I don't lend much credence to because The Others seem more human to me than said theory states, also there are a lot of stories about mating with Others, which makes me think they are at least a little bit human (as I state here) and given that that theory was partly written by @kissdbyfire I'm contractually obliged to disagree. Also, starting a war for wanting of pets seems like a lot.

But I may be overlooking some possible reason, why do you think they want them?

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