The Dragon Requires Three Books

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

The Baratheon super-dominant hair color doesn't match real-world genetics, someone with Tyrion's dwarfism shouldn't be able to do backflips, and albinos have poor eyesight so Bloodraven wouldn't be effective as an archer. 

He admitted to being ignorantly on dwarf physical abilities.  

Increasing dominant genes, or what genes are recessive or dominant, does not create unreal physical appearances. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would he do that? None of Aegon's relatives had red hair. 

Red for the sun, for fire, for dorne. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Kevan never heard YG or Illyrio give any explanation as to how Aegon survived, Varys is merely telling him that Aegon's alive and "here". So we have Varys now making that claim explicitly, it's just readers who can see that YG's story matches up with what Varys tells Kevan. 

That still counts you know. This discussion is purely diction based, but inadvertently agreeing to a claim associates that claim with yourself. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As opposed to Amory Lorch killing all three while Gregor slacked off? Both Gregor & Amory were working for Tywin so I expect Gregor discussed it at some point, possibly in the same conversation where Amory was making excuses. 

All I am saying is we are never given one moment where Gregor was known to be asked of his guilt, it is only ever assumed until the trial with Oberyn. If he was the books never tells us.

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't see a "possessive" (and Jaqen has no problem using phrasing like "him at his leisure") and a "speech pattern" is not the same as an accent. And while "a girl jests" might be the more normal phrase, the ellipsis makes it more natural to add an extra word when resuming talking. Often people repeat the last word spoken after returning from a pause. So if you asked me what I wanted off a menu I might say "I'd like... I will have X", which would read quite oddly if you removed the ellipsis. Furthermore, the roots of the Lorathi speech pattern are in the denial of self. He's not talking about himself here. 

The Lorathi speech patterns I mention same as "accent". 

But fine, when he pledges to help Arya under the heart tree (imagery from when Rhaegar and Lyanna did the same). 

"“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.” 

It is an ideal place to give up the pretense of his false identity. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I make no such claim here, I'm arguing that your claim can't be proven by him trying to get out during a fire. I can remain agnostic as to whether he wanted to be in the Black Cells in the first place. 

The book establishes three characters in the black cells being moved against their will for doing something "very bad". 

That is what the books leave us with, if you claim he was captured on purpose, then that is the claim that needs be defended. 

It doesn't work both ways.

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The jailer is not in charge of catching criminals. 

Rugen is much more capable than the gold cloaks. 

If he (Jaqen) was arrested, who do you think had the better chance of catching him? 

And regardless, Varys knows much and more, he was in the cellars (disguised as Rugen) with Ilyrio around the time of Jaqen's arrest. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

On what basis do you conclude that? 

Same as above. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

A nightengale is never referred to as a "possession" or a thing he values "most". 

Context, context my friend. 

In the chapter we are given two things he finds especially sweet, Rosey and the Nightingale. 

A pig boy, along with a rose and a nightingale. 

The parallels are obvious and clear.

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

On what basis do you say that rather than YG's childhood in Illyrio's manse? Illyrio would have every reason to have such things rather than some complicated smuggling of baby-clothes & candy across the narrow sea for no good reason. 

Remember YG was born AFTER Aegon first came to Pentos. They had his things already, and the idea to switch the pisswater boy (truth) with the arbor gold (lie) only came up afterwards. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

YG has not been a child in Illyrio's manse for years, he has been with Jon Connington and has "put away childish things". Illyrio has been apart from him and his memories are of that child, but YG has moved on. 

A child has a natural connection to these things, the scent and taste is reminiscent for them. 

He (Ilyrio) gave him the candied ginger, but YG doesn't touch it. We know of another character who does chew on ginger however. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Why bother!? 

"Power resides where people believe it resides"

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How does sending a box of child clothes and candy accomplish that!? 

Same as above. They had it from the real Aegon besides. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So your entire reasoning is based on ethnic stereotypes, rather than a characteristic we hear applies to Elia specifically. But then in the dialogue you imagine with Rhaegar she's less "fiery" than any wife we've encountered and instead a complete dishrag encouraging her husband's desire to run off with another woman! 

She is described as meek, and weak of heart. She knows he could have married Cersei, or some other woman more beautiful and from a greater house. 

Remember Dorne has the smallest population of all the kingdoms, and is by far one of the least wealthy. The Young Dragon was said to exaggerate their numbers in his writings on the conquest. 

But where I take it from is Doran. He is present much like his sister, weak and sickly and passive. But underneath we find the truth. 

This also plays along with Jon's chapter in ADWD, about the baby swap. "Another woman..." 

So Elia appreciated his loyalty, and new he wanted three heads of a dragon. She could not predict he would start a war, or take her son away from her. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that. 

Deduction. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

King's Landing WAS away from the fighting when Rhaegar left, and ALL THREE heads of the dragon were necessary (that's why he started the war in the first place). 

Rhaenys was not as important as the prince who was promised. And as we know, she was not one of the three heads of the dragon, who's to say he didn't realize this. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Jaime was with Aerys, not Rhaegar's wife & daughter. And Rhaegar knew the primary duty of the KG was the king rather than the heir's family. 

That only means Rhaegar put less value on his daughter and wife than we could predict. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that. 

But we can figure it out through the text. 

For example people figured out Jon's identity from when he is speaking with Aemon about the Targaryens and his "mother". 

One hand is burnt, the other is red from the bird seed (or whatever). Fire and Blood. 

There is more of this related to Arya being a queen, and marrying a dragon, but that is beyond the scope of your questioning. 

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Dany didn't read the book before hatching dragons herself. 

Dany didn't plan to hatch a dragon, it was a momentary miracle. 

Planning requires reading, rituals, and preparation. Like at Summerhall. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's reason to believe the failure of eggs to hatch isn't due to any such "poison". 

I don't know if it was a poison, I just use that word to put blame on the maesters, (which is more likely than not, accurate). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So there is even less reason to bother with learning about any maester's "poison" as that was never used on the egg you assume the Alchemist has! 

We don't know what is in the book, and we don't know what the alchemist knows. 

But it is locked away for good reason, and now the alchemist has the keys from Walgrave. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would he? Some squires getting into a tussle is not important enough to reach the notice of the heir to the throne. 

Not just some squires, some squires and a high born lady from Winterfell of house Stark. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There is the alternate theory that it was a gesture of respect for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, who was undefeated but had not returned to the tourney. Loras declared Sandor the winner of the Hand's tourney as a gesture of respect, this was the closest Rhaegar could do without revealing she was the KotLT. 

Loras did not run away with Sandor afterwards, or attempt a bond of matrimony. 

Well he is gay, so he could have tried, but he didn't obviously. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't actually know that, even if it would be consistent with what we've heard about him. 

If he was cheating, the realm would know. Or at least suspect.  

Notice Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady in waiting. Ashara Dayne from what we know is incredibly beautiful, yet he made no attempt on her. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

WHO singles her out? Benjen razzes her, and Howland relays the story to his kids. We don't know of anyone at any other table noticing. 

The only reason it is note worthy is because of the people who single her out. If it wasn't note worthy it wouldn't be in the story. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't know how anyone at any other table would react. And if you think one sibling wouldn't razz the other because they're having a normal reaction, you should think again. 

The story would go like this: "Rhaegar's music filled the hall with tears, from the ladies especially" if that were true. 

Only Lyanna is mentioned. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's not established. Aemon thought he could be a head of the dragon for Dany, and he's not her sibling or even in a nearby generation. 

Rhaegar says, “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”  

As regards his new child. He needs another. What Aemon thinks does not matter in this case. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Barristan said it was not in Rhaegar to be happy. He only plays sad music on days ending in the letter "y". 

Does that matter to Elia? She has her newborn child, and Rhaegar can only think of the next child, something she is woefully unprepared to offer. 

And this music, the one that made the girl cry, the girl he crowned queen of love and beauty, and his need for a third child. 

Do you see now?

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's not "dismissing", that's answering in his own odd way which actually affirms the value of the question. 

In this case it is. She asks if he will make him a song, and he says he already has one. 

That means no, and he goes to the windowsill to make a tune. 

That music has nothing to do with their son, because he just said he would make a song for him. So whatever music he is playing, his mind is elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Abbreviations are how people naturally talk. Listen to some Lexicon Valley. Silver coins are called "stags", gold ones "dragons". Having to say "gold dragon" would be redundant. 

Terms like "I want my dragon", "Do you have my dragon?" 

Fit the theme of the prologue, which is dragons. The first word spoken is about dragons. 

The fellowship speaks of dragons, and Pate discusses his own dragon in comparison to real dragons.  

This is a line taken directly from the prologue: 

"He would have stood a better chance of hatching a real dragon than saving up enough coin to make a golden one." 

The comparisons are clear friend. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that. 

We know what we can figure out and deduce.  

The entire theme of the prologue is dragons, and the book locked away is on the death of dragons, the same thing that prompted Summerhall in the first place. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Alchemist did not return in that time with a literal dragon. There was no insinuation. 

Again with the metaphors. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know what he wants, other than that key. 

And the book. 

There is a reason we are told about the hidden book in Tyrion's chapter. 

There is a reason their is so much word smith about wanting a dragon and hatching a dragon. 

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Is Leo also Elia? 

No, but the phrasing he uses plays into the parallel. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That does not make sense as a use of the word "worth". A surrogate might help a couple birth a child, but you wouldn't take about said surrogate being "worth" a child. 

Rhaegar is no simple foster parent. He is a prince looking to fulfil a prophecy. 

In that sense, things are just a means to an end for him. 

I think he does love Lyanna, but the "worth" in this case is her ability to offer him the third head of the dragon (same as when he spoke with Elia). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If you don't know whether it was just prophecy, then you don't know if he was enamored. 

He could have chosen any woman, but he chose Lyanna. Because he was enamored with her. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No one accused Rhaegar of being a thief, nor do we have text of him denying being one. 

In this context, it does. He stole away Lyanna from Robert. 

She was his betrothed and he took her. There are many cases in both literature and history of a man stealing away a woman, or stealing her heart. 

Theft is a commonly used word in these reframes. It is also one that fits into the story being told in the prologue, that is why metaphors are not so obvious to figure out (Otherwise, what would be the point).  

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Pate wants to exchange a dragon, not to continue possessing one (much less three). 

Again with the phrasing from Leo. 

He wants a dragon for fifteen year old maiden. "Do you have my dragon?" he asks. 

These phrasings are deliberate. 

Oh, and they are taken from the text. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar is not called a "thief" for taking Lyanna, but a kidnapper and/or rapist. 

Contextual between the prologue and the discussion. 

Do you think he would say he would "kidnap" her? 

The reason these words are used is because everyone thought it was none consensual.  

In that case the act is done on to her. She is kidnaped, she is raped. 

But if it was consensual the act was done onto her betrothed Robert. She was stolen from him. 

 And Ned learned the truth at the tower of Joy. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Are they getting a divorce, even though that word doesn't exist in Westeros? And if her marriage was in dire straits, why would she encourage his interest in another woman? 

Have you ever lived in a loveless marriage? 

It is worse than getting a divorce. If she could then that means she could leave the marriage at any time. 

But without divorce, you are stuck with this person now and forever. Would you want a marriage like that, or would you do anything to fix it?

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Elia is the daughter of the Princess of Dorne. She's nearly as highborn as it gets in Westeros. She even has Targaryen ancestry. 

And she is no Cersei Lannister, or even Lyanna for that matter. 

She is a weakly woman who cannot provide three children. Aerys calls the dornish blood dirty, the dark hair and skin against the Targaryen pure looks.   

And again, Dorne is one of the poorest of the major kingdoms, with the smallest population (fieldable army). 

Compared to the woman Rhaegar could have married, she should be so lucky.  

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, you don't know that. 

If he was it would be spoken of, it never was. 

And again, don't forget about Ashara Dayne. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He plays sad music like he does on days ending in "y". We don't know of Elia even noticing Lyanna weeping. 

Elia notices many things, including him naming the stark girl the queen of love and beauty. 

The sad music he plays isn't for their newborn son, she knows this because he says it. So who else would he be playing it for? 

What else would you think if you were in Elia's position?

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

We have no wives thinking like that in the series. 

And Elia is given ample reason to, she is not Catelyn Stark. And Rhaegar is not Ned. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, you don't actually know this, and in this very moment he's going to be disloyal (which he was in a sense when he crowned someone else the QoLaB). 

Yes, which is why it stands out so much. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

It was not in Rhaegar to be content. 

And it is not on Elia to be content with that either. She is in this marriage one way or another. 

And don't forget the events at Harrenhall. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We have no wives who would want to do the "favor" of relieving their husband's guilt in that way. 

Rhaegar wanted the three heads of the dragon, what other husband could compare? 

This was never a normal marriage, and Rhaegar was never a normal man. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

A character's speech is normally determined by their own thoughts, not some formulation in another character's head. You don't need to tell someone something already in their head. 

In this case she would. 

Elia is telling Rhaegar what she thinks he believes, forcing him to admit the truth. 

It is much like self pity. Take when Jaime is speaking to Lancel in the sept. 

He wants him to admit his true feelings, so he goads him on. 

Elia does this under the guise of being understanding, but that is what she feels deep down as well.  

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's not a dragon. You just insist on making everything something else. The "rule of three" is extremely common, so you can't every instance onto whichever one you're interested in. 

The trios are the three heads. 

The three heads of the great Shepherd. The three heads are a common motif, but they are used to reflect the three heads of the dragon. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That hasn't happened yet in the books. 

It will. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If you believe R+L=J, then Jon Snow is also yet to be revealed as his "true self". He hasn't been revealed as Azor Ahai or TPTWP either. 

Jon Snow is not a mystery, he is not hidden from us. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why not Aegon VI, since Gregor was assigned to kill him and "missed"? 

Aegon VI knows of his own identity.  He even claimed it for a time as a child. 

Jon was never acknowledged as Rhaegar's son, and he never learned or knows about his true identity. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Given the large quantity of coins required to make it worthwhile to mint them in the first place, how could they narrow it down to one person? 

They know of Jaqen, and that he has gone rogue.  

It was given in the context of his name: 

"“I only came to find Jaqen H’ghar.”

“I do not know this name.”

Her heart sank. “He was from Lorath. His hair was white on one side and red on the other. He said he’d teach me secrets, and gave me this.” The iron coin was clutched in her fist. When she opened her fingers, it clung to her sweaty palm."

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How do you know that? Any man from Braavos is supposed to be able to recognize it. 

We have not heard of it being given freely by the faceless men to anyone. 

The Braavos recognize it, because they know it symbolizes the house of black and white, not because they all have one. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, we haven't heard any "rule" against giving someone the coin, and they don't respond to Arya's coin by noting there was any rule violation. 

I never said it was a rule, only that it does not seem like normal behavior for the FM to give out their coins to just about anyone. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You asserting there's evidence the Alchemist wants a dragon doesn't make it so. 

Well, there is. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How would you know that DOESN'T apply to the Alchemist? 

The slavers and Xaro weren't trying to hatch a dragon egg.  

Two very different situations. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

As an authority on myself, I can with complete confidence say you are wrong. You haven't provided ANY evidence the Alchemist is trying to hatch a dragon egg. You just keep asserting it and assuming it as a premise in your arguments. Imagine someone starting out from a position of agnosticism on what the Alchemist wants and what the "true identity" of Jaqen is. What evidence could shift that person into believing the Alchemist is trying to hatch a dragon?

Hahaha. There are idiots online talking about all sorts of things with no basis in evidence. 

There is a reason so many people believe it to be true, and its not from a lack of evidence, but from simple deduction.  

Now people can be totally wrong about the reasoning, but there is a reason it is so highly discussed. Least of all the chapter it was written in (you know, the one all about dragons). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

No, your quote didn't say anything about accent at all. 

Accent or Speech Pattern, I use the two interchangeably. 

But fine, Speech pattern if it works better for you. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Alchemist only appears very briefly and interacts with just one person. Trying to get Pate to steal & sell you a key is not at all like trying to get a NW recruit to slip something into your cage. 

I'll grant you he appears a few times, but we know the mask is fake, because we see Jaqen put it on (unless you believe he was using a glamour). 

But the original Jaqen follows the same outline as those making up a character for a play. 

Note he joins, on his release, a group called the "bloody mummers". 

Mummers in ASOIAF are play actors, trope artist who make up characters to play. He smiles like the sphinx, he makes up details from a nearby place like Hugor Hill, he enjoys coming up with names for the likes of Biter. 

One other thing, both Alleras and Jaqen are given the motif of liking to bath a lot. The former is always smiling like he knows some secret jib, just like Jaqen is always smiling in Harrenhall. 

We know the alchemist is not his real face because we see him put it on. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Does he really need to? Amory presumably told him what he saw Gregor get up to. 

Presumably, we just don't know (which is my point). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, I'm not making the claim about him wanting to get in the Black Cells, I'm agnostic on the question for now. YOU are the one making a claim and your evidence is weak. 

Ahh, again, you call my evidence 'weak'. 

But you see this is what we are presented, a man in the black cells being transported with two other criminals to the wall. 

Claiming he wants to be here is on the burden of the person claiming what is being presented is not true. 

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You think GRRM is encoding messages that you have decrypted, but it's just in your head. 

Ahh, metaphors, clues, and real actions put into the book are there for us to discover. 

Or would you rather me not use the text?

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's a number of different possibilities we can consider separately. The war of the five kings broke out relatively recently, and since he's been locked up that wouldn't seem to give him that much time to dye his hair. And dyeing half of his hair red for war doesn't really make sense either. If he's a fire-worshipper, maybe. But that doesn't have anything to do with Aegon. 

He asks about "the red war" as if he doesn't know what it is. 

He is not a worshiper of the red god, but the prophecy of the prince is tied to Azor Ahai. 

Remember, the reason he was called the prince who was promised is because he was born under a red comet.  

He does not know what the "red war" is, only that it is part of his destiny (he assumes). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There's no evidence she's Ashara (she even told a backstory inconsistent with that), and we have no evidence Ashara even knows the things you claim she's told Jaqen! 

A song of ice and fire? That is something most in the red keep would have heard from Rhaegar, no need to keep it between him and Elia. 

And besides it is part of a prophecy, not just random words. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I don't know, and neither do you. 

To the question about multiple faceless man, can you scout the distance from the iron islands to old town? 

There are not a herd of FM wandering around, they are expensive and rare. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

CamiloRP already explained it. 

I read Camilo's post, and they did not explain why it wouldn't be a rule, only that it doesn't have to be (which again is not on me to prove). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

No, he does that AFTER Pate has received and bit the coin (thus ensuring his death): 

He was not dead though. 

Here are a few lines from the kindly man: 

"“The golden dragon of Westeros,” said the kindly man. “And how did you come by this? We are no thieves.” 

“I would hope not. You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen.” 

“When I kill him he will look in my eyes and thank me.” “If he does, you will have failed. It would be best if he takes no note of you at all.” 

First he says they are no thieves (taking the key or the book counts as theft), then he says she may only kill those marked with death (unless you believe Pate was marked with death). 

Then he says you will fail if he looks upon your face (Arya says when I kill him, which would be the same time the alchemist showed his face to Pate). 

None of these things fit with the alchemist's behavior. 

If you believe it does, or Camilo for that matter, then it is on you to come up with why. 

As of now the evidence is on my side. 

Unless if you are selective where evidence counts. 

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Obsessed with prophecy, but not necessarily hatching dragon eggs, because he didn't have any nor did he have any reason to expect to acquire any. 

Summerhall was why he was obsessed with the prophecy to begin with. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You are just repeating yourself after I asked you to provide a quote. The text keeps failing to support your claims, that's why I demand quotes. 

I did just in this post friend. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

There's no evidence for this. All of his hair changes color without any dye. 

His face changes, hair is part of your face. 

Look at the masks in the house of the undying. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Not just, but INCLUDING. The same method could produce a face & hair like that. Jaqen dismisses "killing" his identity at the time, which does not really fit with that being his "true" identity he wants to reclaim. 

He says Jaqen is dead, as dead as Arry. 

Jaqen is a false identity he made up of which he is done using. 

 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aegon VI hasn't married yet, and you don't know the latter bit. 

I goofed. 

I meant to say Rhaegar is NOT like Aegon IV, meaning he is not serial cheater.  

It is why Barristan says he "loved her well" about Rhaegar towards Elia. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They would have been shocked by that even if he had been known to have a mistress in KL, as long as that woman wasn't Lyanna. 

Yes, more reason why this scene is important. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar always does that, because no time is joyous for him. 

And this is about Elia, not Rhaegar. What the music makes her feel and think of. 

Remember she asks for a song for their newborn, and he rejects her, but goes on playing music anyways. 

And after Harrenhall, who do you think she thinks he's thinking of?

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would she do that shortly after giving birth? 

Why would Rhaegar immediately say I need a third child in response to the birth of his newborn child? 

This wasn't a normal marriage. And as you said, crowning Lyanna was more shocking and insulting than taking a mistress. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Does it matter in this context? 

It does if we are going to say Gregor did it and everyone knew. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Even if I assumed he did have a dragon egg and went there (which I don't), you don't know that he didn't drop it off. 

The iron islands takes you down south to old town which is where he traveled. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Escorting war orphans around Westeros is not a responsibility or goal of the FM. Acquiring new recruits is. 

If it is (which I haven't heard) it is far from their primary responsibility, especially when they are on a job. 

Jaqen claims to have duties to fulfill, yet he is willing to drop them all to escort Arya to THOBAW (according to this idea). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

That happens after he pursues the KotLT and comes back with the shield. We have no evidence of her catching his attention prior to that. 

We don't know what happened with the KotLT, we do know what happened in Harrenhall however. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He noticed her after the KotLT, we have no evidence he did before then. 

We have no evidence that the KotLT was when he noticed her if that is the logic we are using. 

What you are doing here is called deduction. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Earlier you raised the possibility that he was solely motivated by prophecy rather than attraction and you have not disproved that theory. 

I said that was his motivation, but then why take Lyanna, wouldn't any woman do? 

So their was an attraction, at least from Rhaegar's side. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There's no evidence he thought there was any such requirement. I don't understand your "or". 

Or meaning he thought they needed to get married so the child would be legitimate. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aerys rejected her as too lowborn. 

Aerys was full of sh**

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that, and assuming R+L=J we know he wasn't. 

Before Lyanna he was, that is how everyone described him. And he showed no interest to her Lady's in waiting, among them one of the most beautiful woman in the seven kingdom. 

If he frequented brothels we would have known. 

And that is one of the reasons why Elia was so lenient on him to begin with. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't know, we would have to hear how he explained his actions. 

Giving her the title of Queen of love and beauty isn't subtle. Elia is allowed to see the implications. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She's described as "wild" like Brandon, not "nice and sweet". 

Ahh, but here we go back to the Elia comparison. 

Ned evens says Robert saw Lyanna as a sweet girl, but he never saw the iron underneath. 

Just as Robert didn't understand Lyanna, this was a girl who was kind to others. She likes riding horses, but that is separate from being sweet or cruel. 

She defends Howland Reed for that same reason, she is a compassionate and nice person, at least outwardly. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that. 

How would that fit what we know about her character (Lyanna that is). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You stating it doesn't make it so. You say all sorts of nonsense and are wrong quite frequently. 

Not really. Especially not after figuring out the access to the free PDFs online. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

WHY!? Wives generally don't want to give their husband a side-piece. 

Look at the context of their marriage and when its happening and who they are, don't be derivative. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If that's "of course", then why is the opposite also "of course"? It was entirely predictable that pursuing Lyanna would cause trouble, based on Brandon's reaction and everyone's smile dying. 

Elia in this moment is trying to appeal to Rhaegar, not think through long term consequences.  

Aerys having Brandon/Rickard executed, have Rhaegar hid away in the tower of joy, having him come back to take her child, she did not predict any of this, and that is not why she spoke. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

That's not what "devil's advocate" means. It's making an argument even if you don't believe it to test the strength of the opposing argument. So when I bring up Jaqen only trying to escape the cage when it's burning, I am playing devil's advocate for the view that he wanted to be locked up in the first place. 

 

"a person who expresses a contentious opinion in order to provoke debate or test the strength of the opposing arguments."  

Its not an argument you necessarily disagree with, but one to provoke a desired reaction. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

No, and we have repeatedly explained to you that you haven't. You must rely on the text to establish a parallel, otherwise it's one that only exists in your head. Imagining another dialogue scene to match an existing one doesn't count. 

I have and I did, there is more but it exceeds the limit of this reply. In the same way I discussed Ashara Dayne in another thread (not this one). 

Using "We" does not offer you more legitimacy, everything I point out comes from the text. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

It's not referred to as theft, and she wasn't even with Robert at the time (merely betrothed to him). 

He is stealing Robert's betrothed. 

It would be called Kidnapping or Rape if people believed it wasn't consensual, because it would be happening to her. 

The theft is happening relative to Robert. 

 

[talvikorppi]

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Remember, the reason he [Aegon] was called the prince who was promised is because he was born under a red comet.  

This has been niggling at me. Several times you claim Aegon was born under a red star. I went and checked. ( https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ is a great resource.)

This is from A Feast for Crows, Samwell IV.

Quote

"No one ever looked for a girl," he [Maester Aemon] said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!

Now, born/conceived might not be all that important, a comet ("bleeding star") is somehow associated with Rheagar's son, and that convinced Rhaegar that his son, rather than he himself, was TPTWP. But these kinds of inaccuracies undermine your assertion that your proposition ("theory") is all text-based. This is a nit-pick but you see the point I'm making, no?

We don't even know if the comet Rhaegar saw at the time (conception - apparently he didn't have sex with Elia very often because he was able to pinpoint the time of conception) was just a regular comet or the red comet we see in late AGOT and early ACOK. Maybe Rhaegar saw what he wanted to see, a regular (white) comet he interpreted as a bleeding star. We readers see something much more like a bleeding star in the red comet. About 16 years after Rhaegar died.

(Curiously, there aren't any other mentions of a comet around the time Aegon was conceived, six months minimum after Rhaenys was born, up to nine months before Aegon was born. A POV character, Barristan Selmy, who reminscences about Rhaegar and the Tourney at Harrenhal, doesn't mention anything about a comet before the false spring and the tourney. GRRM could've inserted something about it, if only to corrobrate what Maester Aemon says Rhaegar said. Grrrr, GRRM! :-D)

 

[butterweedstrover]

36 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

This has been niggling at me. Several times you claim Aegon was born under a red star. I went and checked. ( https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ is a great resource.)

This is from A Feast for Crows, Samwell IV.

Now, born/conceived might not be all that important, a comet ("bleeding star") is somehow associated with Rheagar's son, and that convinced Rhaegar that his son, rather than he himself, was TPTWP. But these kinds of inaccuracies undermine your assertion that your proposition ("theory") is all text-based. This is a nit-pick but you see the point I'm making, no?

 

 

No, I really don't. 

If you're trying to undermine any proposition I make, this is completely irrelevant. 

A bleeding star is red (bleeding as in blood). 

Could Rhaegar have been mistaken? Sure. 

Could Dany be the PWWP? Of Course. 

None of this matters because I am talking about what Rhaegar thought, which is clearly established. 

I've gone very in depth through many different facets of what I am explaining. If people want to use false equivalencies and what not that is fine. 

I could also bring up more stuff I found in AGOT but that won't matter since it's beyond the scope of this reply. 

I have provided evidence, saying this stuff 'could' be false misses the point. Many things 'could' be true rather than what is suggested in the book. 

But alas if the goal is to try and misconstrue or depict falsehoods as truth then there is nothing I can do about that. 

I thought what I was saying would be obvious, but much of the counter points are claims and theories that go against everything suggested in the text then used to say if this thing is not true, then this comparison won't work. 

But what I am trying to do is formulate all the different pieces together, if it conflates with some theory you believe will happen, how is that relevant to the discussion? 

edit: many things I have said, just in the post above for example correct or explain faulty assumptions, and things directly implied from the text, including direct parallels. 

Will people like yourself give me credit for any part of that? I doubt it, but then your goal shouldn't be lets gang up on one person and prove them totally wrong. 

Look at what's being argued and agree/disagree on a point by point scenario, not on which user is saying it.  

edit2: I get you are friends with other users, and I am still relatively new here, and it can be fun to find something that goes against your preconceived notions and find ways to discredit it, but if you're going to jump into the argument then be fair to both sides. 

I get push back for saying Pate and the swineherd prince are parallels because it is 'possibly' not the case, same with the alchemist and strider, same with the parallels of Arya and being married to a king (brought up twice in AGOT), same with Jaqen breaking from his speech pattern (from the text), same with Elia's knowledge of Rhaegar and Lyanna, same with the concept of theft/kidnapping (one is done onto the betrothed, the other the girl), simple dialectic disagreement that amount to nothing like making claims that the trios of the great shepherd isn't meant to symbolize anything, or that the dragon egg is not in the citadel, or that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, or simpler things like speculating on the movement of one character or another outside of a POV chapter. 

These aren't nitpicks, this is called being willfully oblivious to things written directly in the text then throwing your hands up and saying its not 100% confirmed so it doesn't work. 

If you'd like to be fair, you would challenge ridiculous notions that having nothing to do with my argument rather than just picking a side because it makes you feel better. 

[talvikorppi]

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Here are a few lines from the kindly man: 

"“The golden dragon of Westeros,” said the kindly man. “And how did you come by this? We are no thieves.” 

“I would hope not. You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen.” 

“When I kill him he will look in my eyes and thank me.” “If he does, you will have failed. It would be best if he takes no note of you at all.” 

You've picked quotes out of context, far apart in the books. Sure, there might be echoes. But listening to echoes and disregarding actual context - text close together that explain, inform each other - is disingenous.

What seems to me to be your key quote for establishing "the FM rule" that they must never look on the face of their victim seems to hinge on the last bit in the actual book quote I have bolded.

This should be seen in context. Only a couple of pages earlier the Kindly Man accuses "Cat of the Canals" of still being Arya of House Stark (and he's right). They (the FM) know she is Arya of House Stark of Winterfell.

The FM is an intelligence gathering organization (they want Arya to bring back three pieces of new information every time she returns to the temple), they've been at it for hundreds of years, home and away. They would know the First Men convention, the old way of execution that Northerners prefer and that Ned explains to Bran in the very first chapter (bar the Prologue) of the very first book in the series.

From A Game of Thrones, Bran I

Quote

[Ned to Bran] "Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

So, if you forget your own bee in the bonnet for a while and look at the bigger picture, or the actual context, it's not about some "FM rule", it's about Arya still yet failing FM training. She wants to look the victim in the eyes (as a kind of a travesty of what Ned taught), and the FM know that.

The "fail" the Kindly Man is talking about is not some FM rule, is specific to Arya. If she must look the to-be-executed man in the eye, she's still Arya Stark of Winterfell, remembering her father's lessons. So fails her FM exam.

 

 

[butterweedstrover]

36 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

You've picked quotes out of context, far apart in the books. Sure, there might be echoes. But listening to echoes and disregarding actual context - text close together that explain, inform each other - is disingenous.

What seems to me to be your key quote for establishing "the FM rule" that they must never look on the face of their victim seems to hinge on the last bit in the actual book quote I have bolded.

This should be seen in context. Only a couple of pages earlier the Kindly Man accuses "Cat of the Canals" of still being Arya of House Stark (and he's right). They (the FM) know she is Arya of House Stark of Winterfell.

The FM is an intelligence gathering organization (they want Arya to bring back three pieces of new information every time she returns to the temple), they've been at it for hundreds of years, home and away. They would know the First Men convention, the old way of execution that Northerners prefer and that Ned explains to Bran in the very first chapter (bar the Prologue) of the very first book in the series.

From A Game of Thrones, Bran I

So, if you forget your own bee in the bonnet for a while and look at the bigger picture, or the actual context, it's not about some "FM rule", it's about Arya still yet failing FM training. She wants to look the victim in the eyes (as a kind of a travesty of what Ned taught), and the FM know that.

The "fail" the Kindly Man is talking about is not some FM rule, is specific to Arya. If she must look the to-be-executed man in the eye, she's still Arya Stark of Winterfell, remembering her father's lessons. So fails her FM exam.

 

 

I give three quotes, not one:  

1. "“The golden dragon of Westeros,” said the kindly man. “And how did you come by this? We are no thieves.” 

2. “I would hope not. You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen.” 

3. “When I kill him he will look in my eyes and thank me.” “If he does, you will have failed. It would be best if he takes no note of you at all.”  

You can make similar arguments for the other two: 

(1) Stealing with the purpose of murdering your target is ok. 

(3) The third rule only applied to Arya because he wanted to teach her they are not butcherers. 

There are double meanings to any and all these things.  

Yes he doesn't want her to embrace her identity as a stark, but this is given in the context of the other rules. 

Each one was broken with distinct purpose by the alchemist: 

1. He takes the stolen keys  

2. He shows his face 

3. He kills Pate 

None of these have to be strict rules, but they are each individually established, and individually broken. 

In the same vein their philosophy makes it so that the facelessman are the tool, they are the sword of death. They do not decide who deserves the gift and who does not. For Arya to look him in the face and to show herself as the killer, she is associating the cause with herself. 

Remember Ned's words, the person who passes the judgment should swing the sword (paraphrasing). 

The facelessman don't pass the judgment, they should not reveal themselves as the one responsible for the victims death.  

In the context of those three quotes I was trying to present the idea that the alchemist is acting unusually for a typical facelessman.  

That was my only conclusion with that point, and it is supremely justified. Using the sort of logic above (in your post) just muddies the purpose and intent of the discussion. 

 

[talvikorppi]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

If you're trying to undermine any proposition I make, this is completely irrelevant. 

It's not irrelevant, because you claim to base your "theory" on the text and this is just but one instance where it's NOT based on the text. Rhaegar claims a comet (which nobody else mentions, not even Barristan Selmy who was there) was seen when Aegon was conceived (as per Maester Aemon, who corresponded with Rhaegar, so our only glimpse of what Rhaegar thought, in AFFC, Sam IV).

You claim Aegon was born under a bleeding star. There is nothing in the text to support this. There's no textual evidence of any bleeding star at the time of Aegons birth.

The point I'm making is that if you make up these kinds of things, it undermines the credibility of all your other claims, or "evidence".

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Will people like yourself give me credit for any part of that? I doubt it, but then your goal shouldn't be lets gang up on one person and prove them totally wrong. 

Hey, I'll give you credit for very original, creative thinking, exploring new ideas that have had me re-examining my own ideas, looking to the text... But you just cannot make parallels that are not in the text. You cannot make up backstories that "prove" your "theory".

I'm sorry if you feel "ganged up on". It was never my intention to make you feel that way, and you've generated a lot of discussion, that's something, no?

However, you should be aware that this site is full (well, not so much as it used to be) of people who know the books inside out and know when something is not in the text, like your imaginary conversation between Elia and Rhaegar (which is bordering on fanfiction).

So you should expect push back and scrutiny and examination on this site. It's not personal. I've been in the academia and believe you me, peer review there is far more brutal (though couched in "courteous" terms - aah, all the sarcasm!) and you just have to take it in and refine your hypotheses.

BTW, and this goes out to everybody, I really, really dislike the fandom moniker "theory". Because very, very few are theories with enough support (RLJ is an example of a theory. It has enough evidence and explains other things). Most are hypotheses. Nothing wrong with that, I like hypotheses. "Just don't call them theories!" I'm yelling into the void. haha :-D

 

[talvikorppi]

On 10/27/2020 at 2:06 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I love Fire and Blood. I definitely think GRRM could write a second book that spans from Aegon III to Aegon IV's death and it would probably be just as long as the first book (especially since he seems to really enjoy Aegon the Unworthy). That would also prevent the material from infringing on the Dunk and Egg tales.

Yes, very good of you to bring the thread around to its actual OP.

If Fire and Blood, part I, (what we got so far) ends with the minority of Aegon III... How can GRRM fit the rest, including the Blackfyre rebellions (3 or 4 of them) and the rest into ONE book? GRRM gardens, GRRM doesn't realise things like deadlines or completing his fantasies. It'll be (at least) three books. He loves the Targ family story, he'll write and write and write about it.

I only wish he'd write about the "main" story. You know, the ASOIAF book series.

It's his choice. Sigh.

[butterweedstrover]

40 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

It's not irrelevant, because you claim to base your "theory" on the text and this is just but one instance where it's NOT based on the text. Rhaegar claims a comet (which nobody else mentions, not even Barristan Selmy who was there) was seen when Aegon was conceived (as per Maester Aemon, who corresponded with Rhaegar, so our only glimpse of what Rhaegar thought, in AFFC, Sam IV).

You claim Aegon was born under a bleeding star. There is nothing in the text to support this. There's no textual evidence of any bleeding star at the time of Aegons birth.

The point I'm making is that if you make up these kinds of things, it undermines the credibility of all your other claims, or "evidence". 

That's fine as concerns my credibility, which in this discussion is very important. 

But the reason I may skim over details is because the details in those cases are besides the point. 

For example I thought (without second checking) that the comet was said to have coming during his birth. 

I missed the word conception, but for me that is not much a problem. My point was that Rhaegar believed him to be the prince who was promised. 

For me, I take that from the book. And the claim of a bleeding star (red). 

Rhaegar could be wrong, and perhaps the word "conception" clues us in to that fact, but I was just trying to get across that Aegon VI was believed to be the prince who was promised. 

Could Aemon be right? Well he is just as likely to be right as Rhaegar, but it could play out either way. 

Dany for all we know, is the prince who was promised (I don't think so, but whatever), it doesn't in the case of what I was speaking on. 

But if you say I should be sure to get the text right just so I don't discredit myself, I understand what you mean. 

 

40 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Hey, I'll give you credit for very original, creative thinking, exploring new ideas that have had me re-examining my own ideas, looking to the text... But you just cannot make parallels that are not in the text. You cannot make up backstories that "prove" your "theory".

I'm sorry if you feel "ganged up on". It was never my intention to make you feel that way, and you've generated a lot of discussion, that's something, no?

However, you should be aware that this site is full (well, not so much as it used to be) of people who know the books inside out and know when something is not in the text, like your imaginary conversation between Elia and Rhaegar (which is bordering on fanfiction).

So you should expect push back and scrutiny and examination on this site. It's not personal. I've been in the academia and believe you me, peer review there is far more brutal (though couched in "courteous" terms - aah, all the sarcasm!) and you just have to take it in and refine your hypotheses.

BTW, and this goes out to everybody, I really, really dislike the fandom moniker "theory". Because very, very few are theories with enough support (RLJ is an example of a theory. It has enough evidence and explains other things). Most are hypotheses. Nothing wrong with that, I like hypotheses. "Just don't call them theories!" I'm yelling into the void. haha :-D

 

I 100% believe most people here know the books better than me, and have the lines better memorized. 

And here is the part that must bother people: I don't consider this (of what I speak) some far off theory. In fact I am pretty certain its accurate which can make me seem arrogant or blind. These are not all my own ideas, but I've worked them out over time.

It could be wrong, but let me put it this way: If I am wrong (completely, not just on a few details) then I would have to really rethink my reading habits. In fact I would be very confused for a long time. 

There are fanciful theories, but I don't use those ideas in my head canon. I don't see this as a fanciful theory. 

So what do I mean by my certainty? Its just this.  

In the original outline, Jon and Arya were meant to be romantically coupled.  

Now their are two descriptions of Arya under a heart tree which is where marriage ceremonies in the north happen: 

In Book 1:  Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned’s cloak

So in this first scene we have Arya under a heart tree, under her father's cloak. 

This is how marriage works, the woman wears the cloak of her father, and replaces it with the cloak of her husband.  

Then, as they fall asleep, this wakes them: "When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay"

It surrounds both children, but (persumably) it is Arya who crawls out from under her father's cloak because of the morning (the dragon's breath). 

If we say that Jon is a Targaryen, was he a Targaryen when he was paired with Arya in the first outline? I don't know, which is were the more hardcore fans can jump in. 

But I do see (now) a connection between Arya and marrying a Targaryen (If not Jon, then someone else). 

When Arya awakes Ned tells her this: "“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” 

A dragon, a Targaryen, he is a king. 

So we go to the second time Arya is under a heart tree (if there are more, then I forget). This is in Harrenhall. 

She is with this man called Jaqen in Harrenhall. When we first read this book we know Harrenhall from the tourney. Lyanna, Robert, and Rhaegar are the three lovers. 

Lyanna and Arya have obvious parallels (again I say obvious because I think people would naturally agree), Gendry has obvious parallels to Robert (less obvious but again I believe people can see what I mean), and there is a third man who is exceedingly attractive as we are given two cases of woman around him giggling. He has white hair, and he is under the heart tree with Arya: 

“Swear it,” Arya said. “Swear it by the gods.” She tells him. 

He, pretending to be Jaqen of Lorath, drops his speech pattern: "“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.” 

"I" is breaking the Lorathi speech pattern. 

If you read Camilo's post they disregard this by saying we don't know that Lyanna and Rhaegar got married. 

But you see this isn't just determinant on that, it's a connection to this concept of marriage under the heart tree that Arya is a part of. In one case she removes (crawls from under) her father's cloak, and it this she is being sworn to by the weirwood tree. 

Now one last thing about the prologue: 

The pig boy, the nightingale, and the rose. 

For me that parallel to the Swineherd is undeniable. You may disagree but I don't see how GRRM could have wrote that on accident, with multiple confirmations (mentions of how sweet the nightingale music is, and how sweet Rosey is). 

The other is the Strider reference. We have a hooded man in a tavern watching our main characters. He goes by a false name, and call the group "Your fellowship". 

For you that could be just a coincidence, but for me (again, just me) its undeniable. 

So we have the alchemist and Pate being compared to princes in disguise. Who is the man who takes both of their identities? The man from Harrenhall.  

I do believe he is looking to hatch a dragon. There is a reason that entire prologue is centered around dragons. "There are dragons in essos, do you have my dragon, I will come back with my dragon, etc.). 

And it explains why Tyrion brings up the book on dragon's locked away in the citadel and explains the need for Walgrave's keys. 

Ok, for me this is all but confirmed. 

And I branch out finding more evidence, but that is the base of this theory.  

And the lines between Rhaegar and Lyanna are not made up, they are taken from the prologue. 

If we go off the Aegon VI comparison, then Pate is much like Rhaegar, he wants to run away with a fifteen year old maiden for a dragon. 

So the dialogue does match up. 

I guess I'm surprised that more people don't buy it. But it is what it is. 

But I will say, if nothing I claim is true (or the vast majority is wrong), I will be more than embarrassed, I just won't understand. 

 

[talvikorppi]

48 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

He, pretending to be Jaqen of Lorath, drops his speech pattern: "“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.” 

"I" is breaking the Lorathi speech pattern. 

What you have bolded is not Jaq'en but GRRM telling us about the situation, from Arya's POV. That is not "Jaq'en breaking his accent/speach pattern to reveal...." whatever.

It's Arya describing the situation. We have NO idea what the faceless man known as Jaq'en H'gar thinks. Him/Her being a faceless man, we have no idea what he actually looks like, how old he actually is, nothing. He might be a very experienced faceless man, say, in his mid-fifties, taking on the Jaq'en H'gar and then Alchemist face/identity. There's nothing in the text to confirm the contrary.

Given what little we know of the Faceless Men, it's just plain stupid to use Jaq'en's apparent age or looks to prove anything. The Faceless Men can apparently assume the face and body of their "face". Within limits, apparently. Arya is only given identities and faces of people about her own size. Jaq'en and the Alchemist are the same general size... Would Arya donning the face of Gregor Clegane make her a hulking 7' tall thing?

We do not know.

I'm tending towards NO. Whatever magic the FM use, it won't change the body-size of the FM too much. I could be wrong. Maybe GRRM hasn't really thought this through, not counted on a hectic online obsesseed community to try to figure everything out. Things he maybe intended to remain vague, mysterious and creepy. Emphasis on "vague". Hahahha, you've been had, GRRM! haha!

[butterweedstrover]

17 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

What you have bolded is not Jaq'en but GRRM telling us about the situation, from Arya's POV. That is not "Jaq'en breaking his accent/speach pattern to reveal...." whatever.

It's Arya describing the situation. We have NO idea what the faceless man known as Jaq'en H'gar thinks. Him/Her being a faceless man, we have no idea what he actually looks like, how old he actually is, nothing. He might be a very experienced faceless man, say, in his mid-fifties, taking on the Jaq'en H'gar and then Alchemist face/identity. There's nothing in the text to confirm the contrary.

Given what little we know of the Faceless Men, it's just plain stupid to use Jaq'en's apparent age or looks to prove anything. The Faceless Men can apparently assume the face and body of their "face". Within limits, apparently. Arya is only given identities and faces of people about her own size. Jaq'en and the Alchemist are the same general size... Would Arya donning the face of Gregor Clegane make her a hulking 7' tall thing?

We do not know.

I'm tending towards NO. Whatever magic the FM use, it won't change the body-size of the FM too much. I could be wrong. Maybe GRRM hasn't really thought this through, not counted on a hectic online obsesseed community to try to figure everything out. Things he maybe intended to remain vague, mysterious and creepy. Emphasis on "vague". Hahahha, you've been had, GRRM! haha!

Well I'm sorry about bolding that then. I want to show that he is pledging by the heart tree.

What I wanted to emphasize is the "I" 

“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.”  

That goes against Lorathi speech patterns. 

Wider to my point, he enjoys coming up with names and backgrounds. 

He does so with Biter, and he is similar to Hugor Hill in that he picks a place near where he is familiar with (Lorath is near Braavos) and makes up a background just as he makes up an accent. 

He is smiling all the time, just like Alleras, and we are told Alleras smiles all the time like he/she knows a jib that others are not aware of. 

You're right we don't know his age, but Arya is the POV where he is called young. 

Her father in his thirties, so it would have to below thirty.  

 

edit: I know I've brought this up a hundred times, but I want to reiterate what follows after he pledges to help her under the heart tree. 

"He has sworn. “Even if I named the king . . .”

“Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.” He knelt beside her, so they were faceto-face, “A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?”

Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl . . . she makes a jest.” 

It did not need to phrased like that, and given everything else I have presented, it fits with the larger picture. 

Also note the show changed this phrasing even though they had the scene where Arya says his name. 

Arya asks, "even a king". 

He assumes she means Joffrey. 

Then she gives his name. 

Of course she doesn't know who he truly is, but there is a clever word play at work.  

Remember how he is smiling all the time, just like Alleras? 

Well if his only worry was death, then he would not seem more distraught than in the burning barn (where he near died). 

But inadvertently she calls him a king, which is his secret (identity) just as Alleras has her own secret identity. 

[FictionIsntReal]

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

So you think they use them as wights? turn them into Others?

I don't know precisely, I just don't think they are agriculturalists of carbon-based lifeforms.

Quote

magically changing their race seems too fantastical for ASOIAF, adn George thinks about this things, as he took out a Tyrion chapter because it was too fantastical

The fantastical exists in this world, but it won't necessarily get a chapter (particularly not a Tyrion chapter).

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Red for the sun, for fire, for dorne.

I don't recall other examples of people dyeing their hair to abstractly represent a region. YG purports to dye his hair blue because his mother did, as that was popular in Tyrosh.

Quote

That still counts you know. This discussion is purely diction based, but inadvertently agreeing to a claim associates that claim with yourself.

Varys wasn't even present when YG told the story to Tyrion. He can't be "agreeing" to something he hasn't heard.

Quote

All I am saying is we are never given one moment where Gregor was known to be asked of his guilt, it is only ever assumed until the trial with Oberyn. If he was the books never tells us.

Yeah, people didn't dare accuse Gregor to his face. But since he admitted to it, and Tywin confirmed the story privately to Tyrion, I don't know what you're disputing. Gregor could be mistaken about the identity of the child (he's not smart and killed Beric twice without seeming to notice there was anything odd about that), but there's really no reason to think he's lying (again, there was SOME child of that age with a smashed head people saw).

Quote

The Lorathi speech patterns I mention same as "accent".

No, an accent is not the same as a speech pattern. That speech pattern is associated with the nobility of Lorath, who consider it vulgar to refer to themselves. A regional accent doesn't require any sort of logic like that, it's just the way the people around you sound and so you wind up sounding similar without even thinking about it.

Quote

imagery from when Rhaegar and Lyanna did the same

Again, that's not a scene in the text, just your imagination.

Quote

It is an ideal place to give up the pretense of his false identity.

He doesn't give up his identity then, he does it later when he says it's time for his life to end, which is as easy for him as changing a name.

Quote

if you claim he was captured on purpose, then that is the claim that needs be defended

AGAIN I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT, DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT THE WORD "AGNOSTIC" MEANS!?

Quote

Rugen is much more capable than the gold cloaks

At spying, certainly. At arresting people? Not obviously.

Quote

If he (Jaqen) was arrested, who do you think had the better chance of catching him?

In a literal sense, probably not a eunuch who isn't in especially good shape. More seriously, Jaqen can just change his face shortly after committing a crime, so if anyone observed him committing one there would presumably have been very little time between that and him being arrested. I don't think he was caught in any in any kind of extended police operation.

Quote

Varys knows much and more, he was in the cellars (disguised as Rugen) with Ilyrio

He was with Illyrio conspiring, not interrogating prisoners.

Quote

around the time of Jaqen's arrest

I don't think we know when he was arrested.

Quote

The parallels are obvious and clear

Your story of the swineherd does not appear in the text of ASoIaF, instead there is an entirely different story of Pate the pig boy who is not a prince and does not have those items. And indeed the actual Pate doesn't possess either, he is attempting to obtain only one out of the two. I deny the "obvious and clear" parallel. It is another example of you trying to twist fragments of the text to fit your schema and them not really fitting.

Quote

Remember YG was born AFTER Aegon first came to Pentos

I don't remember any such thing. That's not in the text. And in your imaginary scenario, why would Rhaegar send his son to Pentos (and Illyrio) specifically, even though Viserys didn't go there first?

Quote

A child has a natural connection to these things, the scent and taste is reminiscent for them.

Bull. I wouldn't be able to recognize my clothes from when I was 5, much less an infant as you (but not Tyrion, who actually saw them) claim these to be.

Quote

He (Ilyrio) gave him the candied ginger, but YG doesn't touch it

Illyrio gave him the candied ginger because he remembered him always liking it. Why would he be sending it to YG if he only remembers an entirely different kid liking that!?

Quote

"Power resides where people believe it resides"

No one thinks it resides in a child's clothes & candied ginger!

Quote

They had it from the real Aegon besides.

Why hang on to it? Does candied ginger even last that long?

Quote

But where I take it from is Doran. He is present much like his sister, weak and sickly and passive

Doran has gout. That's a rich man's disease from excessive consumption. It's not a matter of having a frail constitution.

Quote

So Elia appreciated his loyalty

No evidence of that, and going after Lyanna is itself disloyal.

Quote

She could not predict he would start a war, or take her son away from her.

Lyonel Baratheon started a war when a betrothal was broken, did she not pay attention during her history lessons?

Quote

Deduction.

Chemically-enhanced imagination.

Quote

Rhaenys was not as important as the prince who was promised.

ALL THREE were important enough for him to spark a war. If he thought there was any risk, he would not let his trio be reduced to a duo.

Quote

And as we know, she was not one of the three heads of the dragon, who's to say he didn't realize this.

Rhaegar was wrong repeatedly, including right as he rode off to battle because he was sure he would win. That's why none of his family was moved from KL. You simply imagine he moved ONE of them, and not another he was on record as regarding as one of the three heads (you just imagine he changed his mind based on no evidence), though there is nothing to indicate he did so.

Quote

hat only means Rhaegar put less value on his daughter and wife than we could predict.

Less value on his wife, I can buy. She wasn't essential to his further plans. But Rhaenys as the first head of the dragon WAS.

Quote

For example people figured out Jon's identity from when he is speaking with Aemon about the Targaryens and his "mother".

I thought people figured it out from Ned's dream and thoughts, Dany's vision, the KotLT story and other such reflections of the past. Jon doesn't actually know anything about his mother.

Quote

One hand is burnt, the other is red from the bird seed (or whatever). Fire and Blood.

What?

Quote

There is more of this related to Arya being a queen, and marrying a dragon, but that is beyond the scope of your questioning.

Good, because I don't buy that either.

Quote

Planning requires reading, rituals, and preparation. Like at Summerhall.

You don't actually know what happened there.You don't actually know what happened there. The details have deliberately been kept a mystery.

Quote

I don't know if it was a poison, I just use that word to put blame on the maesters, (which is more likely than not, accurate).

You don't actually know what is "more likely than not".

Quote

We don't know what is in the book, and we don't know what the alchemist knows.

Another instance of you saying something correct, so I owe you a kudos.

Quote

Not just some squires, some squires and a high born lady from Winterfell of house Stark.

Ok, Lyanna is higher-born than them, but a highborn person upbraiding some rando squires is not notable.

Quote

If he was cheating, the realm would know. Or at least suspect.

People don't always know, or even suspect.

Quote

Ashara Dayne from what we know is incredibly beautiful, yet he made no attempt on her

You don't actually know that latter bit.

Quote

The only reason it is note worthy is because of the people who single her out. If it wasn't note worthy it wouldn't be in the story.

Again, WHO singles her out? Two people sitting at her table. And Lyanna had recently helped Howland out with the squires, it makes absolute sense he'd be paying more attention to her than the typical person would.

Quote

The story would go like this: "Rhaegar's music filled the hall with tears, from the ladies especially" if that were true.

The story isn't about the whole hall, it's about Howland Reed, who had just recently had an important encounter with Lyanna. Howland doesn't care about the other ladies (I know there's a mention of Ashara, but that's because of Brandon & Ned's involvement).

Quote

Does that matter to Elia?

She would have already learned it. She'd even given him a child earlier.

Quote

And this music, the one that made the girl cry

Again, we don't know Elia is even aware of that.

Quote

Do you see now?

I don't see that you've established the things you claim, you just assume them.

Quote

That music has nothing to do with their son, because he just said he would make a song for him. So whatever music he is playing, his mind is elsewhere.

If I asked someone if they would create a song, and they replied the song already existed, and then started playing a song, my first assumption would be that the song they were playing was the one they referred to as already existing.

Quote

The comparisons are clear friend.

There is talk about dragons, that doesn't do any establishing of Pate as a parallel to Rhaegar.

Quote

the book locked away is on the death of dragons

We actually don't know what the contents of the book are and whether they would be of any use in hatching a dragon.

Quote

And the book

You don't know that's what the Alchemist wants.

Quote

There is a reason we are told about the hidden book in Tyrion's chapter.

The Alchemist is independent of Tyrion's chapters, and there is a LOT of stuff in his chapters.

Quote

No, but the phrasing he uses plays into the parallel.

How is it a "parallel" if multiple different characters are claiming lines to ascribe to Elia (but don't read, because there is no text for them), and in different times & places?

Quote

I think he does love Lyanna, but the "worth" in this case is her ability to offer him the third head of the dragon (same as when he spoke with Elia).

Again, that's not how people use the word "worth". It's more commonly used the way the Alchemist uses it: as a comparison of exchange value.

Quote

He could have chosen any woman, but he chose Lyanna. Because he was enamored with her.

You don't know if that was the reason, or because he believed prophecy designated her for that role.

Quote

In this context, it does. He stole away Lyanna from Robert.

They were betrothed but never married, and she wasn't physically in his presence. Lyonel Baratheon did not accuse Jenny of Oldstones of being a "thief" as far as we know, instead he blamed the crown for breaking its word.

Quote

stealing her heart

That is a common phrase, but such people are not typically called "thieves", any more than a "stolen glance" or base in baseball is theft.

Quote

He wants a dragon for fifteen year old maiden. "Do you have my dragon?" he asks.

He wants to obtain a dragon to trade in exchange for a maiden. And even you haven't claimed Rhaegar ever said "Do you have my dragon".

Quote

Contextual between the prologue and the discussion.

The prologue and the discussion are in entirely different books, in different places, at different times, and with different characters. There is no shared context.

Quote

Do you think he would say he would "kidnap" her?

I don't know what exact phrasing he would use, but I don't think he would call it "theft". Only a wildling might use such terms.

Quote

everyone thought it was none consensual.  

In that case the act is done on to her. She is kidnaped, she is raped.

Have you ever heard of "the rape of the sabine women"? Absconding with a woman used to be called "rape" regardless of consent (and conversely, it's impossible for a westerosi man to "rape" his wife). That's why there's a famous comedic poem titled "The Rape of the Lock" about a lock of hair (nobody has sex with the hair, regardless of consent).

Quote

It is worse than getting a divorce.

The societies which made divorce nearly impossible to obtain disagreed. To them a marriage was a nigh-unbreakable bond in which both parties are united by a shared interest in their children. Permitting a man to abandon his wife & child would be to betray the other half of the marriage.

Quote

Would you want a marriage like that, or would you do anything to fix it?

From the wife's perspective, encouraging her husband to focus on a different & younger woman is not "fixing" the marriage. It is the man prioritizing someone else and you getting nothing.

Quote

The sad music he plays isn't for their newborn son, she knows this because he says it

That's not technically true, as I noted above.

Quote

What else would you think if you were in Elia's position?

"Goddamn this asshole".

Quote

And Elia is given ample reason to

What reason is that?

Quote

she is not Catelyn Stark

Catelyn isn't held out as unusually jealous or vindictive. Instead Cersei thinks she must be pathetic not to have murdered Jon.

Quote

And it is not on Elia to be content with that either

We don't get any comparable claim about Elia as we do from Barristan saying it was not in Rhaegar to be happy.

Quote

Rhaegar wanted the three heads of the dragon, what other husband could compare?

Rhaegar doesn't necessarily get whatever he wants. Alicent Hightower wasn't as highborn as Elia, but she still insisted on exclusively looking out for her children and not her husband's other offspring (even though Rhaenyra was legitimate & older). In this respect, Alicent is a normal Westerosi noblewoman.

Quote

Elia is telling Rhaegar what she thinks he believes, forcing him to admit the truth.

Why would she force him to do that!?

Quote

Take when Jaime is speaking to Lancel in the sept

What are you referring to?

Quote

Elia does this under the guise of being understanding, but that is what she feels deep down as well.

Elia is not Rhaegar, why does SHE feel he needs to run off with Lyanna?

Quote

The three heads are a common motif, but they are used to reflect the three heads of the dragon.

That latter bit has not been established. Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch & Vargo Hoat are three commanders sent by Tywin to ravage the riverlands, but they don't have anything to do with the three heads of the dragon. Nor do they correspond to the three dogs on the Clegane arms, despite one of them being a Clegane.

Quote

Jon Snow is not a mystery, he is not hidden from us.

He's only been revealed on the show. In the books he's in the same position are your imagined Aegon VI.

Quote

Aegon VI knows of his own identity.  He even claimed it for a time as a child.

So what? A missed apple for a missed attempt on a baby's life is a clearer parallel than wormy apple=Arya (nothing to do with her ancestry) and second hit apple=Aegon VI (unless you think Gregor actually did kill the real Aegon).

Quote

They know of Jaqen, and that he has gone rogue.

They might know of the actual FM posing as Jaqen, but that doesn't mean they know Jaqen's name. And it hasn't been established that he's gone "rogue" or that they know any such things, so stop asserting it when making your argument.

Quote

We have not heard of it being given freely by the faceless men to anyone.

We haven't heard of a multitude of Faceless Men, and didn't know all that many Braavosi until Arya arrived there. And I don't think the coin is given "freely", instead it is an indicator that an FM has taken a special interest in someone. But any FM can have such a coin.

Quote

The Braavos recognize it, because they know it symbolizes the house of black and white, not because they all have one.

If they'd never heard of such a coin, and someone just showed a coin with that image, it wouldn't necessarily mean anything. There's  a fixed cost to setting up a mint, but anyone could create such a design. It's because this is a widely known thing in Braavos that any Braavosi knows what to do.

Quote

only that it does not seem like normal behavior for the FM to give out their coins to just about anyone

Based on all the hundreds of other Faceless Men we've met?

Quote

The slavers and Xaro weren't trying to hatch a dragon egg.  

Two very different situations.

Again, this relies on your ASSUMPTION that the Alchemist is trying to hatch a dragon egg. You can't assume your conclusion in order to prove it! That's the logical fallacy known as "begging the question". And it doesn't change the fact that they wanted a literal dragon, but weren't Targaryens.

Quote

But fine, Speech pattern if it works better for you.

They are different in a relevant way. Stumbling over your words and grammar is common even if you're not "faking" anything (and GRRM could even do it accidentally). An accent slipping is different.

Quote

but we know the mask is fake, because we see Jaqen put it on (unless you believe he was using a glamour)

The Alchemist's face is certainly fake, as is Pate's, as is Jaqen's.

Quote

Note he joins, on his release, a group called the "bloody mummers"

So do Rorge & Biter. They're all Aegon VI!

Quote

One other thing, both Alleras and Jaqen are given the motif of liking to bath a lot

Leo said "at least you bathe" while insulting Alleras. He didn't say "a lot".

Quote

Claiming he wants to be here is on the burden of the person claiming what is being presented is not true.

There is no one making that claim, you just haven't DISPROVEN the claim. So the proper stance is to be agnostic on the question.

Quote

He is not a worshiper of the red god

The persona of "Jaqen" specifically insists on repaying debts to the red god.

Quote

He does not know what the "red war" is, only that it is part of his destiny (he assumes).

You assume, you don't know any of this.

Quote

That is something most in the red keep would have heard from Rhaegar

I don't recall there being anyone else in the Red Keep we hear of him telling.

Quote

To the question about multiple faceless man, can you scout the distance from the iron islands to old town?

It's not as far away as Braavos, but it's a ways away. And we know this FM changed his face after Harrenhal, then changed his face again after killing Pate. I would expect carrying out a contract on Pyke to result in another changed face rather than remaining as the Alchemist. I suppose he could have changed from the Alchemist to something else and then changed back, but then I don't know why he'd switch to the Alchemist first rather than whatever he'd use on Pyke.

Quote

I read Camilo's post, and they did not explain why it wouldn't be a rule, only that it doesn't have to be

Here is a quote from the kindly man: "Cat of the Canals is known to many. If she is seen to have done this deed, it might bring down trouble on Brusco and his daughters. It is time you had another face." He doesn't say it's a rule to NEVER be seen, just that Arya as Cat was seen by many during her training. It is an entirely pragmatic rule, and since the Alchemist was not known to "many", and Pate died right after seeing him, none of the same logic applied and in fact nobody did recognize the Alchemist (except readers).

Quote

“When I kill him he will look in my eyes and thank me.” “If he does, you will have failed. It would be best if he takes no note of you at all.”

Her target, the old man, is a businessman. He usually has people around him. If he is looking at Arya as he dies and thanking her, then he is publicly indicating that she killed him. Which is not at all what the HoBaW want, as indicated in my previous paragraph. Pate met the Alchemist alone, and did not get to indicate to anyone that the Alchemist had assassinated him. That is why the Alchemist is able to steal his identity with no one (but the reader) knowing!

Quote

I did just in this post friend.

You still haven't provided a quote about Jaqen's age.

Quote

His face changes, hair is part of your face.

Yes, that's how he could get that hair in the first place without using any dye.

Quote

Jaqen is a false identity he made up of which he is done using.

Just like he was done with the Alchemist after killing Pate. They are both false faces.

Quote

I meant to say Rhaegar is NOT like Aegon IV, meaning he is not serial cheater.  

It is why Barristan says he "loved her well" about Rhaegar towards Elia.

I should note that Aegon IV's dislike of his wife extended beyond merely cheating on her. She would have been happy to have their marriage ended because she was pious and didn't approve of incest. She, Aemon & Daeron II all opposed him on various things.

Quote

And this is about Elia, not Rhaegar. What the music makes her feel and think of.

Precisely. She is less likely to be thinking of Lyanna than Rhaegar is because she's never interacted with her.

Quote

Remember she asks for a song for their newborn, and he rejects her

I would not describe that as "rejecting her".

Quote

And after Harrenhall, who do you think she thinks he's thinking of?

I don't know that Elia is thinking of anyone in  particular, and neither do you.

Quote

Why would Rhaegar immediately say I need a third child in response to the birth of his newborn child?

Rhaegar is obsessed with prophecy and he has just decided Aegon is TPTWP, and since the dragon has three heads there must be another. Elia is not Rhaegar and would not think along the same lines.

Quote

And as you said, crowning Lyanna was more shocking and insulting than taking a mistress.

So Elia responds to that shocking insult by suggesting that Rhaegar take Lyanna as a mistress?

Quote

It does if we are going to say Gregor did it and everyone knew.

Whether Gregor carried the body down himself or the bodies were recovered later does not matter in this context. We know Tywin sent Gregor & Amory to scale Maegor's holdfast (and his reasoning why), we know that Elia and (what appeared to be) her two children were found dead, we know Amory had to make excuses for his sloppiness to Tywin afterward and we can figure Amory would have been aware of what Gregor was up to, Tywin admits to Tyrion what Gregor did even while saying they'll shift all blame to the deceased Amory, and Gregor himself confesses.

Quote

The iron islands takes you down south to old town which is where he traveled.

We don't actually know what route the Alchemist travelled between first appearing to Arya and when we later see him with Pate. Harrenhal is closer to the east coast than the west coast, and given how much faster travel is by ship rather than land he likely just headed to the east coast, then sailed around that coast to reach Oldtown rather than going to the Iron Islands first.

Quote

If it is (which I haven't heard)

The Waif says that her father gave her to the FM as part of his payment for them killing his wife. I will admit that I was using "the FM" to refer to the institution and perhaps could have used "the HoBaW" instead to distinguish agents assigned to kill people from the recruiting function. But since the HoBaW does seek & value recruits, it would entirely be in keeping for agents to send more that way. Military officers seek out recruits, and at number of places I've worked ordinary employees are offered bonuses for referring new employees.

Quote

Jaqen claims to have duties to fulfill, yet he is willing to drop them all to escort Arya to THOBAW (according to this idea).

If he's going to the HoBaW, he's not exactly going "rogue" is he? That would be a different matter from escorting her to Riverrun, which has nothing to do with FM business.

Quote

We have no evidence that the KotLT was when he noticed her if that is the logic we are using.

Ok, we don't know when precisely Rhaegar noticed her up until he crowned her.

Quote

I said that was his motivation, but then why take Lyanna, wouldn't any woman do?

We don't know the prophecy and how Rhaegar interpreted it, so we don't know if "any woman" would do.

Quote

Or meaning he thought they needed to get married so the child would be legitimate.

There's no evidence on that.

Quote

Aerys was full of sh**

Aerys was crazy, but he wasn't just making things up. The Lannisters have no Valyrian ancestry that we know of, and because they were part of Aegon I's conquest, they don't retain any title like "prince" or "princess" as the Martells do.

Quote

Before Lyanna he was

You don't know that.

Quote

that is how everyone described him

How did they describe him?

Quote

And he showed no interest to her Lady's in waiting, among them one of the most beautiful woman in the seven kingdom

We know he didn't crown Ashara, we don't know he "showed no interest".

Quote

If he frequented brothels we would have known

Now that is something we actually have some text about. From Ned "He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not". Not that Ned actually knew him well or had any basis for his thought.

Quote

Giving her the title of Queen of love and beauty isn't subtle. Elia is allowed to see the implications.

People at the time didn't understand the implications of that un-subtle gesture.

Quote

Ned evens says Robert saw Lyanna as a sweet girl, but he never saw the iron underneath.

So we have Robert thinking something about Lyanna but failing to understand the truth. That's not actually evidence she was "sweet".

Quote

this was a girl who was kind to others

Again, something you assert but don't know.

Quote

She likes riding horses, but that is separate from being sweet or cruel.

She and Brandon both liked riding horses. Some other things we know about Brandon: he liked bragging to Barbrey about how a bloody sword is a beautiful thing, he has to be physically restrained from going after Rhaegar after Lyanna was crowned, after she disappeared he went to Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die". That's the wild "wolf blood", which Ned notes got him & Lyanna killed. Catelyn recalls of Brandon that "his mirths were as wild as his rages", and that she had to prevent him from killing LF when they duelled.

Quote

She defends Howland Reed for that same reason, she is a compassionate and nice person, at least outwardly.

The quote from her is "That's my father's man". She's violently enforcing the feudal order... another similarity with Brandon.

Quote

How would that fit what we know about her character (Lyanna that is).

We don't know whether it's in her character to "twist the knife".

Quote

Look at the context of their marriage and when its happening and who they are, don't be derivative.

How does "context" make her far more eager to urge their husband to take a mistress than a typical wife, and who or what am I being "derivative" of?

Quote

Elia in this moment is trying to appeal to Rhaegar, not think through long term consequences.

WHY!? I don't think Alicent Hightower would ignore the long term consequences and push Viserys to do something which would slight her or her children, nor would Catelyn do the same regarding Ned's treatment of Jon.

Quote

Aerys having Brandon/Rickard executed, have Rhaegar hid away in the tower of joy, having him come back to take her child, she did not predict any of this, and that is not why she spoke.

This is true, and another time I have to acknowledge you avoiding falling on your face, and like an infant learning to walk that merits recognition. But even without those executions, it was entirely predictable there would be a shit-storm (even if not of that magnitude). Brandon already had to be restrained when Rhaegar had done less, and Robert Baratheon would not be able to laugh it off anymore.

Quote

Its not an argument you necessarily disagree with, but one to provoke a desired reaction.

It's to "test the strength of the opposing arguments" and I found your argument about Jaqen trying to escape wanting. Thus your claim is unproved and I remain agnostic on the question. The Alchemist is not trying to have a debate or test Pate's arguments, he's trying to convince Pate to sell him the key.

Quote

Using "We" does not offer you more legitimacy, everything I point out comes from the text.

We is CamiloRP and I. Other people have laughed at you but not bothered with the effort of addressing you. And your imagined dialogue between Elia & Rhaegar is not "from the text". If I claimed that Howland Reed defeated Arthur Dayne in single combat and my evidence was all copied from Brienne's fight with Rorge or Jon's with Quorin, that would not be "from the text", that would be me making up the fight between Reed & Dayne.

7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I thought what I was saying would be obvious

You thought wrong, as you often do. When your beliefs don't correspond to reality, every day can be full of surprises.

Quote

I get you are friends with other users, and I am still relatively new here, and it can be fun to find something that goes against your preconceived notions and find ways to discredit it, but if you're going to jump into the argument then be fair to both sides.

I wouldn't say I'm "friends" with other commenters here. Because you're new here you don't realize how common it is for people to pop up with crackpot theories that have negligible support in the text or are outright contradicted.

Quote

These aren't nitpicks

They are all weaknesses in your argument. Your argument does have a solid foundation, instead it is full of your own assumptions.

Quote

this is called being willfully oblivious to things written directly in the text

The swineherd prince and Strider are not "directly in the text", they are things you are bringing in from outside of it. You don't seem to understand what it means for something to be in the text and can't distinguish your assumptions in the claims you are trying to prove from shared evidence other people can reason based on.

Quote

If you'd like to be fair, you would challenge ridiculous notions that having nothing to do with my argument rather than just picking a side because it makes you feel better.

You assume someone disagreeing with you "picked a side because it makes them feel better" rather than that they are a person like you who comes to their own conclusions based on what they've read.

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

In the original outline, Jon and Arya were meant to be romantically coupled.

That part definitely seems to have been ditched. They are far apart from each other, and Tyrion. Arya is also too young without the aging process GRRM expected.

Quote

Lyanna and Arya have obvious parallels (again I say obvious because I think people would naturally agree)

Ned explicitly compares the two of them, but I don't think history is going to repeat itself. Arya is off doing something very different.

Quote

Gendry has obvious parallels to Robert (less obvious but again I believe people can see what I mean)

There's an obvious physical resemblance, but there seems to be less of one in personality (perhaps because he was raised as a smallfolk).

Quote

 He, pretending to be Jaqen of Lorath, drops his speech pattern: "“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.”

"I" is breaking the Lorathi speech pattern.

It is breaking the pattern, but he's swearing an oath to a Westerosi girl for whom the refined denial of self-hood in Lorathi speech would sound like not personally accepting the terms of the oath. If he'd said "a man" will do this, a literal meaning would be that any man could.

Quote

There is a reason that entire prologue is centered around dragons

The books always begin & usually end with magic. The prologue of AGoT has the Others attack, and the last chapter is Dany hatching her dragons. The first of ACoK has Melisandre magically surviving a poisoning, and the last isn't directly magical leaving the political plotline in Winterfell to go north with the Reeds toward a magical one. ASoS begins with another attack from the Others, and ends with the resurrected Lady Stoneheart getting vengeance. AFfC begins and ends with a Faceless Man meeting the POV character. ADWD begins with a skinchanger, but its epilogue only features talk of dragons (I read less into such talk than you) and no actual appearance of magic. Dragons are linked by the alchemist's guild to the return of magic.

Quote

I guess I'm surprised that more people don't buy it

Live in continuous surprise. Expect the sun to rise in the west and set in the east.

Quote

I will be more than embarrassed, I just won't understand.

You already don't understand, you just don't realize it.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well if his only worry was death, then he would not seem more distraught than in the burning barn (where he near died).

In the barn he was trying to get Arya to help him. Here she has taken his pledge to repay her and bound him to kill himself. He's not in imminent danger of death, he's just painted himself into a corner he didn't see coming. Arya isn't actually referring to him as a king, and she has no idea who is pretending to be "Jaqen".

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't know precisely, I just don't think they are agriculturalists of carbon-based lifeforms.

Unless they can magically fix their health problems, the unhealthy babies would not be to their preference, as they are harder to keep alive and they seem to want them alive.

 

Quote

The fantastical exists in this world, but it won't necessarily get a chapter (particularly not a Tyrion chapter).

Yes, there is fantasy, but it doesn't mean that there's all types of fantasy. We likely won't get reality-warping wizards. Even four legged dragons seem to fantastical for GRRM. And I think that the Others magically turning people into Others would be too fantastical for the series.

[butterweedstrover]

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I don't recall other examples of people dyeing their hair to abstractly represent a region. YG purports to dye his hair blue because his mother did, as that was popular in Tyrosh. 

Yes well, not everyone was raised in the same situation as YG. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Varys wasn't even present when YG told the story to Tyrion. He can't be "agreeing" to something he hasn't heard. 

That is unless you believe this story was made up independently by Ilyrio, they they worked together to craft it. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Yeah, people didn't dare accuse Gregor to his face. But since he admitted to it, and Tywin confirmed the story privately to Tyrion, I don't know what you're disputing. Gregor could be mistaken about the identity of the child (he's not smart and killed Beric twice without seeming to notice there was anything odd about that), but there's really no reason to think he's lying (again, there was SOME child of that age with a smashed head people saw). 

Gregor is a fool, but still the books never showed him admitting to the crime, everyone simply assumed. That is worth noting. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, an accent is not the same as a speech pattern. That speech pattern is associated with the nobility of Lorath, who consider it vulgar to refer to themselves. A regional accent doesn't require any sort of logic like that, it's just the way the people around you sound and so you wind up sounding similar without even thinking about it. 

Now this is being incredibly obtuse, you know exactly what I meant. You responded by mentioning the "she" is less important than self identifying possessive adjectives or nouns. 

Accents are not so easily derived from text, but speech patterns are. 

I provided an example and rather than acknowledging that, you just move on. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, that's not a scene in the text, just your imagination. 

It is in the text because it is written down. 

And its not two random discussions, the people involved are made very clear.  

Pate, the alchemist, and the fifteen year old maiden. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He doesn't give up his identity then, he does it later when he says it's time for his life to end, which is as easy for him as changing a name. 

He drops his accent while making a pledge under the heart tree towards Arya. 

This is the second time Arya is brought to a heart tree in a symbolic way. 

The first I said was when she was under her father's cloak, and her and Sansa awoke by the morning "dark red blooms of dragon's breath".

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

AGAIN I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT, DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT THE WORD "AGNOSTIC" MEANS!? 

I know what it means. 

But it is not on my side to proclaim evidence, as you put equal burden on both sides. 

The book establishes characters locked away being transported to the wall, who then escape (after Yoren dies) and go on their own path. 

If you say any of that picture is wrong, it is on that side to provide the evidence. 

Both sides do not have equal demands. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

At spying, certainly. At arresting people? Not obviously. 

He was in the dungeons with Ilyrio as Rugen, had anyone come their direction he would have locked them up. 

If Jaqen was arrested by the gold cloaks on the streets, then that puts an extreme burden of capacity onto them (even though Janos Slynt, their commander, is incompetent). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

He was with Illyrio conspiring, not interrogating prisoners. 

Yes, but he was in the dungeons nonetheless. Same as where we find the faceless man. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think we know when he was arrested. 

The same with his age, we don't have an exact date, but we have a range. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Your story of the swineherd does not appear in the text of ASoIaF, instead there is an entirely different story of Pate the pig boy who is not a prince and does not have those items. And indeed the actual Pate doesn't possess either, he is attempting to obtain only one out of the two. I deny the "obvious and clear" parallel. It is another example of you trying to twist fragments of the text to fit your schema and them not really fitting. 

It is very obvious and very clear. Books always take from other literature as symbolism, especially fairy tale classics.  

That is what good authors who read do, nothing is every self-contained to just their world. 

And it is obvious, I'm surprised you don't see it.  

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't remember any such thing. That's not in the text. And in your imaginary scenario, why would Rhaegar send his son to Pentos (and Illyrio) specifically, even though Viserys didn't go there first? 

Who's to say he wanted him to go to Pentos? He had him sent away, but after he died (Rhaegar) Varys could do what he wanted with the boy (send him to Ilyrio). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Bull. I wouldn't be able to recognize my clothes from when I was 5, much less an infant as you (but not Tyrion, who actually saw them) claim these to be.

Illyrio gave him the candied ginger because he remembered him always liking it. Why would he be sending it to YG if he only remembers an entirely different kid liking that!? 

Everything in the chest was ignored by YG, that's the point. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No one thinks it resides in a child's clothes & candied ginger! 

It's not about people, its about Ilyrio and Varys buying into the lie they set themselves. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why hang on to it? Does candied ginger even last that long? 

This is the taste baby Aegon liked, again they are trying to replicate the two. 

And yet YG never tries the ginger. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Doran has gout. That's a rich man's disease from excessive consumption. It's not a matter of having a frail constitution. 

He is described as meek and passive. It's not all about the medical condition. This is what he appears like on the surface.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No evidence of that, and going after Lyanna is itself disloyal. 

This is how his character is set up. 

Could he be a serial adulterer? Maybe, but that would go against his established character. 

It would be what's called a twist. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Lyonel Baratheon started a war when a betrothal was broken, did she not pay attention during her history lessons? 

Firstly Duncan did not try to run away with Jenny. 

Secondly Elia had no reason to believe that is what Rhaegar intended (going to the tower of joy). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

ALL THREE were important enough for him to spark a war. If he thought there was any risk, he would not let his trio be reduced to a duo. 

He thought he would win, yet he still left three white cloaks behind to guard Lyanna and their child. 

What about his wife and other child?

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar was wrong repeatedly, including right as he rode off to battle because he was sure he would win. That's why none of his family was moved from KL. You simply imagine he moved ONE of them, and not another he was on record as regarding as one of the three heads (you just imagine he changed his mind based on no evidence), though there is nothing to indicate he did so. 

Again the baby swap idea did not come from no where. It was first introduced to us though Jon's chapters, then again through YG. This is not some far fetched concept you would like to make it be. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Less value on his wife, I can buy. She wasn't essential to his further plans. But Rhaenys as the first head of the dragon WAS. 

His mind could always change, and again he left three kingsguard to protect Lyanna and her child, how many to protect Elia and Rhaenys?

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I thought people figured it out from Ned's dream and thoughts, Dany's vision, the KotLT story and other such reflections of the past. Jon doesn't actually know anything about his mother.

What? 

Yes, read about it. In the first book his hand was burnt by fighting the undead, and his other hand is drenched in red. 

Fire and Blood. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Good, because I don't buy that either. 

I just mentioned it in this post, and another on this page. So you have seen it. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't actually know what happened there.You don't actually know what happened there. The details have deliberately been kept a mystery. 

Ok, lets think this through for a second. 

Dany's pyre was a momentary idea. 

Summerhall was a planned event bringing a large part of the family together. 

You see the difference, I know you do. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't actually know what is "more likely than not". 

Yes it is: 

""If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marwyn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" 

Again there is a reason these things are talked about. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Ok, Lyanna is higher-born than them, but a highborn person upbraiding some rando squires is not notable. 

Yeah it is, high born girls are not suppose to go down with a bunch of squires (male).  

Especially noble is that it was in someone else's honor. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

People don't always know, or even suspect. 

This is what is presented to us. If you want to claim otherwise, you can show the evidence. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't actually know that latter bit. 

That would be massive if it were true, and yet we never hear a whisper about that. 

Again because it goes against what is established. 

If you want to say he did, then provide evidence. 

Otherwise we could say anything is true, we could say Aerys was faking his insanity and we don't know if it was real. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, WHO singles her out? Two people sitting at her table. And Lyanna had recently helped Howland out with the squires, it makes absolute sense he'd be paying more attention to her than the typical person would. 

It a story, Lyanna is made out to be brought to tears by the music. 

We have to incidents right now, her beating up the squires, and her crying to Rhaegar's music. 

These are all leading to the final event (the crowning). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The story isn't about the whole hall, it's about Howland Reed, who had just recently had an important encounter with Lyanna. Howland doesn't care about the other ladies (I know there's a mention of Ashara, but that's because of Brandon & Ned's involvement). 

Howland reed would not care what Lyanna does if everyone else was doing it. There is a reason that moment is highlighted. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She would have already learned it. She'd even given him a child earlier. 

And now their relationship is different. 

She can't offer him a third child, and she knows about Lyanna, the other woman. 

And who is to say she is accustomed to this man being sad on the birth of their children. Once could be a fluke, twice is a pattern. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, we don't know Elia is even aware of that. 

She was aware of Lyanna, that is what this all centers around.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't see that you've established the things you claim, you just assume them. 

There are things you figure out from reading the text.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If I asked someone if they would create a song, and they replied the song already existed, and then started playing a song, my first assumption would be that the song they were playing was the one they referred to as already existing. 

No, that wasn't the context of this discussion at all. 

Jorah says the song of ice and fire is no song he has ever heard before. It isn't a song, its a prophecy. 

Rhaegar dismisses her question, and goes to the window sill and drums sad music. He is not looking at Elia or the child. 

The music being sung is not for their son. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There is talk about dragons, that doesn't do any establishing of Pate as a parallel to Rhaegar. 

A fifteen year old maiden worth a dragon. 

"do you have my dragon"? he askes.  

The central motif is him deciding whether or not he is a theif. 

The whole chapter is filled with mentions of dragons.  

And then we have the alchemist, the secret prince. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We actually don't know what the contents of the book are and whether they would be of any use in hatching a dragon. 

We know the Maesters are responsible for the death of the dragons, and we know they have reason to lock it away, keeping only one copy of the book.  

They would even kill someone who were to find out (according to Marwyn). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that's what the Alchemist wants. 

The keys, the dragon egg, Balon's death. 

Yes, we can figure it out. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Alchemist is independent of Tyrion's chapters, and there is a LOT of stuff in his chapters. 

The book is mentioned once in the prologue by Pate, Tyrion's chapter is just used to expand on what that book actually is. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How is it a "parallel" if multiple different characters are claiming lines to ascribe to Elia (but don't read, because there is no text for them), and in different times & places? 

Who are these multiple characters? 

The first is Elia from the vision sequence, the second is the alchemist playing to Pate's wants and desires, same as Elia did. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, that's not how people use the word "worth". It's more commonly used the way the Alchemist uses it: as a comparison of exchange value. 

Yes it is, and yes it can be. Today that would be considered unbecoming, but not always. 

He wanted the girl for the prophecy, that was her worth. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know if that was the reason, or because he believed prophecy designated her for that role. 

Maybe, maybe not. But he had feelings for her, which is why he went after Lyanna in the first place. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They were betrothed but never married, and she wasn't physically in his presence. Lyonel Baratheon did not accuse Jenny of Oldstones of being a "thief" as far as we know, instead he blamed the crown for breaking its word. 

Why would be blame Jenny? 

Rhaegar took Lyanna from Robert, not the crown. He stole her away. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That is a common phrase, but such people are not typically called "thieves", any more than a "stolen glance" or base in baseball is theft. 

But taking a girl from her betrothed, he is stealing her. And he says, "I am no thief".

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He wants to obtain a dragon to trade in exchange for a maiden. And even you haven't claimed Rhaegar ever said "Do you have my dragon". 

Of course not, but that is what he wants.  

The dragon and the fifteen year old maiden. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The prologue and the discussion are in entirely different books, in different places, at different times, and with different characters. There is no shared context. 

There is once you see the role of the alchemist and Pate. 

Two symbols of a hidden prince, and Pate himself wanting to take away a fifteen tear old maiden for a dragon. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Have you ever heard of "the rape of the sabine women"? Absconding with a woman used to be called "rape" regardless of consent (and conversely, it's impossible for a westerosi man to "rape" his wife). That's why there's a famous comedic poem titled "The Rape of the Lock" about a lock of hair (nobody has sex with the hair, regardless of consent). 

I've read rape of the lock, and it has nothing to do with this. 
Everyone assumed Lyanna was taken against her will, which was the main conceit of the war. How do you think Ned reacted when he found the truth, do you think he went running to Robert?

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The societies which made divorce nearly impossible to obtain disagreed. To them a marriage was a nigh-unbreakable bond in which both parties are united by a shared interest in their children. Permitting a man to abandon his wife & child would be to betray the other half of the marriage. 

Yes, this is what society says. 

But what about a woman? If you married poorly, then you were doomed. That is why marrying well was so important. If a man became distant or unloving, that was the same man should be tied with for the rest of her life. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

From the wife's perspective, encouraging her husband to focus on a different & younger woman is not "fixing" the marriage. It is the man prioritizing someone else and you getting nothing. 

He already is fixing on another woman. And she has no way to control him, so she thinks it right to offer him his due. 

She should never have married the prince Rhaegar, and he was loyal to her. 

So she thinks, would it be so bad to give him this one thing, so he does not drift away for good? 

You can see it as foolish but you were not in her position. She was beyond lucky to marry Rhaegar, and Rhaegar was a dragon prince, not a normal person. 

And then there was the prophecy. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

"Goddamn this asshole". 

You are not Elia obviously. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What reason is that? 

She is not the best match for Rhaegar. 

She is meek and weak, not good for child baring, and comes from a poorer house, the title of princess be damned. 

She would always feel like she was holding Rhaegar back from having a better wife, she would always feel inadequate. 

I am sure Aerys made certain to remind her that when she birth a dark skinned daughter called Rhaenys. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Catelyn isn't held out as unusually jealous or vindictive. Instead Cersei thinks she must be pathetic not to have murdered Jon. 

Cersei is a more extreme version of Catelyn. 

Don't forget Catelyn was married to Brandon first, then to Ned. She was Rickard's key to southron ambitions. 

She was not a second thought like Elia. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't get any comparable claim about Elia as we do from Barristan saying it was not in Rhaegar to be happy. 

To be content with a husband obsessed with a prophecy she can't fulfil? How content should she be with that lot in life?

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar doesn't necessarily get whatever he wants. Alicent Hightower wasn't as highborn as Elia, but she still insisted on exclusively looking out for her children and not her husband's other offspring (even though Rhaenyra was legitimate & older). In this respect, Alicent is a normal Westerosi noblewoman. 

Alicent was a very very different woman from a very different time. 

The hightowers were wealthy, and she was a political climber, she was ambitious. She conspired and started a whole civil war, do not mistake Elia with Alicent. 

And in the formers case, her husband was dead. Rhaegar was well and alive and influential. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would she force him to do that!? 

So she can hear him speak it. 

She saw him with the girl at Harrenhall, she wants to hear it from his own voice now, something he probably doesn't wish to discuss with his wife.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What are you referring to? 

In AFFC when he wants Lancel to admit to sleeping with Cersei 

Say it, Say it. 

He knows its true, he just needs to hear the words spoken aloud.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Elia is not Rhaegar, why does SHE feel he needs to run off with Lyanna? 

She doesn't want him to do that, she has no way of knowing he plans to go hide away with her at the tower of joy. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That latter bit has not been established. Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch & Vargo Hoat are three commanders sent by Tywin to ravage the riverlands, but they don't have anything to do with the three heads of the dragon. Nor do they correspond to the three dogs on the Clegane arms, despite one of them being a Clegane. 

No, I said the motif of three heads. 

Not three people or three signs. Three heads. 

The three heads of the great shepherd, the trios.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's only been revealed on the show. In the books he's in the same position are your imagined Aegon VI. 

Jon Snow is the reborn head, the man who will be reborn. 

Aegon VI is the mystery head, the boy who was thought dead. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So what? A missed apple for a missed attempt on a baby's life is a clearer parallel than wormy apple=Arya (nothing to do with her ancestry) and second hit apple=Aegon VI (unless you think Gregor actually did kill the real Aegon). 

Who said anything about ancestry? 

The Apple fell in the water, Jon is a bastard, he never claimed his identity. 

Aegon was born a Targaryen. 

The arrow coring the apple is like the sigil of house Martell. 

A golden spear going straight through the core of the sun. 

The arrows were made of golden wood. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They might know of the actual FM posing as Jaqen, but that doesn't mean they know Jaqen's name. And it hasn't been established that he's gone "rogue" or that they know any such things, so stop asserting it when making your argument. 

Whatever he is doing is unusual, as I have established on this page (page 8). I'll repost it here if need be. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If they'd never heard of such a coin, and someone just showed a coin with that image, it wouldn't necessarily mean anything. There's  a fixed cost to setting up a mint, but anyone could create such a design. It's because this is a widely known thing in Braavos that any Braavosi knows what to do. 

If it was widely distributed, there would be frauds and fakes. This is a rare item not given to just anyone. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Based on all the hundreds of other Faceless Men we've met? 

Exactly, so you can't assume these coins are common or distributed commonly. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, this relies on your ASSUMPTION that the Alchemist is trying to hatch a dragon egg. You can't assume your conclusion in order to prove it! That's the logical fallacy known as "begging the question". And it doesn't change the fact that they wanted a literal dragon, but weren't Targaryens. 

Firstly, I already established none of them wanted to become dragon riders or hatch a dragon egg. 

Such pursuits symbolize Targaryen blood, Euron and Victarion have the horn, you can't compare them.  

As for the alchemist, we can conclude certain things through evidence, but that is not all from where his story starts. His story starts at Harrenhall, and Arya's well before that. 

We can learn much through evidence and connecting the dots. 

As for the dragon egg. We know there are not numerous facelessmen roaming westeros. 

We know the Iron Islands lead south to old town. We know Euron (we can conclude) had a contract with a dragon egg, and now someone is in the citadel looking for a dragon book. 

Pate, The Alchemist, the hidden prince, the dragon for the girl, yes we can conclude these things.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They are different in a relevant way. Stumbling over your words and grammar is common even if you're not "faking" anything (and GRRM could even do it accidentally). An accent slipping is different. 

Don't even try this, accents are difficult to derive through text. We are usually told when characters have accents. 

We were talking about his speech pattern, which is why you described it the way you did. Then I provide evidence and you don't respond. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Alchemist's face is certainly fake, as is Pate's, as is Jaqen's. 

No it's not, as I have discussed.

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So do Rorge & Biter. They're all Aegon VI! 

The level of disingenuity with this answer is beyond comprehension. 

You should be called out for it, it's not only belittling, it also ignores the entire context of the discussion. 

For shame. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Leo said "at least you bathe" while insulting Alleras. He didn't say "a lot". 

Neither is Jaqen said to bath a lot, only multiple times.  

These are parallels between the two characters. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There is no one making that claim, you just haven't DISPROVEN the claim. So the proper stance is to be agnostic on the question. 

Again, we are presented with a prisoner who gets out and pursues his own goals regardless of his jailors.  

That is what we are presented with, if you or anyone else comes up with something to contradict that, then provide evidence.

The two sides are not equal. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The persona of "Jaqen" specifically insists on repaying debts to the red god. 

GRRM said he was speaking of the three being saved from the fire. The red god is owed his debt. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't recall there being anyone else in the Red Keep we hear of him telling. 

Who is to say he only spoke about this to his wife? He had this idea in his head already evidently. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's not as far away as Braavos, but it's a ways away. And we know this FM changed his face after Harrenhal, then changed his face again after killing Pate. I would expect carrying out a contract on Pyke to result in another changed face rather than remaining as the Alchemist. I suppose he could have changed from the Alchemist to something else and then changed back, but then I don't know why he'd switch to the Alchemist first rather than whatever he'd use on Pyke.  

Well, I would guess he changed his face to the alchemist because he knew he was going to the iron islands and wanted that configuration in the first place. 

Either way it is most likely so that GRRM could tell us this is the same character as before. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Here is a quote from the kindly man: "Cat of the Canals is known to many. If she is seen to have done this deed, it might bring down trouble on Brusco and his daughters. It is time you had another face." He doesn't say it's a rule to NEVER be seen, just that Arya as Cat was seen by many during her training. It is an entirely pragmatic rule, and since the Alchemist was not known to "many", and Pate died right after seeing him, none of the same logic applied and in fact nobody did recognize the Alchemist (except readers).

Her target, the old man, is a businessman. He usually has people around him. If he is looking at Arya as he dies and thanking her, then he is publicly indicating that she killed him. Which is not at all what the HoBaW want, as indicated in my previous paragraph. Pate met the Alchemist alone, and did not get to indicate to anyone that the Alchemist had assassinated him. That is why the Alchemist is able to steal his identity with no one (but the reader) knowing! 

I discussed this already, so I guess I will repost what I said about the alchemist not acting like a proper faceless man:  

I give three quotes, not one:  

1. "“The golden dragon of Westeros,” said the kindly man. “And how did you come by this? We are no thieves.” 

2. “I would hope not. You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen.” 

3. “When I kill him he will look in my eyes and thank me.” “If he does, you will have failed. It would be best if he takes no note of you at all.”  

You can make similar arguments for the other two: 

(1) Stealing with the purpose of murdering your target is ok. 

(3) The third rule only applied to Arya because he wanted to teach her they are not butcherers. 

There are double meanings to any and all these things.  

Yes he doesn't want her to embrace her identity as a stark, but this is given in the context of the other rules. 

Each one was broken with distinct purpose by the alchemist: 

1. He takes the stolen keys  

2. He shows his face 

3. He kills Pate 

None of these have to be strict rules, but they are each individually established, and individually broken. 

In the same vein their philosophy makes it so that the facelessman are the tool, they are the sword of death. They do not decide who deserves the gift and who does not. For Arya to look him in the face and to show herself as the killer, she is associating the cause with herself. 

Remember Ned's words, the person who passes the judgment should swing the sword (paraphrasing). 

The facelessman don't pass the judgment, they should not reveal themselves as the one responsible for the victims death.  

In the context of those three quotes I was trying to present the idea that the alchemist is acting unusually for a typical facelessman.  

That was my only conclusion with that point, and it is supremely justified. Using the sort of logic above (in your post) just muddies the purpose and intent of the discussion. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You still haven't provided a quote about Jaqen's age. 

Like with the cell, he is called young. 

But if her were thirty Arya would identify him as parental or old. 

Notice Beric Dondarrion is twenty one (in AGOT) and Sansa calls him old. 

Arya is younger than Sansa, she would not identify Jaqen as young or youthful in anyway if he was past his twenties. 

Men like Sir Loras is what they see as older figures. 

That puts him (Jaqen) in the right age range. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Just like he was done with the Alchemist after killing Pate. They are both false faces. 

I have covered this already. He took Pate's face. 

He had the alchemist's face on hand (unless he was using a glamour). 

'Jaqen' was a made up identity. 

If it was a real face then the identity would not be made up, he would be embodying a real person. The Alchemist and Pate were real people. 

But Jaqen is just an identity like Hugor Hill or Alleras, which is why he has so many parallels to those two. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Precisely. She is less likely to be thinking of Lyanna than Rhaegar is because she's never interacted with her. 

More, because Lyanna is the other woman, the woman he crowned the queen of love and beauty. You think her mind wouldn't dwell on Lyanna? 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I would not describe that as "rejecting her". 

Dismissing her question. 

Will you write him a song? 

No, he already has one, the prophecy. 

That means no, I will not write him a song. And yet he goes and drums music anyways, looking away from his wife and newborn. 

He is singing a song for someone else. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't know that Elia is thinking of anyone in  particular, and neither do you. 

We have the added benefit of knowing what happens. 

We know he runs off with Lyanna, and has a child with her. 

We also know he wants a third child right then and there (in the vision). 

And before he had just crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty. 

Of course she was thinking about her. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar is obsessed with prophecy and he has just decided Aegon is TPTWP, and since the dragon has three heads there must be another. Elia is not Rhaegar and would not think along the same lines. 

She is his wife, she knows how he thinks, in fact he tells her. 

When he says the dragon needs three heads, she know what he wants and what he is thinking. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So Elia responds to that shocking insult by suggesting that Rhaegar take Lyanna as a mistress? 

She asks: "do you love her, do you want her, you won't do better" 

This is playing to his own self conceit. 

He names her the queen of love and beauty, so of course she wonders if he wants or loves that woman. And she knows he thinks her beautiful, the most beautiful of them all. He could have crowned any other woman, but he chose Lyanna. 

 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Whether Gregor carried the body down himself or the bodies were recovered later does not matter in this context. We know Tywin sent Gregor & Amory to scale Maegor's holdfast (and his reasoning why), we know that Elia and (what appeared to be) her two children were found dead, we know Amory had to make excuses for his sloppiness to Tywin afterward and we can figure Amory would have been aware of what Gregor was up to, Tywin admits to Tyrion what Gregor did even while saying they'll shift all blame to the deceased Amory, and Gregor himself confesses. 

The nursery and the bed chamber were on different floors, who's to say Amory was keeping track of Gregor. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't actually know what route the Alchemist travelled between first appearing to Arya and when we later see him with Pate. Harrenhal is closer to the east coast than the west coast, and given how much faster travel is by ship rather than land he likely just headed to the east coast, then sailed around that coast to reach Oldtown rather than going to the Iron Islands first. 

We don't know where he went, but he offered to take Arya to the house of black and white. I assume that does not conflict with his "duties". 

But if he went west, he would go to the iron islands first, as that his objective, not Oldtown (yet).

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Waif says that her father gave her to the FM as part of his payment for them killing his wife. I will admit that I was using "the FM" to refer to the institution and perhaps could have used "the HoBaW" instead to distinguish agents assigned to kill people from the recruiting function. But since the HoBaW does seek & value recruits, it would entirely be in keeping for agents to send more that way. Military officers seek out recruits, and at number of places I've worked ordinary employees are offered bonuses for referring new employees. 

The HOBAW accepts new recruits as offering, they are not known to seek them out. 

Maybe as payment, but that is different from sending a man to westeros to find promising recruits. 

Especially since Jaqen had "other duties". 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If he's going to the HoBaW, he's not exactly going "rogue" is he? That would be a different matter from escorting her to Riverrun, which has nothing to do with FM business. 

He was locked up in the black cells, he failed. He goes to the kindly man for support, and is rejected again. 

Unless he knew about the Euron contract before hand in which case he goes straight for the iron islands. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

We don't know the prophecy and how Rhaegar interpreted it, so we don't know if "any woman" would do. 

Maybe not, but everything about Lyanna tells Elia he wants her. 

And if he wanted her only for the prophecy, that would be a big deal. Either way we don't know. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There's no evidence on that. 

As much as there is no evidence that he thought Lyanna important to the prophecy (specifically). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aerys was crazy, but he wasn't just making things up. The Lannisters have no Valyrian ancestry that we know of, and because they were part of Aegon I's conquest, they don't retain any title like "prince" or "princess" as the Martells do. 

The Lannisters were rich and powerful, and Cersei was beautiful. Her blonde hair and fair skin would match a Targaryen. 

Elia was always the second choice, meant to spurn Tywin. The Martell's would never dream of this match, never mind their titles of "prince", and "princess". 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that. 

This is the closest thing established for us. 

By this logic we don't technically know anything. But we can extrapolate. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How did they describe him? 

Noble (Noble prince Rhaegar). 

As often as they call Ned Honorable. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We know he didn't crown Ashara, we don't know he "showed no interest". 

If he did, it was never mention or suggested anywhere in the text ever. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

People at the time didn't understand the implications of that un-subtle gesture. 

Elia is his wife, she is not just people. 

How do you think she felt about him choosing another woman over herself, do you think she would not think on who the Lyanna was? 

Especially since Rhaegar did not have an assortment of mistresses. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So we have Robert thinking something about Lyanna but failing to understand the truth. That's not actually evidence she was "sweet". 

Its evidence of how she was outwardly. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, something you assert but don't know. 

We can deduce her outward nature. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She and Brandon both liked riding horses. Some other things we know about Brandon: he liked bragging to Barbrey about how a bloody sword is a beautiful thing, he has to be physically restrained from going after Rhaegar after Lyanna was crowned, after she disappeared he went to Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die". That's the wild "wolf blood", which Ned notes got him & Lyanna killed. Catelyn recalls of Brandon that "his mirths were as wild as his rages", and that she had to prevent him from killing LF when they duelled. 

Was Lyanna ever called violent or angry? 

Iron is hard and unbendable, not out of control. 

Wild in her case meant her hair, her looks, and her hobbies. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The quote from her is "That's my father's man". She's violently enforcing the feudal order... another similarity with Brandon. 

Look at the story it was told from, was it meant for her to look like she was "violently enforcing the feudal order" 

That is the first time violent is used in association with Lyanna, by yourself. 

It was a different time, and different types of logic were used. She stood up for Howland, would you rather she show no interest in the underlings? 

Please tell me you are not serious. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

How does "context" make her far more eager to urge their husband to take a mistress than a typical wife, and who or what am I being "derivative" of? 

Look at the discussion as a whole, don't break it down to pieces that fit your narrative (like saying Elia and Rhaegar are generic husband and wife). 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

WHY!? I don't think Alicent Hightower would ignore the long term consequences and push Viserys to do something which would slight her or her children, nor would Catelyn do the same regarding Ned's treatment of Jon. 

Does Alicent think of the long term consequences when crowning Aegon II gets all her children killed? 

Elia was not Alicent or Catelyn, she wanted to protect her children. 

Aegon VI was always going to be Rhaegar's heir. But he needed a third child, something Elia could not provide for him. Just one more child and then the prophecy would be complete. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

It's to "test the strength of the opposing arguments" and I found your argument about Jaqen trying to escape wanting. Thus your claim is unproved and I remain agnostic on the question. The Alchemist is not trying to have a debate or test Pate's arguments, he's trying to convince Pate to sell him the key. 

There were two definitions.  

My argument was only that he was freed once the fight broke out. 

He didn't want to be arrested again because that was not part of his plan. If it was he'd have an exit strategy. 

Again you are using a false equivalency by saying him wanting to be arrested is in anyway established by the novel. To claim otherwise requires evidence. You must see this. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We is CamiloRP and I. Other people have laughed at you but not bothered with the effort of addressing you. And your imagined dialogue between Elia & Rhaegar is not "from the text". If I claimed that Howland Reed defeated Arthur Dayne in single combat and my evidence was all copied from Brienne's fight with Rorge or Jon's with Quorin, that would not be "from the text", that would be me making up the fight between Reed & Dayne. 

It was never targeted towards you, so why should you respond? 

These examples have nothing to do with the others, but if you believe you are being honest then that is your folly. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

They are all weaknesses in your argument. Your argument does have a solid foundation, instead it is full of your own assumptions.

The swineherd prince and Strider are not "directly in the text", they are things you are bringing in from outside of it. You don't seem to understand what it means for something to be in the text and can't distinguish your assumptions in the claims you are trying to prove from shared evidence other people can reason based on. 

No, again, literature is inspired by literature, nothing is entirely self contained. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You assume someone disagreeing with you "picked a side because it makes them feel better" rather than that they are a person like you who comes to their own conclusions based on what they've read. 

It was not directed at you, yet still you go on. 

That statement was for someone looking at the breadth of the argument. 

You can read these long posts and find places you agree with one person, and others with which you agree with the other person. 

Only taking the side of one of them is suspect. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That part definitely seems to have been ditched. They are far apart from each other, and Tyrion. Arya is also too young without the aging process GRRM expected. 

It was changed.

Remember the show named Jon "Aegon". 

That is because they cut the real Aegon from the show. There is much and more symbolism of Arya's romantic future.  

As for the ages, you ignore the five year gap that was changed. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Ned explicitly compares the two of them, but I don't think history is going to repeat itself. Arya is off doing something very different.

There's an obvious physical resemblance, but there seems to be less of one in personality (perhaps because he was raised as a smallfolk).

It is breaking the pattern, but he's swearing an oath to a Westerosi girl for whom the refined denial of self-hood in Lorathi speech would sound like not personally accepting the terms of the oath. If he'd said "a man" will do this, a literal meaning would be that any man could. 

The oath was a westerosi oath under a heart tree, and it does go against the Lorathi speech pattern. 

You asked for an example now you dance around it like an ice skater. I must give you props for that.  

And this is not the only symbolism of marriage under the heart tree as relates to Arya. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The books always begin & usually end with magic. The prologue of AGoT has the Others attack, and the last chapter is Dany hatching her dragons. The first of ACoK has Melisandre magically surviving a poisoning, and the last isn't directly magical leaving the political plotline in Winterfell to go north with the Reeds toward a magical one. ASoS begins with another attack from the Others, and ends with the resurrected Lady Stoneheart getting vengeance. AFfC begins and ends with a Faceless Man meeting the POV character. ADWD begins with a skinchanger, but its epilogue only features talk of dragons (I read less into such talk than you) and no actual appearance of magic. Dragons are linked by the alchemist's guild to the return of magic. 

Dragons, my friend. The AFFC prologue has a faceless man, but its main theme is dragons. 

45 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

In the barn he was trying to get Arya to help him. Here she has taken his pledge to repay her and bound him to kill himself. He's not in imminent danger of death, he's just painted himself into a corner he didn't see coming. Arya isn't actually referring to him as a king, and she has no idea who is pretending to be "Jaqen".

Of course she is not, but it is phrased that way on purpose. Same reason they changed the encounter in the show. 

[butterweedstrover]

FYI, It's snowing where I am at right now. 

Happy early winter

[butterweedstrover]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:37 AM, CamiloRP said:

 

Where do you get that?

I was talking to someone else about this: 

"The acolytes were younger. The eldest was her father’s age; the other two could not have been much older than Sansa, who had been her sister" -AFFC 

The youngest Acolyte was Sansa's age, who would be thirteen at this point.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I was talking to someone else about this: 

"The acolytes were younger. The eldest was her father’s age; the other two could not have been much older than Sansa, who had been her sister" -AFFC 

The youngest Acolyte was Sansa's age, who would be thirteen at this point.

that doesn't mean you must be thirteen or older to enter, it could simply be that no one entered in a long time, or that no people under 13 want to become murderhobos. After all, Arya is younger than thirteen.

Yes, I know what your gonna say 'But Arya had the coin", yes, but still she's younger than thirteen, I don't know of many organizations for which you need to be over x age unless you have a recomendation. And most religions and cults prefer indroctrinate their members as young as possible, because it's easier that way.

Keep in mind there is not a lot of people in the HOBAW. And we know of no old people in there, or no summer islanders, would you assume that means they cannot join?

 

[FictionIsntReal]

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Unless they can magically fix their health problems, the unhealthy babies would not be to their preference, as they are harder to keep alive and they seem to want them alive.

Once the Others get them, I don't think they are "alive" in the usual sense.

Quote

And I think that the Others magically turning people into Others would be too fantastical for the series.

GRRM used the term "neverborn" in reference to the Others in his pitch letter. That suggests Others don't give birth to Others. The tv show tended to have less magic than the books, but they still depicted just the sort of conversion you think is too fantastical.

20 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

That is unless you believe this story was made up independently by Ilyrio, they they worked together to craft it.

They could have, and I expect Varys would have preferences in what YG was taught, but that just hasn't been established.

Quote

Gregor is a fool, but still the books never showed him admitting to the crime, everyone simply assumed. That is worth noting.

He admits it when he kills Oberyn!

Quote

Now this is being incredibly obtuse, you know exactly what I meant

I explained why I thought there was a RELEVANT distinction between accent & "speech pattern", and when you said "accent" I had thought you meant "accent". "Ooh, me accent's slipping" is a trope on TV Tropes. It's something characters often make note of, but Arya does not notice any change in accent.

Quote

Accents are not so easily derived from text, but speech patterns are.

It would have been simple to write "Arya noticed he didn't seem to be speaking in his normal accent". Then we'd even know that's what GRRM intended. And don't say it would be giving away too much, because nobody else thinks Jaqen is Aegon and we learn Jaqen is willing to throw away his identity at the end of the book anyway.

Quote

It is in the text because it is written down.

Pate's dialogue is, NOT your imagined dialogue with Elia.

Quote

He drops his accent while making a pledge under the heart tree towards Arya.

WE JUST ESTABLISHED ACCENTS ARE DISTINCT FROM WORD CHOICE, SO STOP SAYING "ACCENT"! And I explained why someone making an oath to a Westerosi would not maintain Lorathi self-negation. To elaborate on that, the word "god" has been euphemized into minced oaths like "gosh". But if you're earnestly swearing an oath, you say "god" not "gosh".

Quote

But it is not on my side to proclaim evidence, as you put equal burden on both sides.

Yes, it is on your side! You are insisting he could not have been in the cells willingly, while I take no position on that. Either possibility is fine by me, but neither has been proven.

Quote

He was in the dungeons with Ilyrio as Rugen, had anyone come their direction he would have locked them up.

I don't understand what hypothetical you're talking about. Are you saying that if someone had attacked them while they were conspiring Varys would have had them locked up? I don't know what that would have to do with anything, and I don't know if I would give Varys great odds.

Quote

If Jaqen was arrested by the gold cloaks on the streets, then that puts an extreme burden of capacity onto them (even though Janos Slynt, their commander, is incompetent).

If somebody actually observed Jaqen committing a crime and then arrested him, Janos' competence would be irrelevant.

Quote

The same with his age, we don't have an exact date, but we have a range.

No we don't. When is the earliest he could have been arrested?

Quote

It is very obvious and very clear

Only to you.

Quote

Books always take from other literature as symbolism

GRRM has often acknowledged being inspired by other fantasy novels, but that doesn't extend to us getting to imagine dialogues between characters that we didn't actually read.

Quote

And it is obvious, I'm surprised you don't see it

You are surprised all the time because you are wrong so often.

Quote

He had him sent away, but after he died (Rhaegar) Varys could do what he wanted with the boy (send him to Ilyrio).

Where did Rhaegar send him, if not to Pentos? To whom was he sent? After Rhaegar died, why did that person let Illyrio take Aegon? We know something entirely different happened with Viserys & Dany.

Quote

Everything in the chest was ignored by YG, that's the point.

YG isn't 5 years old anymore (or a infant, which is when you but not Tyrion think those things are from).

Quote

It's not about people, its about Ilyrio and Varys buying into the lie they set themselves.

Wait, you think they swapped the baby but then forgot they did so? Do they have Alzheimers?

Quote

This is the taste baby Aegon liked, again they are trying to replicate the two.

Why are they trying to "replicate" a baby's taste in candy?

Quote

This is how his character is set up.

How is he "set up"?

Quote

Firstly Duncan did not try to run away with Jenny.

If he had, would Lyonel not have rebelled?

Quote

Secondly Elia had no reason to believe that is what Rhaegar intended (going to the tower of joy).

In your version she knows he wants to father a child with Robert Baratheon's betrothed. How is that not going to cause a conflict!?

Quote

He thought he would win, yet he still left three white cloaks behind to guard Lyanna and their child.

There is an important distinction between them. His wife & child are in KL, the seat of the government, where it would be most difficult for rebels to reach. The war would have to be lost, and he assumes he's going to win. Lyanna isn't there, because he doesn't want her under his father's control. Aerys doesn't know where Lyanna is, so when Brandon starts demanding her Aerys can't return her. Sending three KG is about the best Rhaegar could do since he can't send an entire army like KL has guarding it.

Quote

This is not some far fetched concept you would like to make it be.

A single baby-swap is somewhat far-fetched but not overly so for a fantasy series. But you are adding an additional baby-swap as part of one where Aegon survives but is replaced by YG. I think either PoorQuentyn or Steven Attewell has a double-swap theory where Illyrio betrayed Varys and replaced the real Aegon without his knowledge. It's very much a minority theory, and not considered "obvious" by anyone.

Quote

His mind could always change

It's possible, but we have no evidence that happened. We just know of him thinking both Rhaenys & Aegon were 2 of the 3 heads.

Quote

Yes, read about it. In the first book his hand was burnt by fighting the undead, and his other hand is drenched in red.

Was it drenched in "red" or in "blood"? Because they aren't the same. If one hand was orange and the other red, perhaps you could argue that they represent fire & blood (respectively). But if one is literal fire and the other is not literal blood, that's an inconsistency. Just like your argument about the two-colored hair.

Quote

""If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marwyn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?"

Ah, Marwyn. We know he's wrong in a number of things he says. He claims Aemon was sent off to Castle Black rather than becoming an Archmaester because both he & Marwyn couldn't be trusted. But we know (including from Aemon himself) that the real reason was to remove him as a competitor for Aegon V as candidate for the throne, and also to accompany Bloodraven. And Marwyn himself was made an archmaester despite being by his own words too untrustworthy for the office! Marwyn also claims that if Aemon had arrived he might have been murdered, but Aemon gave no indication that was at all a risk. And nobody has murdered Marwyn, nor have we gotten any indication there was even any attempt. The real portrait of maesters we can see is that most of them are too ignorant (sometimes even willfully) of magic to be able to respond to it.

Quote

Yeah it is, high born girls are not suppose to go down with a bunch of squires (male).

A highborn girl can certainly boss around lower-born men. That's sort of the point of a class hierarchy.

Quote

Especially noble is that it was in someone else's honor.

It was her father's man, as she said, and thus the Starks had a feudal obligation. We see that when Gregor raided the Riverlands the Tullys sent the farmers (by force, Ned believes) to KL to seek redress. And then the throne in turn has an obligation to defend its own vassals.

Quote

This is what is presented to us

What is "presented to us"? All we have is an absence of evidence, so we can remain agnostic.

Quote

Again because it goes against what is established.

What is "established"?

Quote

Otherwise we could say anything is true, we could say Aerys was faking his insanity and we don't know if it was real.

I've argued against people saying such things. There isn't an absence of evidence, instead there are multiple instances of him acting crazy.

Quote

Howland reed would not care what Lyanna does if everyone else was doing it. There is a reason that moment is highlighted.

I've already explained why Howland would be focused on her and not everyone else (and since Bran is the audience, there's even more reason to focus on the Starks). In that scene every Stark has a sort of interaction with their sibling: Brandon asks Ashara on behalf of Ned, and Benjen laughs at Lyanna (and gets wine dumped on his head). Howland notices both because he's sitting with the Starks. And, yes, the fact that Lyanna was crowned and later disappeared would be a good reason for HOWLAND to particularly remember her crying.

Quote

And who is to say she is accustomed to this man being sad on the birth of their children

We had Barristan saying it was not in Rhaegar to be happy. He was basically always sad. The hypothesis that his sadness might have only applied in the absence of childbirth would have already been tested with Rhaenys.

Quote

She was aware of Lyanna

Aware of the existence of Lyanna, but that doesn't entail all the other stuff you try to put in her head like that Lyanna cried at the feast.

Quote

A fifteen year old maiden worth a dragon

The word "worth" is not used in the way you have it used for Lyanna. "Worthy of a dragon", perhaps, but that's different.

Quote

The central motif is him deciding whether or not he is a theif.

Same thing with the word "thief".

Quote

And then we have the alchemist, the secret prince.

You can't assume the conclusion you are trying to prove as part of the evidence for that conclusion.

Quote

We know the Maesters are responsible for the death of the dragons

Marwyn claimed that, and I explained that we already know he's wrong about a number of things. And we've read about how most dragons were killed during the Dance: not by maesters.

Quote

They would even kill someone who were to find out (according to Marwyn).

I'm glad you added that parenthetical rather than asserting it as a fact.

Quote

The keys, the dragon egg, Balon's death.

Yes to the first, no to the second, and Balon was already dead by the time we met the Alchemist so he would have to be out of the loop to still "want" that death.

Quote

The book is mentioned once in the prologue by Pate

Could you provide the quote? I recall him referring more vaguely to locked scrolls but not that specifically.

Quote

Who are these multiple characters?

Pate, Leo, the Alchemist, Rhaegar & Elia.

Quote

same as Elia did

Only in your imagination.

Quote

Yes it is, and yes it can be. Today that would be considered unbecoming, but not always

People might be described as "having worth" for some reason, but I can't recall ever hearing someone described as "worth" a thing they could produce. That would sound like you could exchange that thing for that person.

Quote

Maybe, maybe not. But he had feelings for her, which is why he went after Lyanna in the first place.

First you say "maybe, maybe not", but then in your very next sentence you confidently assert one of the two possibilities.

Quote

Why would be blame Jenny?

She would be analogous to Rhaegar in this circumstance as the person who wound up with the formerly-betrothed.

Quote

But taking a girl from her betrothed, he is stealing her. And he says, "I am no thief".

He did not say that in the text, only in your imagination, and such people aren't called "thieves".

Quote

The dragon and the fifteen year old maiden.

Rhaegar wants both, but Pate just wants the maiden. A dragon is merely a means for him to get that, and he's going to give it in exchange for her rather than keeping it. Completely different from Rhaegar, who is certainly not going to trade away a dragon once he gets it.

Quote

There is once you see the role of the alchemist and Pate.

You can't assume your conclusion in order to prove it.

Quote

I've read rape of the lock, and it has nothing to do with this.

It's about taking a lock of hair, even though the word "rape" is used. And that was written in the 18th century, more "modern" than Westeros.

Quote

Everyone assumed Lyanna was taken against her will, which was the main conceit of the war

Lyanna agreeing to run away is irrelevant in a patriarchal society like Westeros. Her father had already decided she was marrying Robert, she doesn't get to decide for herself. Similarly, the fathers of the Sabine women didn't want them marrying Romans, and they fought over that.

Quote

But what about a woman?

Are they writing the dictionaries in Westeros?

Quote

If a man became distant or unloving, that was the same man should be tied with for the rest of her life.

Whether he was "distant and unloving" in their society was less important than whether he provided children & took care of his family.

Quote

He already is fixing on another woman

He hasn't seen Lyanna since Harrenhal, he's with Elia in that scene. And he hasn't mentioned her in that scene either.

Quote

And she has no way to control him

That is true, though most wives would try what they could.

Quote

so she thinks it right to offer him his due

And now you're just making stuff up we have no reason to believe. He's not "due" another lord's betrothed as his mistress. Rhaegar already has a wife & two children!

Quote

So she thinks, would it be so bad to give him this one thing, so he does not drift away for good?

How does giving him Lyanna prevent him from drifting away!?

Quote

You can see it as foolish but you were not in her position

You're right, I wasn't raised as a noblewoman like Alicent, Catelyn or Cersei. They would spot such foolishness before me.

Quote

You are not Elia obviously.

Certainly true, but I see no reason to think even my humorous response bore less resemblance to her actual one than your imagined version.

Quote

and comes from a poorer house

Dorne has little agriculture, but they produce high-value items and do a lot of trade. I think they're richer than, say, the Starks.

Quote

She would always feel like she was holding Rhaegar back from having a better wife, she would always feel inadequate.

She has an obligation to represent her own family, not to step aside for Rhaegar's "better wife".

Quote

Don't forget Catelyn was married to Brandon first, then to Ned

NO, she was only betrothed to Brandon, he was killed before they could marry. And Ned married her without much of a betrothal period.

Quote

She was not a second thought like Elia.

According to Barbrey Dustin, Cat wasn't the one Brandon wanted. Rickard & Aerys both chose wives for their firstborn sons based at least partly on politics.

Quote

To be content with a husband obsessed with a prophecy she can't fulfil? How content should she be with that lot in life?

A mother was supposed to content herself with her children.

Quote

from a very different time

What made that time "very different"?

Quote

The hightowers were wealthy

They were lower ranking than the Martells.

Quote

She conspired and started a whole civil war

The realm was a tinderbox, I'm not convinced swapping out Alicent for Elia would have prevented that.

Quote

And in the formers case, her husband was dead. Rhaegar was well and alive and influential.

Alicent insisted on pushing for her children's interests while her husband was alive, as did Cat.

Quote

So she can hear him speak it

Why does she want that!?

Quote

In AFFC when he wants Lancel to admit to sleeping with Cersei

In the past tense, he's not trying to get him to admit he wants to sleep with Cersei now. Tyrion had previously confronted Lancel with such knowledge, it was a means of obtaining leverage. Not like your imagined Elia.

Quote

She doesn't want him to do that, she has no way of knowing he plans to go hide away with her at the tower of joy.

She doesn't know the specifics of the ToJ, but in your imaginary conversation she's using the same lines the Alchemist used to goad Pate into stealing the key. WHY!? Nothing good for Elia can come from that.

Quote

Jon Snow is the reborn head, the man who will be reborn.

Perhaps in the future, but it hasn't happened yet.

Quote

Who said anything about ancestry

Quote

The arrow coring the apple is like the sigil of house Martell.

You brought up ancestry, just there. Shouldn't all three apples be indicative of ancestry? Otherwise you're being inconsistent.

Quote

If it was widely distributed, there would be frauds and fakes. This is a rare item not given to just anyone.

You don't seem to understand fixed costs vs marginal costs. The fixed cost can be high enough to prevent others from bothering to create their own imitation mint, but once you've paid that cost to set up a mint, the marginal cost of each coin is low so the only reason not to make a huge number is to keep the value of the coin high. And since the FM are highly regarded assassins, there is very good reason not to set up an imitation mint even aside from the fixed cost!

Quote

Exactly, so you can't assume these coins are common or distributed commonly.

My reasoning in the above paragraph is mostly based on my knowledge of coins, not the mysterious Faceless Men

Quote

As for the dragon egg. We know there are not numerous facelessmen roaming westeros.

We actually don't know how many there are.

Quote

We know Euron (we can conclude) had a contract with a dragon egg

Our only knowledge of him having an egg in the first place is in his claim that he threw one away. So, no, we don't "know" that.

Quote

and now someone is in the citadel looking for a dragon book

Again, not something we actually know.

Quote

Don't even try this, accents are difficult to derive through text

It's very simple for accents to be referenced in text. Click on that TV Tropes link and you'll find some examples.

Quote

We are usually told when characters have accents

And we could have been told that his accent slipped. We weren't.

Quote

We were talking about his speech pattern, which is why you described it the way you did. Then I provide evidence and you don't respond.

I responded when you brought up "possessives", and I explained why he might adopt a less Lorathi speech pattern when swearing an oath to a Westerosi. You might find it a weak response, but it is a response.

Quote

You should be called out for it, it's not only belittling

I am indeed mocking your argument. Reductio ad absurdum is a common form of argument. Have you ever heard it said that an argument "proves too much"? A "proof" of something known to be false shows that there was an error in the chain of reasoning or a starting premise.

Quote

These are parallels between the two characters

That Alleras is said one time to "bathe"? Jaime & Brienne bathe, that doesn't prove anything.

Quote

That is what we are presented with, if you or anyone else comes up with something to contradict that, then provide evidence.

Other people have argued that point in other threads. For this thread I can remain agnostic.

Quote

Who is to say he only spoke about this to his wife?

We really don't know, so we can't rely much on any argument that depends on him telling someone else in the Red Keep.

Quote

Well, I would guess he changed his face to the alchemist because he knew he was going to the iron islands and wanted that configuration in the first place.

Why does he keep that face even after Balon is dead?

Quote

Either way it is most likely so that GRRM could tell us this is the same character as before.

Oh, I agree, but the simplest inference is that the character went from Harrenhal to Oldtown without taking on another assignment & changing his face again.

Quote

"“The golden dragon of Westeros,” said the kindly man. “And how did you come by this? We are no thieves.”

The Alchemist isn't going around picking pockets or selling burgled goods to a fence. He appears to be taking steps as part of some larger mission, although what that is we don't know yet.

Quote

“When I kill him he will look in my eyes and thank me.” “If he does, you will have failed. It would be best if he takes no note of you at all.”

I explained specifically the pragmatic reason why Arya was told that. Nobody but the reader knows the Alchemist killed Pate and stole his identity. So he has gotten away with it and not reaped any of the negative consequences the kindly man was worried about. And he didn't just get lucky, he knew Pate was already poisoned and not in public view, and the Alchemist didn't have a widely recognized face.

Quote

Remember Ned's words, the person who passes the judgment should swing the sword (paraphrasing)

That quote isn't about hiding or revealing your own face, but looking directly upon the person being executed and taking responsibility for it.

Quote

The facelessman don't pass the judgment, they should not reveal themselves as the one responsible for the victims death.

Ilyn Payne is the executioner rather than judge, but there's nothing wrong with him revealing himself. Everyone knows he's the King's Justice.

Quote

In the context of those three quotes I was trying to present the idea that the alchemist is acting unusually for a typical facelessman.

You don't actually know what a typical FM is like, you've just got Arya's lessons which won't necessarily apply to an experienced agent responsible for exercising his own initiative in the field away from any superior around to give orders.

Quote

Like with the cell, he is called young.

Provide a quote.

Quote

Notice Beric Dondarrion is twenty one (in AGOT) and Sansa calls him old.

Arya is younger than Sansa

Did Arya call Beric old?

Quote

'Jaqen' was a made up identity.

If it was a real face then the identity would not be made up

What is the evidence that Jaqen is any more "made up" than the Alchemist? Do you know the true identity of the Alchemist?

Quote

The Alchemist and Pate were real people.

How do you know that for the former?

Quote

You think her mind wouldn't dwell on Lyanna?

I don't know what's going on in Elia's mind and neither do you.

Quote

Dismissing her question.

Answering a question in the negative is not "dismissing" it.

Quote

He is singing a song for someone else.

Himself, perhaps.

Quote

We have the added benefit of knowing what happens.

But Elia doesn't know what will happen! You can't use the future actions of someone other than Elia to determine what Elia was thinking.

Quote

She is his wife, she knows how he thinks

Wives don't always know what their husbands are thinking. Particularly when it comes to infidelity.

Quote

She asks: "do you love her, do you want her, you won't do better"

Only in your imagination.

Quote

And she knows he thinks her beautiful, the most beautiful of them all

I assume that's for "you won't do better", but the parallel doesn't work at all between Pate & Rhaegar. Pate is a nobody who can't have even a tavern girl unless he gets a lot more money than he could normally acquire. Rhaegar was famously high-status, as you emphasize when arguing their marriage was "uneven". Lyanna was not regarded as the most beautiful, so it seems that Rhaegar COULD do better. And why would Elia be talking up some other woman as the best Rhaegar can do!?

Quote

The nursery and the bed chamber were on different floors, who's to say Amory was keeping track of Gregor.

Amory presumably recalls on which floor they split up, might even have heard what was going on through the floor, and when he finished stabbing Rhaenys half a hundred times could have gone on to the other floor. He was in the keep at the same time as Gregor and on essentially the same mission, so he seems like a perfectly adequate source for Tywin even if Gregor wasn't also present giving an after-action report.

Quote

We don't know where he went, but he offered to take Arya to the house of black and white. I assume that does not conflict with his "duties".

Sam stops at Braavos on the way to Oldtown, and even encounters Arya. That doesn't sound like much of a conflict.

Quote

The HOBAW accepts new recruits as offering, they are not known to seek them out.

Why only one method? They were willing to take Arya even though she wasn't an offering.

Quote

Maybe as payment, but that is different from sending a man to westeros to find promising recruits.

He wasn't sent to do that specifically, but I already mentioned how many firms encourage their employees to refer potential hires even if recruiting isn't their primary job.

Quote

He goes to the kindly man for support, and is rejected again.

You don't know anything about him being "rejected" at all, you simply made it up. And what "support" are you referring to?

Quote

everything about Lyanna tells Elia he wants her

What is "everything about Lyanna"?

Quote

As much as there is no evidence that he thought Lyanna important to the prophecy (specifically).

We just don't know, so we shouldn't build a long chain of reasoning dependent on either possibility.

Quote

The Martell's would never dream of this match, never mind their titles of "prince", and "princess".

Never dream of it? They already had a Targaryen marriage! And their Dayne vassals had one afterward!

Quote

By this logic we don't technically know anything

No, there are lots of things we do know, and you can read about on A Wiki of Ice and Fire.

Quote

Noble (Noble prince Rhaegar).

So the nobility can't be adulterers, although everyone knows Rhaegar to have been one (with Lyanna at least)?

Quote

If he did, it was never mention or suggested anywhere in the text ever.

An absence of evidence, unlike the Aerys comparison you mentioned.

Quote

Elia is his wife, she is not just people.

If she had known what was going to happen, she should have told someone in an attempt to prevent it, because nothing could be worse.

Quote

Especially since Rhaegar did not have an assortment of mistresses.

We don't know, there's merely an absence of evidence. Incidentally, there seems to be a JFK/RFK inspiration for Daemon Blackfyre, Baelor Breakspear & Rhaegar Targaryen and we know JFK did have mistresses. Of course, I think that proves nothing for Rhaegar because it's not in the text.

Quote

Its evidence of how she was outwardly.

So you're reduced to her being "outwardly" sweet, and relying on Robert's inaccurate perception.

Quote

Was Lyanna ever called violent or angry?

That is my take on what "the wolf blood" entails.

Quote

Look at the story it was told from, was it meant for her to look like she was "violently enforcing the feudal order"

Yes, because that is exactly what Starks are supposed to do!

Quote

She stood up for Howland, would you rather she show no interest in the underlings?

This has nothing to do with what I would "rather". In Westeros lords are obligated to retaliate against attacks on their vassals... and they are obligated to pursue the interests of their own house over someone else's. Polygamy is not permitted, and one reason is that there would be too many divergent interests rather than one pairing with a shared interest in both their children. The Dance and the Blackfyre rebellions both happened because a king had children with multiple women. A widower remarrying is not prohibited, because it is still desirable to have male heir if one doesn't exist (and the death rate was higher in pre-modern times, so having a spare was good too), but multiple claimants from different families spell the potential for disaster.

Quote

like saying Elia and Rhaegar are generic husband and wife

I don't claim they are like the average couple in EVERY respect, but being a good Bayesian I do try to start from a base case of the "outside view" and then cautiously see where we can extrapolate based on the "inside view". The outside view tends to be more accurate than the inside view.

Quote

Does Alicent think of the long term consequences when crowning Aegon II gets all her children killed?

She was expecting her children to be killed if Rhaenyra took the throne, so yes she was attempting to do so.

Quote

Elia was not Alicent or Catelyn, she wanted to protect her children.

All three wanted to do that!

Quote

Aegon VI was always going to be Rhaegar's heir

And Domeric was going to be Roose's heir. Ramsay didn't have a noble family to back his claim over his half-brother's, but he was still a threat anyway.

Quote

My argument was only that he was freed once the fight broke out.

Literally speaking, he was freed from his cage after Arya provided the axe. This doesn't address whether he deliberately got himself in the black cells in the first place.

Quote

He didn't want to be arrested again because that was not part of his plan. If it was he'd have an exit strategy.

An exit strategy for what happens if Yoren gets attacked on the road?

Quote

Again you are using a false equivalency by saying him wanting to be arrested is in anyway established by the novel

I never claimed it was established, instead I argued that it hasn't been established that was NOT the case. So I can remain agnostic.

Quote

These examples have nothing to do with the others

Of course my example does, which is why I wrote it. We've got a scene that actually exists in the text, and another scene a person makes up by transposing elements of the original scene. The latter is not in the text and not evidence of anything. And if you argue the scene must exist because they are parallels, you are assuming precisely the thing you are trying to prove!

Quote

No, again, literature is inspired by literature, nothing is entirely self contained.

There's no contradiction between a work being inspired by another work and being self-contained. It is not required to read every inspiration of ASoIaF before reading ASoIaF itself. A work like A Clash of Kings can be said not to be "self-contained" because it requires A Game of Thrones.

Quote

It was not directed at you, yet still you go on.

I am commenting on all sorts of things written in this thread, whether they are directed at me is irrelevant to whether they are sensible or not.

Quote

You can read these long posts and find places you agree with one person, and others with which you agree with the other person.

Only taking the side of one of them is suspect.

Have you noticed that a very small portion of my comments are noting when you say something correct? If others evaluate a similar percentage of what you say as correct but don't respond at as much length, then they probably won't include such things. There's nothing "suspicious" about people disagreeing with your theory, that's entirely normal for newfangled theories. Get used to people expressing disagreement with you and not believing your theory.

Quote

Remember the show named Jon "Aegon".

That is because they cut the real Aegon from the show

They also renamed Asha to Yara so viewers wouldn't get confused, and cut out the Tysha reveal because viewers wouldn't remember her being mentioned in the first season. Jaquen was not removed, but YG was. So if YG is the real Aegon, then they did cut him out, but if "Jaqen" is then they didn't.

Quote

As for the ages, you ignore the five year gap that was changed.

I'm not ignoring it, that's a big part of why that part of the pitch letter no longer seems likely. AFfC was when that gap was discarded. The Alchemist is just a Faceless Man in Oldtown, and we don't get any indication he's meeting up with Arya again.

Quote

You asked for an example now you dance around it like an ice skater. I must give you props for that.

I asked for an example of his accent slipping, because that's what you said, but speech patterns aren't accents.

Quote

Of course she is not, but it is phrased that way on purpose. Same reason they changed the encounter in the show.

There were a LOT of things changed on the show, so the mere existence of some altered dialogue means little.

[CamiloRP]

27 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Once the Others get them, I don't think they are "alive" in the usual sense.

GRRM used the term "neverborn" in reference to the Others in his pitch letter. That suggests Others don't give birth to Others. The tv show tended to have less magic than the books, but they still depicted just the sort of conversion you think is too fantastical.

Those are fair points, there's also the fact that one of Craster's wives calls them "Craster's sons" (I think). 

Then again, a lot has changed from Martin's first pitch letter, and even then he could be descriBing the Others from Humanity's POV. 

And while the show did have less magic it was more fantastical, because there where fewer explanations for the magic, not questions raised as to why are prophecies made, Dany was fireproof just because, rather than it being a particular circumstance, etc. (And let's not forget about the many wormholes that appeared in season six).

I take it as a pick your poison kind of thing, I clearly favor the Others being a variation of humanity, given George's past writing, the fact that they can breed with humans (and George really hates the notion of non-humans breeding with humans) and their name, which seems to on the nose.

But there is a case to be made for them being plutionians or something.

 

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

that doesn't mean you must be thirteen or older to enter, it could simply be that no one entered in a long time, or that no people under 13 want to become murderhobos. After all, Arya is younger than thirteen.

Yes, I know what your gonna say 'But Arya had the coin", yes, but still she's younger than thirteen, I don't know of many organizations for which you need to be over x age unless you have a recomendation. And most religions and cults prefer indroctrinate their members as young as possible, because it's easier that way.

Keep in mind there is not a lot of people in the HOBAW. And we know of no old people in there, or no summer islanders, would you assume that means they cannot join?

 

I know, I only mentioned it to point out I'm not making stuff up, I just need to find it again. 

Most things in the novel aren't said but implied in ways that are easy to miss (ex: Tyrion killing Nurse). 

There is a line about Arya being too young, but I have to find it first. As I was looking I found some other quotes of use you may want to read:

 

 

On a side note, the kindly man does miss when Arya lies or is deceitful at times. More to the point the coin clued him on who she was. 

When Arya is being sent to serve Brusco the kindly man says she must come up with a new name for herself: 

"She bit her lip. “Could I be Cat?”"  

This is something she does often when she is worried, or concerned she will be caught (biting her lip). Cat is for her mother, and she just pledged to be no one. 

However the kindly man misses the nostalgic connection: 

"“Cat.” He considered. “Yes. Braavos is full of cats. One more will not be noticed. You are Cat, an orphan of …”" 

Then he asks for the name of a ship: 

"“Nymeria,” she said at once" 

Once more he does not get the connection.  

Her next name is also taken from Winterfell: 

"“Beth.” She had known a Beth once, back at Winterfell when she was Arya Stark. Maybe that was why she’d picked the name"

Side note2: There is a chance the alchemist was using a glamor, not a mask- 

"“That’s not how I meant. Jaqen used magic.”

"“All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor.”" 

I have still not decided 

Side note3: 

There is a connection between wine being the source of falsehoods from the kindly man: 

"The kindly man took a bite of his egg. The girl heard him chewing. He never spoke with his mouth full. He swallowed, and said, “Some men say there is wisdom in wine. Such men are fools" 

This goes back to what I was saying about the Arbor Gold and Pisswater.  

In AFFC, we are told Archmaester Ebrose (Kindly old man) is giving a lecture on the property of urine. 

Leo then says he would take Arbor Gold over Urine any day (lies instead of truth, ignorance instead of wisdom). 

But look at what he is eating when he says this: "Tap, tap, she heard, then a tiny crackling sound. Breaking his first egg."  

An allusion to the alchemist, or perhaps the archmaesters themselves.

Ned: "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" 

Kindly Man: "“All men must die. We are but death’s instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god’s powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?”

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I know, I only mentioned it to point out I'm not making stuff up, I just need to find it again. 

Most things in the novel aren't said but implied in ways that are easy to miss (ex: Tyrion killing Nurse). 

There is a line about Arya being too young, but I have to find it first. 

But the problem is, it's not a fact, you take it as a fact in order to prove some made up backstory, that's not a good base for a theory.