Jump to content

The Dragon Requires Three Books


Canon Claude

Recommended Posts

On 11/12/2020 at 7:45 PM, butterweedstrover said:

I only mentioned the white, red, and black to argue those are his three primary colors and we must look out for them.

Your method of analysis has too many degrees of freedom, leading to what Andrew Gelman calls the garden of forking paths. If we specify ahead of time what sort of analysis we will do to a set of data and then draw the conclusions which follow from that, it's more credible than if we change our standards afterward so we can still reach a desired conclusion.

Quote

He like Alleras, is connotated with a bath in more than just an ephemeral way.

How is that "more than just ephemeral"?

Quote

The riddle is the name, who is this person?

The name "Jaqen" isn't presented as a riddle at all. It's just some (presumably Lorathi) name.

Quote

Well the show changed plenty of things, including making Jon "Aegon".

Yes, but YOU were citing the scene from the show where she was running through KL when Dany attacked.

Quote

The point is that she says it tastes fine, just like the worm she eats off of the kindly man's face.

I don't recall her saying any such thing in that scene from the show.

Quote

Notice worms are also called wyverns, like dragons

NO, wyrms are a separate species from wyverns. I have brought up the theory that Valyrian bloodmages combined firewyrms with wyverns to create dragons, but they are typically thought of as distinct.

Quote

He would be that person, he would not be so glib with others

How do you know he wouldn't be glib?

Quote

He also would not be emphasized to like making up names, joining the bloody mummers, or introduce his name and background on every chance encounter.

I don't see any reason why not. Plus, as noted, Rorge & Biter joined the Bloody Mummers also. Must they also be false identities!?

Quote

Septa Lemore has stretch marks meaning she gave birth, and Tyrion is trying to figure out who she really is. If she died her hair darker brown she could pass, or could be someone else entirely.

Tyrion doesn't guess she's the same woman whose picture he saw, even though he figured out the real reason for YG's dyed hair. Maybe... she doesn't actually look like the woman in the picture because she's a different person!

Quote

For their son YG. to be sat on the throne. She would not want to leave his side.

I didn't ask about HER willingness to do this, but ILLYRIO'S to permit that. All of your examples are irrelevant for that question.

Quote

There are a few others

Who else has embraced your brand of tinfoil?

Quote

Either way, Ashara would have motive keeping the child secret as she wasn't married, so the baby swap was convenient for her.

It doesn't seem like it actually was that much of a secret, since Barristan thinks of her having a stillborn girl and Cersei suggests Ned stole her child.

Quote

Read Connington's chapter, he does not once consider the boy's age or the validity of Varys' claim.

Because that's from years ago! It would have been easier to compare YG's age to Aegon's because small differences in time are relatively larger at young ages.

Quote

Who's to say he made the decision, it may have been Ilyrio.

Why would Varys go along with such a bizarre plan?

Quote

It was the plan, and it is the plan. The chest does not change any of that plan.

WHY was "the plan" to send a chest of Jaqen's things to YG!?

Quote

Again, a septa naturally trained in sewing with time on her hand does not tear apart clothes and crudely stich them back together. There is a point in her action.

Yes, tearing apart the clothes and stitching them back together makes them look like motley, appropriate for a dwarf jester, rather than just a child's clothes.

Quote

And if you believe the cloths are YG, then why in the world would she give them to Tyrion? She could remake any peace of clothing in the box and make it fit him, why something with sentimental value?

YG is too old for those clothes. When kids outgrow their clothes, parents tend to give them to smaller children or to Goodwill. And "any piece of clothing in the box" was used, it was all similar.

Quote

So why is it no where on the list.

Because, as I said (and as did you, unintentionally) he's not the most obvious!

Quote

It makes far more sense than Jaime with one hand

Nope, Jaime is closer to the person she believes to be the valonqar, and she never suspected Jaime because of the assumption that he will always love her. He's not taking the throne for himself (even if that was the plan under the pitch letter) and won't have underlings to seize it for him, but he has personally killed the person on the throne before.

Quote

You should be convinced with the overwhelming evidence. It is not crackpot, it is fairly obvious.

Your "evidence" is not overwhelming, and your theory is crackpot rather than obvious. You are arguing with the entire world here while insisting you are the only sensible person. It's not just me who isn't convinced, nobody is. You need to think for yourself about why that is, and then come up with arguments that we don't laugh at so much.

Quote

So you believe Lyanna and Rhaegar got married?

No, I think the show simplified things. R+L=J is important, details about marriage less so.

13 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You later claim that he's comparing two different types of sci-fi, if that would be the case it would be a stupid criticism (taken in a 'critic' sense, non in a 'criticize' sense) of the show, as he's measuring it by another genre standards.

Right, and so he doesn't actually hold that against the show. He doesn't judge all scifi by the standards of scifi. As far as I can tell, he has little interest in hard scifi at all.

Quote

If you're a flat-earther it makes no sense, because earth is round in Star Trek

Maybe in the movies, I don't think the original TV show spent much time near Earth at all.

Quote

Since advanced tech is what makes sci-fi sci-fi and magic is what makes fantasy fantasy we can assume he thinks the genres are more similar than different

No, that's not what the quote means. "Sufficiently advanced" means advanced far beyond our capacity to understand it. If you went back in time and showed modern technology to a caveman, they would probably think it was magic. Characters within a scifi story don't regard contemporary technology as magical, just as we don't think of it that way ourselves. Characters might encounter new tech they don't understand, and the distinguishing thing about a scifi story (as opposed to fantasy) is that they CAN come to understand it as just a new technology over the course of the story. I'm not aware of Clarke ever writing fantasy stories.

Quote

I only read Dune

If you read the trilogy, you would know that a human transforms into a sandworm. It's not hard science. The whole Butlerian Jihad abolishing computers & forcefields blocking ranged weapons is so he can have a more old-timey version of the future (imitated by Star Wars) in which he can set his version of a Muhammad story.

Quote

George also wanted to be a scientist

I hadn't heard that, could you provide a cite?

Quote

He also knows a lot about it and likes discussing it both verbally and in books.

I don't get that impression at all. As is well known, "GRRM can't math" and he says things like Westeros has more advanced medicine than the real medieval world even while the maternal mortality rate is ridiculously higher.

Quote

That's not the reason he gives, the reason he gives is that it's more scientifically accurate. His whole design of dragons is done with that in mind, he makes them slender and 90% wing because it's the way to make them able to fly.

He's inspired by existing winged animals, but I don't think he actually did any calculations (other people have attempted) regarding how large they could be while still being capable of displacing enough air with their wings to counteract their body weight, and how large their wings could get without snapping. He wanted Balerion to be enormous (FAR larger than any flying animal we know of), so he's enormous. Similar to how dragons can breathe fire without burning up their own insides: just accept it.

Quote

And while it's a different genre, George thinks they're the same and would likely use the same rules when writing both.

He didn't say the rules are the same. He generalizes different stories being about Faulkner's "human heart in conflict with itself" (which is not really typical of hard scifi), and then refers to various genre trappings as "furniture". He even notes that Lovecraft's scifi horror is basically opposed to the standards of Campbell's scifi, even while also noting a real similarty between Lovecraft & Campbell scifi horror stories. Lovecraft himself wouldn't necessarily follow the same "rules" between a Dreamlands story & a cosmic horror story.

Quote

I didn't talked about him

You were citing a passage from GRRM where he was using Eisenstein & Williams as two examples. You said they were "hard sci-fi according to the author", even though neither seems to be described as "hard" scifi by anybody but you.

Quote

He's defining a term in a weird way

YOU think it's weird, but your determination as to what qualified as "hard scifi" is what we've been disputing.

Quote

and there's a lot of non hard sci-fi stories that do. Cast Away for example

Yes, that's why he said hard scifi is a SUBSET of "geek fiction", which he then defined as quoted.

Quote

The Hitchhicker's Guide To The Galaxy and Saughterhouse Five are both sci-fi

Neither is hard scifi.

Quote

The Hobbit was a good book, but if you're a sci-fi writer

Instead of scifi, the more relevant comparison would be another variety of fantasy. And in fact GRRM has criticized how Tolkien brought back Gandalf in a stronger form, and handwaved away how well Aragorn ruled at the end (I don't think he cared as much about Smaug's front-legs). Tolkien wanted to write something along the lines of the ancient myths he studied as a philologist but intended for a modern audience, and since those sagas don't really delve into the weeds of proper governance many would consider the latter criticism pointless. But GRRM wants to write different kinds of stories. Tolkien & C. S. Lewis criticized the work of E. R. Eddison for its amorality (which some have compared to ASoIaF), infusing their own fantasies with their Christian beliefs (much more subtly in the case of Tolkien compared to Lewis).

Quote

But since the film doesn't, the statement makes no sense. Same with Star Trek not being hard

But Star Trek is scifi, whereas Jurassic Park isn't Christian (even "softcore") at all.

Quote

He's complaining about the scientific accuracy of it.

I don't read that as a complaint. He's noting that unrelated species can't actually interbreed (in a humorous manner), but we can embrace fiction not only despite discarding reality but even because of it.

Quote

He's talking about scientific accuracy, the writer part in that statement makes no sense unless he's talking about himself as a hard sci-fi writer.

Star Trek is written scifi. I'm not a lawyer myself, but I could compare those two hypothetical kinds of lawyers.

Quote

you wouldn't bring up the characteristics of drama to say Superman makes no sense, because it's not a parameter the movie is asking you to measure it by

I do and have brought up those things while discussing the movie! It's a popular and successful movie because of many other characteristics, but I think it would have been a better film without those things. Other people disagree with me though.

Quote

Now you are the one making a circular argument!

You asked for what evidence is there that he would include it. I'm saying that the multiple references to interspecies breeding, including explicitly using the same name as Lovecraft's "Deep Ones" who interbred with humans in Lovecraft's story and are described similarly in the worldbook, are evidence. The newborn dragons suckling at Dany's breasts like she was really their mother is evidence. Not incontervertible evidence, so I think agnosticism is still a valid position, but it's evidence.

Quote

What's more GRRM to you? Copying something from another writer exactly as is or adding his own more progressive and scientifically accurate twist?

What's an instance of him borrowing something and making it more scientifically accurate? And he directly borrows from Accursed Kings numerous times without making it any more "progressive".

Quote

one such example would be vampires not being able to reflect in mirrors, which doesn't happen in his book and it's just a lie made up by vampire so people don't suspect them

Our Vampires Are Different is an incredibly common trope, not that much evidence of being scientific. That notion in particular seems to have originated with Bram Stoker rather than earlier vampire fiction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Your method of analysis has too many degrees of freedom, leading to what Andrew Gelman calls the garden of forking paths. If we specify ahead of time what sort of analysis we will do to a set of data and then draw the conclusions which follow from that, it's more credible than if we change our standards afterward so we can still reach a desired conclusion. 

Nay. My point as regard's Rhaegar were those three colors are associated with him, not that that Jaqen was somehow Rhaegar. 

The colors are seen in Jaime's dream as well as Cersei's dream when she enters Maggy's tent. 

Quote

How is that "more than just ephemeral"? 

Mentioned more than in passing. 

Alleras is shown to bath enough that it is mentionable. 

Jaqen is shown to desire a bath enough to make it a pursuit from when he was in the cage. 

It stands out as regards their characters.

Quote

The name "Jaqen" isn't presented as a riddle at all. It's just some (presumably Lorathi) name. 

He also has a last name. 

Quote

Yes, but YOU were citing the scene from the show where she was running through KL when Dany attacked. 

I was siting the show when Arya is running around a destroyed KL, yes.  

However, the mention of the worms was separate to that. It is another example of Arya being the worm eater. 

Quote

I don't recall her saying any such thing in that scene from the show. 

The show removed all parallels to her being the worm eater, not just in that one scene. They also pretty much removed the three heads of the dragon and the ghost of high heart. 

Quote

NO, wyrms are a separate species from wyverns. I have brought up the theory that Valyrian bloodmages combined firewyrms with wyverns to create dragons, but they are typically thought of as distinct. 

I'm not talking about the lore here. 

So you see, GRRM reads literature, and he uses them in his book series. Listen to any one of his discussions and he tells aspiring writers to read the classics. 

The earliest (or one of the earliest) forms of English fantasy was the Historia Brittonum by Nennius (first name unknown). 

It is the basis for Arthurian legends. Ambrosius (Nennius calls him by the anglicised name, ambrose) was the precursor to Merlin. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosius_Aurelianus 

Geoffrey of Monmouth repeated one of the tales in the Historia Brittonum, the one about the high tower:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae 

Now the story is changed a bit by Monmouth. If you read the original version, Ambrosius who is a child tells secrets to king Vortigern that his own mages could not figure out. 

He reveals a vase with two wyrms struggling on a piece of cloth. Some of the translations say "serpents" as well but this was middle english. 

When I first read the book, I thought they were worms, but the later reading and depiction by Monmouth showed them to be dragons.    

A white and a red dragon fighting on the cloth. Notice they were dug out from underneath the earth and found inside dirty vases like a pair of worms. 

The winged creatures in Monmouth's version may have been an addition, but they were always white and red. 

So we have three color pairs in ASOIAF: 

White and Red for the heart tree 

Black and white for the facelessmen 

Red and Black for house Targaryen. 

Rhaegar embodies all three. Aegon VI is paired with Arya of house Stark, the devourer, the third head of the dragon. The one seen in the statue of the trios. 

I don't mean to be rude (I really don't) but a lot of the fandom isn't as aware of the literature that GRRM was inspired by and knew well, so the construction of many of these parallels will go unseen. He uses books like Lord of the Rings, the Swineherd, and older Arthurian legends, and you can see the influences in his book. You just have to be aware of them. 

Quote

How do you know he wouldn't be glib? 

Glib as in he is keeping a secret only he knows. Like Alleras: "The Sphinx was always smiling, as if he knew some secret jape" 

Now Jaqen: "He was the youngest of the three, slender, fine-featured, always smiling

You could add the second part to the other sentence and get much the same result.

Quote

I don't see any reason why not. Plus, as noted, Rorge & Biter joined the Bloody Mummers also. Must they also be false identities!? 

Biter is a made up name as Jaqen himself said. But you see those two are not the subject matter, we are talking about her mystery character Jaqen. The evidence is meant for him, just like as the above. 

Quote

Tyrion doesn't guess she's the same woman whose picture he saw, even though he figured out the real reason for YG's dyed hair. Maybe... she doesn't actually look like the woman in the picture because she's a different person! 

Maybe, it is only an idea. Also there were no photographs back then, it is a picture in a locket, not one that can be easily identifiable unless you know the person. And given Septa Lemore's age (late 40s) and her brown hair color, who is to say Tyrion would recognize the two. 

Quote

I didn't ask about HER willingness to do this, but ILLYRIO'S to permit that. All of your examples are irrelevant for that question. 

Why would he not? They agreed to the plan, and the boy would need guidance. 

He has any other woman at his disposal, but he does miss Serra. I'm surprise you find it so bizarre. 

Quote

Who else has embraced your brand of tinfoil? 

Not many, but it is fairly obvious. You should see that yourself I hope. 

Quote

It doesn't seem like it actually was that much of a secret, since Barristan thinks of her having a stillborn girl and Cersei suggests Ned stole her child. 

After the fact. Many rumors spread, but at the time it would have been shameful for her, and her family. If she could keep it secret then all the better. 

Cersei faces rumors about her incestuous romance, but she would be destroyed if she confirmed them true. 

Quote

Because that's from years ago! It would have been easier to compare YG's age to Aegon's because small differences in time are relatively larger at young ages. 

15 and 18 are a noticeable difference, but who is to say Connington knows much about children, he didn't have any of his own. 

He is a gullible fool, and I'm afraid things won't end well for him. 

Quote

Why would Varys go along with such a bizarre plan? 

It is not bizarre at all, once they decide they don't want to kill Rhaegar's son and only heir (they believe), sending him to the house of black and white is the next best option. And it would have worked to if it weren't for the waif. 

It goes with the same logic of sending him to the wall. Unless of course you believe he wanted to join the nightswatch (of which there is no evidence). 

Quote

WHY was "the plan" to send a chest of Jaqen's things to YG!? 

That was not a plan, they were things laying around the house. Ilyrio has many interesting items we can find from reading Tyrion's chapter, from the lobster steel to the stone hands. 

Some of which he sends with Duck and Haldon. Expensive cloths, gold. Ginger that the boy does not touch, and a pair of child's clothing. 

The latter of which wasn't meant for Tyrion, so why did he send it I wonder? The same reason he sent the ginger, he was thinking of Aegon when he sent the things to his real son YG. 

Quote

Yes, tearing apart the clothes and stitching them back together makes them look like motley, appropriate for a dwarf jester, rather than just a child's clothes.

YG is too old for those clothes. When kids outgrow their clothes, parents tend to give them to smaller children or to Goodwill. And "any piece of clothing in the box" was used, it was all similar. 

If it wasn't for YG to wear, why send them at all? 

Septa Lemore could have made use of any old clothing for Tyrion, and if the plan was always to give Tyrion a motely to wear, Ilyrio would have just sent that along. 

Instead she destroys cloth that were once YG, and makes them into a crude motely. 

A septa does not make crude clothing unless it was a deliberate attempt. 

 

Quote

Because, as I said (and as did you, unintentionally) he's not the most obvious! 

It is obvious. You seem to have convince yourself that this isn't true, but let me ask you again. 

Does Aegon VI fit the description of the Valonqar? 

Does he have motive to want Cersei dead? 

Is he important (hint: yes, he has been mentioned in ambiguous ways since book 1, has been called the prince who was promised and the namesake of the entire series, George wants us to see he is important).  

So why is he not even considered by the main fan base that is willing to believe Tommen (????) is the valonqar. 

Is that not strange and Bizarre to you?

Quote

Nope, Jaime is closer to the person she believes to be the valonqar, and she never suspected Jaime because of the assumption that he will always love her. He's not taking the throne for himself (even if that was the plan under the pitch letter) and won't have underlings to seize it for him, but he has personally killed the person on the throne before. 

Why would his name be translated into valyrian? And how could he "wrap his hands" around her throat when he has a golden hand? 

It is not obvious and clear, far less so than the above. It's a fine theory, but it's too disconnected with the rest of the story, the one being told by the books. 

But that is all besides the point, you do not offer textual evidence. You say what would work for the fandom. It makes sense because it would fulfill his character arc, but that is what fans want, not what has been set up.  

Look at the cloth Cersei is wearing at the end of AGOT in sansa's chapter. A black dress studded with red rubies. This is after Robert's death, and she is wearing it as homage to the armor Rhaegar wore on the trident when Robert killed him. The premise of her visit to Maggy had nothing to do with Jaime.  

 

Yet for some reason people are convinced this is the truth, is that not completely bizarre?

Quote

Your "evidence" is not overwhelming, and your theory is crackpot rather than obvious. You are arguing with the entire world here while insisting you are the only sensible person. It's not just me who isn't convinced, nobody is. You need to think for yourself about why that is, and then come up with arguments that we don't laugh at so much. 

It is, but I am listening to what others say, and it is taken less from the actual text and more what they desire for the books to be about. 

It should, once you see the truth, makes sense, all the piece fall into place, as does the wider narrative.  

Quote

No, I think the show simplified things. R+L=J is important, details about marriage less so. 

Isn't this a little 'pick and choose'?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Alleras is shown to bath enough that it is mentionable.

How many times?

Quote

He also has a last name.

"Jaqen H'ghar" is not presented as a riddle.

Quote

Listen to any one of his discussions and he tells aspiring writers to read the classics.

I think he's less influenced by "the classics" than by 20th century historical fiction & fantasy. I've mentioned to CamiloRP how he's directly borrowed from The Accursed Kings (something he's explicitly cited as an inspiration) and cribbed from Lovecraft, but there's lots and lots of other examples.

Quote

Glib as in he is keeping a secret only he knows

Theon is described this way: "He smiled a lot, as if the world were a secret joke that only he was clever enough to understand".

Quote

But you see those two are not the subject matter, we are talking about her mystery character Jaqen. The evidence is meant for him, just like as the above.

Evidence is evidence regardless of who you want to talk about. If joining the Bloody Mummers is evidence for Jaqen, then it must be evidence for Biter & Rorge as well. You stating that "evidence is meant for him" doesn't make it so.

Quote

Why would he not?

BECAUSE HE WANTS HIS BELOVED WIFE WITH HIM!

Quote

They agreed to the plan

WHY would he agree to a plan that sends his wife & son away from him for years?

Quote

and the boy would need guidance

Couldn't he get that from someone more like Lemore presents herself to be? Haldon seems to really be just a half-maester, and he's giving guidance to YG.

Quote

but he does miss Serra

Then wouldn't he want her with him rather than away for years?

Quote

I'm surprise you find it so bizarre.

You keep getting surprised because your beliefs have such poor correspondence to reality.

Quote

Not many

I'm guessing NOBODY AT ALL.

Quote

I hope

You can hope that a meteor made of solid gold lands on your front-lawn, but there's no actual reason to expect that.

Quote

15 and 18 are a noticeable difference

6 vs 3 is a MUCH more noticeable difference.

Quote

but who is to say Connington knows much about children, he didn't have any of his own

Tyrion has no children of his own either!

Quote

once they decide they don't want to kill Rhaegar's son

WHY!?

Quote

sending him to the house of black and white is the next best option

WHY!? None of your reasoning makes any sense as the sort of thing someone would actually come up with in such circumstances. You are just trying to twist what evidence we do have to fit your crackpot theory.

Quote

That was not a plan

You are the one who said sending the chest was "the plan"!

Quote

so why did he send it I wonder

That's all of YG's stuff that he has left.

Quote

he was thinking of Aegon when he sent the things to his real son YG

It still doesn't make sense. Thinking of Jaqen shouldn't cause him to send such things to an entirely different person unless his brain is scrambled.

Quote

If it wasn't for YG to wear, why send them at all?

He's sending all of YG's stuff that he has left.

Quote

Septa Lemore could have made use of any old clothing for Tyrion

What old clothing? And would it fit, like a child's clothes would?

Quote

A septa does not make crude clothing unless it was a deliberate attempt.

She is deliberately attempting to make Tyrion look like a common jester rather than a wanted nobleman.

Quote

You seem to have convince yourself that this isn't true

There's no "convincing" required. We all start out not believing in your theory, and as your evidence has been laughable, we continue not believing it.

Quote

Does Aegon VI fit the description of the Valonqar?

He's not Cersei's valonqar specifically, and he didn't grow up with siblings as a valonqar to them.

[Does he have motive to want Cersei dead?]
Out of power, yes, dead, no. He doesn't have any personal beef with her, unlike Cersei's actual valonqars.

Quote

Is he important (hint: yes, he has been mentioned in ambiguous ways since book 1

I reject your hint's answer. Important characters have been in the series from the beginning. Aegon was believed to be dead all this time, so people just spoke of him as a dead child. Jaqen & YG have only actually appeared in a small number of chapters.

Quote

Why would his name be translated into valyrian?

"Valonqar" is not a translation of a name, but a relationship.

Quote

And how could he "wrap his hands" around her throat when he has a golden hand?

Tyrion chokes Shae to death with a chain of golden hands. Jaime could do that to Cersei.

Quote

it's too disconnected with the rest of the story, the one being told by the books

In the story being told by the books, Cersei & Jaime's relationship deteriorates. She requests him to come save her, but Jaime thinks she's unfaithful to him and burns her letter.

Quote

not what has been set up

How has Cersei & Jaime's relationship not set up a violent blowup? Tyrion's screwed up relationship with his father results in patricide. This is more of that screwed up Lannister family dynamic (the Freys also have family in-fighting, but of a more grubby and less important sort).

Quote

The premise of her visit to Maggy had nothing to do with Jaime.

That's why CERSEI can't guess correctly. But readers know in that very book how her relationship with Jaime has soured.

Quote

Isn't this a little 'pick and choose'?

No, when GRRM first met with D&D he asked them who Jon Snow's mother was before he agreed to let them adapt the books. We don't hear of him following that up with "And were his parents married?", because that wasn't important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How many times? 

Enough that it is mentionable. 

'at least he bathes' makes it noticeable, unlike someone who just happens to bath.

Quote

"Jaqen H'ghar" is not presented as a riddle. 

We'll see about that. 

Quote

I think he's less influenced by "the classics" than by 20th century historical fiction & fantasy. I've mentioned to CamiloRP how he's directly borrowed from The Accursed Kings (something he's explicitly cited as an inspiration) and cribbed from Lovecraft, but there's lots and lots of other examples. 

He also takes from medieval history, and later European history. 

The war of roses was the set up for the Lannister vs. Stark conflict. 

Well if you read english history, and want to no anything about the origins of Tolkien's fantasy, you will read Bede, Nennius, and Monmouth. 

The former two never claimed to be writing fantasy, they said they were writing the origin story of the English after the Romans abandoned the country. 

The Once and Future King is a retelling of Arthurian legend, and Arthurian legend has its roots in Nennius. 

GRRM knows these things, and is influenced by them. Note that none of these three writers are obscure, if you take a freshman class in medieval english literature, they will be among the first you learn of. 

Quote

Theon is described this way: "He smiled a lot, as if the world were a secret joke that only he was clever enough to understand". 

Yes, exactly. More to my point (always) smiling is associated with a hidden secret in ASOIAF. 

Quote

Evidence is evidence regardless of who you want to talk about. If joining the Bloody Mummers is evidence for Jaqen, then it must be evidence for Biter & Rorge as well. You stating that "evidence is meant for him" doesn't make it so. 

We know Biter is a made up name, so why couldn't Rorge be one as well? 

Also, we are looking at one character, evidence need not apply to anyone or everyone, especially when they are part of a whole. 

Edit: WAIT, 

in book 4 Rorge takes the identity of the hound, there is your bloody mummer.  

Quote

BECAUSE HE WANTS HIS BELOVED WIFE WITH HIM! 

He also leaves his son, and he expected to greet them again but couldn't make the journey. 

It is not so strange as you think. 

Also: "you don't know what you have until you lose it". 

Quote

WHY would he agree to a plan that sends his wife & son away from him for years? 

Because he did, with Connington. He expects to see them again as well, but this plan was in the making since Serra met with Ilyrio. Remember Varys was his childhood friend, he introduced them. 

Quote

Couldn't he get that from someone more like Lemore presents herself to be? Haldon seems to really be just a half-maester, and he's giving guidance to YG. 

The mother would not want to leave the son. 

This was well established by the series (regarding a baby swap, and other things). 

A mother could not bare to have their younger child sent away from them. Catelyn couldn't bare it with Bran, Gilly couldn't bare it with monster, and Elia couldn't bare it with Aegon. 

Why should Serra?

Quote

 

You keep getting surprised because your beliefs have such poor correspondence to reality. 

The truth is right there if you want to see it, but if you refuse I guess you can just wait for Winds of Winter (I know I am). 

It can be frustrating coming up with reasons why something works or doesn't when the answer is there staring you in the face. 

Quote

I'm guessing NOBODY AT ALL. 

Plenty of people, once you realize it most things start making sense. And if you dig deeper, you find overwhelming evidence (as I have presented to you). 

Quote

You can hope that a meteor made of solid gold lands on your front-lawn, but there's no actual reason to expect that. 

It is the truth, because it is right there in the text. The very words used tell you this, "the pisswater prince", the dragon egg at the citadel, the swineherd, the black and white door, the song of ice and fire, the mystery head of the shepherd, the pledge under the heart tree, the blanket in the house of black and white, the character arcs, the Valonqar, the "set a fire for love". 

History repeats it self, and it was love at the center. GRRM says Rhaegar was a "love-struck" prince, and Arya is the devourer of worms.  

There is no "well maybe this is true or maybe it is not." 

The details can be worked around, some I have suggested may be right or wrong, but just like R+L, it is the truth. 

I guess we could wait for TWOW, but it should have been made clear to you beyond a doubt by now. 

Quote

6 vs 3 is a MUCH more noticeable difference. 

Look up a picture of a three year old child and a six year old, if someone knows nothing about children, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. 

Quote

Tyrion has no children of his own either! 

Yes and he is not looking at a child, he is judging the age of a teenager. Something he has much experience with being around Joffrey and Sansa and Margery.  

Quote

WHY!?

WHY!? None of your reasoning makes any sense as the sort of thing someone would actually come up with in such circumstances. You are just trying to twist what evidence we do have to fit your crackpot theory. 

Why would he be sent to the wall? 

Saying removing any chance he has to claim his position does not fit their goals is wrong. And saying Ilyrio wants him dead is again foolish. 

Quote

You are the one who said sending the chest was "the plan"!

That's all of YG's stuff that he has left.

It still doesn't make sense. Thinking of Jaqen shouldn't cause him to send such things to an entirely different person unless his brain is scrambled.

He's sending all of YG's stuff that he has left.

What old clothing? And would it fit, like a child's clothes would?

She is deliberately attempting to make Tyrion look like a common jester rather than a wanted nobleman. 

Let us think this through. Just now he thinks to send of YG's belongings, but they are not made of any use? 

If the ginger is not touched and the clothes destroyed, why send them at all? 

Septa Lemore could have stitched a motely for Tyrion from any pair of clothing, no matter the size. She tore up the clothes, and a septa does not make crude clothing. 

But if the plan was always to have Tyrion be a fool, then Ilyrio would have sent a motely ahead with the chest.  

And sending things he has about one son that he knows to one he barely knows takes a little less than "scrambled brains". 

Quote

There's no "convincing" required. We all start out not believing in your theory, and as your evidence has been laughable, we continue not believing it. 

You should be convinced by now, if you are refusing to see the truth there is nothing I can do. Until the book comes out. 

Quote

He's not Cersei's valonqar specifically, and he didn't grow up with siblings as a valonqar to them. 

We have established it was "THE Valonqar", not "YOUR Valonqar" (AFFC makes a point of phrasing it both ways). 

Quote

[Does he have motive to want Cersei dead?]
Out of power, yes, dead, no. He doesn't have any personal beef with her, unlike Cersei's actual valonqars. 

Does Dany have personal beef with the "usurper's dogs"?

Quote

I reject your hint's answer. Important characters have been in the series from the beginning. Aegon was believed to be dead all this time, so people just spoke of him as a dead child. Jaqen & YG have only actually appeared in a small number of chapters. 

Something mentioned multiple times with obscurity is meant to create a question in the head of readers. If you have every read a detective novel, you would understand this. 

AGOT: "Some said it had been Gregor who’d dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword. These things were not said in Gregor’s hearing.

The boy who was not recognized, Ashara Dayne, everything that is treated with ambiguity is done for a reason. 

And least we forget, Dany had a vision about Aegon VI.

Quote

"Valonqar" is not a translation of a name, but a relationship. 

It's a title actually, and it is said in Valyrian when it has a simple translation in the common tongue. 

Why would Maggy, who has been speaking in the common tongue this whole time, switch languages for this word if Jaime is behind the prophecy?

Quote

Tyrion chokes Shae to death with a chain of golden hands. Jaime could do that to Cersei. 

That would require him to be hand of the king (his hands) which I don't see happening. As well as all of the above. 

"until comes another, younger and more beautiful". 

So someone will cast her down and another will kill her? It makes more sense for these people to be the same people. 

Quote

In the story being told by the books, Cersei & Jaime's relationship deteriorates. She requests him to come save her, but Jaime thinks she's unfaithful to him and burns her letter. 

Yes, and he still won't kill her. If it was him the show would have kept the Valonqar prophecy. They cut it because they cut the three heads of the dragon and the prince who was promised plotline so it would not work. 

Quote

How has Cersei & Jaime's relationship not set up a violent blowup? Tyrion's screwed up relationship with his father results in patricide. This is more of that screwed up Lannister family dynamic (the Freys also have family in-fighting, but of a more grubby and less important sort). 

They are already separated, things may get worse, or they may get better (depending on what happens with lady stoneheart). We'll have to wait and see. 

Quote

That's why CERSEI can't guess correctly. But readers know in that very book how her relationship with Jaime has soured. 

Well technically, so does she at the point she is reliving the prophecy. Tyrion is also nowhere related to Maggy the frog and entering that tent, but Cersei supposes it is him anyways. 

Quote

No, when GRRM first met with D&D he asked them who Jon Snow's mother was before he agreed to let them adapt the books. We don't hear of him following that up with "And were his parents married?", because that wasn't important.

Yes, and more was told afterwards. 

GRRM said he wanted to leave ambiguity in terms of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. I should guess he told them what they felt for each other at some point. 

But again you can still believe this part to be added, only that we must treat what was on the show by an equal standard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/15/2020 at 9:51 AM, butterweedstrover said:

'at least he bathes' makes it noticeable, unlike someone who just happens to bath.

The quote perfectly fits someone who "just happens to bathe". Lazy Leo is insulting everyone, and the full quote is as follows: "Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs. Meaning no offense. You may be brown as a nut, but at least you bathe. Unlike our spotted pig boy." He is both calling Alleras part-monkey (and animals are not known to bathe), and then noting that him being "brown as a nut" is despite bathing (which Leo is putting forward as a low bar) rather than from being covered in mud, then seguing to an insult of Pate (falling below that low bar).

Quote

We'll see about that.

I'm talking about what already happened. Alleras is directly tied to riddles in a way that Jaqen is not.

Quote

He also takes from medieval history, and later European history.

I think he's more into historical fiction than actual history.

Quote

GRRM knows these things, and is influenced by them. Note that none of these three writers are obscure, if you take a freshman class in medieval english literature, they will be among the first you learn of.

Yeah, I've read Monmouth's history. I'm not aware of any evidence GRRM has drawn directly from him rather than later Arthuriana.

Quote

Yes, exactly. More to my point (always) smiling is associated with a hidden secret in ASOIAF.

But Theon wasn't some fake identity, and he's not even a Faceless Man. He's just prone to smiling.

Quote

We know Biter is a made up name, so why couldn't Rorge be one as well?

It could be, we just have no particular reason to believe this.

Quote

in book 4 Rorge takes the identity of the hound, there is your bloody mummer.

And in the same book the Alchemist takes the identity of Pate! Too bad about Biter staying Biter, he doesn't have the acting chops to be anyone else.

Quote

He also leaves his son

According to you.

Quote

It is not so strange as you think

For a loving couple, yes it does seem strange. You'd be more likely to expect that from people who are estranged.

Quote

Also: "you don't know what you have until you lose it"

Illyrio was blackballed immediately after marrying Serra. He knew he was giving something up by marrying her. This is not something he needed to come to appreciate later.

Quote

Because he did

That's not an explanation for WHY.

Quote

Remember Varys was his childhood friend, he introduced them.

There's no evidence for that.

Quote

The mother would not want to leave the son

Westerosi noblewomen are able to adjust themselves to fostering, but admittedly Serra is just some Lysene bed-slave.

Quote

Catelyn couldn't bare it with Bran

She wanted to be with him when he was in a coma, she left even Bran after the assassination attempt.

Quote

Elia couldn't bare it with Aegon

Your assumption is that Aegon WAS sent away early on, which is actually less likely given your characterization of her.

Quote

Plenty of people

Give one example of a person other than you who thinks Jaqen is Aegon VI.

Quote

just like R+L, it is the truth

R+L=J was confirmed by the show, and figuring it out was a requirement for D&D to adapt it in the first place. Nothing comparable exists for this, and you are the only one to believe it.

Quote

Look up a picture of a three year old child and a six year old, if someone knows nothing about children, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

A 3 year old is half the age of a six year old, they look a lot more like babies.

Quote

Why would he be sent to the wall?

Because he commits crimes.

Quote

And saying Ilyrio wants him dead is again foolish.

Your assumption that they wanted to prevent him from claiming his position would imply that his death would be desirable. Sending him toe HoBaW would not make him ineligible for any inherited title, although it would separate him from the people he knew previously if he actually went through it (which they can't guarntee, which is a reason not to send him there in the first place).

Quote

Just now he thinks to send of YG's belongings, but they are not made of any use?

He's been apart from YG for years and has held on to YG's childhood things. This was to be the last chance to meetup before he joined the GC to invade Westeros. If there was ever a time to send those things (and arguably there isn't, he could just throw them away), it's now.

Quote

If the ginger is not touched and the clothes destroyed, why send them at all?

Illyrio doesn't actually know if YG will eat the candied ginger, he just thinks he will because he did in the past. Sending it to someone you DON'T know ever liked it doesn't make sense.

Quote

Septa Lemore could have stitched a motely for Tyrion from any pair of clothing

What other spare pair of clothing does she have?

Quote

no matter the size

It's harder to change the size of clothing.

Quote

She tore up the clothes, and a septa does not make crude clothing.

For some dwarf she's trying to disguise, why not?

Quote

But if the plan was always to have Tyrion be a fool, then Ilyrio would have sent a motely ahead with the chest.

I don't think he thought far enough ahead to acquire any motley for Tyrion. Tyrion is a later addition along for the ride.

Quote

And sending things he has about one son that he knows to one he barely knows takes a little less than "scrambled brains"

Why not? Why else wound he send those to the wrong person?

Quote

if you are refusing to see the truth there is nothing I can do

What you can do is try to take on the perspective of someone who doesn't already believe in your theory and try to think of what evidence would convince such a person. So far you've presented a lot of stuff that's just in your head rather than in the text and tendentious symbolism.

Quote

We have established it was "THE Valonqar"

What makes one valonqar THE valonqar?

Quote

Does Dany have personal beef with the "usurper's dogs"?

Not enough to strangle Cersei with her own hands.

Quote

Something mentioned multiple times with obscurity is meant to create a question in the head of readers. If you have every read a detective novel, you would understand this.

This isn't a detective novel, it's a big sprawling fantasy series. The big mystery everyone has latched onto is R+L=J.

Quote

These things were not said in Gregor’s hearing

Because Gregor would murder whoever said it!

Quote

It's a title actually

Who calls it a "title"? And who would grant such a title?

Quote

Why would Maggy, who has been speaking in the common tongue this whole time, switch languages for this word if Jaime is behind the prophecy?

She speaks Valyrian and there's no single-word equivalent in Common.

Quote

That would require him to be hand of the king (his hands) which I don't see happening

Cersei tried to convince Jaime to take the position in AFfC, and she's running low on allies (the last man she appointed Hand fled). Additionally, since he has a golden hand, a chain of golden hands is like a plural version of that hand, particularly if Jaime is the one using the chain as a weapon.

Quote

So someone will cast her down and another will kill her? It makes more sense for these people to be the same people.

Why? The person at the top of the political order usually doesn't personally kill the person previously occupying that spot. Maggie doesn't even mention the valonqar until after the younger more beautiful bit. Wouldn't it make more sense for her to first introduce the valonqar and then say that person will do both things?

Quote

If it was him the show would have kept the Valonqar prophecy

You expect them to bring up a prophecy containing a Valyrian word that would have to be translated later, so they could have the payoff seasons later? They even brought up Tysha in the first season but never mentioned her later on.

Quote

They are already separated, things may get worse, or they may get better (depending on what happens with lady stoneheart)

I guess if LSH kills Jaime he's much less likely to kill Cersei, but otherwise I'd expect him to return to KL.

Quote

Tyrion is also nowhere related to Maggy the frog

He's related to CERSEI, just as Jaime is. And Tyrion killing Joffrey & Tyrin (years after his birth killed Joanna) serves as confirmation to Cersei that she was right about him.

Quote

Yes, and more was told afterwards.

More was told when they were starting to run out of book material. Season 2 was early in the process, with GRRM still contributing episodes, but there was still no swearing in front of a heart-tree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The quote perfectly fits someone who "just happens to bathe". Lazy Leo is insulting everyone, and the full quote is as follows: "Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs. Meaning no offense. You may be brown as a nut, but at least you bathe. Unlike our spotted pig boy." He is both calling Alleras part-monkey (and animals are not known to bathe), and then noting that him being "brown as a nut" is despite bathing (which Leo is putting forward as a low bar) rather than from being covered in mud, then seguing to an insult of Pate (falling below that low bar). 

*Note the numbers below...

Alleras: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) "He was a comely youth, their Sphinx. All the serving wenches doted on him. Even Rosey would sometimes touch him on the arm when she brought him wine, and Pate had to gnash his teeth and pretend not to see." 

(2) "The Sphinx was always smiling, as if he knew some secret jape. It gave him a wicked look that went well with his pointed chin, widow’s peak, and dense mat of close-cropped jet-black curls." 

(3) "A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel’s main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx."  

(4) "he had not come here to drink, but Alleras had been buying to celebrate his copper link, and guilt had made him thirsty"

Jaqen H'ghar: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(4) "The prisoner lifted an empty tankard, his chains rattling. “A man could use another taste of beer. A man has a thirst, wearing these heavy bracelets.” 

(2) "He was the youngest of the three, slender, fine-featured, always smiling. His hair was red on one side and white on the other, all matted and filthy from cage and travel. “A man could use a bath too,” 

(1) "But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration."

(3) I could come up for a quote here, but just note that Jaqen has red and white hair, and he is half dornish, "a bit of this, a bit of that". Like a sphinx his a mut, a mix breed. 

 

***

Rorge (Bonus): "Black hair covered his arms and legs and chest, even his back. He reminded Arya of a drawing she had once seen in a book, of an ape from the Summer Isles. The hole in his face made it hard to look at him for long."

Alleras' mother (bonus): “Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs. 

 

The Purpose here is to show the comparison between the two, they are both playing an act, a false role. The Sphinx, half Dornish. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I'm talking about what already happened. Alleras is directly tied to riddles in a way that Jaqen is not. 

As above so below. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think he's more into historical fiction than actual history. 

The war of roses would like a word with you. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Yeah, I've read Monmouth's history. I'm not aware of any evidence GRRM has drawn directly from him rather than later Arthuriana. 

Nennius was both historical fiction and fantasy. In truth he was the first of what we would recognize as modern medieval fantasy. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

But Theon wasn't some fake identity, and he's not even a Faceless Man. He's just prone to smiling. 

He does later as Reek. But the point isn't what Theon was, the point is what "always smiling" is connotated to in ASOIAF, and that is keeping a secret. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

For a loving couple, yes it does seem strange. You'd be more likely to expect that from people who are estranged.

Illyrio was blackballed immediately after marrying Serra. He knew he was giving something up by marrying her. This is not something he needed to come to appreciate later.

That's not an explanation for WHY. 

It happened, so the explanation is there, we just have to find it. Same with Serra, the Lyseni pillow house with white/silver hair and bluish eyes is YG's mother. 

That is where the odd sadness came from with Ilyrio. 

And he is faegon, the arbor gold. 

I already went over the metaphor of Arbor Gold and Urine, that is proof from the text. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There's no evidence for that. 

Not yet, and maybe it happened differently, but I have reason to suspect. 

We know they are childhood friends, and that they are working together in some capacity, including Varys supporting YG. So why why would he care about Serra's child...

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

She wanted to be with him when he was in a coma, she left even Bran after the assassination attempt. 

No this was before. In AGOT, when Catelyn gets the letter from Lysa that gets Ned to go south, she begs him to leave her Bran. 

This is before the fall and Bran's coma. 

"I could not bear it" Catelyn said trembling. 

"But please Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven"

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Your assumption is that Aegon WAS sent away early on, which is actually less likely given your characterization of her. 

Rhaegar didn't give her a choice. 

Back to Jon for a second: 

"Another woman would have shrieked at him, cursed him, damned him down to seven hells. Another woman might have flown at him in rage, slapped him, kicked him, raked at his eyes with her nails. Another woman might have thrown her defiance in his teeth." 

That is Elia, that is her defiance. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Give one example of a person other than you who thinks Jaqen is Aegon VI. 

They exist, not on this site evidently. I have a friend who is convinced as well, but sometimes people are stuck in denial.  

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

R+L=J was confirmed by the show, and figuring it out was a requirement for D&D to adapt it in the first place. Nothing comparable exists for this, and you are the only one to believe it. 

The show confirmed a lot of things, and the opposite for many others. 

My point was for the overarching story it is much the same, but D&D chose to make Jon "Aegon" so he would play three or four roles. 

So the three heads of the dragon storyline was cut. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

A 3 year old is half the age of a six year old, they look a lot more like babies. 

Google pictures of three years old and six year old.

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Because he commits crimes. 

What crime was that exactly?

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Your assumption that they wanted to prevent him from claiming his position would imply that his death would be desirable. Sending him toe HoBaW would not make him ineligible for any inherited title, although it would separate him from the people he knew previously if he actually went through it (which they can't guarntee, which is a reason not to send him there in the first place). 

It was a good plan. No one could not be Aegon. 

They didn't know about the Waif however (which to be fair was impossible to know). 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's been apart from YG for years and has held on to YG's childhood things. This was to be the last chance to meetup before he joined the GC to invade Westeros. If there was ever a time to send those things (and arguably there isn't, he could just throw them away), it's now. 

Sure. And yet between him and the shy maid their is a dissonance. 

None of the items for YG, neither the ginger nor the clothes meant anything to him. So what was the point?

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Illyrio doesn't actually know if YG will eat the candied ginger, he just thinks he will because he did in the past. Sending it to someone you DON'T know ever liked it doesn't make sense. 

It makes as much sense as sending his childhood clothes only to have it ripped to shreds. He could have sent anything in its place, the mansion has a lot of stuff. He chose the things in that (those) chest(s).

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What other spare pair of clothing does she have? 

The others in the chest? 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's harder to change the size of clothing. 

Not when she ripped them in half. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

For some dwarf she's trying to disguise, why not? 

Ripping YG clothes in half, a sign of disrespect, and turning them into fools motely is not the action of a mother (or motherly figure). 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think he thought far enough ahead to acquire any motley for Tyrion. Tyrion is a later addition along for the ride. 

Huh? Pentos is a big city, and the mansion is big. If Ilyrio wanted a pair of motely, he could have one at a moments notice. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why not? Why else wound he send those to the wrong person? 

Because that is what is in the Manse, and he means to send them away, to the new 'Aegon'. 

What is a better time than now. Too bad Lemore ripped them to shreds. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What you can do is try to take on the perspective of someone who doesn't already believe in your theory and try to think of what evidence would convince such a person. So far you've presented a lot of stuff that's just in your head rather than in the text and tendentious symbolism. 

There is overwhelming evidence from the text, and everything I conclude is from the text. Including the dragon egg and Serra being YG's mother. 

But let's overview some things directly from the text right now: 

"The bald one opened his mouth and hissed like some immense white lizard. When Arya flinched back, startled, he opened his mouth wide and waggled his tongue at her, only it was more a stump than a tongue. “Stop that,” she blurted." [Biter] -- Arya is taming a dragon here, as Quentyn was trying to do to Viserion (the white lizard).  

She does not have dragon blood, but she will be a rider. 

"Biter threw himself furiously against his chains" [Biter] - At the fires in the Gods Eye  

I have demonstrated to you, I hope, the burning in the Gods eye is a metaphor for the burning of Kingslanding. 

When Jaqen is watching Arya, there is another in the cage (Biter) beating against his chain. Like Viserion in the dragon tamer chapter. 

And who is Biter representing? The great white lizard Viserion. 

The black smoke is Drogon. 

-Daenerys: Three fires must light... one to love. 

I have established beyond a reasonable doubt that Arya is the devourer of worms. The third head of the dragon. 

I have established the imagery of her being married under a heart tree like Lyanna. (Notice also there is a fArya and a fAegon)

I have established Jaqen's role in Harrenhall, parallel to Gendry and Arya. 

I have established the strider and swineherd parallel at the citadel. 

I have established the dragon egg and its role 

I have established the Valonqar (and will do so again). 

I have offered enumerable amount of quotes and evidence. 

But more so than any of that, it is common sense when you see it, not radical tinfoil theory. 

There is a reason the arbor gold and the pisswater prince was introduced to us so late in the game.

 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What makes one valonqar THE valonqar? 

The word "the". 

It is not "your" Valonqar as one of the characters in AFFC says. 

Jaime is "your little brother" 

not "the little brother." 

As for Aegon, you see that is what he is remembered as. He never 'lived' long enough to grow out of the title. He is Rhaenys little brother, the boy who died young. If he lived till an old age that might be different. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Not enough to strangle Cersei with her own hands. 

The red hand. 

Remember the play in the Mercy chapter, the bloody hand, the one where it says Tyrion kills Cersei's son, but it is actually the hooded stranger (hint: the alchemist calls himself the stranger). 

The red right hand, the bloody hand, is from Paradise lost. It means the hand of vengeance. 

Cersei and her family took everything from Aegon, and now she sits on the throne that belongs to his older sister. He is the hand of vengeance. And he will take vengeance on those that butchered his family and took his throne. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

This isn't a detective novel, it's a big sprawling fantasy series. The big mystery everyone has latched onto is R+L=J. 

It's a fantasy novel with meta mysteries. 

I think one problem fantasy readers have is that they don't see the literary devices related to detective storytelling, so they look pass clear hints. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Because Gregor would murder whoever said it! 

That's what they think. 

But it goes back to the point, no one ever confronted him with the claim. They just assumed. And this goes back to detective novels, that is a literary device. 

Even if it's just a red herring. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Who calls it a "title"? And who would grant such a title? 

I did, just now. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She speaks Valyrian and there's no single-word equivalent in Common. 

Yes, she could say the "little brother". 

Instead she switched languages for that one word, but otherwise spoke in the common tongue.  

You must see what I mean, you must. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Why? The person at the top of the political order usually doesn't personally kill the person previously occupying that spot. Maggie doesn't even mention the valonqar until after the younger more beautiful bit. Wouldn't it make more sense for her to first introduce the valonqar and then say that person will do both things? 

Look at the line, they work as the same subject: 

the younger and more beautiful person will cast you down, and when you're tears have drowned you the Valonqar will kill you. 

Person a will cast you down and once you finished crying person b will kill you. 

Unless they are the same subject, which makes more sense since there is no reason to insert a second subject without introducing it. 

The sentence assumes we already know who the Valonqar is. (Person a is the descriptor, person b is the noun). 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You expect them to bring up a prophecy containing a Valyrian word that would have to be translated later, so they could have the payoff seasons later? They even brought up Tysha in the first season but never mentioned her later on. 

Tysha was from season 1 when they had no clue what they were doing. GRRM asked them to keep Rickon in and they did nothing with the boy later on. 

By season 5 they were making cuts left and right. 

They obviously didn't keep the three head prophecy, but they thought the first part of Maggy's prophecy would work fine for Dany so they kept it. 

If the Valonqar was Jaime, they would have kept that as well, and most show watchers expected that to be in it. Even those who know nothing about the books: 

https://www.bustle.com/p/jaime-fulfilled-the-valonqar-prophecy-on-game-of-thrones-it-wasnt-the-only-prophecy-that-came-full-circle-in-the-bells-17868360 

But alas they never put it into the Maggy scene. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

He's related to CERSEI, just as Jaime is. And Tyrion killing Joffrey & Tyrin (years after his birth killed Joanna) serves as confirmation to Cersei that she was right about him. 

Not Your Valonqar. 

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

More was told when they were starting to run out of book material. Season 2 was early in the process, with GRRM still contributing episodes, but there was still no swearing in front of a heart-tree.

Because it didn't mean anything on the show. In the books it was a deliberate scene, more so once you see it failed in translating onto TV. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

dense mat of close-cropped jet-black curls

Quote

all matted and filthy from cage and travel

The first is Alleras normally, when presumably he's bathed not too long ago. The second is Jaqen only when he HASN'T in a long time, and is filthy. And we would expect Rorge to have similar hair for that reason.

Quote

he had not come here to drink, but Alleras had been buying to celebrate his copper link, and guilt had made him thirsty

Quote

A man has a thirst, wearing these heavy bracelets.

In the first case "he" is Pate, guilty & thirsty, NOT Alleras. In the second case, "a man" is Jaqen.

Quote

I could come up for a quote here, but just note that Jaqen has red and white hair, and he is half dornish, "a bit of this, a bit of that".

There is no evidence that Jaqen is half-Dornish, nor that people of mixed-parentage have bi-colored hair.

Quote

 

Rorge (Bonus): "Black hair covered his arms and legs and chest, even his back. He reminded Arya of a drawing she had once seen in a book, of an ape from the Summer Isles. The hole in his face made it hard to look at him for long."

Alleras' mother (bonus): “Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs.

 

I'm glad you included this bonus: it shows how your method "proves too much"! Rorge wasn't part of your theory, but you can make the supposed "parallels" with him. He's already dead and we don't expect to learn any more about him, he is just as he appeared to be. Anything he has in common with Alleras is merely a coincidence.

Quote

The Purpose here is to show the comparison between the two, they are both playing an act, a false role

Is Rorge?

Quote

As above so below.

What are you talking about? There's no equivalent for "the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler" for Jaqen.

Quote

The war of roses would like a word with you

That's the subject of multiple plays from Shakespeare, which are historical fiction. "The Bloody Hand" in the Mercy chapter is directly isnpired by Richard III (and people had earlier been noting that Tyrion seemed to be inspired by both Shakespeare's Richard III and the title character of I Claudius, which GRRM has recently plugged).

Quote

Nennius was both historical fiction and fantasy. In truth he was the first of what we would recognize as modern medieval fantasy.

Again, is there evidence for GRRM drawing from sources that early? The Epic of Gilgamesh might be said by some to be the "first" fantasy story, but that doesn't establish any direct link from it to ASoIaF.

Quote

"always smiling" is connotated to in ASOIAF, and that is keeping a secret

Does being a Faceless Man not qualify as a secret?

Quote

It happened, so the explanation is there

YOU CAN'T ASSUME YOUR CONCLUSION IN ORDER TO PROVE IT! THAT'S "BEGGING THE QUESTION". HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU!?

Quote

I already went over the metaphor of Arbor Gold and Urine, that is proof from the text.

That's not "proof" of anything.

Quote

We know they are childhood friends

Varys was a mummer slave as a child, and after being sold to a sorceror who castrated him he worked himself up to becoming the most notable thief in Myr. It was only after he fled Myr for Pentos that he met Illyrio, at which time Illyrio was a bravo rather than a "child".

Quote

That is Elia, that is her defiance.

You don't actually know that, you simply made it up.

Quote

They exist, not on this site evidently. I have a friend who is convinced as well

So you have no verifiable evidence of ANYONE ELSE on the entire internet who thinks Jaqen is Aegon VI.

Quote

My point was for the overarching story it is much the same, but D&D chose to make Jon "Aegon" so he would play three or four roles.

YG was entirely cut, but JAQEN WAS NOT. Jaqen even re-appears in Braavos, but we don't get any of the Alchemist or Pate because D&D didn't deem the Oldtown plot to be that important.

Quote

Google pictures of three years old and six year old.

I already did, and stand by what I said. They look different.

Quote

What crime was that exactly?

Most notably, murder.

Quote

It was a good plan.

No, it's not. He could just quit if he decides he doesn't like it! The Waif has an explanation for why she's there: in repayment for the FM killing her wicked stepmother. Why would Jaqen feel any such obligation under your theory?

Quote

They didn't know about the Waif however (which to be fair was impossible to know).

YOU still don't know about the Waif. There's no evidence for your theory about her.

Quote

None of the items for YG, neither the ginger nor the clothes meant anything to him. So what was the point?

To ILLYRIO there is an important connection between those things & YG: those are connected to his most recent memories of YG. YG himself and his companions don't have the same perspective, because he's grown up amongst them and they think of him as the young man he is now rather than the child from years ago. There really would be no point of Illyrio sending things to YG if they were never connected to him in the first place but instead to Jaqen!

Quote

It makes as much sense as sending his childhood clothes only to have it ripped to shreds

Illyrio didn't plan for that, Lemore decided to do that. And it made sense from her POV.

Quote

He could have sent anything in its place, the mansion has a lot of stuff. He chose the things in that (those) chest(s).

Because he associates them with YG, not Jaqen!

Quote

The others in the chest?

That chest is described as "packed with a child's clothing" and Lemore is said to have "slit <b>each</b> garment apart". I don't see a reference to any spare clothes that could be in grownup YG's size.

Quote

Not when she ripped them in half.

Cutting things in half and stitching halves back together is simpler than resizing, and can be done "crudely". Even Tyrion was able to contribute, and he's no tailor. Taking a collection of children's clothes and turning them into something a young adult can wear would be a much different task, particularly as YG is not being presented as a jester.

Quote

If Ilyrio wanted a pair of motely

Like I said, I don't think Illyrio thought that far out. Tyrion was not part of his plan, Varys simply sent Tyrion to him after things went down in KL.

Quote

Because that is what is in the Manse, and he means to send them away, to the new 'Aegon'.

WHY!? If they have nothing to do with YG, there is no reason at all to send them! If he wants to get rid of them, he can simply throw them in the street at any time.

Quote

Too bad Lemore ripped them to shreds.

What's bad about it? What has been lost? Is there a child who could really use those clothes?

Quote

Arya is taming a dragon here

No, she's not. Biter is not a dragon and Arya didn't tame him.

Quote

She does not have dragon blood, but she will be a rider.

You don't know that.

Quote

I have demonstrated to you, I hope, the burning in the Gods eye is a metaphor for the burning of Kingslanding.

You haven't "demonstrated" anything. You just keep asserting things.

Quote

When Jaqen is watching Arya, there is another in the cage (Biter) beating against his chain. Like Viserion in the dragon tamer chapter.

The dragon tamer chapter does not depict the burning of KL!

Quote

And who is Biter representing?

Who says he must represent anything other than himself?

Quote

The black smoke is Drogon.

Why is one dragon supposed to be represented by Biter and another by smoke? Those two "representations" have nothing in common other than the lack of a full tongue (even though dragons do have tongues). And what about the third dragon?

Quote

But more so than any of that, it is common sense when you see it, not radical tinfoil theory.

Commons sense is, by definition, COMMON. And nobody but you believes in this theory! You haven't "established" anything.

Quote

 

Jaime is "your little brother"

not "the little brother."

 

How does being the former exclude being the latter?

Quote

As for Aegon, you see that is what he is remembered as

WHO remembers him as the brother of anyone rather than the son of Rhaegar? In contrast, people do think of Jaime & Tyrion as the Queen's brothers.

Quote

He never 'lived' long enough to grow out of the title. He is Rhaenys little brother, the boy who died young. If he lived till an old age that might be different.

But under your theory, Aegon is Jaqen, who DID live long enough! Cersei can't very well be strangled by somebody who died young.

Quote

Cersei and her family took everything from Aegon

Her family did, but NOT Cersei herself. And of the people responsible, Tywin was killed by Tyrion, Amory by Vargo Hoat, and Gregor seems to be undead. If Cersei is to be blamed for anything, it's cheating on her obligations to the Martells regarding Gregor.

Quote

That's what they think.

Gregor is notorious for the deaths in his family (and Sandor's injury) along with the fate of many of his servants and wives. He lashes out very easily.

Quote

But it goes back to the point, no one ever confronted him with the claim

Oberyn did, and Gregor admitted it during the trial by combat! Since everyone knows there was a child of Aegon's age with a smashed head, and Tywin has admitted to sending Gregor into the Red Keep where the children & Elia were, I don't know why you bother to argue about this point.

Quote

I did, just now.

You're not a character in this fictional world, you don't get to grant any titles actually referenced in it.

Quote

Yes, she could say the "little brother".

That's two words.

Quote

Person a will cast you down and once you finished crying person b will kill you.

Yup, that works perfectly well. Although it's not a line she actually said, instead there are separate lines in response to different questions and no indication that the subjects of the different responses are related to each other.

Quote

Tysha was from season 1 when they had no clue what they were doing. GRRM asked them to keep Rickon in and they did nothing with the boy later on.

Rickon was in the show for the first three seasons, which was also the time during which he has appeared so far in the books.

Quote

If the Valonqar was Jaime, they would have kept that as well, and most show watchers expected that to be in it. Even those who know nothing about the books

They already ticked a lot of people off with the sept scene where Cersei's verbal indications of consent were left out. To then have her rapist strangle her would be a lot on top of that. Particularly since fan-favorite Brienne is still supposed to sympathize with him. As it is, the show still had her die with Jaime's had literally around her neck.

Quote

Not Your Valonqar.

Your valonqar is a valonqar, why can't that valonqar be the valonqar?

Quote

Because it didn't mean anything on the show

Tysha didn't mean much on the show but was still included.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The first is Alleras normally, when presumably he's bathed not too long ago. The second is Jaqen only when he HASN'T in a long time, and is filthy. And we would expect Rorge to have similar hair for that reason. 

I'm talking about the word use for matted. 

Quote

In the first case "he" is Pate, guilty & thirsty, NOT Alleras. In the second case, "a man" is Jaqen. 

No, let's look at it this way. 

Alleras has the chains, and is celebrating with cider. 

Jaqen is chained up and wants beer. 

Notice cider and beer are both fermented alcohol. 

https://food.ndtv.com/food-drinks/what-is-the-difference-between-beer-and-cider-1477374#:~:text=1.,is made from apple juice. 

 

Both are different versions of the same position (Alleras won his chain and is drinking cider, Jaqen is forced into his chain and wants beer). 

Quote

There is no evidence that Jaqen is half-Dornish, nor that people of mixed-parentage have bi-colored hair. 

Aegon VI is half dornish. 

Quote

I'm glad you included this bonus: it shows how your method "proves too much"! Rorge wasn't part of your theory, but you can make the supposed "parallels" with him. He's already dead and we don't expect to learn any more about him, he is just as he appeared to be. Anything he has in common with Alleras is merely a coincidence. 

I'm going to stop you right there. 

I am not comparing Rorge to Alleras. 

I am comparing Rorge to Alleras' MOTHER. 

Both are described like apes from the summer isles. Both are related to Jaqen/Alleras.  

Quote

Is Rorge? 

It doesn't matter if he is or not, because he isn't Jaqen. 

Now I can say Biter is a made up name and Rorge takes the identity of the hound, that relates them back to the bloody mummers. 

But even if not, it wouldn't matter.

Quote

What are you talking about? There's no equivalent for "the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler" for Jaqen. 

Yes it is. The Sphinx is called so because "it is a bit of that and a bit of this". 

Jaqen has two hair colors, he is ice and fire, his targaryen and dornish. He is a sphinx like Alleras. 

The point of the riddle was to establish what a Sphinx is, and the prologue to AFFC tells us. 

Quote

That's the subject of multiple plays from Shakespeare, which are historical fiction. "The Bloody Hand" in the Mercy chapter is directly isnpired by Richard III (and people had earlier been noting that Tyrion seemed to be inspired by both Shakespeare's Richard III and the title character of I Claudius, which GRRM has recently plugged). 

The bloody hand is not the first time red hand is used. 

In Sam's chapter in Braavos, he talked about taking Aemon to the red hand healers. The Mercy chapter takes place in the same city around the same time. 

There are multiple meanings behind the same thing (polysemy), and that is why the stranger is in the play. 

Not, the alchemist calls himself the stranger. 

Quote

Again, is there evidence for GRRM drawing from sources that early? The Epic of Gilgamesh might be said by some to be the "first" fantasy story, but that doesn't establish any direct link from it to ASoIaF. 

I know he has read it, which is what matters. 

If GRRM ever studied medieval history, which he has, he has read Nennius (I cannot stress enough, Nennius is the origin point for Arthurian legend. He is the primary source for Merlin the mage. Marwyn was named after him). 

Quote

Does being a Faceless Man not qualify as a secret? 

For Arya? No. 

She doesn't know what a facelessman is, and if she did she would figure it out. That is why he gives her the coin. That is not a secret he is hiding in plain sight. 

When does that cocky smile drop? 

1. When he is burning 

2. When Arya calls him a king (and he is more nervous this time). 

Quote

YOU CAN'T ASSUME YOUR CONCLUSION IN ORDER TO PROVE IT! THAT'S "BEGGING THE QUESTION". HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU!? 

But it did happen, do you disagree?

Quote

That's not "proof" of anything. 

The proof is that it's in the text. 

The same text that has reinforced the dichotomy between lies (arbor gold) and truth (urine). 

That is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. 

Quote

Varys was a mummer slave as a child, and after being sold to a sorceror who castrated him he worked himself up to becoming the most notable thief in Myr. It was only after he fled Myr for Pentos that he met Illyrio, at which time Illyrio was a bravo rather than a "child". 

Interesting, you are correct. 

However the point was is that they were working closely BEFORE YG was born and BEFORE Varys was working for the mad king.  

Quote

You don't actually know that, you simply made it up. 

Well, the answer is there if you want to see it... 

Quote

So you have no verifiable evidence of ANYONE ELSE on the entire internet who thinks Jaqen is Aegon VI. 

There are some. Note: None of these people are me. 

https://first-of-her-nxme.tumblr.com/post/184501320486/hey-it-was-a-nice-experience-going-through-your#:~:text=Jaqen is as Arry - a,or Vhagar%2C a dragon name. 

"Btw it is not my idea that Jaqen is Aegon, it’s as old as A Clash of Kings 

Some interesting points I didn't figure out yet from this person: 

"They are both orphans - A man’s sire is long dead ( J. even speaks like Rhaegar: My royal sire fears your father...) - his parents were killed, Arya’s father was murdered too and her mother is about to die soon" 

"I have promises to keep. - I am the prince that was promised." [my insert: Jaqen remembers he is the prince who was promised, and he is on a mission to fulfill that destiny, but he's not sure what is. 

There is more in the post if you want to read. 

Another: 

https://www.quora.com/How-come-Jaqen-Hghar-occasionally-breaks-away-from-his-usual-Lorathi-speech-pattern/answer/Agnieszka-Myślińska 

 

Also, my offline friend knows it is the truth as well, and he is far more prickly when it comes to theories than almost anyone on this site or reddit. 

Once you see it, everything makes sense.  

 

edit: What I find more interesting is, despite how immensely obvious it is, how few people seem to see it. 

I guess because then many and more the desperate mysteries would answer themselves. 

In the coming years I think it would be a great sociological study on how such an engaged fanbase could be so blind to what was right in front of them. 

Quote

YG was entirely cut, but JAQEN WAS NOT. Jaqen even re-appears in Braavos, but we don't get any of the Alchemist or Pate because D&D didn't deem the Oldtown plot to be that important. 

D&D cut out the three heads of the dragon, so things relating to it (the dragon egg at the citadel, the Valonqar, YG, Dorne, Ashara Dayne (whom GRRM has hinted is alive) were all cut as well. 

Jaqen was turned into the kindly man, and Jon was turned into Aegon. 

Notice also, the imagery of Arya was changed, as well as fArya. 

Quote

 

Most notably, murder. 

Who? Why? When? Where? 

And do all killers get sent to the black cells (because if any old murder is worthy of that the black cells wouldn't be empty half the time). 

Quote

No, it's not. He could just quit if he decides he doesn't like it! The Waif has an explanation for why she's there: in repayment for the FM killing her wicked stepmother. Why would Jaqen feel any such obligation under your theory? 

He is given as tribute, and he doesn't know his past. He may have even been given in return for a contract. 

Once you become no one, you don't just go back to figuring out who you really are. 

The Waif's story is filled with lies and truth (notice the game she is playing with Arya. First it was 2/3 truth, then Arya asked if it was all lies. The answer is somewhere in between). 

Quote

YOU still don't know about the Waif. There's no evidence for your theory about her. 

I do know who the Waif is. I even explained it on this site once. 

You see, Ashara Dayne is alive, GRRM has all but been saying that every time she is brought up. 

Ashara Dayne is NOT septa Lemore. Lemore is too old, and being so would mean YG is the real Aegon (which he is absolutely not, he is the mummers dragon). 

No other character fits, but the Waif. 

Remember how Ashara had an adversarial relationship with Lyanna. Ashara was Elia's champion, and she saw Lyanna as competition to her lady (Elia) and Rhaegar. 

The Waif is reminded of Lyanna by Arya which is why she treats her poorly. But Ashara is also making up for her sins, she is very humble. 

She is around 36 which is the exact age Ashara should be, and as Ashara was described as ethereal and almost dead, the Waif is the manifestation of that ideal. 

It is sad and heart breaking, but it is what GRRM does. 

Now I could explain how her backstory matches up (like I did in a different thread). But if you don't want to hear it, then you will just have to trust me.  

Quote

To ILLYRIO there is an important connection between those things & YG: those are connected to his most recent memories of YG. YG himself and his companions don't have the same perspective, because he's grown up amongst them and they think of him as the young man he is now rather than the child from years ago. There really would be no point of Illyrio sending things to YG if they were never connected to him in the first place but instead to Jaqen! 

Lemore or Connington would tell him. Would Ilyrio send this memories just to be destroyed? Was that his plan then? 

He says the boy likes Ginger, but YG never touches it. He sends the baby cloth, but Lemore (the mother) destroys are child's own clothes. 

Do you see the discrepancy now? 

(Jaqen does like ginger however). 

Quote

Illyrio didn't plan for that, Lemore decided to do that. And it made sense from her POV. 

To take her own son's cloths and destroy them for a crude motely? Since when was that needed or required. 

 

And if that was the plan, why send the baby cloths at all? 

Quote

Because he associates them with YG, not Jaqen! 

No, because YG doesn't associate with them. 

If they were his five year old cloths, he would remember. And he would remember liking Ginger. 

Quote

That chest is described as "packed with a child's clothing" and Lemore is said to have "slit <b>each</b> garment apart". I don't see a reference to any spare clothes that could be in grownup YG's size. 

There are plenty of other cloths along with that. And Ilyrio didn't need to send YG's things to be destroyed. Because he didn't know they would be discarded. 

Quote

Cutting things in half and stitching halves back together is simpler than resizing, and can be done "crudely". Even Tyrion was able to contribute, and he's no tailor. Taking a collection of children's clothes and turning them into something a young adult can wear would be a much different task, particularly as YG is not being presented as a jester. 

Tyrion is not Septa Lemore. Lemore is responsible for the crude motely, despite having all the time in the world in good weather.  

 

She is Serra, YG mother. She would not destroy her own son's child clothes. And YG would remember it from when he was five. 

Quote

Like I said, I don't think Illyrio thought that far out. Tyrion was not part of his plan, Varys simply sent Tyrion to him after things went down in KL. 

Then why send YG's things if they are just to be discarded?

Quote

WHY!? If they have nothing to do with YG, there is no reason at all to send them! If he wants to get rid of them, he can simply throw them in the street at any time. 

They are for his son, the wrong son. 

He has memories of them, just like YG is taking up the role of Aegon. 

It is why he is "oddly sad". 

Ilyrio is an interesting character, as are the poisoned mushrooms. There is a lot of hints and clues in his manor actually. 

Quote

What's bad about it? What has been lost? Is there a child who could really use those clothes? 

His personally belongings turned into a crude motely. 

Quote

No, she's not. Biter is not a dragon and Arya didn't tame him. 

Wow wow wow. 

Biter is not a dragon. 

But I have already derived the parallels between the fire at the gods eye and the burning of KL. 

 

Now, there is an immense white lizard, fighting against his chains, hissing, that Arya is trying to calm. 

In the context of drogon attacking the city, I think you can see.

Quote

You don't know that. 

We'll have to wait and find out. 

Though because she is the third head of the dragon (which is Clear and Obvious, as I have proven), it is certainly plausible. 

Quote

You haven't "demonstrated" anything. You just keep asserting things. 

I have, especially in this regard. 

I have demonstrated the fire in the gods eye being a metaphor for the dragon attack on KL (as portrayed in the show). 

I have provided evidence, and I thought you agreed, but now you say it was not demonstrated. 

But it was, it was. 

  

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

The dragon tamer chapter does not depict the burning of KL! 

Right, it depicts Viserion. Who will also be there. 

Quote

Who says he must represent anything other than himself? 

No one. 

Quote

Why is one dragon supposed to be represented by Biter and another by smoke? Those two "representations" have nothing in common other than the lack of a full tongue (even though dragons do have tongues). And what about the third dragon? 

Wait, these aren't "repersent" like Pate and the Swineherd prince. 

Biter is Biter, and the smoke is from the fire. 

But in these moments, the descriptions are used to explain the challenges Arya will face come the dance with dragons (and there will be a dance with dragons, we know that).  

As for the third dragon... 

Perhaps he is there, perhaps not. There was no dance with dragons on the show, but there will be one in the books. 

But that is unimportant, because these descriptions are about the trials Arya will face, no anyone else. 

Quote

Commons sense is, by definition, COMMON. And nobody but you believes in this theory! You haven't "established" anything. 

I have. 

As for common, think of it like this: 

It is common to relate Lyanna and Rhaegar to Harrenhall (the love-struck prince according to GRRM). 

It is common to relate Arya to Lyanna. And see her be pledged to under the heart tree in Harrenhall is a common relationship. 

As is the red dragon bloom while she sleeps under her father's cloak. 

The prince who was promised (I have promises to keep), the pisswater prince, the mummers dragon, these are all clear and obvious. 

Once you see it, the Valonqar, Ashara Dayne, the tourney, the baby swap, it all makes sense. 

It is all part of the story being told. 

As I have demonstrated. 

PS: Also notice their is a fArya and fAegon. 

Those two, YG and Jeyne, will have the worse end of the story sadly. 

Quote

How does being the former exclude being the latter? 

Because YOUR Valonqar was already established. 

In the previous Cersei chapter, a Tyroshi brings a head to the queen: 

“I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar.” 

He continues: "“In Tyrosh we name him Redhands, for the blood running from his fingers" 

Cersei says this is nonsense. In the bloody hand, Tyrion is said to be the killer, but it is actually the stranger, the alchemist, the Valonqar, Aegon VI. 

Red hand is for vengeance, he is the vengeance of his family. The red hand is also mentioned in the Waif's backstory. 

So you see, "your Valonqar" was already used, as it is the proper term. 

But Maggy says "the Valonqar". 

If it was Jaime or Tyrion, she would say it like the Tyroshi. 

Quote

WHO remembers him as the brother of anyone rather than the son of Rhaegar? In contrast, people do think of Jaime & Tyrion as the Queen's brothers. 

He was a baby, while Rhaenys could walk and speak. He was always remembered as the younger one. 

But the key word is "little". He was little when he died, and that is how people remember him. He did not 'live' long enough to change that perception. 

Take Jaehaerys I. 

During his junior reign, he was known as the boy king. If he died young, that is what he would be remembered as. 

But he lived under a very old age, and now everyone calls him "the old king". 

No one (seriously) remembers him as the "boy king" all these years later, because that is not who he was when he died. 

Quote

But under your theory, Aegon is Jaqen, who DID live long enough! Cersei can't very well be strangled by somebody who died young. 

Ahh, but people believe he is dead, he is the dead king. 

When he returns that is what people will think, the dead boy come back to seek vengeance. 

Death is a part of his story as much as it is Jon's. 

The two sons of Rhaegar. 

Aegon supposedly died in the Red keep. 

Jon supposedly died in castle Black.  

Red and Black, those are the colors of their father's house.

Quote

Her family did, but NOT Cersei herself. And of the people responsible, Tywin was killed by Tyrion, Amory by Vargo Hoat, and Gregor seems to be undead. If Cersei is to be blamed for anything, it's cheating on her obligations to the Martells regarding Gregor. 

Cersei sits on the throne her family paid for with blood. The red hand will avenge his family. 

Quote

Gregor is notorious for the deaths in his family (and Sandor's injury) along with the fate of many of his servants and wives. He lashes out very easily. 

If he so cared, but yes, that is a reason not to ask him (though with Tywin I am suspect). 

Regardless, in a book this is called a literary device. It could be a red herring, but it is mentioned because the author wants us to observe it (true or not). 

Quote

Oberyn did, and Gregor admitted it during the trial by combat! Since everyone knows there was a child of Aegon's age with a smashed head, and Tywin has admitted to sending Gregor into the Red Keep where the children & Elia were, I don't know why you bother to argue about this point. 

Gregor (as you yourself said) claims to have killed BOTH her children. He says it in a rage, while he is being poisoned. 

If that is your first confession for the first time, filled with a mistruth, it puts the entire claim into question.   

 

Quote

You're not a character in this fictional world, you don't get to grant any titles actually referenced in it. 

The Valonqar, for the sake of the prophecy, is a title. 

Just like the prince who was promised or Azor Ahai. 

The reason I call it this is because it is written for us (the readers) to figure out who this title belongs to. 

Quote

That's two words. 

Why would she translate those two words? 

Why not any other? The whole thing is said in the common tongue, except for those two words, and phonetically Valonqar is not shorter. 

There are other words, nouns with adjectives, that she could say in Valyrian, but she only chooses this. 

I think my point should be clear and obvious by now. 

Quote

Yup, that works perfectly well. Although it's not a line she actually said, instead there are separate lines in response to different questions and no indication that the subjects of the different responses are related to each other. 

This is how she speaks.

Queen you shall be, until there comes another younger and more beautiful to cast you down and take all you hold dear. 

The next words "and when" suggest her tears will arise from what this person does. 

And when your tears have drowned you, the Valonqar shall... (etc.). 

There is no introduction to this "new" subject. 

It is mentioned after a comma. It is a continuation of the previous subject, not a new one.  

In truth, it does not work perfectly well at all, it requires a suspension of disbelief, they the actions of one will be finished by another, introduced in the latter part of that same sentence. 

 

Quote

Rickon was in the show for the first three seasons, which was also the time during which he has appeared so far in the books. 

They did nothing with Rickon in those first three seasons, he may as well have no been there. George told them to keep him in because he had plans, but those plans never manifested themselves in the show. 

Quote

They already ticked a lot of people off with the sept scene where Cersei's verbal indications of consent were left out. To then have her rapist strangle her would be a lot on top of that. Particularly since fan-favorite Brienne is still supposed to sympathize with him. As it is, the show still had her die with Jaime's had literally around her neck. 

The media already believe Jaime was the Valonqar anyways: 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-cersei-jaime-die-valonqar-prophecy-twist 

 

They had the scene, but they cut the Valonqar. Because the Valonqar was cut from the show, Aegon VI. 

It is the same reason YG was cut from the show. 

Quote

Your valonqar is a valonqar, why can't that valonqar be the valonqar?

Tysha didn't mean much on the show but was still included.

  Tysha was added in the first season only. 

Why would it be "a valonqar" when it is called "the" valonqar. 

You cannot make up a scenario that does not exist anywhere in the books.  

If a valonqar was used, sure. But it wasn't. There is a reason "your Valonqar" was added in the books, and "a valonqar" was not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'm talking about the word use for matted.

But "matted" is not the same as "mat". In Jaqen's case, his hair might not naturally be like that, but something happened (he got dirty for an extended period of time) that caused it to get matted. For Alleras, his hair is naturally described as a mat even if he's bathed recently.

Quote

Notice cider and beer are both fermented alcohol.

No duh, there are a LOT of references to alcohol.

Quote

Both are different versions of the same position (Alleras won his chain and is drinking cider, Jaqen is forced into his chain and wants beer).

That's not the same position at all! Jaqen would greatly prefer to be in Alleras' position of having alcohol rather than wanting it, for one thing.

Quote

Aegon VI is half dornish.

Jaqen being Aegon VI is what you are trying to prove, you can't assume that as evidence for your argument with that conclusion!

Quote

 

 I am comparing Rorge to Alleras' MOTHER.

Both are described like apes from the summer isles. Both are related to Jaqen/Alleras.

 

Leo has never seen Alleras' mother, he doesn't know what she actually looks like, he's just coming up with insults.

Quote

It doesn't matter if he is or not, because he isn't Jaqen.

It matters because of the things he has in common with Jaqen. If Jaqen has trait X and you say that trait implies Y about Jaqen, and Rorge has the same trait, shouldn't that also imply Y about Rorge?

Quote

Rorge takes the identity of the hound, that relates them back to the bloody mummers

And Lem Lemoncloak takes it after Rorge, without being a Bloody Mummer.

Quote

he is ice and fire, his targaryen and dornish

That is again the very thing you are trying to prove, you can't use that as evidence for your argument which is supposed to prove it.

Quote

I know he has read it

You don't know that, and you certainly don't know what GRRM even remembers from college.

Quote

For Arya? No.

It's a secret up until the end of Clash when he discards his identity.

Quote

But it did happen, do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree about Lemore being Serra.

Quote

The proof is that it's in the text.

The so-called "Bible codes" were also "in the text" in that people could find them there, but it was just imagining patterns.

Quote

That is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

You wouldn't know what "reasonable doubt" was if it slapped you across the face. No jury would convict Jaqen of being Aegon VI.

Quote

https://first-of-her-nxme.tumblr.com/post/184501320486/hey-it-was-a-nice-experience-going-through-your#:~:text=Jaqen is as Arry - a,or Vhagar%2C a dragon name. 

Congratulations, you found one other person on the entire internet for your supposedly "obvious" theory. The Quora link didn't load when I tried that one.

Quote

What I find more interesting is, despite how immensely obvious it is, how few people seem to see it.

Because it's not obvious at all. Obvious things are commonly noticed.

Quote

Who? Why? When? Where?

He commits multiple murders for Arya alone, plus as an FM it's his job. We don't know what specifically Rorge & Biter did to get there either, but from what we do see of them it's not that surprising.

Quote

And do all killers get sent to the black cells (because if any old murder is worthy of that the black cells wouldn't be empty half the time).

We don't know the precise reasons he, Rorge, or Biter were sent there. The common factor seems to be that other people find them scary.

Quote

He is given as tribute, and he doesn't know his past. He may have even been given in return for a contract.

Slavery isn't legal in Bravos, he would have to willingly go through with the whole thing. And unlike the Waif, he wouldn't have any personal reason to feel like he owes anything to the HoBaW.

Quote

Once you become no one

How can they be sure that will happen to Jaqen rather than him just deciding he doesn't feel like it?

Quote

The Waif's story is filled with lies and truth (notice the game she is playing with Arya. First it was 2/3 truth, then Arya asked if it was all lies. The answer is somewhere in between).

Yet you are basing your theory of her identity on the age she claims to be despite her not looking that age!

Quote

I do know who the Waif is. I even explained it on this site once.

Your "explanation" was woefully lacking in evidence. You only think you know.

Quote

You see, Ashara Dayne is alive, GRRM has all but been saying that every time she is brought up.

As far as I know, there is just one instance where he says anything related to that. An SSM asked if her body was found after she jumped, and he said no... but we wouldn't necessarily expect her body to be found.

Quote

Ashara Dayne is NOT septa Lemore. Lemore is too old

Based on Tyrion's estimate of her age rather than anything definitive?

Quote

and being so would mean YG is the real Aegon

Griff is really Jon Connington. Why would Ashara but not JonCon be proof of "realness"?

Quote

which he is absolutely not, he is the mummers dragon

Varys is a mummer. If Varys took young Aegon from KL to be raised by his accomplice in Pentos for his own scheme (something you believe actually happened up until Illyrio had a kid later), that Aegon would then be "the mummer's dragon".

Quote

No other character fits, but the Waif.

How does she "fit"? And how do you know that if she is alive she's been revealed rather than waiting in the wings (Howland Reed still hasn't appeared, and coincidentally there's a popular theory his wife is Ashara).

Quote

Remember how Ashara had an adversarial relationship with Lyanna

I don't "remember" any such thing because it's nowhere in the text! You just made it up!

Quote

Ashara was Elia's champion

Handmaid, not champion.

Quote

and she saw Lyanna as competition to her lady (Elia) and Rhaegar

This is again something you made up which is nowhere in the text.

Quote

She is around 36

So she claims, even though earlier you were saying she's unreliable.

Quote

as Ashara was described as ethereal and almost dead

Who described her that way and when?

Quote

But if you don't want to hear it, then you will just have to trust me.

Why would I trust you when you have been wrong so often?

Quote

Lemore or Connington would tell him.

He didn't actually get to meet them when he handed over the trunk to Duck.

Quote

Would Ilyrio send this memories just to be destroyed? Was that his plan then?

He doesn't know what's going to happen to those things.

Quote

He says the boy likes Ginger, but YG never touches it

He liked it as a boy (which is why Illyrio sends it), but he's not a little boy anymore. Sending it to someone never known to have liked it in the first place because someone else liked it would make no sense.

Quote

He sends the baby cloth, but Lemore (the mother) destroys are child's own clothes.

I disagree that Lemore is the mother, or that a mother wouldn't get rid of a child's clothes many years after said child has grown out of them.

Quote

To take her own son's cloths and destroy them for a crude motely? Since when was that needed or required.

I disagree that YG is her son, and at any rate he's too big for those clothes! He can't wear them, so she's re-using them for someone smaller who can... which people have been doing for as long as children's clothes have existed.

Quote

And if that was the plan, why send the baby cloths at all?

It wasn't any plan, it was just Lemore making practical use of what she had for the unexpected addition of Tyrion to the group.

Quote

No, because YG doesn't associate with them.

ILLYRIO associates those things with him because ILLYRIO'S last memories of YG are with those things. YG himself has been growing up all this time, he does not have the same mental associations.

Quote

If they were his five year old cloths, he would remember.

I wouldn't remember my clothes from that age!

Quote

There are plenty of other cloths along with that.

What "other cloths"? I just quoted the section where it said she split EACH garment.

Quote

Tyrion is not Septa Lemore. Lemore is responsible for the crude motely, despite having all the time in the world in good weather.

The point is not holding someone "responsible" like there's any moral valence. I'm pointing out that splitting things apart and stitching them back together is simple enough for Tyrion to do (as YG requested). Tyrion would not be able to convert those child-sized clothes into something YG could wear.

Quote

And YG would remember it from when he was five.

I wouldn't remember mine.

Quote

Then why send YG's things if they are just to be discarded?

Illyrio doesn't know what's going to be done with those things. Those are just the last things he has from YG, and it's not like he was going to use those clothes on some other kid.

Quote

They are for his son, the wrong son.

Why send them to the WRONG person!?

Quote

His personally belongings turned into a crude motely.

YG hasn't used those since he was 5 and can no longer fit in them!

Quote

But I have already derived the parallels between the fire at the gods eye and the burning of KL.

The burning of KL hasn't even happened yet. Just like with your imagined conversation between Elia & Rhaegar you can't "derive parallels" by just making up one of the two sides!

Quote

I have demonstrated the fire in the gods eye being a metaphor for the dragon attack on KL (as portrayed in the show).

In the show there was only one dragon when KL got burned, whereas you are claiming there will be two.

Quote

I thought you agreed, but now you say it was not demonstrated.

You thought wrong, as you so often do. I was pointing out holes in your logic, not accepting your interpretation.

Quote

No one.

You are the one who asked "And who is Biter representing?". I deny that he must represent anything other than himself.

Quote

And see her be pledged to under the heart tree in Harrenhall is a common relationship.

I haven't seen that very commonly. Nor your red dragon blooms. Your theory is still a fringe crackpot one rather than a common one, so you haven't demonstrated anything.

Quote

Because YOUR Valonqar was already established.

Not by Maggie.

Quote

 

 So you see, "your Valonqar" was already used, as it is the proper term.

But Maggy says "the Valonqar". 

 

Maggie doesn't speak like that guy generally. She's speaking cryptically & prophetically rather than conversationally, and she's not handing over a severed head to Cersei.

Quote

He was little when he died, and that is how people remember him

But if Maggie is saying he's going to kill Cersei, he can't be little anymore! Unless his skeleton is getting re-animated or something.

Quote

But he lived under a very old age, and now everyone calls him "the old king".

"The old king" can also mean "the previous king" as opposed to "the new king". He is not currently an old man on the throne.

Quote

Ahh, but people believe he is dead, he is the dead king.

Maggie didn't say anything about a dead king strangling Cersei, but instead a little brother. And Aegon hasn't been anyone's brother since the sack.

Quote

Jon supposedly died in castle Black.

Are you now arguing he didn't? I know people think he warged into Ghost (like Robb did into Grey Wind) and will come back, but are you saying he's merely wounded but alive?

Quote

Cersei sits on the throne her family paid for with blood. The red hand will avenge his family.

Collective responsibility extending over families is an existing concept in that world (that's why there's a tradition of taking hostages), but it's not usually expressed by strangling the person related to the person who wronged you.

Quote

Regardless, in a book this is called a literary device. It could be a red herring, but it is mentioned because the author wants us to observe it (true or not).

I don't understand why you are arguing this point at all. Two dead children were recovered from the Red Keep. Tywin has admitted he sent Amory & Gregor to kill them, with Tywin giving Amory's report on his own actions and Gregor confessing to raping Elia and killing her with her "whelp". What else could be the case and when could that ever be revealed?

Quote

Gregor (as you yourself said) claims to have killed BOTH her children

NO! He said "I killed her screaming whelp", in the singular, not the plural "whelps".

Quote

If that is your first confession for the first time, filled with a mistruth, it puts the entire claim into question.

You claiming a mistruth where there was none puts your reading comprehension into question.

Quote

The Valonqar, for the sake of the prophecy, is a title.

No, it's not written with a capital 'V' like a title, but a lowercase 'v' like an ordinary word.

Quote

Why would she translate those two words?

One word is shorter than two.

Quote

Why not any other?

In what other cases could she replace multiple words with a single Valyrian one?

Quote

phonetically Valonqar is not shorter

Three syllables for "valonqar" vs four for "little brother", so it is shorter in terms of both words & syllables.

Quote

 

 Queen you shall be, until there comes another younger and more beautiful to cast you down and take all you hold dear.

The next words "and when"

 

But her next words AREN'T "and when". Instead she says "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you" in response to Cersei's question about children, following it up with "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds" before Cersei can respond. She's responding to a completely different question (about children rather than Cersei being queen) by the time she brings up any valonqar.

Quote

 It is mentioned after a comma. It is a continuation of the previous subject, not a new one.

There's not "a comma" in between those two sections, but an entirely new question from Cersei and multiple clauses from Maggie.

Quote

In truth, it does not work perfectly well at all, it requires a suspension of disbelief, they the actions of one will be finished by another, introduced in the latter part of that same sentence.

IT'S NOT THE SAME SENTENCE, LEARN TO READ!

Quote

Why would it be "a valonqar" when it is called "the" valonqar.

Every "the" is also an "a". The president is a president, the king is a king, the sultan of swat is a sultan of swat.

Quote

There is a reason "your Valonqar" was added in the books, and "a valonqar" was not.

The person handing over the head is claiming it is a specific head that Cersei wanted. In fact, he is wrong, because it is the wrong head. If he'd just said it's "a valonqar", that wouldn't mean much, because there are many little brothers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/18/2020 at 7:46 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

But "matted" is not the same as "mat". In Jaqen's case, his hair might not naturally be like that, but something happened (he got dirty for an extended period of time) that caused it to get matted. For Alleras, his hair is naturally described as a mat even if he's bathed recently. 

*Everything I wrote was deleted so this response will be much shorter. 

In this case my friend, the word use is what matters. There situations are reversed. Alleras is in chains as celebration, Jaqen is in chains as imprisonment. Alleras' cup is full, Jaqen's cup is empty. His hair is matted from being unwashed, Alleras' hair is matted from bathing. 

They are in opposite but parallel situations. 

They are both the sphinx, of a different kind. But for now notice the word choice, that is what matters.

Quote

No duh, there are a LOT of references to alcohol. 

There are three types of alcohol: 

Liquor, Wine, and Beer.  

Cider is part of the third class, just like the Beer Jaqen wants to drink. 

Quote

That's not the same position at all! Jaqen would greatly prefer to be in Alleras' position of having alcohol rather than wanting it, for one thing. 

They are reversed, opposites, but parallel. Think of them like mirror images of each other. Both are sphinxes. Notice when Sam first enters the citadel, there are two sphinxes, a male and a female. 

Alleras is the female Sphinx, and Aegon is the male Sphinx.  

"The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man’s face, one a woman’s

Quote

Jaqen being Aegon VI is what you are trying to prove, you can't assume that as evidence for your argument with that conclusion! 

Not always true. If the answer bellies the question, then it establishes possibilities. 

In this case, there are two sphinxes, both at the citadel. The one Aemon spoke about is the riddle, not the riddler. 

The riddle, the mystery head of the trios, Aegon VI. 

Quote

Leo has never seen Alleras' mother, he doesn't know what she actually looks like, he's just coming up with insults. 

What Leo knows or doesn't know is of no consequence, the point is the language used. 

Jaqen is tied to a "monkey from the summer isles" and Alleras is tied to an "ape from the summer isles". 

One is present, one is imagined, but they are used to signify a parallel. The two sphinxes at the citadel. Outside there were two Sphinxes. Aegon has two hair colors, and is of mixed blood, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. He is the riddle. 

Quote

It matters because of the things he has in common with Jaqen. If Jaqen has trait X and you say that trait implies Y about Jaqen, and Rorge has the same trait, shouldn't that also imply Y about Rorge? 

The Bloody Mummers are a literary device used to signify Jaqen's false identity. 

Rorge takes up the identity of the hound, and Biter is a made up name. But more to the point, it matters for only one of the characters, for he is the person for which trait Y is trying to be proven. 

Others involved manifest for different purposes. 

Quote

And Lem Lemoncloak takes it after Rorge, without being a Bloody Mummer. 

If A does C, and B does C, that doesn't mean that A is B.  

People can do things outside of a set perameter. 

Quote

That is again the very thing you are trying to prove, you can't use that as evidence for your argument which is supposed to prove it. 

But again, if something tell us the truth, as has been well established, then we must find conclusions of worth. 

There are two Sphinxes in the citadel, a man and a female. Alleras is the female, and Aegon is the male. 

We know one of the Sphinxes has a dragon egg (as I have established). 

We know one of the Sphinxes is the swineherd prince and was previously Strider, both secret princes. 

Quote

You don't know that, and you certainly don't know what GRRM even remembers from college. 

Arthurian legend is the basis for modern fantasy. 

Arthurian legend starts with Ambrose. 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/King-Arthur  

Quote

It's a secret up until the end of Clash when he discards his identity. 

If the face is real, then the man is real, only his identity can be false. 

The face has a true identity, but it is hidden behind a false one. That is the secret, otherwise there would be no bloody mummers. The facelessmen are not mummers. 

This face is his real one, but if not it would have to be another real person. But the identity of Jaqen is fake, that is the secret.  

Arya knows this person, whether the face was his or another. 

Quote

Yes, I disagree about Lemore being Serra. 

Curious, very curious. Do you agree Serra is YG's mother?

Quote

The so-called "Bible codes" were also "in the text" in that people could find them there, but it was just imagining patterns. 

Let us speak about imagined patterns. 

An imagined pattern is Dany and Jon engaging as a couple. Even before the show, people said Jon and Dany would very well marry or else romantically engage. 

Many believed this imagined pattern, for none of it was real. 

Jon prefers women like: Arya, Ygritte, and Val. 

They are rough and tumble, not feminine princesses like Sansa or Myrcella. 

Dany prefers colorful rogues like Drogo, Daario, and Euron. 

Neither of them appeal to each other, yet this is what patterns people made.  

Now there is a love Dany must engage with. In the house of the undying each prophecy spoke of love at the end. She would mount someone for love, set a fire to love, and a treason for love. 

That is a message, that there will be a lover at the end. In the show Jon became Aegon. 

But who is someone with colorful hair, a charming rogue who makes women swoon? 

The mystery head of the trios, Aegon VI. That was the story GRRM was going to tell originally. The love triangle with Jon, Arya, and Tyrion. 

Jon was suppose to be a Targaryen, and Arya a parallel to Lyanna, but things change. 

Now Tyrion will lust after Dany (as suggested by the show), Dany will want Aegon VI, and Aegon will want Arya. 

In the end he will choose Arya over Dany, and that will make Dany go mad. 

They took a simple case and turned it into a wild goose chase, and soon the killer fell of the list of suspects. That is real life, that is imagined patterns. 

But in the text we deal with: 

1. We know Arya is the third head of the dragon, the devourer 

2. When Know Jon is the reborn head, Azor Ahai reborn (Mel was looking for Stannis but could only find Snow).  

3. We know Arya is shown to be married under a heart tree. First when she comes out of her father's cloak, then when she is pledged to by Jaqen under the heart tree in Harrenhall, and the third time is when fArya is married under the heart tree in Winterfell. 

Jon was suppose to be the dragon, until the story of Aegon and Young Griff later. The pisswater prince. 

There is now a fArya and a fAegon. 

There is the real Arya and the real Aegon. 

The former two will take the worse fates sadly, but the latter two will be joined together under the old gods.  

These are truths from the text, plain and simple, yet many people decide to find patterns elsewhere, just like in real life. Despite the answer being so close at hand. 

 

Quote

You wouldn't know what "reasonable doubt" was if it slapped you across the face. No jury would convict Jaqen of being Aegon VI. 

Oh, but it is beyond a reasonable doubt. 

The swineherd, the pisswater prince, the red hand (mentioned in the waif's backstory). It is all there for you to see. 

Quote

Congratulations, you found one other person on the entire internet for your supposedly "obvious" theory. The Quora link didn't load when I tried that one. 

Two, and notice the wording in the first length. 

The theory has been around since 1999, when ACOK first came out. Things became lost and confused later, but the truth remained. 

Quote

Because it's not obvious at all. Obvious things are commonly noticed. 

Again, speaking of commonly noticed, the killer in the case of Jack the Ripper was commonly noticed, until it wasn't. 

Scotland Yard knew who the killer was. He showed up in the first crime scene, but lucked out, he was there during the second murder as well. Scotland Yard was going to bring him in for question, but then the media got wind of the case, and a whole circus of suspects came in tell the officials they knew who the murderer was.  

Soon the killer fell out of notice, despite him being obvious. 

Quote

He commits multiple murders for Arya alone, plus as an FM it's his job. We don't know what specifically Rorge & Biter did to get there either, but from what we do see of them it's not that surprising. 

He murders on command (supposedly). In the case above it was the names given to him by Arya, and then the break out (again commanded by her). That is all we are shown of his killing motives. A crime needs intent, not just capabilities. 

Quote

 

Slavery isn't legal in Bravos, he would have to willingly go through with the whole thing. And unlike the Waif, he wouldn't have any personal reason to feel like he owes anything to the HoBaW. 

The truth is what one believes it to be. If Aegon is told he is no one, then that is his life, until he finds out otherwise. 

The Waif is not acting because she owes anything to the HoBaW, she is their as penance, she is there as punishment for her sins. 

Quote

How can they be sure that will happen to Jaqen rather than him just deciding he doesn't feel like it? 

He does leave eventually, but only once he learns who he truly is. Otherwise the truth is what he is told and nothing more. Once you becoming something, that is who you are. Until new information arises. 

Quote

Yet you are basing your theory of her identity on the age she claims to be despite her not looking that age! 

?? That is not the base of the idea, only supporting evidence. She is 36, what she looks like after being posioned is of no consequence, the kindly man corroborates that information.   

Quote

Your "explanation" was woefully lacking in evidence. You only think you know. 

In the case of the Waif, I do not believe you have read the evidence, I could present it to you if you wish. But regardless all else has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt through innumerable evidence. 

Quote

As far as I know, there is just one instance where he says anything related to that. An SSM asked if her body was found after she jumped, and he said no... but we wouldn't necessarily expect her body to be found. 

Ashara Dayne is alive, that is why she is so central to the story. Not Arthur Dayne, but Ashara. The House of Black and White is where one goes for assisted suicide, and that is where she went after surviving the fall. 

Her own son was brutally killed, and she jumped for guilt, from a broken heart.  

Quote

Based on Tyrion's estimate of her age rather than anything definitive? 

You think that number is random or made up? George puts it there for a reason, for descriptive reasons as well. 

Quote

Griff is really Jon Connington. Why would Ashara but not JonCon be proof of "realness"? 

Connington was exiled, Ashara however gave her baby to the prince, and heard of the baby's death. She was involved, he was not. It was only later that Varys looped him in, at the time he serviced the golden company. 

Quote

Varys is a mummer. If Varys took young Aegon from KL to be raised by his accomplice in Pentos for his own scheme (something you believe actually happened up until Illyrio had a kid later), that Aegon would then be "the mummer's dragon". 

True, but we know YG is a fake. He is the arbor gold, not the pisswater prince. This is established clearly. 

Quote

How does she "fit"? And how do you know that if she is alive she's been revealed rather than waiting in the wings (Howland Reed still hasn't appeared, and coincidentally there's a popular theory his wife is Ashara). 

She has a broken heart is paying for her sin and grief, she would not be full of energy like Lyanna or Septa Lemore. 

Her beauty is ethereal, and now she pays for her sin in the house of black and white, a shadow of her former self. The HOBAW is where one goes to commit suicide, but she did not die. 

I think Ned or Brandon was her lover, but it certainly could have been Howland Reed. 

Quote

I don't "remember" any such thing because it's nowhere in the text! You just made it up! 

Lyanna posed a threat to Elia, and Elia was meek, Ashara was her champion. She fought for her cause. Also, read AWOIAF

Quote

Handmaid, not champion. 

Champion, yes. Elia was too meek to fight her own battles, so Ashara took up her cause. 

Quote

This is again something you made up which is nowhere in the text. 

Here is Selmy: "If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that" 

Not Brandon, he wished to unhorse Rhaegar so that he wouldn't be able to crown Lyanna and start a war. 

So you see, in the context of Barristan's thinking, he was not saying that if only I had unhorsed Rhaegar, Ashara would love me, he was saying if only I had unhorsed Rhaegar, Ashara would not look to Lyanna as a threat. There would be no war (or so he thinks). 

She was the one who tried to split Lyanna from Rhaegar, and now all these years later she faces the mirror image of Lyanna in Arya, a memory of all her failures. 

Quote

So she claims, even though earlier you were saying she's unreliable. 

In that case she was playing a game of truth and lie, I never said she was unreliable. 

Also the age was corroborated by the kindly man. 

Quote

Who described her that way and when? 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashara_Dayne 

"Ashara was a young, beautiful, tall and fair maiden, with haunting violet eyes.[4][5] 

Quote

Why would I trust you when you have been wrong so often? 

In the case of the Waif I have not told you yet, but with everything else, there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 

But if you want to understand the Waif's backstory, the narrative shifts between Ashara and Aegon. 

Quote

He didn't actually get to meet them when he handed over the trunk to Duck. 

Yes, because Connington and Lemore have different plans than him. 

Ilyrio is not that in control, he did not wish the company to sail west, nor did he send YG baby cloths just for Septa Lemore to destroy them. Their plans differed from his. 

Quote

He doesn't know what's going to happen to those things. 

He doesn't of course. Or else why send baby cloths from your son many miles away just to be destroyed for a crude motely. 

YG could recognize his own cloths. His mother would definitely recognize them. But neither say anything nor give it any mention, same as with the ginger. Ilyrio did not plan that.  

Quote

He liked it as a boy (which is why Illyrio sends it), but he's not a little boy anymore. Sending it to someone never known to have liked it in the first place because someone else liked it would make no sense. 

YG left the mansion very early, Ilyrio barely knew his true like. 

But he knew Aegon, the pisswater prince. He lived there longer, and Ilyrio knew his likes, and had his cloths. The same could not be said for his true son (YG). 

If you want more proof the baby swap did happen, look at the armor Tyrion finds at the manse. 

In ACOK Dany compares Ilyrio's manse to a SWINEHERD Hovel.  

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Illyrio's_manse

"She thinks Xaro's palace makes Illyrio's manse look like a swineherd's hovel

Aegon is the swineherd prince, the hidden prince, the manse was his hovel, he lived there the longest. This is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 

Quote

I disagree that Lemore is the mother, or that a mother wouldn't get rid of a child's clothes many years after said child has grown out of them. 

But a mother would. This before the time you would buy cloths for cheap at Nordstrom rack. 

Think of it like this, if your granny knitted you a sweater, would that just be used for bare thread, with no mention of it's value?

Quote

I disagree that YG is her son, and at any rate he's too big for those clothes! He can't wear them, so she's re-using them for someone smaller who can... which people have been doing for as long as children's clothes have existed. 

I use to have this shark t-shirt when I was five. I don't have it anymore, but if I saw it I would recognize it. And a mother would not trash the clothes to make a crude motely with barely a mention. 

Quote

It wasn't any plan, it was just Lemore making practical use of what she had for the unexpected addition of Tyrion to the group. 

Practical use. Again, if you had a sweater knitted by your grandmother, would it just be used for practical means? 

There were other chests with more cloths, any could be used. Why would Ilyrio send these clothes half way across the world just to be torn up into a crude motley when any old clothes could be used. 

If he didn't know the plan, then they weren't meant for that practical usage. 

Quote

ILLYRIO associates those things with him because ILLYRIO'S last memories of YG are with those things. YG himself has been growing up all this time, he does not have the same mental associations. 

At five he would, but more importantly YG was sent away at a young age, it was the pisswater prince who lived with him for most of this time. That child he knew well, not his own. The ginger and the clothes are not even given mention by Lemore or YG, but that is why they were sent. 

Quote

I wouldn't remember my clothes from that age! 

Your mother certainly would. But that is what they were sent over across the world, he did not keep them this long just to be trashed for crude motely (a plan he wasn't even aware of).

Quote

What "other cloths"? I just quoted the section where it said she split EACH garment. 

There were other chests with more clothes. 

Quote

The point is not holding someone "responsible" like there's any moral valence. I'm pointing out that splitting things apart and stitching them back together is simple enough for Tyrion to do (as YG requested). Tyrion would not be able to convert those child-sized clothes into something YG could wear. 

And yet no one mentions whose clothes those are? If you rip up any old cloths, you can divide them however you want. Ilyrio did not send them over for practical usage, no more than he sent over the ginger. 

It is why he was oddly sad.  

Quote

 

The burning of KL hasn't even happened yet. Just like with your imagined conversation between Elia & Rhaegar you can't "derive parallels" by just making up one of the two sides! 

Let's back up for a second. 

GRRM has said there will be a second dance of dragons. Whether it happens in KL or somewhere else, that doesn't matter. 

The imagery of that scene is clear. The massive white lizard (Viserion), the wall of black smoke, the snake, the red wings, the roar of the beast, the fire, the blood. 

Is that not clear imagery of the second dance of dragons, dragons fighting? Regardless of if it happens in Kingslanding or elsewhere. 

Quote

In the show there was only one dragon when KL got burned, whereas you are claiming there will be two. 

GRRM himself has said there will be another dance of dragons. That requires two or more dragons. 

Do you think GRRM is wrong?

Quote

You thought wrong, as you so often do. I was pointing out holes in your logic, not accepting your interpretation. 

And yet it was demonstrated nonetheless. 

Quote

You are the one who asked "And who is Biter representing?". I deny that he must represent anything other than himself. 

Biter is not representing anyone in this case, no more than Rorge is representing Alleras' mother.  

Pate is representing the swineherd prince for example, that is different.  

Biter is only a device to introduce the "massive white lizard" which is clearly connected to Viserion. Not that he is meant to be Viserion, only that he is used to bring up the word usage. 

Viserion will be there, as will Drogon. 

Quote

I haven't seen that very commonly. Nor your red dragon blooms. Your theory is still a fringe crackpot one rather than a common one, so you haven't demonstrated anything. 

What is fringe or crackpot I wonder? 

People commonly believed many things.  

Here is what is known from the text.

1. We know Arya is the third head of the dragon, the devourer 

2. When Know Jon is the reborn head, Azor Ahai reborn (Mel was looking for Stannis but could only find Snow).  

3. We know Arya is shown to be married under a heart tree. First when she comes out of her father's cloak, then when she is pledged to by Jaqen under the heart tree in Harrenhall, and the third time is when fArya is married under the heart tree in Winterfell. 

Jon was suppose to be the dragon, until the story of Aegon and Young Griff later. The pisswater prince. 

There is now a fArya and a fAegon. 

There is the real Arya and the real Aegon. 

The former two will take the worse fates sadly, but the latter two will be joined together under the old gods.   

It is taken straight from GRRM original outline. With Tyrion, Jon, and Arya. It is the story being told, you just need to see it.  

Aegon is the red hand from Paradise lost. In the Mercy chapter the stranger is revealed to have killed Cersei's family, not Tyrion. The alchemist introduces himself as the stranger. 

The play is the bloody hand, and the red hand is mentioned in the Waif's backstory. 

Lightbringer is the name of Lucifer from the book, just as it is the name of the sword Azor Ahai will wield. Jon is Azor Ahai, the reborn head. 

Rhaegar had two sons who lived (Two thirds of his wealth according to the waif). Lucifer has two names, the red right hand and Lightbringer. 

Jon will wield the sword Lightbringer, and Aegon will wield bloody hands (the Valonqar) for vengeance. This is the story told in the waif's backstory. 

These are truths from the text, plain and simple, yet many people decide to find patterns elsewhere, just like in real life. Despite the answer being so close at hand. 

Quote

Not by Maggie. 

By GRRM. 

Maggy uses THE valonqar, not YOUR valonqar. If the brother was Cersei's, she would use a possessive pronoun, just as she did with regard's to Cersei's children. 

Quote

Maggie doesn't speak like that guy generally. She's speaking cryptically & prophetically rather than conversationally, and she's not handing over a severed head to Cersei. 

Exactly, it is a riddle Maggy leaves people to solve, which is why terms like Valonqar are used after the descriptor "younger and more beautiful". 

If she said the valonqar, who is younger and more beautiful, Cersei's fear wouldn't run wild about another queen. 

However the way it is told is deliberate. 

Quote

But if Maggie is saying he's going to kill Cersei, he can't be little anymore! Unless his skeleton is getting re-animated or something. 

The same would apply to Jaime then (who is not little anymore). The point is that is how Aegon is remember, not that he is still little. 

Jaime is not remembered as a little boy, he is remembered as he is remembered now. 

On more on the topic of seeing patterns. On the surface Cersei is established to be like the mad king. 

But on reading her chapters, we find her to be more like Robert. She drinks and gain weight, she sleeps with multiple people, and she lusts over the man she couldn't have (as Robert does with Lyanna). 

Cersei could never have Rhaegar, and Robert could never have Lyanna. Instead Rhaegar and Lyanna had each other, while Robert and Cersei were stuck together.  

Robert was killed by a boar, and Cersei will be killed by the Valonqar, once known as the swineherd prince. 

The swine kills the king and the queen both. Aegon is the red hand of vengeance, against the family that killed his and took his father's throne. 

Quote

"The old king" can also mean "the previous king" as opposed to "the new king". He is not currently an old man on the throne. 

Jaehaerys is mentioned as the old king after he dies and after his successors. Both during the reign of Aegon IV, up till present day. It is because he lived to be the oldest king. 

Quote

Maggie didn't say anything about a dead king strangling Cersei, but instead a little brother. And Aegon hasn't been anyone's brother since the sack. 

Aegon was the little brother, the one who was thought to die in the red keep, the same place Cersei will be killed. 

Quote

Are you now arguing he didn't? I know people think he warged into Ghost (like Robb did into Grey Wind) and will come back, but are you saying he's merely wounded but alive? 

Both were thought to have been killed, true or otherwise. 

Jon was killed but comes back to life, but he is thought to have been killed in castle black, just as Aegon was thought to be killed in the red keep. 

The two colors are the colors of their father's sigil. They are the two thirds of his wealth that his gave away (Rhaenys died) that the waif speaks of. 

 

Quote

Collective responsibility extending over families is an existing concept in that world (that's why there's a tradition of taking hostages), but it's not usually expressed by strangling the person related to the person who wronged you. 

It is from the story of paradise lost, he is the red right hand of vengeance. Against the family that killed his and took their throne. 

It is told in the waif's story. 

And as you have said, Jaqen is a killer. 

Quote

I don't understand why you are arguing this point at all. Two dead children were recovered from the Red Keep. Tywin has admitted he sent Amory & Gregor to kill them, with Tywin giving Amory's report on his own actions and Gregor confessing to raping Elia and killing her with her "whelp". What else could be the case and when could that ever be revealed?

NO! He said "I killed her screaming whelp", in the singular, not the plural "whelps". 

Yes, you are correct. I had confused your original statement about Oberyn saying it was both children with Gregor. I assume Gregor had heard the stories, so he knew what people believed. 

Could Gregor have been the killer? Of course. But he was in a blood lust, he would have no clue who or what he was killing. 

Something else happened during the sack, and I suspect we will find out in the next two books. 

Quote

 

No, it's not written with a capital 'V' like a title, but a lowercase 'v' like an ordinary word. 

In the case of the prophecy, it is a title just like the prince who was promised, Nissa Nissa, or any such other riddle. 

Quote

One word is shorter than two.

In what other cases could she replace multiple words with a single Valyrian one?

Three syllables for "valonqar" vs four for "little brother", so it is shorter in terms of both words & syllables. 

I do not believe you are arguing the word use of Valonqar means nothing after you claim that Maggy speaks cryptically on purpose. I refuse to believe you are making this argument in good faith. 

Quote

But her next words AREN'T "and when". Instead she says "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you" in response to Cersei's question about children, following it up with "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds" before Cersei can respond. She's responding to a completely different question (about children rather than Cersei being queen) by the time she brings up any valonqar.

There's not "a comma" in between those two sections, but an entirely new question from Cersei and multiple clauses from Maggie.

IT'S NOT THE SAME SENTENCE, LEARN TO READ! 

Let us look over the prophecy for a second. 

First Cersei asks a question and Maggy tells her “Queen you shall be … until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.” 

She asks a second question, to which Maggy offers one interim sentence: "“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.” 

These three are things she will hold dear, her children who the "younger and more beautiful" person will take. 

Cersei is done asking questions, but Maggy continues: 

"“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds1,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." 

1. Gold shall be their shrouds mean they will die with golden hair, meaning they will die young before their hair greys. This relates to her having what she holds dear taken from her. 

The Valonqar proceeds to kill her afterwards (her tears drown her, just as she drowned in Rheagar's sad purple eyes). The Valonqar takes what she holds dear, casts her down, and kills her.  

How does she describe as the most beautiful? Rhaegar. Who is more beautiful and younger? His son, the valonqar. 

I hope you can see now, it is clear and obvious. 

Quote

Every "the" is also an "a". The president is a president, the king is a king, the sultan of swat is a sultan of swat. 

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. 

The president is always a president, but a president is not always the president. 

Quote

The person handing over the head is claiming it is a specific head that Cersei wanted. In fact, he is wrong, because it is the wrong head. If he'd just said it's "a valonqar", that wouldn't mean much, because there are many little brothers.

And if it were Cersei's brother, Maggy would say much the same. She claimed the three children were for her, giving Cersei possession. But the Valonqar wasn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/19/2020 at 12:29 AM, Leonardo said:

Well ffs this has become unreadable lol

@butterweedstrover I hope you're happy you derailed an existing thread rather than starting a separate one for your theory.

On 11/28/2020 at 9:54 PM, butterweedstrover said:

In this case my friend, the word use is what matters

"Mat" and "matted" are different words. A floor mat is not really "matted".

Quote

Alleras' hair is matted from bathing.

NO. It's never described as "matted" at all! Nor is it even indicated that Alleras' last bath was all that recent.

Quote

 

 There are three types of alcohol:

Liquor, Wine, and Beer.

 

What about mead?

Quote

Cider is part of the third class, just like the Beer Jaqen wants to drink.

Why lump it in with beer rather than wine, which is also made from fruit rather than grains?

Quote

Both are sphinxes

Jaqen is never referred to as a sphinx.

Quote

Not always true.

Yes, it is always true! Assuming the conclusion is a LOGICAL FALLACY! You can do the OPPOSITE, by starting with an assumption you want to disprove and showing it leads to a contradiction. You plainly don't understand logic, which is related to why you don't understand your failure to demonstrate anything.

Quote

If the answer bellies the question

What do you mean by this?

Quote

In this case, there are two sphinxes, both at the citadel. The one Aemon spoke about is the riddle, not the riddler.

You haven't established Jaqen is a sphinx, and Aemon doesn't say anything about there being multiple sphinxes. He merely says "the sphinx", and if there were multiple ones he wouldn't be doing anything to pin down WHICH his statement was referring to.

Quote

What Leo knows or doesn't know is of no consequence

Yes, it matters, because Leo is the one talking! You regularly disregard WHY a character would say a particular thing, as if they weren't distinct characters at all. Even the POV characters in this story can be unreliable, and since Lazy Leo is just insulting people for fun, he's particularly unreliable and his insults are evidence chiefly of his own character.

Quote

Jaqen is tied to a "monkey from the summer isles" and Alleras is tied to an "ape from the summer isles".

First off, you've got those the wrong way around. In one of them we have prose which doesn't represent dialogue but is from Arya's POV and is her comparing a memory of a drawing of an ape to RORGE, not JAQEN. In another, it is not even POV text but instead Leo and he's not even referring directly to Alleras but instead an unknown mother. That doesn't actually "tie" anyone in any equivalent way. You are merely searching for phrases that appear in both storylines however dissimilarly they are used for the two characters.

Quote

Aegon has two hair colors, and is of mixed blood

You are again assuming the conclusion you are trying to prove!

Quote

The Bloody Mummers are a literary device used to signify Jaqen's false identity.

No, they're a group of mercenaries with many members other than Jaqen and existed before he joined them. If membership in the Brave Companions is supposed to "prove" anything, it must do so for all of its members.

Quote

But more to the point, it matters for only one of the characters, for he is the person for which trait Y is trying to be proven.

YOU are the one trying to prove it. The text itself does nothing to indicate that membership in the Bloody Mummers is of special significance to Jaqen and no one else.

Quote

If A does C, and B does C, that doesn't mean that A is B.

I never argued that Sandor, Rorge & Lem are all the same person. I am instead denying the conclusion you are trying to draw from them all wearing the same helmet!

Quote

But again, if something tell us the truth, as has been well established

NO, you have NOT "established" anything!

Quote

We know one of the Sphinxes has a dragon egg (as I have established).

No, you don't actually know how to establish anything, which is why you always fail to do so.

Quote

We know one of the Sphinxes is the swineherd prince and was previously Strider, both secret princes.

No, we don't "know" any of that, those are characters you grabbed from entirely different stories!

Quote

 Arthurian legend is the basis for modern fantasy.

That doesn't prove that say, Terry Brooks, has even read Nennius despite writing "modern fantasy".

Quote

The facelessmen are not mummers.

Arya actually does join a troupe of mummers while working for the FM.

Quote

Curious, very curious. Do you agree Serra is YG's mother?

No, I don't agree. And it's not that "curious" because these things are just fan theories.

Quote

They are rough and tumble, not feminine princesses like Sansa or Myrcella.

I think many would deny Dany is that much like Myrcella.

Quote

Dany prefers colorful rogues like Drogo, Daario, and Euron.

She hasn't even met Euron. I doubt she would like a guy who impregnates a woman and then cuts out her tongue and imprisons her in his ship.

Quote

But who is someone with colorful hair

Did Drogo have "colorful hair"?

Quote

The love triangle with Jon, Arya, and Tyrion.

None of those people is Aegon VI.

Quote

Jon was suppose to be a Targaryen

In the show, he really was half-Targaryen.

Quote

They took a simple case and turned it into a wild goose chase, and soon the killer fell of the list of suspects.

They predicted something that actually happened in the show. I don't think you're in any position to ding them for inaccuracy.

Quote

 1. We know Arya is the third head of the dragon, the devourer

No, we don't know any such thing. None of the discussion of "heads of the dragon" even mentions a "devourer". You've instead taken something applying to the Great Shepherd and misapplied it somewhere entirely different.

Quote

When Know Jon is the reborn head

Even in the Great Shepherd analogy, the head itself is not said to be "reborn", any more than the devouring head is said to be "dying". Instead the dying & reborn enter & exit the two heads. You keep misapplying metaphors because you don't care about accuracy enough to check if they actually fit.

Quote

We know Arya is shown to be married under a heart tree

No, we don't know that either.

Quote

Jon was suppose to be the dragon, until the story of Aegon and Young Griff later

The two are very far apart. YG doesn't prevent Jon from anything.

Quote

These are truths from the text, plain and simple

No, it's just in your head, which is why it doesn't occur to other people.

Quote

Oh, but it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

No, and asserting it again like Lewis Carroll's Bellman does not actually make it so.

Quote

Again, speaking of commonly noticed, the killer in the case of Jack the Ripper was commonly noticed, until it wasn't.

Are you going to derail this thread again with another fringe theory? At least link to something supporting your claim.

Quote

He murders on command (supposedly). In the case above it was the names given to him by Arya, and then the break out (again commanded by her). That is all we are shown of his killing motives. A crime needs intent, not just capabilities.

He also kills Pate. Killing is his job, I don't think we need to stretch our imagination at all to see him doing that both before & after he met Arya. He is the one who proposes to Arya that he give her three deaths in the first place.

Quote

The truth is what one believes it to be.

You believing that would explain why you can persistently write nonsense accepted only by you.

Quote

If Aegon is told he is no one, then that is his life, until he finds out otherwise.

People aren't first "told" they are no one and then enlisted in the FM. They join the FM for some reason, and then give up their identity to become no one.

Quote

The Waif is not acting because she owes anything to the HoBaW, she is their as penance, she is there as punishment for her sins

The story she actually tells is one in which she joins as payment for the FM killing her stepmother. That is in the text. The ides of her doing "penance" for her "sins" is not.

Quote

Otherwise the truth is what he is told and nothing more.

What could they tell him that would make him WANT to remain in the FM?

Quote

In the case of the Waif, I do not believe you have read the evidence, I could present it to you if you wish. But regardless all else has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt through innumerable evidence.

You plainly do not know what it means to prove something "beyond a reasonable doubt", so I don't think you could convict the Waif with all the time in the world to present your "evidence".

Quote

The House of Black and White is where one goes for assisted suicide

Not if you're in Westeros, that's an entirely different continent!

Quote

and that is where she went after surviving the fall

How did she get there? Did she swim across right after falling?

Quote

Her own son was brutally killed

In the text we only have a reference to her having a stillborn daughter.

Quote

You think that number is random or made up?

A random number is less likely to be a round number. It is just a guess.

Quote

Ashara however gave her baby to the prince

That is just your theory, certainly not something widely accepted in Westeros!

Quote

She was involved, he was not

He was one of Rhaegar's friends, Ashara was merely Elia's handmaid (until she was sent home).

Quote

True, but we know YG is a fake

It is a popular fan theory, but not proven.

Quote

She has a broken heart is paying for her sin and grief

Ashara is not said to be burdened with any "sin", nor is the Waif.

Quote

Her beauty is ethereal, and now she pays for her sin in the house of black and white, a shadow of her former self. The HOBAW is where one goes to commit suicide

Westerosi would deal with guilt via the Faith of the Seven, not this Essosi death cult.

Quote

 I think Ned or Brandon was her lover, but it certainly could have been Howland Reed.

The theory that Jyanna Reed is Ashara is plainly inconsistent with your theory that Ashara is the Waif (who doesn't even have purple eyes). I don't accept that theory, but just as it hasn't been proven it hasn't been disproven either.

Quote

 Lyanna posed a threat to Elia, and Elia was meek, Ashara was her champion. She fought for her cause. Also, read AWOIAF

Again, that's not in the text, you made it up. Asserting it again changes nothing! You need to quote AWOIAF where you think the passages support your claim. Although, given your track record, I expect you will fall on your face again.

Quote

Champion, yes. Elia was too meek to fight her own battles, so Ashara took up her cause.

This is you making things up, not the text.

Quote

So you see, in the context of Barristan's thinking, he was not saying that if only I had unhorsed Rhaegar, Ashara would love me, he was saying if only I had unhorsed Rhaegar, Ashara would not look to Lyanna as a threat.

He's not saying that! If she's looking to Selmy instead of Stark, is she looking to Selmy as a threat!? That makes no sense!

Quote

She was the one who tried to split Lyanna from Rhaegar

You've made this up, it's not in the text.

Quote

"Ashara was a young, beautiful, tall and fair maiden, with haunting violet eyes.

That's not describing her as "ethereal and almost dead". You should also note that people think of her eyes as "haunting" AFTER she died, when Bran is told a story containing her she's described as having "laughing" eyes. That is one of the reasons people think she's Jyanna Reed.

Quote

In the case of the Waif I have not told you yet, but with everything else, there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

With everything else you've done a laughable job of "proving" anything.

Quote

Yes, because Connington and Lemore have different plans than him.

Is there some character-based reason for that?

Quote

Or else why send baby cloths from your son many miles away just to be destroyed for a crude motely.

Sending the child (NOT baby) clothes to the grown-up version of the same child makes some kind of sentimental logic. Sending them to an entirely different grownup makes no sense at all!

Quote

YG could recognize his own cloths

I couldn't from that age.

Quote

Ilyrio did not plan that

Under your theory, why would he expect them to behave any differently?

Quote

 YG left the mansion very early, Ilyrio barely knew his true like.

He left when JC had been exiled for about 5 years, so Illyrio knew only his childhood likes, not what he would be interested in as an adult.

Quote

He lived there longer

You haven't established any such thing (you haven't established Jaqen was ever there at all, but you certainly haven't established the length of time).

Quote

Aegon is the swineherd prince, the hidden prince, the manse was his hovel, he lived there the longest. This is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I would like you see you try a case in court to see how a jury would treat your notion of "reasonable doubt".

Quote

But a mother would

And you still haven't established Lemore is YG's mother.

Quote

Think of it like this, if your granny knitted you a sweater, would that just be used for bare thread, with no mention of it's value?

Were these clothes knitted by YG's kin? Or bought from somewhere, because Illyrio really is rich enough to act like he's buying things "at Nordstrom rack".

Quote

Practical use. Again, if you had a sweater knitted by your grandmother, would it just be used for practical means?

Yes, if I couldn't wear it anymore.

Quote

There were other chests with more cloths, any could be used

YG left when he was young, he didn't have any clothes there large enough to wear.

Quote

 

Why would Ilyrio send these clothes half way across the world just to be torn up into a crude motley when any old clothes could be used.

If he didn't know the plan, then they weren't meant for that practical usage.

 

Yeah, Illyrio sent them for sentimental reasons, then Lemore made practical use of them.

Quote

it was the pisswater prince who lived with him for most of this time

This is something you made up, it's not in the text.

Quote

The ginger and the clothes are not even given mention by Lemore or YG, but that is why they were sent.

WHY would he send those things to someone he has no reason at all to expect would care about them!?

Quote

Your mother certainly would.

My mother wound up using some of my really old clothes as rags.

Quote

There were other chests with more clothes.

Why don't you provide a quote?

Quote

Is that not clear imagery of the second dance of dragons, dragons fighting?

No, there are no dragons fighting in that scene.

Quote

GRRM himself has said there will be another dance of dragons. That requires two or more dragons.

In your version, there are only two. Why not more?

Quote

And yet it was demonstrated nonetheless.

No, this is again just you asserting things and having no idea how to actually demonstrate anything.

Quote

Biter is not representing anyone in this case

Then it was pointless of you to ask "who is Biter representing?"

Quote

Pate is representing the swineherd prince for example, that is different.

Different in that no "swineherd prince" is mentioned in the text at all, and is instead something you are inserting from elsewhere!

Quote

Biter is only a device to introduce the "massive white lizard" which is clearly connected to Viserion

Biter seriously injures Brienne, he's not "only a device" for some metaphor that's just in your head.

Quote

Here is what is known from the text.

This is just you repeating yourself, still misapplying things from one area into another.

Quote

These are truths from the text, plain and simple

Paradise Lost is not "the text", it's an entirely different work!

Quote

By GRRM.

GRRM has characters using terminology Cersei heard from Maggie prior to the flashback with Maggie, but Maggie herself has no reason to talk like characters will later.

Quote

 If the brother was Cersei's, she would use a possessive pronoun, just as she did with regard's to Cersei's children.

Cersei asks how many children she'll have, Maggie doesn't actually use the possessive "your" to describe their relation to Cersei. She does refer to "their" crowns & shrouds and "your" to refer to Cersei's tears & throat.

Quote

Exactly, it is a riddle Maggy leaves people to solve

NO, Maggie never indicates it's a "riddle" nor would there be any way for Cersei to "solve" it at that time with the information she has. We actually get inside Melisandre's head when she's getting a vision of the future, and it turns out those are genuinely hard to interpret! They're not just made hard to understand for fun.

Quote

The same would apply to Jaime then (who is not little anymore). The point is that is how Aegon is remember, not that he is still little.

How Jaime is remembered is irrelevant, him being born after Cersei is what makes him a little brother. Aegon has no older siblings left, so he is nobody's little brother.

Quote

 

On the surface Cersei is established to be like the mad king.

But on reading her chapters, we find her to be more like Robert

 

No, Robert didn't have all the schemes she did. He didn't even want to rule.

Quote

Robert was killed by a boar, and Cersei will be killed by the Valonqar, once known as the swineherd prince.

Being gored by a boar vs strangled by a little brother don't seem like parallels at all. And nobody in ASoIaF "knows" anybody as a "swineherd prince".

Quote

The swine kills the king and the queen both

Even in your bogus theory, a swineherd is not a swine!

Quote

Aegon was the little brother

He's not one now.

Quote

It is from the story of paradise lost

An entirely different story which you rather than GRRM are grafting onto ASoIaF. It's been a while since I read that, so who got strangled to death?

Quote

 And as you have said, Jaqen is a killer.

And it's possible YG could hire Jaqen to kill Cersei, but it wouldn't be personal for Jaqen.

Quote

Yes, you are correct.

I often am, whereas you are so often incorrect (as with your statement about Maggie saying something in "the same sentence"). This is because you do not care about accuracy, you are just making up whatever to fit your fringe theory.

Quote

Could Gregor have been the killer? Of course.

Why have you been arguing this point at all!? It is agreed by all the characters in the story, including Gregor himself!

Quote

he would have no clue who or what he was killing

He knew that he was sent to kill Rhaegar's children, and he smashed the skull of an infant that appeared to be Aegon's age. The baby-swap could explain that away, but it's not really "no idea", and instead a mistaken idea (due to being deliberately misled) in that case.

Quote

 Something else happened during the sack, and I suspect we will find out in the next two books.

From who!? Elia, Amory & Gregor are all dead. There's no one left to serve as a witness to what happened there.

Quote

Nissa Nissa

That IS written with capitals because it is a name, a proper noun. You keep writing "Valonqar" that way, but THE TEXT ITSELF DID NOT. Merely being part of a prophecy doesn't making anything a capitalized title.

Quote

I do not believe you are arguing the word use of Valonqar means nothing after you claim that Maggy speaks cryptically on purpose

I didn't say she speaks cryptically "on purpose". Prophets seem to speak cryptically because they don't have direct access to the truth in an understandable manner.

Quote

These three are things she will hold dear, her children who the "younger and more beautiful" person will take.

She actually holds Joffrey more dear than her younger children. And Joffrey was poisoned by Olenna Tyrell, with the help of Littlefinger. Maggie didn't actually say anyone "younger and more beautiful" would take away her children, the arrival of such a person is merely supposed to indicate the end of Cersei's time as queen.

Quote

The Valonqar takes what she holds dear, casts her down, and kills her.

No, Maggie didn't say that one person will do all those things. And it's not like Jaqen killed Joffrey!

Quote

How does she describe as the most beautiful? Rhaegar.

Maggie doesn't describe him that way.

Quote

Who is more beautiful and younger? His son, the valonqar.

There are many characters younger than Rhaegar when the books begin, but you will need to provide evidence of any of them being described as "more beautiful" than him.

Quote

 I hope you can see now, it is clear and obvious.

Your hope is again unfounded, because you have no idea what kind of evidence is "clear and obvious" rather than laughable.

Quote

 The president is always a president, but a president is not always the president.

A president is always the president of something.

Quote

And if it were Cersei's brother, Maggy would say much the same

I don't think you have a solid enough grasp of Maggie to say what she "would" do in any given circumstance. Like I said, you seem to disregard who is speaking and why they specifically would say any particular thing.

Quote

She claimed the three children were for her, giving Cersei possession. But the Valonqar wasn't.

Cersei specifically asked about her own children, and Maggie answered. Cersei left angrily before Maggie could answer any question about the valonqar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

@butterweedstrover I hope you're happy you derailed an existing thread rather than starting a separate one for your theory. 

It is very difficult to prove something when evidence that has already been established is disregarded three/four posts later. 

I stopped posting for a duration of time and this thread was inactive, so it has nothing to do with me. I am trying to explain who the three heads of the dragon are. 

And Hopeful I can convince you to see the truth, but I need good faith. I put a lot of time and energy into finding evidence for yourself, I hope you can at least appreciate my work. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

"Mat" and "matted" are different words. A floor mat is not really "matted". 

It references their hair. One is clean, the other is dirty. 

"His hair was red on one side and white on the other, all matted and filthy from cage and travel" 

"dense mat of close-cropped jet-black curls."  

The verb and the noun are related to one another. 

Matted: "tangled into a thick mass

In AFFC Alleras has a "dense mat" of hair" which is again like a thick mass. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

NO. It's never described as "matted" at all! Nor is it even indicated that Alleras' last bath was all that recent. 

He is clean (that is established) and Jaqen is dirty, opposites and parallels.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What about mead? 

It dependents. Mead is fermented honey, but sometimes it's referred to as honeyed wine.  

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why lump it in with beer rather than wine, which is also made from fruit rather than grains? 

Fruit wine is different from cider. 

Cider is fermented and bottled to have it carbonated. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider#Blending_and_bottling 

They (in the books) drink cider from a tankard, wine is associated with goblets and chalices. 

For are sake, the alcoholic drink is related to an empty and full tankard. 

"The prisoner lifted an empty tankard" - ACOK 

The fellowship is drinking from full tankards. At the quill and tankard.  

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Jaqen is never referred to as a sphinx. 

There is a second Sphinx. 

I have told you this already, but again it seems you have failed to mention it. In the reply, not once did you highlight this fact. 

Outside the gates of the citadel, Sam sees TWO sphinxes, a man and a woman. 

He meets the female Sphinx, Alleras inside. He also meets the male Sphinx inside, Pate. 

The Sphinx is the riddle, the mystery head of the trios. I have already explained why Aegon VI is a sphinx, I hope and pray you can see the truth. 

 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Yes, it is always true! Assuming the conclusion is a LOGICAL FALLACY! You can do the OPPOSITE, by starting with an assumption you want to disprove and showing it leads to a contradiction. You plainly don't understand logic, which is related to why you don't understand your failure to demonstrate anything. 

I have provided numerous pieces of evidence much you seem to forget. However, once certain truths are establish, we can look for ways in which they fit the larger story. 

And in this case, they fit perfectly. That is certainly worth mentioning. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What do you mean by this? 

Only that, if an answer fits the larger narrative, then that retroactively works to increase the viability of that answer. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You haven't established Jaqen is a sphinx, and Aemon doesn't say anything about there being multiple sphinxes. He merely says "the sphinx", and if there were multiple ones he wouldn't be doing anything to pin down WHICH his statement was referring to. 

We know there are two Sphinxes, as I have established. 

Aemon is saying there is a riddle behind who the Sphinx is. The Sphinx is the riddle. 

GRRM is telling us about the mystery head of the dragon he wants us to figure out. The unknown head of the trios. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Yes, it matters, because Leo is the one talking! You regularly disregard WHY a character would say a particular thing, as if they weren't distinct characters at all. Even the POV characters in this story can be unreliable, and since Lazy Leo is just insulting people for fun, he's particularly unreliable and his insults are evidence chiefly of his own character. 

And Arya is the one speaking otherwise. 

The point of matter is both characters (Sarella and Aegon) are related to another described as a monkey/ape from the summer isles.  

Neither of whom are compared to such a thing directly. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

First off, you've got those the wrong way around. In one of them we have prose which doesn't represent dialogue but is from Arya's POV and is her comparing a memory of a drawing of an ape to RORGE, not JAQEN. In another, it is not even POV text but instead Leo and he's not even referring directly to Alleras but instead an unknown mother. That doesn't actually "tie" anyone in any equivalent way. You are merely searching for phrases that appear in both storylines however dissimilarly they are used for the two characters. 

Yes, neither of the characters are compared to an Ape/Monkey. 

This has been stated already. Alleras is not compared to one either, his MOTHER is. 

Jaqen is not compared to a monkey, his cellmate is. 

And these are both established on early introductions to the two characters. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You are again assuming the conclusion you are trying to prove! 

With evidence from the text. I have provided much and more. 

The worm eater, the marriage under the heart tree, the mystery head of the trios, the swineherd prince, and you refuse to acknowledge proof beyond a reasonable doubt.  

So let me ask you clearly right now: Are these conclusions (above) clear and obvious? 

If not, why? I have provided overwhelming evidence, which you may have forgotten. The truth is there, you just have to be willing to see it. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, they're a group of mercenaries with many members other than Jaqen and existed before he joined them. If membership in the Brave Companions is supposed to "prove" anything, it must do so for all of its members. 

A group of mercenaries that exist at the will of the author. The Bloody mummers are meant to reinforce the overall conclusion about his duplicitous act. 

He likes making up names, he smiles like he has a secret to behold (not the action of someone with a fake mask working for a religious cult). 

He breaks his speech pattern (for all intent and purpose this also applies to accent, but I don't wish to continue that argument) under the heart tree, and he has promises to keep. 

If the other characters involved behave in a certain way, then I am sure that is relevant to their story. Just not the overarching story of ASOIAF. 

Both Rorge and Biter play with false identities, that is their relationship to the bloody mummers. However their stories are not that important. 

 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I never argued that Sandor, Rorge & Lem are all the same person. I am instead denying the conclusion you are trying to draw from them all wearing the same helmet! 

If someone is a member of the bloody mummers, they play the role of a false identity. 

That does not mean ONLY members of the bloody mummers can play the role of a false identity. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

NO, you have NOT "established" anything! 

I have, I have. 

It is disheartening to here you say this. 

But alas, let us innumerate what has been established: 

1. Pate and the Swineherd prince. The Nightengale and the Rose 

2. The Alchemist as Strider, and the fellowship at the tavern 

3. Arya is the devourer of worms. Note there are two given metaphors for the three heads of the dragon. One is the devouring head, the other is the wormed apple. Both are clear references to Arya. Her being the eater of worms is established many times throughout the series. 

4. Arya under the heart tree. She is first awoken under her father's cloak by a dragon's bloom while sleeping by the heart tree. She is pledged to under the heart tree at Harrenhall. fArya is married under the heart tree. 

5. Cersei is obsessed with Rhaegar, like Robert is with Lyanna. She wears a black dress studied with rubies after Robert dies, and she daydreams about him throughout the course of the entire fourth book. 

6. Arbor Gold is lies (this is established), urine is truth. The story of YG's background plays on the symbolism of truth and lies. The Pisswater prince was traded for Arbor Gold. The truth was traded for lies. You must agree with this, correct? 

[Side note: Ilyrio is "oddly sad" despite barely knowing young griff. You yourself have stated that YG left when he was but a child, yet Ilyrio has sentimental memories of a son who's personal effects he sends halfway across the world] 

7. The Swineherd prince is well established, as is the role of swine in the story. A boar kills Robert, and the place from which Aegon lived is referenced to as a Swineherd Hovel.   

8. The red hand. It is mentioned in the Waif's backstory, and it is mentioned again in the play called the bloody hand(s). In that play, the stranger is the true killer. The alchemist references himself as the stranger. The red right hand is the hand of vengeance. 

9. Rhaegar loved Lyanna (GRRM calls him a love-struck prince). 

10. Arya is a clear and obvious parallel to Lyanna. 

11. One of the themes of the series is history repeating itself.  

12. Ned says Arya will be a queen, Arya calls Jaqen a king. 

And much, much more. As I have discussed over many posts. But for now, dare explain how one of these points is not established. Because otherwise we cannot go on in good faith. Things must be extrapolated off of what is already established. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I think many would deny Dany is that much like Myrcella.

She hasn't even met Euron. I doubt she would like a guy who impregnates a woman and then cuts out her tongue and imprisons her in his ship.

Did Drogo have "colorful hair"? 

I have discussed this elsewhere. 

Dany would not be attracted to Jon. 

Drogo has bells in his beard, and Euron has the blue lips. 

She will not love Euron, but again he is established as alike to her lovers. She calls Daario a monster, and Drogo is clearly one, but she lusts after both. 

As for Daenerys herself, she is a leader, brave, but feminine, much like Myrcella. Dany is not rough and tumble like Arya, Ygritte, or Val. 

She enjoys jewels, and pretty slippers, and does not fight herself. Jon is attracted to the former three, not Dany. 

So despite it being well established that neither would be attracted to one another, a massive segment of the fandom decided that they would fall in love. 

Daenerys will have a central lover. It is the one she will mount, it is the one a treason will be committed for, and the one she will set a fire for. 

Her nephew, Aegon VI. He was established as being a colorful rouge who makes women swoon. He is her match. 

But like the original outline, certain things were changed. Daenerys was added, as was Aegon VI. 

Arya know has a new lover, and Tyrion will lust after Dany (it was established in the show). The producers could not tell that story, so they cut out the Valonqar, the three heads of the dragon, and made Jon into Aegon. 

 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

In the show, he really was half-Targaryen. 

All Targaryens not born of incest are half-Targaryen. 

Aegon and Rhaenys were both half Dornish. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They predicted something that actually happened in the show. I don't think you're in any position to ding them for inaccuracy. 

Hm? 

I am speaking of human nature, it is possible for the most obvious answer to go so far astray when the masses begin to debate something. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, we don't know any such thing. None of the discussion of "heads of the dragon" even mentions a "devourer". You've instead taken something applying to the Great Shepherd and misapplied it somewhere entirely different.

Even in the Great Shepherd analogy, the head itself is not said to be "reborn", any more than the devouring head is said to be "dying". Instead the dying & reborn enter & exit the two heads. You keep misapplying metaphors because you don't care about accuracy enough to check if they actually fit. 

"The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don’t know what the middle head’s supposed to do" 

This is the line. 

1. Devours the dying. Wormed apples are dying, worms are symbols of death as they fester on corpses in the ground. 

2. Reborn emerges from the third. This means the third head is from where the reborn arises. Jon will be reborn, as he is the third head. He is Azor Ahai reborn. 

3. The middle head is the mystery head, it is unknown. 

You can see the truth if you want, but you have to be willing. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, we don't know that either. 

Is shown, on three different occasions. Please explain why not.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The two are very far apart. YG doesn't prevent Jon from anything. 

The story changes. Originally it was Jon, Tyrion, and Arya. 

Daenerys and Aegon were added later. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Are you going to derail this thread again with another fringe theory? At least link to something supporting your claim. 

I am speaking about human nature, and I provided a real world example. This is history of which we speak. If you are curious here is a documentary on the subject. It is form the Smithsonian's Channel.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAelWV2iaK4 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He also kills Pate. Killing is his job, I don't think we need to stretch our imagination at all to see him doing that both before & after he met Arya. He is the one who proposes to Arya that he give her three deaths in the first place. 

Yes, and I don't believe he kills Pate for the facelessmen. 

But as I was saying before, the secret he is hiding is his identity. There is a reason he smiles all the time, and enjoys making up false names and repeating his place of birth (much like Hugor Hill and Alleras). If it were just a false mask, then he would embody that person, not dangle a secret in front of everyone. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

The story she actually tells is one in which she joins as payment for the FM killing her stepmother. That is in the text. The ides of her doing "penance" for her "sins" is not. 

Please read the Waif's backstory by shifting the narration between Aegon VI and Ashara Dayne. Pay attention to 2/3s of her father's wealth. 

Much like Young Griff's backstory, the telling is riddled with imagery and symbolism. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What could they tell him that would make him WANT to remain in the FM? 

Want has nothing to do with it. Like joining the nightswatch, once you are a member there is no getting out. Aegon was thirteen at the time, a year younger than Jon in the first book. He only leaves once he realizes his true identity. 

He tells Arya he has promises to keep, he is the prince who was promised. He must fulfill his destiny (or so he thinks). 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Not if you're in Westeros, that's an entirely different continent! 

Braavos is closer by than many other places in Westeros. 

Is there any such place you know of  within the seven kingdoms?

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

In the text we only have a reference to her having a stillborn daughter. 

In the text we are told numerous stories about Ashara. Some stories even claim she never jumped off a cliff, others say she had no baby at all. 

The stillborn is what Barristan heard, and it makes perfect sense. He was a member of the kingsguard, and the story about one of the royal family's lady-in-waiting would reach his ear. 

Ashara could not hide that she was pregnant, but when it came time to switch her child with Elia's, the story need say that Ashara had her baby be stillborn. Otherwise people would ask what happened to the child. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

A random number is less likely to be a round number. It is just a guess. 

And not a random guess, it is meant to tell us about the character we are introduced to. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Ashara is not said to be burdened with any "sin", nor is the Waif. 

Ashara does, and so does the Waif. It is why the Waif has posioned herself in punishment, and Ashara blames herself for starting the war. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

He's not saying that! If she's looking to Selmy instead of Stark, is she looking to Selmy as a threat!? That makes no sense! 

It is a well known interpretation, I am surprised you have not heard. 

But rest assured, she would not look to Selmy as a threat, only that her attention would be focused elsewhere. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You've made this up, it's not in the text. 

No, it is known. Read the Waif's backstory, notice the narration shifts from time to time. It is about the tourney at Harrenhall, and what happens afterwards. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's not describing her as "ethereal and almost dead". You should also note that people think of her eyes as "haunting" AFTER she died, when Bran is told a story containing her she's described as having "laughing" eyes. That is one of the reasons people think she's Jyanna Reed. 

Others describe her that way as well. Her beauty was not traditionally so like Catelyn or Cersei, nor was she wild like Lyanna. Instead she had pale skin, haunting eyes, and an ethereal figure. Actually, other fans describe her this way as well. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

With everything else you've done a laughable job of "proving" anything. 

Sigh

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Is there some character-based reason for that? 

They do not see Ilyrio as being in charge, nor do they think to report back to him. Both him and Varys are in over their heads. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Sending the child (NOT baby) clothes to the grown-up version of the same child makes some kind of sentimental logic. Sending them to an entirely different grownup makes no sense at all!

I couldn't from that age.

Under your theory, why would he expect them to behave any differently?

He left when JC had been exiled for about 5 years, so Illyrio knew only his childhood likes, not what he would be interested in as an adult.

You haven't established any such thing (you haven't established Jaqen was ever there at all, but you certainly haven't established the length of time).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I would like you see you try a case in court to see how a jury would treat your notion of "reasonable doubt". 

Tsk tsk tsk. 

If the clothing does not fit young griff, why would he send them at all?  

He could keep them safe in his manse, or he would send them over because he would think they have sentimental value to those they are being handed over to. 

But lemore and YG do not pay them any mind, in fact not even a mention of these clothing belonging to Young Griff are made. 

So we return to the manse, Ilyrio barely knew his own son, but there was another who lived longer in his manse, the pisswater prince. There was a baby swap, but young griff is too young, he was born later. 

Who know a character who chews ginger, and would recognize his own cloths. 

And George is very clever, he must have enjoyed writing this obscure line in ACOK. The line where Dany compares Ilyrio's manse to a SWINEHERD HOVEL. It was Aegon's home the longest, and most of his things are still there, not YG (who had been gone for many many years at this point). 

That is pure brilliance, but sadly it went over many people's head. I am presenting it to you so you can better appreciate his clever writing. I give GRRM props for adding that line. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

And you still haven't established Lemore is YG's mother. 

Even if not, she plays the role of foster mother as a Septa. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Why don't you provide a quote? 

"“Clothing as well,” Haldon broke in. “Court clothes, for all our party. Fine woolens, velvets, silken cloaks. One does not come before a queen looking shabby … nor emptyhanded. The magister has been kind enough to provide us with suitable gifts.”

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

In your version, there are only two. Why not more? 

I think there will be at least three. The scene only mentions two because that is how many Arya will face at this given moment in time. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, this is again just you asserting things and having no idea how to actually demonstrate anything. 

The fire in the Gods Eye representing fire by dragons? 

Isn't this clear and obvious? If you disagree, please tell me why. Have I not proven this beyond a reasonable doubt? 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Then it was pointless of you to ask "who is Biter representing?" 

A massive white lizard that hisses, soon before a fire with red wings, black smoke, and the roar of a beast. 

Nothing could be more clear, in fact just as Arya attempts to tame the massive white lizard, Quentyn attempts to tame Viserion. 

 

What about these words are not clear. Massive white lizard is taken straight from the text, it is clear and obvious. What do you not see here? 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Different in that no "swineherd prince" is mentioned in the text at all, and is instead something you are inserting from elsewhere! 

Just like lightbringer is taken from paradise lost, as is the red hand and seven folded rage, classic fairy tales are utilized in fiction. 

In the case above, the comparison between the Swineherd prince (pig boy, nightingale, and rose) is clear and obvious. 

What do you not see? 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Biter seriously injures Brienne, he's not "only a device" for some metaphor that's just in your head. 

At the moment in time, being chained up by the gods eye, he produces an image of a massive white lizard hissing at Arya. 

She tries to get him to stand down, as Quentyn does with Viserion. 

What is not clear and obvious about this? It is right there in the text. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

GRRM has characters using terminology Cersei heard from Maggie prior to the flashback with Maggie, but Maggie herself has no reason to talk like characters will later. 

Maggy could have said your Valonqar. She didn't, which is the point. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Cersei asks how many children she'll have, Maggie doesn't actually use the possessive "your" to describe their relation to Cersei. She does refer to "their" crowns & shrouds and "your" to refer to Cersei's tears & throat. 

"for you" 

Those line signify the Children are part of Cersei's possession, they are her children. 

However Valonqar is never said to be her brother. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

NO, Maggie never indicates it's a "riddle" nor would there be any way for Cersei to "solve" it at that time with the information she has. We actually get inside Melisandre's head when she's getting a vision of the future, and it turns out those are genuinely hard to interpret! They're not just made hard to understand for fun. 

It is for us to solve, which is exactly why you called it cryptic. Why else would GRRM write it this way? 

I find it difficult to believe you don't think a prophecy in a book series is meant to be analyzed for clues. This is exactly what George wants, yet you have twisted yourself into a pickle by arguing that any evidence to what it could mean should be disregarded.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How Jaime is remembered is irrelevant, him being born after Cersei is what makes him a little brother. Aegon has no older siblings left, so he is nobody's little brother. 

For you it would be since you said Aegon is no longer little. 

Regardless he, like the old king, is remembered as the little brother because he 'died' so young. Jaime is rarely if ever referenced to as the younger brother. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, Robert didn't have all the schemes she did. He didn't even want to rule. 

Robert enjoyed the role of being king, just not the responsibilities. Cersei in the fourth book is shown to be much like him, only she thinks she is like Tywin which makes her more delusional. 

She drinks, gains weight, attempts to sleep with many paramours, and most importantly she day dreams about the man she never had (Rhaegar) like Robert does with Lyanna. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Being gored by a boar vs strangled by a little brother don't seem like parallels at all. And nobody in ASoIaF "knows" anybody as a "swineherd prince". 

These our parallels for us (the readers) to discover. Aegon did not plan on Robert being killed by a boar, but he wishes to take revenge on the usurpers. 

This is what the red hand is, or the bloody hand as referenced in the play. Cersei thinks Tyrion is the Valonqar, and she thinks he has the bloody hands. That he killed her son and father. 

But he did neither. Joffrey and Tywin were both poisoned, and the Valonqar is working to meet her demise. 

Notice both Olenna and Oberyn were the poisoners, and they too were working with someone. Doran, the man Oberyn was working closely with, did not want Tywin. Instead he wanted to take everything from Tywin, and he showed bitter disappointment when he heard the dwarf had killed his father. 

Oberyn had other predilections, for he was working with someone else, who convinced him now was the time to strike. As for Olenna, GRRM tells us himself:  

"In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it."

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/george-r-r-martin-on-who-killed-joffrey-246332/       

Both were working with the Valonqar, unbeknownst to the other, and were given the posions that killed Joffrey and Tywin. 

The Valonqar as we know is in the citadel, so he could not have done it himself. Though this explains how "everything" is taken from Cersei, otherwise the prophecy would not work. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Even in your bogus theory, a swineherd is not a swine! 

Sigh

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's not one now.

He is the little brother to Rhaenys, that is how he is remembered. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

And it's possible YG could hire Jaqen to kill Cersei, but it wouldn't be personal for Jaqen. 

YG would not need to hire an assassin, for he will be dead. 

Aegon is the red hand, he has promises to keep. Just as he is in the citadel on his own accord, he will kill Cersei on his own accord. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

There are many characters younger than Rhaegar when the books begin, but you will need to provide evidence of any of them being described as "more beautiful" than him. 

The version of someone who is "younger and more beautiful" is there child. Just as Sansa is a younger and more beautiful version of Catelyn. 

Otherwise beauty would be subjective. 

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

A president is always the president of something. 

Oh please, you know that when referencing the president, that is a specific person. 

A president could or could not be that president.  

Back to the square and rectangle. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/30/2020 at 11:48 AM, butterweedstrover said:

I stopped posting for a duration of time and this thread was inactive, so it has nothing to do with me

The thread was originally about the number of books remaining, but then you brought in your crackpot theory accepted by no one else in the thread, resulting in multiple pages consisting entirely of CamiloRP & me arguing with you about said theory rather than the number of books.

Quote

And Hopeful I can convince you to see the truth, but I need good faith. I put a lot of time and energy into finding evidence for yourself, I hope you can at least appreciate my work.

I "appreciate" your work as much as it deserves appreciation. I actually don't think it deserves nearly as much time as I have spent reading it, but I don't like such nonsense to remain unanswered. Yeah, someone is wrong on the internet.

Quote

The verb and the noun are related to one another.

They are "related" but not the same. You simply look for words (and not even the same word in this case) in different books and then proclaim a parallel, even in cases like this where so many things are opposite.

Quote

opposites and parallels

An "opposite" is typically not a "parallel", but rather the opposite! When things are supposed to contrast, the more common word is "foil".

Quote

There is a second Sphinx.

You've talked about two sphinxes at a temple, but that says nothing about whether Alleras has any kind of doppelganger. Alleras is the only person called a sphinx, and Aemon only speaks of one sphinx.

Quote

I have already explained why Aegon VI is a sphinx

You've explained with things like multicolored hair even though that DOESN'T apply to Alleras.

Quote

I have provided numerous pieces of evidence much you seem to forget

I didn't "forget", I explained why I reject your "evidence".

Quote

However, once certain truths are establish

Which you have repeatedly failed to do.

Quote

Only that, if an answer fits the larger narrative, then that retroactively works to increase the viability of that answer.

One can sometimes make an argument from parsimony, that everything fits together simply given a certain assumption. There are many meta-arguments against reliance on parsimony, but it is a common notion. But you aren't resolving lots of open questions with a minimum of assumptions, instead you've got a long chain of assumptions, which is not very parsimonious.

Quote

 We know there are two Sphinxes, as I have established.

We know there's a representation of two sphinxes, we don't know that says anything about any parallel to Alleras.

Quote

GRRM is telling us about the mystery head of the dragon

He never said there's any connection between sphinxes and heads of the dragon.

Quote

The unknown head of the trios.

He also didn't say there's any connection between the Great Shepherd and the dragon.

Quote

And Arya is the one speaking otherwise.

No, she's not speaking, she's just thinking to herself.

Quote

The point of matter is both characters (Sarella and Aegon) are related to another described as a monkey/ape from the summer isles.

Jaqen is not "related" to Rorge, he's just locked up alongside him (as is Biter, who per GRRM does have a pre-existing connection to Rorge).

Quote

you refuse to acknowledge proof beyond a reasonable doubt

You don't know what it means to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt.  You should read up some legal analysis of the burden of proof. The reasonable doubt standard arose from the belief that a member of a jury would have their soul damned by God if they convicted an innocent man. You haven't gotten anyone reading to be willing to risk damning their soul (assuming they believe themselves to have one), instead we reject it without facing any risk for agreeing. The notion of you getting a random selection of 12 to unanimously endorse your theory would be more ludicrous still!

Quote

So let me ask you clearly right now: Are these conclusions (above) clear and obvious?

As I have said repeatedly, no they are not.

Quote

If not, why? I have provided overwhelming evidence, which you may have forgotten.

I have not forgotten, go back and read my prior responses. Also read up on "burden of proof": you need to prove your novel theory you've tossed into the room like a dead skunk, nobody else needs to prove anything not to accept it.

Quote

A group of mercenaries that exist at the will of the author

An author who populated it with many other members other than Jaqen!

Quote

not the action of someone with a fake mask working for a religious cult

FM's are not supposed to be recognizable as FM at all. How they publicly behave in a mask is not determined by the mere fact that they are an FM, but instead what suits the role they are playing.

Quote

He breaks his speech pattern (for all intent and purpose this also applies to accent, but I don't wish to continue that argument) under the heart tree

He was swearing an oath to a Westerosi, and "refined" Lorathi speech patterns rooted in self-denial would be less suited to that purpose.

Quote

 If someone is a member of the bloody mummers, they play the role of a false identity.

What are the false identities of Vargo Hoat, Urswyck, Utt, Qyburn, Shagwell, Zollo, Timeon, Pyg, Iggo, Togg Joth, Three Toes or Biter?

Quote

1. Pate and the Swineherd prince. The Nightengale and the Rose

You haven't established those. The phrase "swineherd prince" doesn't appear anywhere in ASoIaF, you simply grabbed it from elsewhere.

Quote

2. The Alchemist as Strider, and the fellowship at the tavern

No, as was pointed out many fantasy characters fit the characteristics you seize on. And there are no central characters in the "fellowship" at the tavern, the novices are instead all new characters.

Quote

Note there are two given metaphors for the three heads of the dragon

I reject your assertion that either is actually a "metaphor for the three heads of the dragon". The rule of three is just way too common.

Quote

Arbor Gold is lies (this is established), urine is truth

When Tyrion drinks arbor gold on his wedding night, that has nothing to do with lies, it's just wine. And when he is urinating off the Wall, that has nothing to do with truth, it's just urine.

Quote

Side note: Ilyrio is "oddly sad" despite barely knowing young griff. You yourself have stated that YG left when he was but a child, yet Ilyrio has sentimental memories of a son who's personal effects he sends halfway across the world

There's nothing at all contradictory about that. Illyrio remembers him as a child, and his memories are sentimental. What would make no sense is sending him the clothes of an entirely different child.

Quote

The Swineherd prince is well established

No, as I said, the phrase never appears in this series.

Quote

the place from which Aegon lived

That has only been established for YG, not Jaqen.

Quote

In that play, the stranger is the true killer

No, the Tyrion character really is supposed to be the murderer. And NONE of the people killed in the play were killed by Jaqen.

Quote

The red right hand is the hand of vengeance

It's not established that Jaqen is "the red right hand" (even in the play, that's Tyrion, not the Stranger), nor have Jaqen's kills been part of any discernible "vengeance" on his part.

Quote

One of the themes of the series is history repeating itself.

Some things repeat themselves, but other things don't. Twice in a row the Lord of Winterfell has been executed by the King in KL and his eldest living son has risen up in rebellion against a spawn of incest... but it turned out very differently the second time compared to the first.

Quote

Arya calls Jaqen a king

NO, SHE DOESN'T. She asks if he would even kill a king, and then when he replies yes she tells him to kill himself, but that is not the same as calling him a king.

Quote

Things must be extrapolated off of what is already established.

I agree, which is one of the big problems with your method of argumentation. You rely so much on so many assumptions which are NOT established.

Quote

Drogo has bells in his beard, and Euron has the blue lips.

Those are very different things. One is a deliberate ornamentation, the other is something that could happen merely as the result of being very cold (which would not be considered desirable to kiss).

Quote

As for Daenerys herself, she is a leader, brave, but feminine, much like Myrcella

I don't think Myrcella has done anything comparable in bravery to Dany.

Quote

Dany is not rough and tumble like Arya, Ygritte, or Val.

Dany has lived among the Dothraki, and even been embraced by them. She even ate a whole horse heart! Dany has also learned multiple languages, like Arya.

Quote

So despite it being well established that neither would be attracted to one another

No, it's not "well-established". For example, Jon likes Arya more than Sansa, because Arya likes him and doesn't dismiss him as the bastard half-brother. But this doesn't mean he wouldn't be attracted to a girl like Sansa. In fact, Ygritte & Sansa are both redheads and he uses lines recommended by Sansa when talking to women!

Quote

Arya know has a new lover

As of her latest chapters, she hasn't had any lovers.

Quote

I am speaking of human nature, it is possible for the most obvious answer to go so far astray when the masses begin to debate something.

I don't think you get to deem them as having gone "astray" when the show supported their theories and not yours.

Quote

Reborn emerges from the third. This means the third head is from where the reborn arises. Jon will be reborn, as he is the third head

NO, the third head ITSELF is not reborn, instead the reborn emerge FROM the third head. So more like Thoros of Myr than the show's version of Jon after season 5.

Quote

Is shown, on three different occasions. Please explain why not.

You haven't met even a minimal burden of proof for showing that Arya will marry at all.

Quote

 

Originally it was Jon, Tyrion, and Arya.

Daenerys and Aegon were added later.

 

Daenerys was in the original pitch letter, and has from the first book been the most obvious "head of the dragon" (Viserys was really the only other obvious candidate in that book, but his death showed Dany was more important). The pitch letter said nothing about the love triangle having anything to do with "heads of the dragon".

Quote

This is history of which we speak. If you are curious here is a documentary on the subject. It is form the Smithsonian's Channel.

It appears to be about the fringe theory of some Swedish journalist.

Quote

Yes, and I don't believe he kills Pate for the facelessmen.

He kills him to take his face.

Quote

If it were just a false mask, then he would embody that person

How do you know that's not what he's doing?

Quote

Please read the Waif's backstory by shifting the narration between Aegon VI and Ashara Dayne

Why would I do that? Neither person is mentioned there. This is like you trying to take dialogue from Pate's prologue and inserting it in the mouth of Elia.

Quote

Want has nothing to do with it. Like joining the nightswatch

They are completely different. The NW is a penal colony which people of multiple faiths are sentenced to. The FM are a cult which people voluntarily serve out of religious devotion.

Quote

He tells Arya he has promises to keep, he is the prince who was promised

When someone says they have "promises to keep", that's referring to promises they themselves made, not a promise predating their birth.

Quote

Braavos is closer by than many other places in Westeros.

Anywhere in Westeros you can commit suicide. There's no need to go to another continent to a religious organization the Westerosi would regard as infidels.

Quote

Is there any such place you know of  within the seven kingdoms?

The Palestone Tower was close enough by that Ashara actually did jump out of it!

Quote

Some stories even claim she never jumped off a cliff

Not a cliff, a tower. And which stories deny she jumped?

Quote

others say she had no baby at all

Which stories are those? Some stories may not mention a baby, but I don't recall any denying she had one (stillborn or otherwise).

Quote

And not a random guess, it is meant to tell us about the character we are introduced to.

It's Tyrion's guess.

Quote

Ashara does, and so does the Waif

Neither of those things are in the text.

Quote

It is why the Waif has posioned herself in punishment

In the Waif's story, the poison failed to kill her because her stepmother did NOT go to the HoBaW. In your theory, the Waif herself DID go to the HoBaW to die, and we see that people who do that really do die rather than surviving a poisoning.

Quote

and Ashara blames herself for starting the war

Not only is that not established, it's well known that RHAEGAR'S actions (and the resulting ones of his father) started the war.

Quote

It is a well known interpretation, I am surprised you have not heard.

It doesn't really make sense the way language is normally used. "Looked to me instead of Stark" implies looking in a similar manner, rather than an opposite one.

Quote

But rest assured, she would not look to Selmy as a threat, only that her attention would be focused elsewhere.

But it didn't say "her attention would have been focused on me instead of Stark", it says "looked to".

Quote

Read the Waif's backstory, notice the narration shifts from time to time. It is about the tourney at Harrenhall, and what happens afterwards.

No, the text of the Waif's story doesn't mention anything about a tourney. It does mention her father & stepmother, who aren't characters at all in any Harrenhall story we've heard.

Quote

Others describe her that way as well

No one uses the word "ethereal" to describe her. That word occurs nowhere in the series.

Quote

Her beauty was not traditionally so

Everyone agrees she was beautiful, with Selmy insisting she was the most beautiful there.

Quote

They do not see Ilyrio as being in charge, nor do they think to report back to him.

We hear from the GC that Illyrio has made the plans they have tried to follow, but because he's so physically removed from things they have to act independently of his plans (Harry Strickland is the most reluctant to do so, but he also disavows responsibility for agreeing to any of Illyrio's plan in the first place).

Quote

If the clothing does not fit young griff, why would he send them at all?

As I have said, sentimental reasons. Those are the last things he has of YG's, and this is his last chance to send them before YG heads to Daenerys and then Westeros.

Quote

 Ilyrio barely knew his own son

It has not been established he ever had any child of his own.

Quote

but there was another who lived longer in his manse

That hasn't been established either.

Quote

the pisswater prince

The only person ever referred to as such had his head smashed.

Quote

Who know a character who chews ginger, and would recognize his own cloths.

You don't actually know Jaqen would recognize his childhood clothes if Illyrio sent them.

Quote

The line where Dany compares Ilyrio's manse to a SWINEHERD HOVEL

Pigs are often considered dirty (enough for eating them to be tabbo under both Judaism & Islam) so reference to them is a common source of derision. Hence parents telling children they eat like a pig, or their room looks like a "pigsty", or even a dirty Peanuts character being named "pigpen".

Quote

Even if not, she plays the role of foster mother as a Septa.

Do we know this "foster mother" ever saw those old clothes in the first place?

Quote

Court clothes, for all our party

Does that party include Tyrion? Other people's clothes are going to be too large for him. And since he's trying to avoid looking like a well-known dwarf previously at the court of KL, court clothes are less than ideal for him.

Quote

The scene only mentions two because that is how many Arya will face at this given moment in time.

Why wouldn't she face the third?

Quote

The fire in the Gods Eye representing fire by dragons?

There are lots of fires, they don't all represent dragon fires.

Quote

Isn't this clear and obvious? If you disagree, please tell me why. Have I not proven this beyond a reasonable doubt?

No, it is not. As I have said repeatedly, you don't seem to understand what makes something "clear and obvious" or "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is related to your failure to convince anybody. You simply seize on words and then claim there is a "parallel", often with a scene that doesn't actually exist in the text. The way one should argue is to start with and as much as possible remain with the text, as that is established and agreed upon by everyone. Extrapolations & extra assumptions should be minimized. If other people can't agree with your initial extrapolation from the text, DO NOT then go ahead and make further arguments which depend on that extrapolation! Instead you need to go back to common ground and work from there until you reach the first disagreement.

Quote

A massive white lizard that hisses, soon before a fire with red wings, black smoke, and the roar of a beast.

Biter wasn't creating any fire, instead he was going to be burned by the fire.

Quote

Nothing could be more clear

More evidence that you have no idea what is "clear". There are lots of things established in the text and agreed upon by other readers, those things are "more clear".

Quote

just as Arya attempts to tame the massive white lizard

She's not trying to "tame" him, she has no interest in a domesticated Biter. She'd prefer if he wasn't there at all.

Quote

Just like lightbringer is taken from paradise lost

"Lucifer" does mean "lightbringer", but the sword in ASoIaF has nothing to do with an angel-turned-devil.

Quote

Those line signify the Children are part of Cersei's possession, they are her children.

Cersei's question itself established that.

Quote

It is for us to solve, which is exactly why you called it cryptic.

As readers, we do have a lot more information than Cersei. But the cryptic prophecies are not expected to be "solved" by readers until after the prophesied events occur. Making them cryptic prevents any spoiling of future events, but afterward readers can go back and make connections.

Quote

I find it difficult to believe you don't think a prophecy in a book series is meant to be analyzed for clues.

I didn't say we shouldn't analyze it, but I do think you're terrible at analysis. For example, just for this prophecy you insisted Maggie said two different things "in the same sentence", when that was not the case at all. You don't care enough to be accurate in your analysis, and when an inaccuracy is pointed out it makes no difference to you because your theory never really depended on any evidence in the first place and was not vulnerable to falsification in your eyes.

Quote

For you it would be since you said Aegon is no longer little.

You are the one who brought up how people are "remembered", which I have never regarded as significant. Jaime is in fact Cersei's younger brother, regardless of memory. Aegon has no surviving older siblings.

Quote

Robert enjoyed the role of being king, just not the responsibilities

As he said with Ned, he hadn't wanted to be king in the first place, it was Jon Arryn who insisted he had the best claim. And he was willing to abandon it all if that didn't risk Joffrey taking the throne alongside Cersei as his regent.

Quote

Cersei in the fourth book is shown to be much like him, only she thinks she is like Tywin which makes her more delusional.

Yes to the second part, which is related to why I say no to the first. She's really more like Tyrion in that book than Robert. Even her deliberately hurting Taena parallels Tyrion frightening that prostitute in ADWD. Robert was only up for good times and had a sense of shame about hurting Cersei rather than some notion that he was beyond morality.

Quote

Cersei thinks Tyrion is the Valonqar, and she thinks he has the bloody hands. That he killed her son and father

He actually did kill her father. Jaqen killed neither.

Quote

But he did neither. Joffrey and Tywin were both poisoned

We saw him shoot Tywin to death! It was never established that Tywin was poisoned at all, he was still alive and talking coherently when Tyrion killed him.

Quote

Notice both Olenna and Oberyn were the poisoners

I "notice" only Olenna, Oberyn merely poisoned Gregor. Neither of them is Jaqen, of course.

Quote

Doran, the man Oberyn was working closely with, did not want Tywin

To me that makes it less likely that any Martell was plotting to kill Tywin.

Quote

Oberyn had other predilections, for he was working with someone else

This is yet another thing that hasn't been established and you are throwing out there without any textual support.

Quote

Both were working with the Valonqar

Olenna was working with LF, who has no siblings to be valonqar to!

Quote

and were given the posions that killed Joffrey and Tywin

LF supplied the poison to Dontos and from him to Sansa and then Olenna. Tywin was not killed by poison but by crossbow bolts.

Quote

The Valonqar as we know is in the citadel, so he could not have done it himself

The scheming between LF & Olenna occurred in ACoK, when Jaqen was busy in the Riverlands. He is really to pre-occuppied to have come back to KL and supplied poison to multiple people who had no reason to expect him to be there when they were plotting in the previous book. Especially since you think Jaqen went from Harrenhall to the HoBaW and then to Pyke before the Citadel!

Quote

Though this explains how "everything" is taken from Cersei, otherwise the prophecy would not work.

You have just misinterpreted the prophecy. You yourself quoted GRRM on who killed Joffrey, and it wasn't a valonqar. Myrcella & Tommen are spread apart, so they're unlikely to be killed by the same person (and we know the Tyrells DON'T want to kill Tommen at all).

Quote

Sigh

Sigh if you must, but a swineherd and a swine are very different things (even moreso than the pig vs the chicken in the Scrum parable), and your indifference to such distinctions is a big problem with your method of argument.

Quote

YG would not need to hire an assassin, for he will be dead.

I know this is going to be another thing which isn't established but only in your head, but I'll bite: how is he going to die and how to do you know.

Quote

Just as he is in the citadel on his own accord, he will kill Cersei on his own accord.

He's a busy man travelling all over, and there are too many people who would want Cersei dead.

Quote

Otherwise beauty would be subjective.

Beauty IS subjective!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

No, it's not "well-established". For example, Jon likes Arya more than Sansa, because Arya likes him and doesn't dismiss him as the bastard half-brother. But this doesn't mean he wouldn't be attracted to a girl like Sansa. In fact, Ygritte & Sansa are both redheads and he uses lines recommended by Sansa when talking to women!

Hair color and using pickup lines do not equal guaranteed attraction. What Jon seems to like about girls like Arya, Ygritte and Val are not found in girls like Sansa. Even when Jon described Ygritte's hair, it was in connection with Arya, but never once has he made the mental leap to think about the other sister when he describes Ygritte's appeal. Arya/Ygritte/Val/Dany all have that tough non-conforming rebellious personalities that don't make them the typical Lady in a tower type that Jon has no time for. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MissM said:

Hair color and using pickup lines do not equal guaranteed attraction. What Jon seems to like about girls like Arya, Ygritte and Val are not found in girls like Sansa. Even when Jon described Ygritte's hair, it was in connection with Arya, but never once has he made the mental leap to think about the other sister when he describes Ygritte's appeal. Arya/Ygritte/Val/Dany all have that tough non-conforming rebellious personalities that don't make them the typical Lady in a tower type that Jon has no time for. 

How is Dany like Val or Arya? 

Daenerys likes jewels and pretty clothes, she sits on a throne and gives out orders. Liking to ride on horseback is a great aristocratic ideal, and for much of her life she was a frightened girl.  

Her strength doesn't come from being a tomboy, it comes from her ancestry, which is very different from Val/Ygritte/Arya. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

How is Dany like Val or Arya? 

Daenerys likes jewels and pretty clothes, she sits on a throne and gives out orders. Liking to ride on horseback is a great aristocratic ideal, and for much of her life she was a frightened girl.  

Her strength doesn't come from being a tomboy, it comes from her ancestry, which is very different from Val/Ygritte/Arya. 

Fair points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, MissM said:

Hair color and using pickup lines do not equal guaranteed attraction

There is no "guaranteed attraction", particularly not for people who haven't even met yet.

Quote

the typical Lady in a tower type that Jon has no time for

How many of those has he actually interacted with?

9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

for much of her life she was a frightened girl

Was, in the past, whereas any hypothetical meeting between them would be in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/1/2020 at 6:57 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

The thread was originally about the number of books remaining, but then you brought in your crackpot theory accepted by no one else in the thread, resulting in multiple pages consisting entirely of CamiloRP & me arguing with you about said theory rather than the number of books. 

I will admit my motives are slightly selfish. 

I hope, by the end, that you will be convinced and spread the truth among your flock. It is easier to explain something to one person than it is to do the same for a general population. 

Otherwise your criticism holds no merit, but I appreciate the input. 

Quote

I "appreciate" your work as much as it deserves appreciation. I actually don't think it deserves nearly as much time as I have spent reading it, but I don't like such nonsense to remain unanswered. Yeah, someone is wrong on the internet. 

Of course I have enjoyed rereading passages, but I once more I find your denial curious. 

You have put me in a difficult position, so perhaps I should explain. 

Once I demonstrated the role of the nightingale, rose, and pigboy in the prologue to AFFC, your reaction should have been congratulatory. In that I have identified something you would have otherwise missed. 

Continuing along, the role of the three apples, the two sphinxes, and the Strider/Aragorn description should have been a coming to grace moment (for yourself). 

Finally, the dragon and the fifteen year old maiden should have sealed the deal. 

Instead, there has been nothing but denial on your end. It is curious, very curious. I believe you to be an honest person, and perhaps you initial objective of proving me wrong has colored our interaction. 

Nonetheless, I would suggest to not image yourself as a representative of this site, but rather an interested book reader with an open mind. Do not adjust your mindset for the collective goal of disciplining a new member (to this site) but rather picture our communication as if we had met in a bookstore with a shared interest in a book series. We strike up a conversation about our shared interest, and we each share little tidbits we noticed. 

I believe, truly, that the end result would be different. Not least of all because minor misunderstandings would quickly by adjusted. 

Nonetheless I retain hope that this communication will end in success. 

Quote

They are "related" but not the same. You simply look for words (and not even the same word in this case) in different books and then proclaim a parallel, even in cases like this where so many things are opposite. 

Again, it is but one of many. The "thick" mass or "dense" mat is one in the same. 

Thick or Dense hair mean on in the same thing.  

Quote

An "opposite" is typically not a "parallel", but rather the opposite! When things are supposed to contrast, the more common word is "foil". 

Perhaps inverse is a better word to use? 

You must understand what I mean, I have (I hope) explained adequetly. 

Quote

You've talked about two sphinxes at a temple, but that says nothing about whether Alleras has any kind of doppelganger. Alleras is the only person called a sphinx, and Aemon only speaks of one sphinx. 

Aemon references one of the Sphinxes, the one who is a head of the dragon. Dany is the mother of dragons, not one of the heads. 

Sam notices two Sphinxes outside of the citadel, one female, one male. 

He meets both, each going by a false name respectively. Alleras and Pate. 

Again we must reference "The Swineherd" by Hans Christian Anderson. 

The fairy tale is not called "The Swineherd prince", just "The Swineherd". 

The second reference to a hidden king/prince is the Alchemist. He has a travelers cloak, and watches our characters on  shady part of a tavern. When he meets Pate, he calls his friends the "fellowship". 

If there is an remaining doubt, please look no further than the three apples. The first apple is cored. A gold arrow coring a red apple. 

The Martell sigil is a gold spear striking the center of a red sun. Aemon is not referencing Oberyn's bastard, he is referencing the prince who was promised.   

Thank you for reading, I hope this is enough to help. 

Quote

 

You've explained with things like multicolored hair even though that DOESN'T apply to Alleras. 

My friend, the multi-colored hair was a nod to Dany's romantic partners (future and past). Not Alleras.  

The reasons for the red and white hair are of Aegon VI's own proclivities, not that if his false identity (Jaqen H'ghar). 

Red and White have nothing to do with the free city of Lorath. 

Quote

I didn't "forget", I explained why I reject your "evidence". 

Did you explain? Perhaps you could provide an abridged list. The only one you have as of recent responded to (from my list) is a reference to the Swineherd Prince. But as I mentioned above, Hans Christian Anderson's fairy tale is NOT called the Swineherd Prince, just the Swineherd. 

And we do have references to the Swineherd in the series, mainly from Dany when she called Ilyrio's manse (the place Aegon VI live in) a SWINEHERD's HOVEL. 

Honestly I think GRRM was very impressed with himself when he wrote that, he must have been giggling in joy, knowing most people will miss the foreshadowing. 

Now I will produce the list once more, and you can tell me (in short) which you do not agree has been established: 

1. Pate and the Swineherd prince. The Nightingale and the Rose 

2. Pate wants a dragon and a fifteen year old maiden 

3. The Alchemist as Strider, and the fellowship at the tavern 

4. Arya is the devourer of worms. Note there are two given metaphors for the three heads of the dragon. One is the devouring head, the other is the wormed apple. Both are clear references to Arya. Her being the eater of worms is established many times throughout the series. 

6. Arya under the heart tree. She is first awoken under her father's cloak by a dragon's bloom while sleeping by the heart tree. She is pledged to under the heart tree at Harrenhall. fArya is married under the heart tree. 

7. Cersei is obsessed with Rhaegar, like Robert is with Lyanna. She wears a black dress studied with rubies after Robert dies, and she daydreams about him throughout the course of the entire fourth book. 

8. Arbor Gold is lies (this is established), urine is truth. The story of YG's background plays on the symbolism of truth and lies. The Pisswater prince was traded for Arbor Gold. The truth was traded for lies. You must agree with this, correct? 

9. The Swineherd prince is well established, as is the role of swine in the story. A boar kills Robert, and the place from which Aegon lived is referenced to as a Swineherd Hovel.   

10. The red hand. It is mentioned in the Waif's backstory, and it is mentioned again in the play called the bloody hand(s). In that play, the stranger is the true killer. The alchemist references himself as the stranger. The red right hand is the hand of vengeance. 

11. Rhaegar loved Lyanna (GRRM calls him a love-struck prince). 

12. Arya is a clear and obvious parallel to Lyanna. 

13. One of the themes of the series is history repeating itself.  

14. Ned says Arya will be a queen, Arya calls Jaqen a king. 

Quote

 

One can sometimes make an argument from parsimony, that everything fits together simply given a certain assumption. There are many meta-arguments against reliance on parsimony, but it is a common notion. But you aren't resolving lots of open questions with a minimum of assumptions, instead you've got a long chain of assumptions, which is not very parsimonious. 

Which of the above is an 'assumption'? 

Are they all not well established? 

These are only from the top of my head, I know I have provided much more in this thread alone. 

I am also curious, if you do reject any of these established points, what to you think the general impression of the fandom (on this site) would be? Would they reject such basic observations so easily?

Quote

 

He never said there's any connection between sphinxes and heads of the dragon. 

That is because there is not. 

Sarella is a sphinx but not one of the heads of the dragon. Aegon being a Sphinx is separate from him being a head of the dragon. 

The only relationship they have is Maester Aemon. He speaks of his bloodline and the three heads, then tells Sam the Sphinx is the riddle. He is not referencing Oberyn's bastard, but his own bloodline.  

Quote

He also didn't say there's any connection between the Great Shepherd and the dragon. 

The three heads of the Shepherd are used as a reference to the three heads of the dragon, otherwise they would not exist. Most of the fandom have attempted to decipher clues from this excerpt. 

I believe I have done so quite effectively. 

Quote

No, she's not speaking, she's just thinking to herself. 

Yes, the speaker is the narrator. 

Quote

Jaqen is not "related" to Rorge, he's just locked up alongside him (as is Biter, who per GRRM does have a pre-existing connection to Rorge). 

Related in so far as they are cellmates. 

On being introduced, both characters are referenced alongside another being called an "Ape" or "Monkey". 

Quote

 

An author who populated it with many other members other than Jaqen! 

Yes, and for when it was introduced, it served its purpose. He as the author can choose to utilize it further if he so wishes (which he did).

Quote

FM's are not supposed to be recognizable as FM at all. How they publicly behave in a mask is not determined by the mere fact that they are an FM, but instead what suits the role they are playing. 

Yes, and if Jaqen was a real person he would not be glib about his identity, because again, it would be his identity.  

For example, Alayne and Cat are false identity, they are not real. The people underneath are still Sansa and Arya. 

Once the mask is worn, the FM are suppose to embody that person, not show glib smiles or play the role of a mummer.   

Arya asks him if his name is real. 

Is Jaqen H’ghar your true name?”

“Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya.” 

The comparison is with Arya, who makes up fake names, not a person with a real identity. 

 

Quote

He was swearing an oath to a Westerosi, and "refined" Lorathi speech patterns rooted in self-denial would be less suited to that purpose. 

A wonder how you do not find this as evidence. Many others would, but you however retain a general disposition against anything and everything I have said. The Lorathi have their own oaths, and he would offer one to Arya if she asked. And if he were to give an oath under the Heart tree, he would speak in his own manner. His personality does not change to fit the whims of one girl. 

Now I must ask, since you (unlike pretty much everyone else) find nothing of note in this line, I must ask an outrageous question: 

Are you adjusting your opinions to my posts alone whereas towards others you would respect their findings?

Quote

 

You haven't established those. The phrase "swineherd prince" doesn't appear anywhere in ASoIaF, you simply grabbed it from elsewhere. 

The book is titled "The Swineherd". 

You can read it if you want. Here is a translation: https://andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/TheSwineherd_e.html 

There are references to a Swineherd, specifically Dany mentioning Ilyrio's manse as a SWINEHERD's HOVEL.  

Do you not even smile at the reference? I just found it, and it had me laughing for a good minute. Anyone who enjoys GRRM's writing should appreciate that line.

Quote

No, as was pointed out many fantasy characters fit the characteristics you seize on. And there are no central characters in the "fellowship" at the tavern, the novices are instead all new characters. 

They are the POV characters, the one the man in the traveler's cloak is watching seated in the dark. He goes on to reference the POV and his friends as a fellowship. 

Again, clear and obvious. 

Quote

I reject your assertion that either is actually a "metaphor for the three heads of the dragon". The rule of three is just way too common. 

The apple is first thrown when Alleras says "the dragon has three heads". 

The trios is not just three objects, but three heads of the same beast. 

Quote

When Tyrion drinks arbor gold on his wedding night, that has nothing to do with lies, it's just wine. And when he is urinating off the Wall, that has nothing to do with truth, it's just urine. 

Sigh 

I wonder many times if you withhold this type of hyper specification just for me, or is this just your general disposition? You are ranked noble so I bow my head in deference. I am but a squire and have no friends on this site, but all my exertion has been treated with a cold shoulder. 

I am not asking for pity, but it is disheartening at times and I ask you not to see me as your enemy. 

Arbor gold is a symbol (this is known, please ask your other companions on this site), that does not mean every time it is mentioned it is referencing a lie. However, in the story being told, the usage of metaphors are clear and obvious. 

 

Quote

There's nothing at all contradictory about that. Illyrio remembers him as a child, and his memories are sentimental. What would make no sense is sending him the clothes of an entirely different child. 

Again, him sending things of sentimentality does only to be destroyed shows a difference of intent. 

If Ilyrio is the father (or foster father) and his sentimentality brings him to send a boy's cloths and favorite food to him and his mother (foster mother) you must ask why the recipients rejected these gifts off hand. Neither are noticed or even given a warm mention. 

YG does not bother with the ginger, and the mother (or foster mother) does not recall her own child's clothing.  

Quote

 

It's not established that Jaqen is "the red right hand" (even in the play, that's Tyrion, not the Stranger), nor have Jaqen's kills been part of any discernible "vengeance" on his part. 

Please read the waif's backstory for mention of the red hand. 

Quote

 

NO, SHE DOESN'T. She asks if he would even kill a king, and then when he replies yes she tells him to kill himself, but that is not the same as calling him a king. 

The meeting under the heart tree plays out as such: 

This is the first time he calls her “My lady of Stark.”  

Again this is him swearing an oath under a heart tree, much like Lyanna and Rhaegar did at Harrenhall. 

Notice she wants to free the men of her house, just as Lyanna defended Howland, her "father's man". 

"“A man, a woman, a little baby, or Lord Tywin, or the High Septon, or your father"  

These are the people Arya references, to see who she could kill. With the exception of "your father", these three are related to kingsland, where the king lives.  

1. A man: Aerys dies in KL

2. A woman: Elia dies in KL

3. A little baby: Ashara's baby, the one killed in the sack of KL 

4. Lord Tywin: the perpetrator, he dies in Kingslanding as well.  

The last mention is a High Septon, this is a reference to the high sparrow who has Cersei locked away (he like Tywin is a perpatrator). She will also die in Kingslanding. So will the High Septon.  

Your father is Rhaegar, Jaqen responds: “A man’s sire is long dead, but did he live, and did you know his name, he would die at your command.” 

Arya then says: “Even if I named the king . . .” 

Jaqen says he could kill a king and whispers "Is it Joffrey?" 

Arya then whispers his name. Joffrey is mentioned in a whisper, as is Jaqen. Both are kings.

She does not say "go kill yourself", she references his name in question of a king. 

Of course she doesn't know, and it is only incidentally. 

 But the way it was written was very clever. 

Quote

 

Those are very different things. One is a deliberate ornamentation, the other is something that could happen merely as the result of being very cold (which would not be considered desirable to kiss). 

A product of colorful personalities. Not the like of Jon Snow.

Quote

I don't think Myrcella has done anything comparable in bravery to Dany. 

She would be. Myrcella never cried when she was sent off to Dorne, she stood up to Joffrey, and she showed bravery when dealing with the conspirators. She is still young but if given that chance she would be very brave. 

But that bravery does not come from being a tomboy (like Arya). 

Quote

 

I don't think you get to deem them as having gone "astray" when the show supported their theories and not yours. 

What other theories or people are we talking about?  

They cut the Valonqar and three heads of the dragon, otherwise they would be mentioned in the show. 

The show fused together characters, it is why they named Jon "Aegon" even though his Targaryen name in the books is "Aemon". 

Quote

NO, the third head ITSELF is not reborn, instead the reborn emerge FROM the third head. So more like Thoros of Myr than the show's version of Jon after season 5. 

Azor Ahai reborn, it's a loop. He is Azor Ahai, and vice versa. They both come from each other. When Melisandre was looking for Azor Ahai, all she could find was snow. 

Jon Snow

Quote

You haven't met even a minimal burden of proof for showing that Arya will marry at all. 

I have shown you the imagery of her being sworn to under a heart tree. 

1. coming out of her father's cloak under the heart tree awoken by the red dragon bloom.  

2. Being pledged to under the heart tree in Harrenhall 

3. fArya's marriage under the heart tree

 

Quote

 

It appears to be about the fringe theory of some Swedish journalist. 

Did you watch the documentary? It was very long. 

Again, you can think for yourself, the evidence is clear and obvious. 

Quote

He kills him to take his face. 

Yes. Let me put it this way, he does not plan to steal a book from the citadel for the Facelessmen, something that doesn't fit their MO.

Quote

How do you know that's not what he's doing? 

With Jaqen? He breaks from the speech pattern, and smiles glibly like he has a secret to hold. He enjoys making up names, among other things I have already gone over. 

NOW, if you wanted to say that secret was that he was a faceless man, then that would not be Jaqen's secret (since Jaqen would be a real person different from the face holder). 

Quote

 

When someone says they have "promises to keep", that's referring to promises they themselves made, not a promise predating their birth. 

He was born with that promise, and he must live up to it. Such is the curse of great expectations. 

Quote

Anywhere in Westeros you can commit suicide. There's no need to go to another continent to a religious organization the Westerosi would regard as infidels. 

She tried, jumping into the water, didn't work. So she had a change of heart, thought she would find a way in the house of the undying, kill herself to for vengeance. This is the red hand mentioned in the waif's backstory, the vengeance. 

Rhaegar's son was her answer, so she did not die. She felt she owed Rhaegar, and pays penance for betraying him. 

Quote

 

Not a cliff, a tower. And which stories deny she jumped?

Which stories are those? Some stories may not mention a baby, but I don't recall any denying she had one (stillborn or otherwise). 

Reread AGOT. 

I don't have the quotes, but the whole purpose of Ashara as the different people hear different things about her. Some say she jumped, others say different things. Some said she had a child, some don't. The first we hear of a stillborn is from Barristan. 

The point is two things. 

1. There is mystery about what happened. 

2. GRRM likes talking about how people have different versions of the same event. 

Or again, just reread AGOT. 

Quote

It's Tyrion's guess. 

Yes, not a random guess. It is an estimate based on their appearance. 

Which is, to say, to give us an idea of what they look like. 

Quote

 

Not only is that not established, it's well known that RHAEGAR'S actions (and the resulting ones of his father) started the war. 

Actually, it was Brandon's. 

Though we can blame Rhaegar as well. Or you could say it was Jon Arryn for not sending Ned/Robert to KL. Instead he called his banners. 

Technically is was Arryn. 

But alas, Ashara blames herself (as she should).

Quote

It doesn't really make sense the way language is normally used. "Looked to me instead of Stark" implies looking in a similar manner, rather than an opposite one. 

This is a well known concept, please search it up. 

He did not wish for Ashara to romance him in this phrase. If it were Brandon that would mean Barristan wished her to be attracted to him instead of Stark. But Barristan is a kingsguard, he can take no wife. And he takes his vows seriously. 

Now reread the passage, Barristan is thinking about how he could stop the war. Had he just won, Lyanna and Rhaegar would never become a problem. 

Who started that problem? Ashara when she looked to Lyanna as a threat to Elia. Elia was too meek to do this herself. 

Quote

But it didn't say "her attention would have been focused on me instead of Stark", it says "looked to". 

What do you supposed "looked to" means? 

That it would be a momentary glance? Come on, use context. 

Quote

No, the text of the Waif's story doesn't mention anything about a tourney. It does mention her father & stepmother, who aren't characters at all in any Harrenhall story we've heard. 

The characters at the tourney, Brandon, Ashara, Rhaegar, Lyanna. 

Again, I have not overviewed the whole thing for you. Please read it as the narration shifts between Ashara and Aegon VI. 

Quote

No one uses the word "ethereal" to describe her. That word occurs nowhere in the series. 

Everyone agrees she was beautiful, with Selmy insisting she was the most beautiful there. 

There are plenty of fans who reference her beauty as being more than common, which is why she stood out so compared to a person like Cersei. 

Lyanna also had a special beauty, hers being "wild". 

Quote

 

Pigs are often considered dirty (enough for eating them to be tabbo under both Judaism & Islam) so reference to them is a common source of derision. Hence parents telling children they eat like a pig, or their room looks like a "pigsty", or even a dirty Peanuts character being named "pigpen". 

Yes, and it was not called a pigsty or pigpen. It was referenced as a SWINEHERD HOVEL.  

Like the Swineherd, who was a secret prince.

Quote

Do we know this "foster mother" ever saw those old clothes in the first place? 

Yes, if she was Ilyrio's wife. 

That is why she reacted as she did, tearing it to pieces. Not what Ilyrio would have wanted. 

Quote

Does that party include Tyrion? Other people's clothes are going to be too large for him. And since he's trying to avoid looking like a well-known dwarf previously at the court of KL, court clothes are less than ideal for him. 

This plan was not known to Ilyrio. 

Quote

 

There are lots of fires, they don't all represent dragon fires. 

SIGH 

PLEASE tell me you are not serious, I worked through the passage to explain how this fire is referenced to as a dragon (snake, lizard, wings, roar of a beast, etc.). 

Please, please, please, please do not say you are serious. 

Quote

 

Biter wasn't creating any fire, instead he was going to be burned by the fire. 

That is because there is no dragon at the gods eye. There are only references to the fire and dragons.  

A hissing massive white lizard fighting against chains. Viserion from the dragontamers chapter.  

Words from the book. 

Quote

 

I "notice" only Olenna, Oberyn merely poisoned Gregor. Neither of them is Jaqen, of course.

To me that makes it less likely that any Martell was plotting to kill Tywin. 

Again, read the quote from George. 

Oberyn did poison Tywin, but he did not do so with Doran's knowledge. He was working with someone else (otherwise he would not commit to such a plan on his own against his brother's will).  

Quote

This is yet another thing that hasn't been established and you are throwing out there without any textual support.

Olenna was working with LF, who has no siblings to be valonqar to!

LF supplied the poison to Dontos and from him to Sansa and then Olenna. Tywin was not killed by poison but by crossbow bolts. 

Again, read the quote from GRRM. 

Quote

 

You have just misinterpreted the prophecy. You yourself quoted GRRM on who killed Joffrey, and it wasn't a valonqar. Myrcella & Tommen are spread apart, so they're unlikely to be killed by the same person (and we know the Tyrells DON'T want to kill Tommen at all). 

He said this is what the observant reader should suspect, but he is making no promises. 

Prophecies work in mysterious, and not always exact ways. 

For example (as you may not know) Myrcella is returning to KL with Tommen. Connington has just promised not to fail YG like he failed Rhaegar by being more like Tywin. 

What did Tywin do? He sacked the city, and killed the two young heirs. 

Connington will do the same, he will have Tommen and Myrcella killed to protect YG's claim, all in the name of Aegon VI (the Valonqar). 

Just because YG is not the real Aegon, does not mean the prophecy is not real (prophecies are what Marwyn said they are). 

Quote

Sigh if you must, but a swineherd and a swine are very different things (even moreso than the pig vs the chicken in the Scrum parable), and your indifference to such distinctions is a big problem with your method of argument. 

My method deals with facts. The connection between the boar killing Robert (the usurper) and Aegon (the swineherd) taking vengeance, is there for anyone to see. 

Quote

I know this is going to be another thing which isn't established but only in your head, but I'll bite: how is he going to die and how to do you know. 

I won't explain, because I want to make this reply chain shorter, not longer. 

But to give you a brief summary, Robert Strong will kill YG (Cersei's vengance for her kids, and Connington's ultimate faliure. GRRM message: don't be like Tywin). 

If you want to know why or how YG loses (in the end), read blind Beth's chapter and pay close attention. 

Quote

He's a busy man travelling all over, and there are too many people who would want Cersei dead. 

Only the Valonqar will kill her. 

You must recognize how often Rhaegar is mentioned in the chapters leading up to the prophecy.  

You do notice that, don't you? And how much Cersei uses the word beautiful to reference him. The most beautiful, more beautiful than anyone else. This is Cersei's standard of beauty. 

Whomever she faces is more beautiful by her standards. Who is younger and more beautiful than Rhaegar, his son. 

The little brother, the Valonqar. He will cast her down and kill her.  

Quote

Beauty IS subjective!

So you are agree with me in caps? Thanks I guess... 

Side note: Beauty is not completely subjective, but that is an argument for a different place.  

PS. To your comment about Dany, she has been a scared girl for fourteen years, as we have only known her for two-three years. 

Three years of regal uncertainty does not discount the majority of her life. This is what is meant by "you must remember". 

Dany takes it to mean she must remember her claim on westeros, but what it really means is she must remember that kind little girl she once was. If she forgets, then great acts of evil can happen with fire and blood. 

But this is all besides the point, Dany finds her strength from her femininity, not from being a tomboy. I think even you with your connection between Sansa and Ygritte (nothing alike) should be able to see that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...