FictionIsntReal Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 On 12/6/2020 at 10:05 PM, butterweedstrover said: I hope, by the end, that you will be convinced and spread the truth among your flock. It is easier to explain something to one person than it is to do the same for a general population. You hope in vain. Even in the extremely unlikely event that you figured out how worthless your supposed "evidence" was and presented something different that could convince me, I have no "flock". Quote I once more I find your denial curious You continually finding things "curious" is evidence of your failure to understand. Think on that a while to figure out where you're going wrong before you slam your head against the wall again with another reply. Quote Once I demonstrated the role of the nightingale, rose, and pigboy in the prologue to AFFC, your reaction should have been congratulatory. In that I have identified something you would have otherwise missed. As I said, you demonstrated nothing. You are deluded to think anyone would react that way. Quote Continuing along, the role of the three apples, the two sphinxes, and the Strider/Aragorn description should have been a coming to grace moment (for yourself). And I have said why I don't find those convincing. Go back and read my objections rather than pointing again to the same "evidence". Quote Finally, the dragon and the fifteen year old maiden should have sealed the deal. Because if two Confederate dollar bills weren't accepted, SURELY the third must be! Rethink your standards of evidence. Quote Instead, there has been nothing but denial on your end. It is curious, very curious. I believe you to be an honest person, and perhaps you initial objective of proving me wrong has colored our interaction. "Curious" only to you, because you continually fail to understand. I don't have to "prove" anything, you are the one with a novel theory you are trying to convince others of. I am pointing out how incredibly weak your arguments are. On the rare ocassion you say something sensible, I give you kudos. But, like I said, that's rare. Quote Nonetheless, I would suggest to not image yourself as a representative of this site I'm not! Quote Do not adjust your mindset for the collective goal of disciplining a new member (to this site) I would be making the same argument regardless of how long you'd been here. The only difference is that you would have gotten used to people telling you how covered in tinfoil your theory is. Quote Nonetheless I retain hope that this communication will end in success. Success does not mean I come to agree with your crank theory. Quote The "thick" mass or "dense" mat is one in the same. One is a verb, and one is a noun. One is used to describe a condition resulting from him being dirty & unwashed, the other is just the normal state. Quote Perhaps inverse is a better word to use? Okay, go back and explain how they are inverses. Any logic used for parallels wouldn't work, and would in fact be evidence against your new take. Quote You must understand what I mean, I have (I hope) explained adequetly. Everytime you hope something, it turns out not to be the case. Your explanations are terrible because you don't seem to have any kind of understanding of a mind that doesn't already accept your theory. Instead you keep proceeding along rickety chains of "evidence" when you haven't even established the first link. Quote Aemon references one of the Sphinxes, the one who is a head of the dragon Aemon said NOTHING about the sphinx being a head of a dragon. Quote Dany is the mother of dragons, not one of the heads. Aemon thought he & Dany should have been two heads of the dragon! Quote He meets both, each going by a false name respectively. Alleras and Pate. No, only one of them is ever called a sphinx. Quote Again we must reference "The Swineherd" by Hans Christian Anderson. No, there is no necessity. GRRM has never cited that story as far as I know. Quote The fairy tale is not called "The Swineherd prince", just "The Swineherd". A swineherd by itself is a common enough concept in European history (as well as multiple other cultures) that you can't assume it's a reference to that specific story. Quote He has a travelers cloak, and watches our characters on shady part of a tavern. As was already said, that's a common enough trope to be meaningless. Repeating the same lines is just going to get the same result. Quote When he meets Pate, he calls his friends the "fellowship". Pate & his friends are in no way analogous to the Fellowship of the Ring. They aren't on a journey anywhere, but instead are staying in school. And scholars within academia are often called... "fellows". Quote If there is an remaining doubt Remaining? You haven't diminished my doubts at all! Quote The Martell sigil is a gold spear striking the center of a red sun. Aemon is not referencing Oberyn's bastard, he is referencing the prince who was promised. You're jumping between different things. WHEN is Aemon referencing whatever you say he's referencing? Quote Thank you for reading, I hope this is enough to help. It hasn't. Please don't hope for a swift end to the pandemic, or it may last forever. Quote My friend, the multi-colored hair was a nod to Dany's romantic partners (future and past). Not Alleras. You are the one who said the multiple colors in his hair were indicative of his Targaryen & Martell ancestry, now you are saying it's something else. Like Humpty Dumpty, words can mean whatever you choose them to mean whenever you feel like it. Quote The reasons for the red and white hair are of Aegon VI's own proclivities, not that if his false identity (Jaqen H'ghar). He stops having that hair when he discards the identity of Jaqen. Quote Red and White have nothing to do with the free city of Lorath. Dyed hair does seem to be more popular in Essos. Quote Did you explain? Go back and reread the thread. I have spent thousands of words on a "theory" worth much less in the way of a response. Quote Honestly I think GRRM was very impressed with himself when he wrote that, he must have been giggling in joy, knowing most people will miss the foreshadowing. I don't think you know jack about what GRRM is thinking ever. Quote 1. Pate and the Swineherd prince. The Nightingale and the Rose I don't agree that has been established, and I gave my reasons earlier. Don't continue on with the list, go back and read what I said when you brought that up before. Quote Pate wants a dragon and a fifteen year old maiden No, he doesn't want the "and" of those two things, he only wants the dragon to exchange for the maiden, at which point he will just have the maiden but not the dragon. I explained this earlier, yet you bring it up again. Quote 3. The Alchemist as Strider, and the fellowship at the tavern I explained that I rejected it again above in this reply. Quote Note there are two given metaphors for the three heads of the dragon. One is the devouring head NO, that is the Shepherd NOT the dragon. Quote the other is the wormed apple. Both are clear references to Arya A "devourer" by itself would not be a clear reference to Arya, rather it should be to someone who consumes a lot. Except that in this case it's devouring the dead (not worms), making it closer to Euron's boast about crows feasting. Quote 6. Arya under the heart tree. She is first awoken under her father's cloak by a dragon's bloom while sleeping by the heart tree. She is pledged to under the heart tree at Harrenhall. fArya is married under the heart tree. And Ned receives news of Arryn's death while under a heart tree, and Sam swears his vows alongside Jon in front of a heart tree, and Ned meets Cersei in front of a heart tree where she confesses her incest, Sansa prays in front of a heart tree where she meets Dontos in secret, etc etc etc. Quote 7. Cersei is obsessed with Rhaegar, like Robert is with Lyanna. No, I don't think so. Cersei's relationship with Jaime was too strong for that. Quote she daydreams about him throughout the course of the entire fourth book Actually, he's only referenced in two out of her 10 chapters. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Rhaegar&scope%5B%5D=affc&povs%5B%5D=Cersei Quote 8. Arbor Gold is lies (this is established), urine is truth. You proclaiming something is established doesn't make it so. Quote The Pisswater prince was traded for Arbor Gold. The truth was traded for lies. You must agree with this, correct? I have already said I do not. Get it through your thick skull. There was nothing "true" about the "pisswater prince": either the real Aegon VI had his skull crushed and there was no such swap, or some kid from Fleabottom did. Quote 9. The Swineherd prince is well established, as is the role of swine in the story. Again, you are not Lewis Carroll's Bellman, and you cannot prove things by assertion. Quote A boar kills Robert, and the place from which Aegon lived is referenced to as a Swineherd Hovel. A swineherd and a swine are very different things. Thing about that before repeating yourself. Quote The red hand. It is mentioned in the Waif's backstory As a house of healers. Don't try to treat it as something else in this story just because the phrase was used differently in a different story. Quote In that play, the stranger is the true killer. No, Tyrion is. Quote The red right hand is the hand of vengeance. In a different story. Quote 12. Arya is a clear and obvious parallel to Lyanna. She has some parallels. Quote 13. One of the themes of the series is history repeating itself. Sometimes it repeats, but other times (as with the war of the five kings) it doesn't. Quote Arya calls Jaqen a king. NO SHE DOESN'T, AS HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU. STOP REPEATING THINGS WHEN WE'VE ALREADY TOLD YOU WHY YOU'RE WRONG. Quote Which of the above is an 'assumption'? Are they all not well established No, they are not! You have already been told as much before! How can the rejection of your "evidence" be news or a surprise to you!? Quote I am also curious, if you do reject any of these established points, what to you think the general impression of the fandom (on this site) would be? Would they reject such basic observations so easily? I do reject your points, and I don't think the rest of the fandom would give you the respect of reading all the words you've wasted on your crackpot theory. Quote He speaks of his bloodline and the three heads, then tells Sam the Sphinx is the riddle. He is not referencing Oberyn's bastard, but his own bloodline. He didn't say anything about the sphinx being connected to his bloodline, and nobody refers to any incarnation of Jaqen as a sphinx. Quote The three heads of the Shepherd are used as a reference to the three heads of the dragon, otherwise they would not exist. The rule of threes is too common for that. Even in religion, there is the Christian trinity and the Hindu trimurti. The Shepherd seems closer to the latter, with the "devourer" being like Shiva and new life coming from Brahma. Aegon and his sisters were not gods, but mortals. Quote I believe I have done so quite effectively. Your beliefs are, as usual, laughable. Quote Related in so far as they are cellmates. That's not at all like being related to your mother. Quote Yes, and for when it was introduced, it served its purpose. He as the author can choose to utilize it further if he so wishes (which he did). If he chose to make membership in the Bloody Mummers indicate something, then it should indicate that for all members. Otherwise you are just being selective about evidence depending on whether it supports your theory or not. Quote Once the mask is worn, the FM are suppose to embody that person, not show glib smiles or play the role of a mummer. Arya LITERALLY plays the role of a mummer named "Mercy" after she joins the FM! Quote Weasel. Arry. Arya.” The comparison is with Arya, who makes up fake names, not a person with a real identity. Arya didn't "make up" the name Weasel, she took it from someone she met (who was actually nicknamed by Lommy, and had matted hair from dirt). You even noted her doing that again when she first joined the FM! Quote A wonder how you do not find this as evidence The world is eternally a wondrous place to you, because your expectations are wrong all the time. Quote you however retain a general disposition against anything and everything I have said I have a generally argumentative disposition, and you have an astonishing ability to generate nonsense and fail to learn from your mistakes. Quote The Lorathi have their own oaths, and he would offer one to Arya if she asked Why would ARYA want a Lorathi oath? She's a Westerosi. Lorathi "refinement" isn't a mark of nobility to her, it's just weird. Quote And if he were to give an oath under the Heart tree, he would speak in his own manner. His personality does not change to fit the whims of one girl. The speech patterns of a place are not the same as a "personality". And if you were speaking to someone who didn't understand your language, wouldn't you try to speak theirs? Quote Now I must ask, since you (unlike pretty much everyone else) find nothing of note in this line, I must ask an outrageous question: Are you adjusting your opinions to my posts alone whereas towards others you would respect their findings? Try asking some other people at this site whether I only argue with you. Ask "Lord Varys" if I defer to people who've been here longer than me. I heap particular derision on your arguments, because your arguments are poorer than Lord Varys' usually are. Quote Do you not even smile at the reference? No, I don't even consider it to be a reference at all. Quote They are the POV characters No, only Pate gets the POV of that prologue, and like other Prologue/Epilogue characters, he dies at the end. NONE of the other characters get any POV chapters at all. Quote Again, clear and obvious. Again, you have no idea what makes evidence either clear or obvious. Quote The apple is first thrown when Alleras says "the dragon has three heads". The trios is not just three objects, but three heads of the same beast. Alleras can say that, but it doesn't actually make the apples into metaphors. Your own reasoning for what each one represents was inconsistent in between apples. Quote I wonder many times if you withhold this type of hyper specification just for me, or is this just your general disposition? It's my general disposition! God is in the leaf of every tree! Quote I am not asking for pity, but it is disheartening at times and I ask you not to see me as your enemy. I don't see you as my enemy, I see you as annoying and ridiculous. Quote However, in the story being told, the usage of metaphors are clear and obvious. Clear and obvious only to you, which is why your theory is still a fringe one. Quote Again, him sending things of sentimentality does only to be destroyed shows a difference of intent. I would characterize it in terms of construal level theory. Illyrio is Far, the people aboard the Shy Maid are Near. Quote the mother (or foster mother) does not recall her own child's clothing We don't even know if Lemore was at Illyrio's manse when YG wore those clothes. Quote Please read the waif's backstory for mention of the red hand. It's a house of healing (like the Red Cross, which is a Red Crescent in some countries), not a symbol of vengeance. Quote Again this is him swearing an oath under a heart tree, much like Lyanna and Rhaegar did at Harrenhall. That's not in the text, you are just making stuff up again! Quote Notice she wants to free the men of her house, just as Lyanna defended Howland, her "father's man". One asking someone else for help is completely different from another doing it herself. Rhaegar didn't do anything to help Howland! Quote 1. A man: Aerys dies in KL 2. A woman: Elia dies in KL HAHAHAHAHAHA! He says it as generically as possible and you have to twist it into something the text doesn't specify. Even if it was at KL, which is not supported by the text, there are a lot more people who died! Quote 3. A little baby: Ashara's baby, the one killed in the sack of KL No one in the series claims that, instead Barristan said she had a stillborn daughter. You have already been told this, quit bringing up your tinfoil theories we reject as if they were established facts. Quote 4. Lord Tywin: the perpetrator, he dies in Kingslanding as well. He's still alive, unlike all those other people mentioned. Importantly, because there would be no point in Jaqen killing people who are already dead! Quote The last mention is a High Septon, this is a reference to the high sparrow who has Cersei locked away (he like Tywin is a perpatrator). Why is it a reference to the High Sparrow? Consistency with your other examples (which I reject, but we can set that aside for now) should imply it applies to the current High Septon, appointed by Tyrion, who will be murdered on Cersei's orders. And how is the High Sparrow a "perpetrator"? Quote Your father is Rhaegar Arya didn't say that! Quote Jaqen says he could kill a king and whispers "Is it Joffrey?" Arya then whispers his name. Joffrey is mentioned in a whisper, as is Jaqen. Both are kings. No they're not, Jaqen has never been crowned. Even if I accepted your crackpot theory that he's Aegon VI (which I don't), Viserys was named heir ahead of him. And Arya mentions a king just after she'd give a High Septon & Jaqen's father as other examples. They are all tests of his willingness to fulfill his promise of deaths, she is not accusing him of being a High Septon or his own father. Quote She does not say "go kill yourself", she references his name in question of a king. The name is required, which is why if his father was alive she would need to know his name in order for Jaqen to kill him. Quote A product of colorful personalities. Not the like of Jon Snow. The warlocks have blue lips from drinking shade of the evening (and capturing them & their drink is how Euron gets it), it doesn't mean they have colorful personalities. Quote She would be. More of your imagining things. Quote she stood up to Joffrey About Tommen crying? That's nothing compared even to Sansa preventing Dontos from being executed. Quote What other theories or people are we talking about? I'm talking about all the people who predicted Jon Snow & Dany would hook up together. Quote even though his Targaryen name in the books is "Aemon". That's not in the text! Stop making things up! Quote Azor Ahai reborn, it's a loop. He is Azor Ahai, and vice versa. They both come from each other. The third head of the Great Shepherd does not come from itself, instead the dead are reborn through it. Quote he does not plan to steal a book from the citadel for the Facelessmen, something that doesn't fit their MO I don't think you actually know their MO. Quote He was born with that promise, and he must live up to it. Who was the promise made to? Who is going to hold him to this promise? And isn't "promises" plural? Quote She tried, jumping into the water, didn't work Crossing the sea to another continent isn't the only remaining way to kill yourself. Quote So she had a change of heart And decided not to kill herself? Quote kill herself to for vengeance How does one kill one's self for "vengeance"? Is it revenge against yourself? Quote This is the red hand mentioned in the waif's backstory, the vengeance. No, she said the red hand was a house of healers. Quote Rhaegar's son was her answer Her answer to what? Quote She felt she owed Rhaegar, and pays penance for betraying him How did she betray him? We don't actually have text of them interacting at all. I've got a theory of something relevant she did that she might feel guilty about, but that's an example of attempting to use parsimony to explain some things we already know from the text rather than constructing a castle built of assumptions in the clouds. Quote I don't have the quotes Ha! You don't have the quotes because the text doesn't support your argument. Come back with quotes or I'll continue laughing at you. Quote Some say she jumped, others say different things. Some said she had a child, some don't No one outright denies either of those things, even if they neglect to say one way or another. Quote Yes, not a random guess. It is an estimate based on their appearance. Which is, to say, to give us an idea of what they look like. Yes, it's an idea: Tyrion's. Quote Actually, it was Brandon's. Brandon wasn't the one who took Lyanna. Quote But alas, Ashara blames herself (as she should). WHY!? Quote This is a well known concept, please search it up. What is a well-known concept? What should I be searching for? Quote Who started that problem? Ashara when she looked to Lyanna as a threat to Elia. Elia was too meek to do this herself. How did Ashara cause Rhaegar to crown Lyanna!? Quote What do you supposed "looked to" means? It is common to look to someone for support. In contrast, a threat you might eye warily, or be on the lookout for. Quote Please read it as the narration shifts between Ashara and Aegon VI. Why would I read it that way? The text doesn't suggest that at all. Quote There are plenty of fans who reference her beauty as being more than common She is said to be unusually beautiful IN THE TEXT. I don't care what fans say. Quote Yes, if she was Ilyrio's wife. We don't know that, and she doesn't even look like the picture Illyrio shows Tyrion. Quote That is why she reacted as she did, tearing it to pieces. Why would recognizing the clothes CAUSE her to cut them up? Quote PLEASE tell me you are not serious [...] Please, please, please, please do not say you are serious. I am serious, I am serious, I am serious. I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Quote A hissing massive white lizard fighting against chains. Viserion from the dragontamers chapter. If Biter represents Viserion and Arya represents Quentyn in Meereen (rather than Arya in KL, as you were saying earlier), then shouldn't Arya have been burned up? And shouldn't it be Arya's actions which spark the fire in the first place? Quote Again, read the quote from George. He said Olenna poisoned Joffrey, he didn't say supporting your crackpot theory of Jaqen's involvement. Quote Oberyn did poison Tywin GRRM didn't say that. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, and nobody in the books has ever referred to him as having been poisoned. Quote He was working with someone else (otherwise he would not commit to such a plan on his own against his brother's will). He didn't commit to such a plan, as it didn't happen. Quote Connington will do the same, he will have Tommen and Myrcella killed to protect YG's claim, all in the name of Aegon VI (the Valonqar). That won't be the valonqar killing them, that will be Jon Connington. I said earlier that YG won't need to personally kill Cersei because he has people beneath him who can handle that sort of thing. Quote Just because YG is not the real Aegon, does not mean the prophecy is not real (prophecies are what Marwyn said they are). The prophecy never even said WHO will kill Cersei's children, you are just misinterpreting it! You haven't learned the lesson Marwyn imparted about prophecy at all! Quote My method deals with facts. You get the facts wrong repeatedly. Quote The connection between the boar killing Robert (the usurper) and Aegon (the swineherd) taking vengeance, is there for anyone to see. Nobody sees it but you. How did Aegon cause the boar to kill Robert!? Is Cersei secretly Aegon!? And, of course, Aegon is never actually called a swineherd in the text. Quote But to give you a brief summary, Robert Strong will kill YG (Cersei's vengance for her kids, and Connington's ultimate faliure. GRRM message: don't be like Tywin). I actually do think that outcome is plausible. The reasoning is that Robert Strong exists to crush Cersei's enemies, and YG is an enemy of hers. It will also mean that Gregor has twice killed "Aegon" thanks to resurrection from the dead, while earlier he was able to kill Beric twice due to the latter's resurrection. Quote You must recognize how often Rhaegar is mentioned in the chapters leading up to the prophecy. Like I said, only 2 out of her 10 chapters. Quote Who is younger and more beautiful than Rhaegar, his son. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 18 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Is this thread officially derailed? Thanks. Ignore it. Got the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: You hope in vain. Even in the extremely unlikely event that you figured out how worthless your supposed "evidence" was and presented something different that could convince me, I have no "flock". There is much evidence I have barely touched upon, but that matters not. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: One is a verb, and one is a noun. One is used to describe a condition resulting from him being dirty & unwashed, the other is just the normal state. Dense and Thick hair are the same thing. Unwashed hair is greasy which gives it a damp quality, just like recently bathed hairr. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Okay, go back and explain how they are inverses. Any logic used for parallels wouldn't work, and would in fact be evidence against your new take. Chains, they are both in chains. Tankards, in one chapter they are full, in the other they are empty. The allusion to a monkey/ape from the summer isles. Jaqen is in chains against his will, and Alleras is celebrating his chains. Once freedom is gained for the former, there are descriptive qualities each share. Both smile all the time. Serving women dote on them, they both bath (notice Jaqen frequently asks for a bath, and Alleras is noted for his propensity to bath). They are both at the citadel, where two Sphinxes stand guard. A male and a female. There are two Sphinxes at the citadel. Alleras is called as such for being of mix race. A bit of this and a bit of that. Aegon is as well, he is half-dornish. One is male, one is female. Aemon was speaking on dragons, not Oberyn's bastard. So you see, when he said: The Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler, he means the Sphinx is the one who most be discovered. Their name, their true name. This is the mystery head of the trios. Do you believe Aemon was speaking about Alleras? I imagine you were confused reading this line same as me, which is why no desirable answer showed itself. But when you step and look at the big picture, the answer becomes obvious, the valonqar, Dany's future lover, the mystery head of the trios, YG and connington, it is all there. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Aemon said NOTHING about the sphinx being a head of a dragon. Aemon is speaking about dragons, but again I never said Sphinx=Dragon. Alleras is a sphinx, he she is not a dragon. Aemon is interested in dragons, that is of what he spoke. Of his blood line. The answers are in the text. The Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. This passage has confused people for quite some time, but I hope I have unraveled the mystery for you. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Aemon thought he & Dany should have been two heads of the dragon! But then he said he is too old. He was only speaking of Targaryen blood, he does not know Jon is Rhaegar's son. That answer is in the citadel archives. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, only one of them is ever called a sphinx. I have explained why Alleras is called the Sphinx. She is of mixed blood, and has different colors. Just as Aegon has two hair colors and is half dornish, half Targaryen. We know there are two Sphinxes, Sam sees them before he enters the citadel. He is also introduced to both under false names. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, there is no necessity. GRRM has never cited that story as far as I know. But you see, the reference is clear and obvious. The pig boy, the nightingale, and the Rose. You seem to have a difficult time with this so let me rephrase. The swineherd had two most valued items, a nightingale and a rose. Pate the pig boy grants the nightingale as more beautiful than the bells, and Rosey as more beautiful than all the other girls. The pigboy, the rose, and the nightingale. You say it is not established, but it is. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: A swineherd by itself is a common enough concept in European history (as well as multiple other cultures) that you can't assume it's a reference to that specific story. As above so below. The reference is beyond question. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: As was already said, that's a common enough trope to be meaningless. Repeating the same lines is just going to get the same result. The type of cloak he wears is the same as Strider. They are both strangers in a tavern, watching from a shady seat. GRRM knows how much his work is compared to Tolkien, but his king (Aegon VI) is very different from Tolkien's king (Aragorn). They both have different fates, whereas Aragorn returns to take the crown, Aegon will try and fail. Instead Bran will become king. But here is one more thing. We already have one reference to a secret prince, the second one becomes clear once the first is established (which it has been). 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Pate & his friends are in no way analogous to the Fellowship of the Ring. They aren't on a journey anywhere, but instead are staying in school. And scholars within academia are often called... "fellows". In ASOIAF? Pate is the POV, and we see things from their perspectives. When the alchemist shows up, he has been watching Pate and his friends. The title of fellowship is a wink and a nod, despite them having a somewhat antagonistic relationship (Pate stays behind with Leo where they almost get into a fight. The Alchemist sees all this). This is also the group Samwell Tarly meets up with (Pate, Alleras, and Leo specifically). Samwell was inspired by Samwise from LOTR. Samwise was also one of the members at the prancing pony. Here is a picture of what he would look like (minus the pipe). 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Remaining? You haven't diminished my doubts at all! I believe I have, if you search your heart. For example, you still claim the Swineherd is not a clear and obvious reference, but it is. You argued before that Pate was not a real pig boy, he was only called that. Rosey is also not a real rose, she is only called that. But this arguments hold no weight, and I think you know that. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: You're jumping between different things. WHEN is Aemon referencing whatever you say he's referencing? It is quite simple, do you believe he is referencing Oberyn's bastard? If so, why? It seems difficult to believe. But in Sam's chapter, we are told there are two Sphinxes waiting inside, a male and a female. Sam is introduced to both. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: You are the one who said the multiple colors in his hair were indicative of his Targaryen & Martell ancestry, now you are saying it's something else. Like Humpty Dumpty, words can mean whatever you choose them to mean whenever you feel like it. No, for Aegon the red symbolizes his Dornish blood, and the White is the hair of his father. This image also fits Daenerys romantic inclinations. A charming rogue with dyed hair. Do you see the connection between him and Daario, both are killers. This was all deliberate on GRRM part. Daario was introduced after ACOK. Jon was not made to attract Dany, and vice versa. Jon prefers women like Ygritte and Arya (not Sansa or Myrcella). He says as such when Robb first meets the queen's daughter, and later in ADWD. Dany is a regal queen. For most of her life she was a passive girl, and now she is a brave queen. None of this is to say she would attract Jon or vice versa. I wrote a post about this on the last page. This again was deliberate. There is nothing in the text to align the two together. The "love" spoken about in the house of the undying was someone altogether different. This is the Valonqar, or the Sphinx if you will. In the show they changed Jon to "Aegon". They had him turn into a unconvincing partner to Dany, but they could not set up a love triangle between him and Arya (for obvious reasons). The show cut the Sphinx and the Valonqar (that is why they were not mentioned. Again, if the Valonqar was Jaime, the prophecy would have remained as is). 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: He stops having that hair when he discards the identity of Jaqen. He is only changing faces, he can revert back to his true face whenever. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Dyed hair does seem to be more popular in Essos. So? It fits then that Aegon VI spent most of his time growing up in Essos. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Go back and reread the thread. I have spent thousands of words on a "theory" worth much less in the way of a response. Not in a satisfying way. I will enumerate why when I get to each complaint. But here is a sample: Lemore and YG destroying/ignoring memorabilia sent to them is completely normal. Maggy had no reason for changing languages for just one word (besides brevity which makes no sense). Pate isn't a real pig boy so there is no reference to the swineherd. The usage of piss and arbor gold in a backstory has no connection to established symbolism. The reborn head has nothing to do with the three heads of the dragon. Rhaegar STOLE Lyanna but Thief isn't the proper usage of terms (it is and it is ridiculous you argue this point). Among other things. If you give fair complaints, then I try to expand upon an explanation. However, tackling the above is more difficult bescause it bellies a claim that needs stating. Why indeed are any of these legitimate complaints, because rather than engaging with the issue, it tries to claim that there is none there at all. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, he doesn't want the "and" of those two things, he only wants the dragon to exchange for the maiden, at which point he will just have the maiden but not the dragon. I explained this earlier, yet you bring it up again. Yes, he wants a dragon and a girl. He wants a dragon for the girl. He still wants the girl even as he wants the dragon. Therefore he wants the dragon and the girl. He wants both of these things. Rhaegar wanted the fifteen year old maiden and the dragon. You could say he wanted the girl for the dragon, but he wanted both (also he was love-struck so I imagine he wanted Lyanna for who she was). He ran off with the girl, just as Pate wishes to run off with Rosey. There is a reason there is a motif about dragons in that prologue. They are mentioned again and again, and the gold is always referenced to as a dragon. "Do you have my dragon?" "Is the girl worth a dragon?" These choice of phrase are littered throughout the entire prologue. These references are simple and obvious. Leo even says he will go on to "herd swine". And finally we reach the line about the thief. So we have two references in this chapter about a hidden prince. Rhaegar was also a prince, and Pate is much like him. They are both thieves "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" "I am no thief". This is how the statement was ordered. Both Rhaegar and Pate are thieves, but they deny it at first. When an answer is banging itself right in front of you, you ought to see it. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: NO, that is the Shepherd NOT the dragon. No, it is a reference to the three heads of the dragon, that should be obvious. Each one is describe to the point. The devouring head, the reborn head, and the mystery head. Arya is the devourer of worms. Worms devour the dead from the inside. Worms are related to dragons. Not just from Nennius, but also from the stories told by the kindly man about the fire wyrms. Azor Ahai reborn, Jon snow. The mystery head, the Sphinx. The Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. He is the mystery meant to be solved. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: A "devourer" by itself would not be a clear reference to Arya, rather it should be to someone who consumes a lot. Except that in this case it's devouring the dead (not worms), making it closer to Euron's boast about crows feasting. There is the devourer, and the wormed apple. Both were references to the three heads of the dragon. Alleras shoots three apples, before he starts he says the dragon has three heads. Arya not only eats wormed apples, but she also enjoys the tastes of worms. She eats the worm from the kindly man's eyes. This is repeated throughout the entire series, you probably missed it, but it is very obvious. I have shown it to you, for which I expect you are thankful. The credit involved here should make you consider the plausibility, or at least decrease the level of disbelief you have managed to uphold. Arya is also caught in the middle of dragon fire at the gods eye (metaphorically), and she is to be married to a dragon like Lyanna was. But staying on the reference of devouring, crows are not referred to as dragons, only worms are worms. Crows feast on leftovers, the worm devours the the dying. Since before Nennius, worms are related to dragons. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: And Ned receives news of Arryn's death while under a heart tree, and Sam swears his vows alongside Jon in front of a heart tree, and Ned meets Cersei in front of a heart tree where she confesses her incest, Sansa prays in front of a heart tree where she meets Dontos in secret, etc etc etc. Receiving news of someone's death has nothing to do with marriage, or a bonding, but a funeral. Swearing vows (along with many others) to an organization is different. And what does Ned confronting Cersei have to with bonding? Arya has three examples. Coming out from under her father's cloak, being pledged to by a man, and the marriage between fArya and Ramsay. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, I don't think so. Cersei's relationship with Jaime was too strong for that. Well, the story is much the same. She would have chosen Rhaegar over Jaime, she said as such. Rhaegar remained in her mind after all these years, and she still dwells on him. That is why she always hated Robert, and it why she wore black with studded rubies after his death. Just like Lyanna remained on Robert's mind so many years later. Robert was to marry Lyanna, and Cersei was to marry Rhaegar. Instead Rhaegar married Lyanna, and Robert/Cersei were stuck with one another. You see how the four of them are tied in the same fate. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Actually, he's only referenced in two out of her 10 chapters.https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Rhaegar&scope[]=affc&povs[]=Cersei According to your own link, he was referenced in five chapters, not two. Please read your own link. But besides, I have already shown you the depth of her recollections, and how he was the most beautiful man ever to her (which goes back to the Valonqar, for beauty is subjective). There is more too, but I literally dissected full pages of references for you so I don't need to do again. That was one of the things I worked hard to produce, so I hope you read it well. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I have already said I do not. Get it through your thick skull. There was nothing "true" about the "pisswater prince": either the real Aegon VI had his skull crushed and there was no such swap, or some kid from Fleabottom did. The story was false, something told to YG at a young age (and Connington). Varys and Ilyrio lie a lot. However the story is interesting, because it is written to present the truth. As is the case with backstories like this. The arbor gold is a reference to lies, this is established in the books. It is not the same as some just drinking arbor gold at random, because it is a device of the story. As is the pisswater prince. This is not the first time urine and arbor gold are compared to one another. So you must find it interesting both are used in this same story. The pisswater prince was traded for arbor gold. The tanner had other sons (reference to young griff, Ilyrio's true son) so he gave away this one. Also, Tanners skin animals, YG is given the false sigil of another house, the animal of a house that is not his. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: As a house of healers. Don't try to treat it as something else in this story just because the phrase was used differently in a different story. Yes, look at the usage in the story. House Dayne is said to be the oldest house, they are the ancient house. Start with the noble father (Rhaegar is referenced to as noble). Go from there. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, Tyrion is. Let's look at Mercy's chapter: "On stage, Bobono was bargaining with Marro’s sinister Stranger. He had a big voice for such a little man, and he made it ring off the highest rafters now. “Give me the cup,” he told the Stranger, “for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion’s blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.” The Stranger is the one who provides the poison. This the alchemist (or Valonqar) who calls himself the stranger. He provides the poison to Olenna and Oberyn. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: In a different story. Famously, outside the story. But Paradise lost is also where the seven folded rage comes from, as reference to the seven gods of his father. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: She has some parallels. I am establishing something. Her first name is Arya horseface, Lyanna was the horse girl. And Ned tells Arya she will marry a king after the passage under the heart tree and the red dragon bloom. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Sometimes it repeats, but other times (as with the war of the five kings) it doesn't. I am establishing themes, a theme is not always present in every passage. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: NO SHE DOESN'T, AS HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU. STOP REPEATING THINGS WHEN WE'VE ALREADY TOLD YOU WHY YOU'RE WRONG. SIGH Jaqen asks her to name a king, and she names Jaqen. This was not intentional, but it is what it is. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, they are not! You have already been told as much before! How can the rejection of your "evidence" be news or a surprise to you!? They were and they are. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: The rule of threes is too common for that. Even in religion, there is the Christian trinity and the Hindu trimurti. The Shepherd seems closer to the latter, with the "devourer" being like Shiva and new life coming from Brahma. Aegon and his sisters were not gods, but mortals. In ASOIAF, there are many allusions and foreshadowing to the three heads of the dragon. The trios like the apples is an example of this. It is not some living breathing religion to the side, it is a creation of GRRM. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: That's not at all like being related to your mother. We are talking about people ancillary to them who are referenced in their introduction. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: If he chose to make membership in the Bloody Mummers indicate something, then it should indicate that for all members. Otherwise you are just being selective about evidence depending on whether it supports your theory or not. No, because this is important for one character. Say I use an object to allude to something, not everyone else who uses that object is subject to that allusion. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Arya LITERALLY plays the role of a mummer named "Mercy" after she joins the FM! Mercy plays the role of a mummer, that is her character. The FM do not, they play the role of whatever identity is available to them. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Arya didn't "make up" the name Weasel, she took it from someone she met (who was actually nicknamed by Lommy, and had matted hair from dirt). You even noted her doing that again when she first joined the FM! She is not Weasel, she is not claiming to be Weasel, using a name is not the same thing as using an identity. Arry is not an identity either. Arya is her only true identity, a name among others. That is why Jaqen says a girl has many names. Just like he says earlier, "a man must have a name". Jaqen is not real, but it is one of his names. But behind all this, him like Arya has a real name. The other names are not separate identities of other real people. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Why would ARYA want a Lorathi oath? She's a Westerosi. Lorathi "refinement" isn't a mark of nobility to her, it's just weird. This is a terrible argument. The old gods are not only prayed to by those who speak the common tongue. He breaks with his speech pattern when swearing to Arya (under the heart tree) and again you claim this is totally normal. That there is nothing to see. A concoction of your own stubbornness. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: The speech patterns of a place are not the same as a "personality". And if you were speaking to someone who didn't understand your language, wouldn't you try to speak theirs? Arya does understand what he saying, he doesn't need to change anything. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Try asking some other people at this site whether I only argue with you. Ask "Lord Varys" if I defer to people who've been here longer than me. I heap particular derision on your arguments, because your arguments are poorer than Lord Varys' usually are. I am demonstrating the truth for you to see, it is all very obvious and very true. Like I have demonstrated Arya as the eater of worms, and the wormed apple. Something you did not recognize until our first interaction. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, only Pate gets the POV of that prologue, and like other Prologue/Epilogue characters, he dies at the end. NONE of the other characters get any POV chapters at all. Pate is the POV, but him and his fellowship are the perspective we are see, it is their conversation and there actions. We do not see what other people at the Tavern are doing, because this is our main group. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Alleras can say that, but it doesn't actually make the apples into metaphors. Your own reasoning for what each one represents was inconsistent in between apples. Why, it is incredibly obvious. We are told specifically the arrows are gold, and the apples are red. The shape of the arrow is like a spear, and the apple is like the sun. He (she) cored the center of the red apple with the gold apple. The martell sigil is a gold spear piercing the center of a red sun. In fact it's not a spear crossed with a sun, it is specifically drawn to show the spear through the center. Just as we are told Alleras cored the apple at the center. The wormed apple is Arya. I have more than explained why. And the missed apple is Jon (missed at birth, he is the bastard. Aegon and Arya are not bastards). What is contradictory, what is not obvious? 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I don't see you as my enemy, I see you as annoying and ridiculous. It's hard for me to believe you when I have certainly highlighted things you missed. The worms and Arya. The fire at the gods eye and the dragon. etc. Things before hand you didn't know, and know you know. The Swineherd included. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I would characterize it in terms of construal level theory. Illyrio is Far, the people aboard the Shy Maid are Near. This isn't some plan, he does not send the ginger or the clothes as part of a plan. They are memories he sends to his family. If he wanted them destroyed or ignored, he could have done that himself. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: We don't even know if Lemore was at Illyrio's manse when YG wore those clothes. YG never wore those clothes, that is the point. Otherwise she would mention it, not destroy it. Aegon wore those clothes. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: It's a house of healing (like the Red Cross, which is a Red Crescent in some countries), not a symbol of vengeance. The healers were messengers in this story, which brought the father to ask for revenge. They are the deliverers of vengeance. Whatever, I will over view the story somewhere in this reply. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: That's not in the text, you are just making stuff up again! This happened in the show. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: One asking someone else for help is completely different from another doing it herself. Rhaegar didn't do anything to help Howland! The motives behind Lyanna and Arya is what we look towards, not how things turned out 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: HAHAHAHAHAHA! He says it as generically as possible and you have to twist it into something the text doesn't specify. Even if it was at KL, which is not supported by the text, there are a lot more people who died! He doesn't say that, Arya does. It's not a prophecy, it is just a clue. Arya asked if she could become a high speton, that is probably why she mentioned one. But as goes the story... 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No one in the series claims that, instead Barristan said she had a stillborn daughter. You have already been told this, quit bringing up your tinfoil theories we reject as if they were established facts. Barristan is the first person we hear this from, and it makes perfect sense. Ashara could not hide her pregnancy, but if the baby was taken away then to remove any doubt it must have been said to be stillborn. Barristan was a kingsguard near the royal family, so he knew of this side of the story. Others said she tried to kill herself because of her dead brother, other stories say she never jumped at all. Please reread AGOT, we are told different accounts of her story. The fifth book is the first time we hear about a stillborn. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: He's still alive, unlike all those other people mentioned. Importantly, because there would be no point in Jaqen killing people who are already dead! Perpetrator for what happened during the sack when those people died. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Why is it a reference to the High Sparrow? Consistency with your other examples (which I reject, but we can set that aside for now) should imply it applies to the current High Septon, appointed by Tyrion, who will be murdered on Cersei's orders. And how is the High Sparrow a "perpetrator"? More likely it is because Arya asked if she could become a high septon, and she is the one listing these names. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Arya didn't say that! Of course not, this is what I am saying. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No they're not, Jaqen has never been crowned. Even if I accepted your crackpot theory that he's Aegon VI (which I don't), Viserys was named heir ahead of him. And Arya mentions a king just after she'd give a High Septon & Jaqen's father as other examples. They are all tests of his willingness to fulfill his promise of deaths, she is not accusing him of being a High Septon or his own father. If Aegon VI was heir to the throne. Viserys is dead at this moment. But regardless, Aegon sees himself as the rightful king, and in many ways he should be. He has better rights than Dany, and if Aegon was never presumed dead then Viserys would not have a claim either. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: The warlocks have blue lips from drinking shade of the evening (and capturing them & their drink is how Euron gets it), it doesn't mean they have colorful personalities. Yes well, Euron does. Whether the warlocks do, you better ask them. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: About Tommen crying? That's nothing compared even to Sansa preventing Dontos from being executed. Myrcella does not cry when she is taken away from her family. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I'm talking about all the people who predicted Jon Snow & Dany would hook up together. There is little evidence that such a pair would work (as I say so above). The show changed Jon to Aegon and removed the Valonqar to keep fan favorites front and center. It is why there romance didn't work. Also it is why the love triangle wasn't able to be implemented. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: That's not in the text! Stop making things up! It actually is. Rhaegar did not name a second son Aegon. In the show Gilly wants to name her child Jon. In the books she wanted to name Mance's son after Aemon. These names are the same, and the scenes are taken from the same source material. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I don't think you actually know their MO. According to the Kindly man, they are not covert operatives hoping to steal a book on dragons. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Who was the promise made to? Who is going to hold him to this promise? And isn't "promises" plural? He has promises to keep, like killing Balon. But as he said, promises, more than one. Not just to kill Balon, but also to hatch the dragon egg and fulfill his destiny. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Crossing the sea to another continent isn't the only remaining way to kill yourself. Yeah, but to kill yourself and gain vengeance. Her life as payment for the gift. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: And decided not to kill herself? the waif: "I did not die", but she suffered worse. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: How does one kill one's self for "vengeance"? Is it revenge against yourself? In that you give your life so the gift can be given to someone else. In the HoBaW, you can give your own life as payment for a contract. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Her answer to what? Her hope for vengeance, he is the red right hand. Against the people that destroyed Rhaegar's family. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: How did she betray him? We don't actually have text of them interacting at all. I've got a theory of something relevant she did that she might feel guilty about, but that's an example of attempting to use parsimony to explain some things we already know from the text rather than constructing a castle built of assumptions in the clouds. Remember the line, she looked to Stark? She was the one that wanted to split Lyanna from Rhaegar, so she thought using Brandon would be the easiest way. This however was not meant to lead to a war. She, like her brother, still serviced Rhaegar, she only was thinking what would be best for Elia. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: WHY!? Self-guilt most likely. As to why she should blame herself... it is because she wouldn't be able to find peace with herself otherwise. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: What is a well-known concept? What should I be searching for? Whatever was being referred to in the reply. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: How did Ashara cause Rhaegar to crown Lyanna!? She didn't, Barristan did. If he had unhorsed Rhaegar, the prince could never have crowned Lyanna in the first place. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: It is common to look to someone for support. In contrast, a threat you might eye warily, or be on the lookout for. Look to, yes that is true. In fact she did look to Brandon to try and get him to split Lyanna from Rhaegar. Ashara did this for Elia's sake. She didn't know it would lead to Brandon's death, or a war that kills Rhaegar and his family. That is part of the reason why she has poisoned herself such as she has. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Why would I read it that way? The text doesn't suggest that at all. It does. The waif says she is tell part mistruth and part lie. Then Arya ends by asking was the whole thing a lie. The best lies have bits of truth in them. Here is the quote: She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. “I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift.” Arya considered her warily. “Is that true?” “There is truth in it.” “And lies as well?” “There is an untruth, and an exaggeration.” She had been watching the waif’s face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs. “The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father’s wealth, not all.” “Just so. That was my exaggeration.” The ancient house is house Dayne, the noble father is Rhaegar. Aegon's mother died when he was little, he has no memory of her. He is the sixth in his name when his father wed Lyanna. Ashara was the one that sought to poison the well, so Lyanna and Rhaegar would not have their own child. It left her as you see her now, but she did not die. The Red Hands means vengeance, so she was given in exchange for that vengeance. However one more thing was given for the sake of vengeance. Rhaegar's (the father) wealth. These are his sons who would uphold the vengeance or memory that Ashara was give for. Arya asks if it was 2/3 of her father's wealth, and the waif says yes. Rhaenys is dead so only 2/3 of his children are still alive to fulfill the payment. "There is truth in it". So the story is not the truth, it is a version of the truth. If you believe this story is the whole story, then you come up against the waif's own addendum. If you believe the 2/3 was the only lie, then you should tell that the waif is lying again. Arya asks: “What part was the lie?” “No part. I lied about the lie.” “Did you? Or are you lying now?” The kindly man interrupts before the truth could be figured out. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: She is said to be unusually beautiful IN THE TEXT. I don't care what fans say. It is the general interpretation. I will find more text, but much of it is implied. Her ghostly eyes, and her pale skin, it is all together different than just a typical beauty. That is why she stood out at the Tourney. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: We don't know that, and she doesn't even look like the picture Illyrio shows Tyrion. It is a small locket with a painted picture, hardly anything identifiable. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I am serious, I am serious, I am serious. I don't know how many times I have to tell you. Oh but why? You say the fire at the gods eye has nothing to do with dragon fire when I already overviewed the text. But you went back and pretend that evidence was never presented. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: If Biter represents Viserion and Arya represents Quentyn in Meereen (rather than Arya in KL, as you were saying earlier), then shouldn't Arya have been burned up? And shouldn't it be Arya's actions which spark the fire in the first place? They don't represent Quentyn, they are like Quentyn. Quentyn failed because he thought his dragon blood would help him. Arya will succeed where Quentyn failed even though she doesn't have dragon's blood. The message is, you don't need Targaryen blood to fly a dragon. Same goes with Dany. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: He said Olenna poisoned Joffrey, he didn't say supporting your crackpot theory of Jaqen's involvement. Read GRRM quote again. He said that is what the observant reader would guess, but he makes no promises because he has more to reveal. Like in the bloody hands play the valonqar (or stranger) was involved. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: GRRM didn't say that. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, and nobody in the books has ever referred to him as having been poisoned. He was poisoned. This is known. Oberyn tells Tyrion "your father may not live forever". When Tyrion finds him Tywin is on the privy, because he had drank widow's blood which is keep his digestive tract from working. It is why his body smells so much after he is dead. Tyrion's bolt was a mercy, Tywin was a dead man walking. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: That won't be the valonqar killing them, that will be Jon Connington. I said earlier that YG won't need to personally kill Cersei because he has people beneath him who can handle that sort of thing. Again, prophecy's work in curious ways. It says the Valonqar (younger and more beautiful person) will cast her down and take everything she holds dear. She holds her children dear, they will be killed in the name of Aegon VI. A fake taking the title of the real Valonqar. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Nobody sees it but you. How did Aegon cause the boar to kill Robert!? Is Cersei secretly Aegon!? And, of course, Aegon is never actually called a swineherd in the text. He didn't. but the symbol of the swine killing Robert and the swineherd killing the other usurpers is there for shrewd eyes to see. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Like I said, only 2 out of her 10 chapters. Again, 5/10 chapters, not 2. 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. Cersei will. Beauty is subjective, but we know she find Rhaegar the most beautiful. Who is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar? His son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 4:40 PM, butterweedstrover said: There is much evidence I have barely touched upon, but that matters not. Since your judgement of what evidence to present has been so bad, maybe the evidence you've neglected is actually good Quote Unwashed hair is greasy which gives it a damp quality, just like recently bathed hairr. No, unwashed hair is the opposite of recently bathed hair! Not that we know Alleras bathed especially recently. Quote Chains, they are both in chains. That's not an inverse, so it better fits a parallel. Quote Tankards, in one chapter they are full, in the other they are empty. That fits an inverse, but NOT a parallel. Quote The allusion to a monkey/ape from the summer isles. Alleras' mother is not a parallel to Rorge, and one person joking about someone he's never seen isn't a parallel to the POV description of a character in the scene. So this is neither an inverse nor a parallel. Quote Jaqen is in chains against his will, and Alleras is celebrating his chains. That fits an inverse but not a parallel. Quote Both smile all the time That would be a parallel, not an inverse. Quote notice Jaqen frequently asks for a bath How frequently? Quote Alleras is noted for his propensity to bath Only when Leo is insulting others by comparison via setting a very low bar. Quote They are both at the citadel And under a false identity, which would be a parallel but not an inverse. Quote Alleras is called as such for being of mix race. A bit of this and a bit of that. Aegon is as well, he is half-dornish. Summer islanders are racially more distinct from Westerosi, Dorne is at least part of Westeros. And nobody has said Jaqen is Dornish at all, that's just something in your head and not something you can treat as established for your argument. A flipped version of Sarella's ancestry might be a father from the Summer Islands and a mother from Dorne. Quote Aemon was speaking on dragons, not Oberyn's bastard. He didn't explain what he meant by the Sphinx. And the only person referred to as a sphinx is Alleras. Quote Do you believe Aemon was speaking about Alleras? That's the only person who fits the bill as of now. Quote Aemon is speaking about dragons He spoke about a number of things. Quote This passage has confused people for quite some time, but I hope I have unraveled the mystery for you. It's time for you to abandon all hope before it wells up in the first place, because that's been a sure sign that your hopes will be dashed. Quote But then he said he is too old. He was only speaking of Targaryen blood, he does not know Jon is Rhaegar's son. That answer is in the citadel archives. None of that is an argument against Dany being one of the heads of the dragon, or in favor of the sphinx being one such head. Quote She is of mixed blood, and has different colors. Just as Aegon has two hair colors and is half dornish, half Targaryen. Mixed colors? Alleras doesn't have multi-colored hair, or even dichromatic eyes like Tyrion. Quote We know there are two Sphinxes, Sam sees them before he enters the citadel We know there are those statues, but Aemon only refers to a singular sphinx, and we've only heard of one person referred to as such. Quote But you see, the reference is clear and obvious. No, I don't see, because it's not clear & obvious. Swineherds are common enough that a reference to one is not necessarily a reference to that specific story. Quote The swineherd had two most valued items, a nightingale and a rose. Those are items he possessed, right? Pate doesn't possess either. Quote The reference is beyond question. I'm not aware of anyone else who accepts your take on that. Quote The type of cloak he wears is the same as Strider. A travellers' cloak? That would be worn by any traveller. Quote Pate is the POV Only of that one chapter, where he's introduced and dies. Not at all analogous to Tolkien's Fellowship. Instead he's more like the POVs of previous prologues (all of whom up to that point had been members of celibate orders). Quote Samwell was inspired by Samwise from LOTR. That I can grant. See, I don't disagree with EVERYTHING you say! But Samwell being inspired by Samwise DOESN'T make Pate analogous to any of Tolkien's fellowship. Instead, Sam's warrior companion in the series is Jon Snow. Quote 595?cb=20121003045004 The picture didn't display for me. You might want to link to some external image. Quote I believe I have, if you search your heart. You believe incorrectly yet again, because I know much more about what I doubt than you do. Quote But this arguments hold no weight, and I think you know that. No, I think my arguments hold a lot more weight than yours. That's why I make those arguments and reject yours! Quote It is quite simple, do you believe he is referencing Oberyn's bastard? Yeah, that's who fits. Quote If so, why? I don't know. He realized Sam was going to encounter a "sphinx" soon somehow. It's been over a decade since we got a new Sam chapter, so I don't know what will come of that. Quote It seems difficult to believe From what I've seen, that's what most of the fandom believes. Quote But in Sam's chapter, we are told there are two Sphinxes waiting inside, a male and a female He sees a statue. That doesn't mean there's more than one living "sphinx". The male/female angle could be a reference to the fact that Sarella is a female masquerading as the male Alleras. Quote No, for Aegon the red symbolizes his Dornish blood, and the White is the hair of his father. Why does one side of his hair represent the "blood" of one parent, while the other side is for the hair of the other parent? Shouldn't both sides be indicative of the hair a parent? Quote Jon prefers women like Ygritte and Arya (not Sansa or Myrcella) Jon doesn't have a lot of experience with women, nor does he have an abundance of suitors he needs to choose from. Quote The "love" spoken about in the house of the undying was someone altogether different A blue flower growing in wall of ice? Quote They had him turn into a unconvincing partner to Dany, but they could not set up a love triangle between him and Arya (for obvious reasons). I think GRRM himself abandoned the Arya love triangle, since he didn't send her to the wall. Instead she's being set up with Gendry. Quote He is only changing faces, he can revert back to his true face whenever. It has never been established that "Jaqen" is his true face. He treats that identity as dead, so I don't think he'll be returning to that face. And you never explained WHY a FM would be using his "true" face in Westeros while using a name you certainly don't believe is his true one and carrying out multiple murders. Quote Not in a satisfying way Not satisfying for you, but you have terrible standards of evidence you use to force everything to fit your crackpot theory. Quote Yes, he wants a dragon and a girl He wants a dragon for the girl. Yes to the latter, no to the former. Quote He wants both of these things. Rhaegar wanted the fifteen year old maiden and the dragon. No, he was not trading a dragon in exchange for a girl. Quote the gold is always referenced to as a dragon A gold coin is referred to as a dragon throughout the series, and silver coins are called stags. I have quoted examples of the latter, in which a character might make a joke about the animal symbolism but we're not supposed to think of that as actually symbolic of a Baratheon (or Durrandon) anymore. Quote Rhaegar was also a prince, and Pate is much like him No, they are more like opposites. Quote Both Rhaegar and Pate are thieves, but they deny it at first. When an answer is banging itself right in front of you, you ought to see it. No one ever calls Rhaegar a thief, so he never denies it. That's not "right in front" of me, you've simply made up a scene that's not in the text. Quote No, it is a reference to the three heads of the dragon, that should be obvious. No asserting it again doesn't make it so. The text itself refers to the Great Shepherd deity, not a dragon. And I have explained how that better fits the Hindu trimurti. Quote the reborn head NO, the head itself is not "reborn". It instead CAUSES rebirth in the "devoured" dead. Stop making this same error again and again! Quote Arya is the devourer of worms. Worms devour the dead from the inside So if that head represents Arya, shouldn't it be devouring something which devours the dead, rather than directly devouring the dead itself? Quote Worms are related to dragons I actually agree about that, because Septon Barth wrote about their relationshp to firewyrms. They're not as related to earthworms though. Etymologically, "dragons" are related to "worms" in our world because snakes were once referred to as "wyrms". Quote There is the devourer, and the wormed apple. Both were references to the three heads of the dragon No, discussion of the Great Shepherd and its three heads made no reference to the dragon. Quote I have shown it to you, for which I expect you are thankful No, your expectation is wrong, I'm irritated that you've wasted my time with your nonsensical and internally inconsistent arguments. Quote Arya is also caught in the middle of dragon fire at the gods eye (metaphorically) I don't agree the fire was a metaphor for dragon fire. Quote and she is to be married to a dragon like Lyanna was. I don't agree to that either, nor has it been established that Lyanna ever married. Quote Crows feast on leftovers, the worm devours the the dying What are you talking about? Crowfood Umber was bit by a crow while he was still alive, whereas worms are much less likely to consume the living! Quote And what does Ned confronting Cersei have to with bonding? I didn't say it did, it's just an example of something happening in front of a heart tree. There are many such scenes in the series. There is no scene of Lyanna with Rhaegar in front of a heart tree. Quote Well, the story is much the same. She would have chosen Rhaegar over Jaime, she said as such. Cersei & Jaime are each other's first loves. Cersei killed her childhood friend to eliminate any competition for Jaime. Jaime has never been with any woman other than Cersei, and Cersei continued to sleep with Jaime and have him father all her children even while being married to Robert. Quote That is why she always hated Robert She hated Robert because he said "Lyanna" when he slept with her for the first time (even though she slept with Jaime that very morning). Quote Instead Rhaegar married Lyanna Rhaegar married Elia instead of Cersei, and polygamy is not permitted under the Faith of the Seven. Quote According to your own link, he was referenced in five chapters, not two. Please read your own link. Ah, you are correct. I don't recall now how I added that up incorrectly. Quote However the story is interesting, because it is written to present the truth What do you mean? If it's false, what makes it interesting? Quote The arbor gold is a reference to lies, this is established in the books. It is not the same as some just drinking arbor gold at random, because it is a device of the story. So if Varys made it up, WHY would he specify arbor gold? Quote This is not the first time urine and arbor gold are compared to one another. Compared because they're both yellow. Here Pisswater Bend is just used as a place where poor people live, as it is when Tyrion is hearing about the spread of the bloody flux or when Cersei is being seen by the crowds during her Walk of Shame. Quote House Dayne is said to be the oldest house, they are the ancient house. It's hard to say the relative age of any house once you go that far back. Quote Go from there. What does any of that have to do with Red Hand = Red Cross? Quote The Stranger is the one who provides the poison NO, the Hand is DRINKING the cup from the Stranger. If that was poison, he would die! Instead he is pledging himself to the representation of death. Quote Her first name is Arya horseface, Lyanna was the horse girl. Lots of noble girls ride horses. That's how even Cersei believes Margaery & her companions lost their maidenheads. Quote Jaqen asks her to name a king, and she names Jaqen. No, Arya gives multiple examples of different people she could name, including a king (because that's an extreme request to make). When Jaqen asks for a name, that's not specific to her question about a king. And indeed Arya doesn't believe him to be a king, as she would have no reason to think that. It's just a name he owes to the Red God. Quote They were and they are. How can it be a "surprise" to repeat what I have already told you multiple times!? Quote We are talking about people ancillary to them who are referenced in their introduction. That's not enough to make them comparable, especially as the "ancillary" people differ so greatly. Quote No, because this is important for one character. Only according to you. I deny that membership in the Bloody Mummers indicates any such thing, whether for Jaqen or anybody else. My reasoning is consistent, so I don't need to make any special pleading. You are engaged in a textbook example of "confirmation bias" where you seize on anything you can fit into your theory and ignore when the same logic when it doesn't. Quote Mercy plays the role of a mummer, that is her character. The FM do not, they play the role of whatever identity is available to them. Are they not pretending to be somebody else... like a mummer? Quote The other names are not separate identities of other real people. Weasel was the nickname of a real person, and it wasn't a nickname Arya made up. Arya knew Weasel to just be an unremarkable little girl trying to survive the ravaging of the Riverlands... exactly what she was trying to present herself as. Quote He breaks with his speech pattern when swearing to Arya (under the heart tree) and again you claim this is totally normal. Becausee saying "a man" will do something doesn't sound like a personal promise in normal Westerosi speech, instead it sounds like someone else is responsible. Quote I am demonstrating the truth for you to see, it is all very obvious and very true. Not obvious to anyone but you. Quote Like I have demonstrated Arya as the eater of worms, and the wormed apple. I don't think the apple has anything to do with Arya. Quote Why, it is incredibly obvious. I have explained, your reasoning is inconsistent. Quote He (she) cored the center of the red apple with the gold apple Alleras hit two out of the three apples, which would imply two out of the three are Martells by your logic... if you were consistent. Of course, Rhaegar's children by Elia would not be Martells but Targaryens, and their sigil would be a three-headed dragon rather than a sun & spear. Quote File:HouseMartell.svg This didn't display for me either. Quote The wormed apple is Arya. I have more than explained why. Your explanation is terrible. The apple is not eating the worm, and Arya is not being eaten by any worms. Quote It's hard for me to believe you when I have certainly highlighted things you missed. Just like sane people "miss" the secret connections that schizophrenics see around them. Quote This isn't some plan, he does not send the ginger or the clothes as part of a plan. I didn't say that was the plan. Read the link on construal level theory: people act differently in different modes. Quote YG never wore those clothes, that is the point. Otherwise she would mention it, not destroy it. Why would she need to mention it? "As you know, these are the clothes you wore as a child" "Are you talking for the benefit of an invisible audience?" Quote Aegon wore those clothes. Why would Illyrio send them to YG then!? You have never explained that. Quote The healers were messengers in this story, which brought the father to ask for revenge. They are the deliverers of vengeance. No, they didn't deliver vengeance at all, and it's not said that the healers acted as messengers at all. Quote this happened in the show. You need to distinguish between the show & the books when making an argument. The show had Jon named Aegon, which you agree would not have been the case in the books. The show had a septon secretly annull Rhaegar's marriage, and write it down in a record, only nobody else knew about this for all of Jon's life. Secret annullments don't make any sense. The one theory I've heard for how Rhaegar can marry Lyanna is via a Targaryen ceremony permitting polygamy a la Maegor. No heart tree is required for that. Quote The motives behind Lyanna and Arya is what we look towards, not how things turned out You are overlooking the role of Rhaegar & Jaqen in each story! Quote Barristan is the first person we hear this from, and it makes perfect sense. Ashara could not hide her pregnancy, but if the baby was taken away then to remove any doubt it must have been said to be stillborn. We never hear of any baby being taken away, this is just another thing you made up that's not in the text. Quote other stories say she never jumped at all Ha, quote an example. I don't think you can. Quote More likely it is because Arya asked if she could become a high septon, and she is the one listing these names. I agree that's not a reference, but I would use that logic for ALL the examples Arya comes up with: they are just things she thought of rather than "references" to anything else. Quote Of course not, this is what I am saying. Please stick closer to the text. You fly off far from it while claiming various things are "established" that other readers don't believe. Quote If Aegon VI was heir to the throne. Viserys is dead at this moment. Dead he may be, but unlike Jaqen, he was actually crowned as king by the remaining Targaryen loyalists. Quote But regardless, Aegon sees himself as the rightful king, and in many ways he should be. That's true for YG, but we never hear of Jaqen making any such claim. Quote There is little evidence that such a pair would work (as I say so above). Whether it will happen and whether it will "work" are actually two separate things (which the show itself illustrated). Quote It actually is. Rhaegar did not name a second son Aegon. There is no other name he gives a son in the text. We actually have no reason to believe he expected an additional son, rather than another sister for his Aegon (just as Aegon I had two sisters). So the most likely name he had in mind would seem to be Visenya. Quote In the show Gilly wants to name her child Jon. In the books she wanted to name Mance's son after Aemon. That's Gilly, not some other character with some other child. Aemon doesn't journey with Sam & Gilly on the show like he did in the books. Quote According to the Kindly man, they are not covert operatives hoping to steal a book on dragons. He actually doesn't say that specifically. Quote But as he said, promises, more than one. Not just to kill Balon, but also to hatch the dragon egg and fulfill his destiny. Those are very different things. One is keeping a promise he actually agreed to fulfill, the other was just someone predicting an occurrence before he was even born. Quote kill yourself and gain vengeance. Her life as payment for the gift. If she blames herself, is vengeance really her motivation? Throwing herself out of the tower wouldn't achieve that. And under your theory, she still hasn't killed herself! Quote the waif: "I did not die", but she suffered worse. That's not what we see happen to other people who come to the HoBaW seeking their own death. Quote In that you give your life so the gift can be given to someone else. In the HoBaW, you can give your own life as payment for a contract. Who was the contract taken out on, and how long has it been since the contract was agreed to? Quote Her hope for vengeance, he is the red right hand. Against the people that destroyed Rhaegar's family. Rhaegar was killed by Robert, who was killed by a boar (because Cersei got his squires to replace his wine). Aerys was killed by Jaime, who is still alive, and I don't recall you discussing how Jaqen is going to kill him (unlike Cersei, who hadn't killed any of Rhaegar's family). Rhaenys was killed by Amory Lorch, who was killed by Vargo Hoat (hey, he's a Bloody Mummer, maybe he's the real Aegon VI!). Aegon & Elia were killed by Gregor Clegane, who was killed by Oberyn Martell. Amory & Gregor were acting on the orders of Tywin, who was killed by Tyrion. I could also add that Rhaella was killed by childbirth & Viserys by Khal Drogo. Jaqen didn't kill any of those responsible. Quote She was the one that wanted to split Lyanna from Rhaegar, so she thought using Brandon would be the easiest way. This is another thing you've made up. If Ashara had advance knowledge of what was going to happen in the Riverlands (since she presumably wasn't there herself, and specifically had probably been sent home to Starfall by that point), she could have gotten a raven to Brandon ahead of time, preventing Lyanna from being taken in the first place. Instead Lyanna disappears, and only after that does Brandon react. Quote She, like her brother, still serviced Rhaegar No, she was never in service to him rather than Elia. Quote Whatever was being referred to in the reply. You said "please search it up" in response to this: Quote It doesn't really make sense the way language is normally used. "Looked to me instead of Stark" implies looking in a similar manner, rather than an opposite one. I don't know what you want me to search for. Quote She didn't, Barristan did. If he had unhorsed Rhaegar, the prince could never have crowned Lyanna in the first place. Agreed, that's what Barristan blames himself for. He gives no indication that he thinks Ashara caused any of the things you ascribe to her. Quote It does. The waif says she is tell part mistruth and part lie. Then Arya ends by asking was the whole thing a lie. Being a mix of lies & truth doesn't mean I should replace it with some other story you made up. Instead Arya thinks one specific element (the percentage paid) may have been fudged. Quote The ancient house is house Dayne, the noble father is Rhaegar No, Ashara's father is not Rhaegar! Ashara isn't an only child or an heir either. Quote Aegon's mother died when he was little, he has no memory of her. He is the sixth in his name when his father wed Lyanna. Didn't you say the Waif is Ashara, not Aegon? And Aegon had not yet become king, so he would not be Aegon VI yet, just as Daeron the Drunken was not Daeron III. Quote Rhaenys is dead so only 2/3 of his children are still alive to fulfill the payment. Assuming Jon is #3, he hasn't been given in payment at all! Quote Her ghostly eyes Nobody describes them as "ghostly". Quote it is all together different than just a typical beauty Pale skin is considered beautiful among Westerosi ladies. The atypical thing about her is how beautiful she is, in the eyes of basically everybody. Quote It is a small locket with a painted picture, hardly anything identifiable. The picture shows what color hair & eyes she had. We know Lemore has different colored hair, and the lack of mention of purple eyes is perhaps the most common argument against her being Ashara Dayne. Quote Oh but why? [...] But you went back and pretend that evidence was never presented. Your evidence is terribly unconvincing, for reasons I have explained. Please go back and try to understand the perspective of someone who doesn't buy your theory (because most people don't) rather than responding again on the assumption that your evidence is convincing. Quote Arya will succeed where Quentyn failed even though she doesn't have dragon's blood. The message is, you don't need Targaryen blood to fly a dragon. Same goes with Dany. That lesson comes from Nettles, which GRRM actually wrote about, unlike your imagined scene with Arya in the future (which doesn't even correspond to a scene in the show, as Arya never tamed a dragon there). And are you saying Dany doesn't have Targaryen blood? Quote Read GRRM quote again. He said that is what the observant reader would guess, but he makes no promises because he has more to reveal. He didn't say it wasn't the case that Olenna poisoned Joffrey, nor that there was even a reveal specific to that subplot remaining. He said he has more books and "may have" more surprises. He usually avoids confirming anything, so he was unusually explicit in saying we should conclude it was Olenna. Quote Like in the bloody hands play the valonqar (or stranger) was involved. The stranger didn't actually do anything, the Hand killed people and raped Mercy's character. Quote He was poisoned. This is known. None of the characters in the series know that, they instead hold Tyrion responsible. Quote Oberyn tells Tyrion "your father may not live forever". That's true without poisoning. Quote When Tyrion finds him Tywin is on the privy, because he had drank widow's blood Tyrion doesn't think that, for he knows his father is a human and humans defecate. Quote Tyrion's bolt was a mercy, Tywin was a dead man walking. Sitting, technically, and Tywin himself didn't seem to have any such notion. With Tywin & Oberyn both dead, how would you even expect such information to be revealed? Quote Again, prophecy's work in curious ways. It says the Valonqar (younger and more beautiful person) will cast her down and take everything she holds dear No it doesn't! It says the valonqar will wrap his hands around her throat after her tears have drowned her. The one who will cast her down is "another, younger and more beautiful" who is NOT said to be a valonqar. Instead the most logical parsing of "another" is that it refers to another queen, who would logically not be a brother (little or otherwise). Quote She holds her children dear, they will be killed in the name of Aegon VI. A fake taking the title of the real Valonqar. Why would Maggie refer to the fake as a valonqar? Quote He didn't. but the symbol of the swine killing Robert and the swineherd killing the other usurpers is there for shrewd eyes to see. That's dumb even for you. Not only is a swineherd not a swine, but Jaqen had nothing to do with it either way! There's no vengeance as per your theory, because that was supposed to be about actual revenge, not some symbolic system only you believe in. Quote Cersei will. This is you making something up. Quote Who is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar? His son. Again, no one has said that. Stop repeating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, unwashed hair is the opposite of recently bathed hair! Not that we know Alleras bathed especially recently. That's not an inverse, so it better fits a parallel. That fits an inverse, but NOT a parallel. Alleras' mother is not a parallel to Rorge, and one person joking about someone he's never seen isn't a parallel to the POV description of a character in the scene. So this is neither an inverse nor a parallel. That fits an inverse but not a parallel. That would be a parallel, not an inverse. How frequently? Only when Leo is insulting others by comparison via setting a very low bar. And under a false identity, which would be a parallel but not an inverse. Let us put it this way. Their characters are parallels, but their situation is inversed On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Summer islanders are racially more distinct from Westerosi, Dorne is at least part of Westeros. And nobody has said Jaqen is Dornish at all, that's just something in your head and not something you can treat as established for your argument. A flipped version of Sarella's ancestry might be a father from the Summer Islands and a mother from Dorne. Father is Dornish, Aegon's mother is Dornish. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: He didn't explain what he meant by the Sphinx. And the only person referred to as a sphinx is Alleras. Let me ask now: Do you have any possible idea of what Aemon was talking about by "the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler"? If not, perhaps my answer is the answer. For it is the only one that fits perfectly. I should have told you before hand, but among my inner circle I go by the name: the truth teller. Because you see, I reveal truths. I am the revealer. Not just as regards ASOIAF, but many other things as well. I have a knack for deductions. I deduce, and I discover. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: That's the only person who fits the bill as of now. Oberyn's bastard? Why? Why does the mystery Aemon told us about have to do with her? I have given you the answer, but now please produce a theory of your own. There are none, because no other answer makes sense. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: He spoke about a number of things. Targaryen, dragons, and magic. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: None of that is an argument against Dany being one of the heads of the dragon, or in favor of the sphinx being one such head. Dany was not mentioned as the head of the dragon, she was mentioned as the prince who was promised. Whenever Dany is mentioned in regards to three dragons/three heads, she is the mother, she is above the three, not a part. The Sphinx is not a head of the dragon. Alleras is a Sphinx and he is not a head of the dragon. The two are not related. Aegon happens to be a sphinx and a dragon. Pure coincidence. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Mixed colors? Alleras doesn't have multi-colored hair, or even dichromatic eyes like Tyrion. Let's look at why Alleras is called the Sphinx: "His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel’s main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx." A bit of this and a bit of that. Different colors, different shades, different blood. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, I don't see, because it's not clear & obvious. Swineherds are common enough that a reference to one is not necessarily a reference to that specific story. Those are items he possessed, right? Pate doesn't possess either. In the story, a nightingale and a rose are not exclusive to the prince. His kingdom is poor, but these are his prized possessions. Others could also have them, but they are what he finds the most beauty in. Pate finds Rosey and the Nightingales most beautiful. Pate references Rosey and the Nightingales in the same way: "Not half as sweet as Rosey" "Though not so sweet as one small nightingale." These are things he values, the two things the Pig boy values the most. That is the pig boy, the rose, and the nightingale. Nothing could be more obvious. All three together as one. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I'm not aware of anyone else who accepts your take on that. You see and can think for yourself. Many fans do not read literature outside of fantasy, so they wouldn't catch many of the references. However I posted the same theory on reddit in a comment section (it was inactive mostly), but I was rewarded a rocket and general acclaim by my audience. Most who are shown the reference understand how clear and obvious it is. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: A travellers' cloak? That would be worn by any traveller. "“You were with your friends. It was not my wish to intrude upon your fellowship.” The alchemist wore a hooded traveler’s cloak, brown and nondescript." A brown cloak, hooded. This is what Strider wore. He is watching the fellowship from a shady seat in the tavern. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: That I can grant. See, I don't disagree with EVERYTHING you say! But Samwell being inspired by Samwise DOESN'T make Pate analogous to any of Tolkien's fellowship. Instead, Sam's warrior companion in the series is Jon Snow. Sam joins the same fellowship at the end of AFFC (Pate, Leo, Alleras, etc.). Sam was also a member of the fellowship in LOTR. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: The picture didn't display for me. You might want to link to some external image. Brown hooded cloak: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/5/5f/Strider_in_Prancing_Pony_-_FOTR.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20121003045004 On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: You believe incorrectly yet again, because I know much more about what I doubt than you do. Ahh, the truth reveals itself in time. There is no hiding from its glare. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't know. He realized Sam was going to encounter a "sphinx" soon somehow. It's been over a decade since we got a new Sam chapter, so I don't know what will come of that. No ideas? None at all? The riddle is there for you to solve, if you are so perplexed, maybe it is because you are looking at it the wrong way. Please give some idea, or else you all but say this question is so confounding, that the answer must be incredibly obvious. I have explained the answer, as it fits with everything else I have developed for you through meticulous reading. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: He sees a statue. That doesn't mean there's more than one living "sphinx". The male/female angle could be a reference to the fact that Sarella is a female masquerading as the male Alleras. true. But then there are two people of interest he is introduced to: Alleras and Pate (Hi, I'm Pate, like the pigboy). These are the two he see's outside. If the Sphinx were a reference to dual genders, then it would be a female disguised as a male, not two separate entities. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Why does one side of his hair represent the "blood" of one parent, while the other side is for the hair of the other parent? Shouldn't both sides be indicative of the hair a parent? His hair is already White. That of a Targaryen. He dyed the other side red for his mother, for house Martell. The red sun. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Jon doesn't have a lot of experience with women, nor does he have an abundance of suitors he needs to choose from. He has a clear preference, as I have established already. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: A blue flower growing in wall of ice? No, I am talking about the three prophecies. Three mounts, three fires, and three treasons. All three end with love. There is a mystery lover who will be part of Dany's journey. I have already explained why that is not Jon. Daario is suppose to establish the characteristics of this finale lover (colorful charming rogue). On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I think GRRM himself abandoned the Arya love triangle, since he didn't send her to the wall. Instead she's being set up with Gendry. Did he, where was she set up with Gendry? In Harrenhall, Gendry was made out to be Robert. She came there with him, but then she found another she preferred. Since then, her and Gendry have parted ways. Instead she went after Aegon to the house of black and white. In the Mercy chapter, it is shown she is sleeping in his old room. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: It has never been established that "Jaqen" is his true face. He treats that identity as dead, so I don't think he'll be returning to that face. And you never explained WHY a FM would be using his "true" face in Westeros while using a name you certainly don't believe is his true one and carrying out multiple murders. Jaqen is a false identity, not a real person. The face then cannot be of Jaqen, for Jaqen is not real. The face is his real face. He abandoned the Facelessmen to come to Westeros and recclaim his birthright. But things went wrong when he was locked up by Ilyrio and Varys. He is know trying to hatch a dragon egg at the citadel as proof of his birthright. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Yes to the latter, no to the former. This is how it is phrased in the book: "Is the girl worth a dragon?" Dragon is common motif in that prologue. It is the first word spoken, and it is referenced time and time again. "Do you have my dragon?" he asks the alchemist. It is a common device use to signify the dragon egg at the citadel, and the locked away book on dragons. Pate wants a dragon. Pate is referenced to as a hidden prince. Pate wants to run away with a fifteen year old maiden. This is Rhaegar, Rhaegar Targaryen. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, he was not trading a dragon in exchange for a girl. The phrasing does not leave much to be questioned. Notice this line: "Pate had to follow or lose Rosey and the dragon both, forever" He would lose both, he needs both. Rhaegar needed a dragon, but he also wanted Lyanna (GRRM reveals this when he calls Rhaegar a love-struck prince). On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: A gold coin is referred to as a dragon throughout the series, and silver coins are called stags. I have quoted examples of the latter, in which a character might make a joke about the animal symbolism but we're not supposed to think of that as actually symbolic of a Baratheon (or Durrandon) anymore. And not so often as "my dragon". Golden dragon, coin, etc. But here the main motif is dragons. It is the first word spoken, and it is used towards interesting affects (do you have my dragon, is she worth a dragon). Notice this line: "Pate had to follow or lose Rosey and the dragon both, forever" Not the gold or the coin, the dragon. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, they are more like opposites. They are in the same position, it is why Pate is referenced to as a secret prince. He wants to run away with the fifteen year old maiden, and he wants the dragon. He is a thief. But neither him nor Rhaegar have what they want at the moment. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No one ever calls Rhaegar a thief, so he never denies it. That's not "right in front" of me, you've simply made up a scene that's not in the text. It is. He steals Lyanna away. He is a thief. You can deny basic language, all you want, and I know you already have. "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her? “I am no thief,” That is his story, he wants the girl, but he is no thief. Finally he accepts who he is, just like Rhaegar does. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No asserting it again doesn't make it so. The text itself refers to the Great Shepherd deity, not a dragon. And I have explained how that better fits the Hindu trimurti. The Great Shepherd is not a real deity, it is a plot device. It is referenced, to give us a hint of who the three heads of the dragon are. Otherwise he would not withhold information about the middle head if it were just an info dump about some made-up lore. Three heads, like the three apples. There are clues, and I have clearly described who each are. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: NO, the head itself is not "reborn". It instead CAUSES rebirth in the "devoured" dead. Stop making this same error again and again! Writing in caps does not change the truth. There is a head the devours the dying. And there is a head from which the reborn head comes. Azor Ahai reborn comes from Jon, he is a vessel for the prophecy. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: So if that head represents Arya, shouldn't it be devouring something which devours the dead, rather than directly devouring the dead itself? The quote only references devouring the dying. "The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third" Arya devours worms, which are symbols of dragons. She devours the dragon. The dying and the reborn are not the heads, they are things being acted on. One head eats the dying, the other births them again. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't agree the fire was a metaphor for dragon fire. Why, didn't I provide all the textual evidence? On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't agree to that either, nor has it been established that Lyanna ever married. In the show, it was. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I didn't say it did, it's just an example of something happening in front of a heart tree. There are many such scenes in the series. There is no scene of Lyanna with Rhaegar in front of a heart tree. In the show there is. And in the books it is highly alluded. Not least of all having a child out of wedlock would be a disservice to Lyanna. And Rhaegar saw himself as noble, and this child was to be his third head. But Arya is a clear reference to Lyanna, and Arya has a clear reference to being married under a heart tree, by a dragon no less. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Cersei & Jaime are each other's first loves. Cersei killed her childhood friend to eliminate any competition for Jaime. Jaime has never been with any woman other than Cersei, and Cersei continued to sleep with Jaime and have him father all her children even while being married to Robert. Yes, and she found Rhaegar more beautiful. It is Rhaegar she dwells on, like Robert did with Lyanna. The most beautiful, these words are spoken many times, and often. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: She hated Robert because he said "Lyanna" when he slept with her for the first time (even though she slept with Jaime that very morning). "She had never forgiven Robert for killing him [Rhaegar]" This was his first sin. It happened before he called her Lyanna. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Rhaegar married Elia instead of Cersei, and polygamy is not permitted under the Faith of the Seven. Yes, they married under the old gods. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: What do you mean? If it's false, what makes it interesting? Because it reveals the lie in of itself. It reveals a truth, just not the one YG believes. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: So if Varys made it up, WHY would he specify arbor gold? He didn't, GRRM. The author told the story in a way to reveal the truth. He has Arbor Gold and Urine within the tale. The Pisswater Prince traded for Arbor Gold. This is his subtle way of revealing a lie through narrative. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Compared because they're both yellow. Here Pisswater Bend is just used as a place where poor people live, as it is when Tyrion is hearing about the spread of the bloody flux or when Cersei is being seen by the crowds during her Walk of Shame. The usage of the pisswater prince and the arbor gold was no mistake. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: It's hard to say the relative age of any house once you go that far back. Most of the house we think of old come from the age of heroes. House Dayne comes from the dawn age, before the age of heroes. They are near 10,000 years old, and now house has been said to be older. The sword of the morning was crafted before Valyrian steel, by a fallen comet. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: What does any of that have to do with Red Hand = Red Cross? The Red Hand is like the play bloody hand. In this story, they are the messengers that come to instigate revenge. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: NO, the Hand is DRINKING the cup from the Stranger. If that was poison, he would die! Instead he is pledging himself to the representation of death. He gives him the means of death. Olenna poisoned Joffrey as Oberyn did Tywin but they were given the means by another. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Lots of noble girls ride horses. That's how even Cersei believes Margaery & her companions lost their maidenheads. Horseface Arya and Lyanna are to explicitly referenced along with horses, not just "happen to ride horses". On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, Arya gives multiple examples of different people she could name, including a king (because that's an extreme request to make). When Jaqen asks for a name, that's not specific to her question about a king. And indeed Arya doesn't believe him to be a king, as she would have no reason to think that. It's just a name he owes to the Red God. So quick you say no. "“Even if I named the king . . .” “Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.” He knelt beside her, so they were faceto-face, “A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?” Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” She lists names, and then he swears his oath. After he has sworn to kill anyone, she asks: 'even a king?' He tells her "a king dies" and then asks if it is Joffrey. Arya answers Jaqen H'ghar. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Only according to you. I deny that membership in the Bloody Mummers indicates any such thing, whether for Jaqen or anybody else. My reasoning is consistent, so I don't need to make any special pleading. You are engaged in a textbook example of "confirmation bias" where you seize on anything you can fit into your theory and ignore when the same logic when it doesn't. Are they not pretending to be somebody else... like a mummer? This is like the role of the Sphinx. Just because someone is a mummer does not mean he is fake. However Aegon playing the role of a mummer is in line with his method acting (smiling, making up names, and rephrasing his made up background time and time again). On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Weasel was the nickname of a real person, and it wasn't a nickname Arya made up. Arya knew Weasel to just be an unremarkable little girl trying to survive the ravaging of the Riverlands... exactly what she was trying to present herself as. They also used the name Arry. Arya borrowed that name, but not that identity. She was always Arya of house Stark. It is very simple, Jaqen compares his own name to Arry, Weasel, etc. to point out these are just made up, they are not real. Jaqen is a made up name, it is why he picked a place close to Braavos and reminds people of it in every introduction. It is amusing to him. If he was playing the role of a real person, or if Arya was playing the role of the real Weasel, they would not behave like themselves. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Becausee saying "a man" will do something doesn't sound like a personal promise in normal Westerosi speech, instead it sounds like someone else is responsible. You are WAY reaching. It is telling, a very interesting line, esepcially since it is under the heart tree. He is pledging in Westerosi speech like Rhaegar would have done with Lyanna. None of that has to do with him altering his speech for clarity (otherwise he would not speak that way). When he says "a man" he is referencing himself through context. Otherwise he would not speak like that. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't think the apple has anything to do with Arya. Worms, worms, worms. Worm eaten apples. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: I have explained, your reasoning is inconsistent. It is wholly consistent, it is brilliant in fact. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Alleras hit two out of the three apples, which would imply two out of the three are Martells by your logic... if you were consistent. Of course, Rhaegar's children by Elia would not be Martells but Targaryens, and their sigil would be a three-headed dragon rather than a sun & spear. Look how it is described. The apple is shown to have been cored by a golden arrow. The wormed apple (Arya) is sliced in two. The Sun in the Martell sigil is not sliced, it has a spear driven into it's center like the first apple. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: This didn't display for me either. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/6/60/House_Martell.svg/1200px-House_Martell.svg.png A golden spear through the center of a red sun. Just like a golden arrow through the center of a red apple. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Your explanation is terrible. The apple is not eating the worm, and Arya is not being eaten by any worms. The devourer. She eats the worms, the dragon. You're capacity to twist and turn words until they mean nothing is remarkable. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Why would she need to mention it? "As you know, these are the clothes you wore as a child" "Are you talking for the benefit of an invisible audience?" To Tyrion at least. And she would not destroy it if Ilyrio had not. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Why would Illyrio send them to YG then!? You have never explained that. He was thinking about his son when he did so. He only has one real son (Young Griff) but he remembers Aegon more. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, they didn't deliver vengeance at all, and it's not said that the healers acted as messengers at all. Aegon will. That is the promise. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: You need to distinguish between the show & the books when making an argument. The show had Jon named Aegon, which you agree would not have been the case in the books. The show had a septon secretly annull Rhaegar's marriage, and write it down in a record, only nobody else knew about this for all of Jon's life. Secret annullments don't make any sense. The one theory I've heard for how Rhaegar can marry Lyanna is via a Targaryen ceremony permitting polygamy a la Maegor. No heart tree is required for that. Lyanna believes in the old gods, there marriage in the books will be separate from the Septon. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: You are overlooking the role of Rhaegar & Jaqen in each story! They are both present in the story. Rhaegar is the noble father who had a second wife. Aegon is the perspective from which we see him and his mother. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: We never hear of any baby being taken away, this is just another thing you made up that's not in the text. It has not been revealed yet, but is fairly obvious from what is established. Aegon is alive. Young Griff is not Aegon. Gregor killed a baby. So there is a third baby that died. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Ha, quote an example. I don't think you can. Why, AGOT is a long book, you can read it for yourself. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Please stick closer to the text. You fly off far from it while claiming various things are "established" that other readers don't believe. They are still established. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Dead he may be, but unlike Jaqen, he was actually crowned as king by the remaining Targaryen loyalists. People did not know that Aegon VI lived. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: That's true for YG, but we never hear of Jaqen making any such claim. Trying to hatch a dragon is making a claim on his birth right. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Whether it will happen and whether it will "work" are actually two separate things (which the show itself illustrated). For it to happen they would have to love each other (that is the prophecy). I have explained why the two personalities would not fall in love, that goes against what is established in the text. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: There is no other name he gives a son in the text. We actually have no reason to believe he expected an additional son, rather than another sister for his Aegon (just as Aegon I had two sisters). So the most likely name he had in mind would seem to be Visenya. He would have two names prepared, for a boy or a girl. Aemon was the name for a boy. He is born with a cock, so he is a boy, Lyanna knows this and names him. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: That's Gilly, not some other character with some other child. Aemon doesn't journey with Sam & Gilly on the show like he did in the books. The show follows the books, but changes major character roles by merging them. The baby Gilly has is name after Jon in both the books and show. The books are clever by having Aemon and Jon share the same name. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: He actually doesn't say that specifically. His origin story for the HoBaW suggests otherwise. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Those are very different things. One is keeping a promise he actually agreed to fulfill, the other was just someone predicting an occurrence before he was even born. He is has knowledge of the prediction of his birth. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: If she blames herself, is vengeance really her motivation? Throwing herself out of the tower wouldn't achieve that. And under your theory, she still hasn't killed herself! She tried to kill herself and failed. So then she thought to kill herself to take Vengeance for Rhaegar's family. Remember, she loved Elia and Rhaegar, and wished to take vengeance for them. But then she meets Rhaegar's son, Aegon. She tells him so that he may be the agent of vengeance. Her life dedicated to the HoBaW is now as penance for her sins. Notice her grief has subsided since those first days after the sack, and time heals all wounds. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Who was the contract taken out on, and how long has it been since the contract was agreed to? There was no contract because she did not die. Rather than give her life, she would wait for Aegon to take vengeance on them all. Not just one person, but all of them. This is the Valonqar who will take "all Cersei holds dear". On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: This is another thing you've made up. If Ashara had advance knowledge of what was going to happen in the Riverlands (since she presumably wasn't there herself, and specifically had probably been sent home to Starfall by that point), she could have gotten a raven to Brandon ahead of time, preventing Lyanna from being taken in the first place. Instead Lyanna disappears, and only after that does Brandon react. She didn't have advanced knowledge. She only tells Brandon he [Rhaegar] means to use Lyanna, she doesn't know he actually would. She is using Brandon to split Lyanna from Rhaegar (for Elia's sake). The kidnaping happens a year later, Ashara has no idea that it would actually happen nor when/where. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, she was never in service to him rather than Elia. She wishes to help Elia and HER husband. Both of them. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Agreed, that's what Barristan blames himself for. He gives no indication that he thinks Ashara caused any of the things you ascribe to her. He somewhat indicts Ashara. He wished she wouldn't go to Brandon and whisper the poison in his ears about Rhaegar. Ashara is the one who first sets Brandon against Rhaegar, which eventually leads to the war. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Being a mix of lies & truth doesn't mean I should replace it with some other story you made up. Instead Arya thinks one specific element (the percentage paid) may have been fudged. And then she asks, "what was the lie". The waif said she lied about the lie. The Arya asks, "or was it all a lie". Much of it was a lie, but the best lie has bits of truth in it. It was a lie as regards herself, but it is the truth when referencing Aegon VI. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No, Ashara's father is not Rhaegar! Ashara isn't an only child or an heir either. Yes, this is a perspective change. It is referencing Aegon's father. The narration shifts (this is the lie in the truth. But it is telling the same story, just from different perspectives). On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Assuming Jon is #3, he hasn't been given in payment at all! "He gave up all his wealth" for vengeance. Jon and Aegon uphold the memory of their father, even though both had no clue who he was. They are suppose to enact vengeance, but of course Rhaegar would not have known the truth was to be hidden from both his kids. (Ilyrio fostered one, Ned the other. Neither were friends of Rhaegar Targaryen). On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Nobody describes them as "ghostly". "haunting". On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Pale skin is considered beautiful among Westerosi ladies. The atypical thing about her is how beautiful she is, in the eyes of basically everybody. Her beauty is special. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: The picture shows what color hair & eyes she had. We know Lemore has different colored hair, and the lack of mention of purple eyes is perhaps the most common argument against her being Ashara Dayne. Hair colors can be dyed. And notice, Tyrion says YG eyes can shift between blue and purple depending on the time of day. Lemore is the same, her eyes aren't striking purple, but she has the Lyseni look. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Your evidence is terribly unconvincing, for reasons I have explained. Please go back and try to understand the perspective of someone who doesn't buy your theory (because most people don't) rather than responding again on the assumption that your evidence is convincing. They are all good and well, I listed them for ease of reference. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: That lesson comes from Nettles, which GRRM actually wrote about, unlike your imagined scene with Arya in the future (which doesn't even correspond to a scene in the show, as Arya never tamed a dragon there). And are you saying Dany doesn't have Targaryen blood? Dany is a Targaryen. The image of Arya marrying a dragon and taming one is clear and obvious (massive white lizard hissing against the chain isn't subtle). On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: He didn't say it wasn't the case that Olenna poisoned Joffrey, nor that there was even a reveal specific to that subplot remaining. He said he has more books and "may have" more surprises. He usually avoids confirming anything, so he was unusually explicit in saying we should conclude it was Olenna. He said the careful reader would assume it is Olenna, but he is making no promises. Olenna is the poisoner, but she had help from a person we have not been told about yet. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: The stranger didn't actually do anything, the Hand killed people and raped Mercy's character. The Stranger is the one behind the scene pulling the strings, just like the Valonqar. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: That's true without poisoning. There is more, it is fairly obvious Oberyn poisoned him. It happened at the dinner in the solar. Widow's blood is brought up at random, and it fits the state the body was in during AFFC. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Tyrion doesn't think that, for he knows his father is a human and humans defecate. We know better. Read about Widow's blood. He was having trouble in the privy, and it comes out after he dies. That is why his body stinks so much/ On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Sitting, technically, and Tywin himself didn't seem to have any such notion. With Tywin & Oberyn both dead, how would you even expect such information to be revealed? From the Valonqar. He helped both Olenna and Oberyn. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: No it doesn't! It says the valonqar will wrap his hands around her throat after her tears have drowned her. The one who will cast her down is "another, younger and more beautiful" who is NOT said to be a valonqar. Instead the most logical parsing of "another" is that it refers to another queen, who would logically not be a brother (little or otherwise). We've been over this. The Valonqar is the same person. Actually though, beautiful is used multiple times to refer to Rhaegar in Cersei's chapter. This is a person Cersei finds most beautiful, and that person is related to Rhaegar. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Why would Maggie refer to the fake as a valonqar? It is how prophecies work. Her children will all die in the name of Aegon VI, the Valonqar. Connington will kill Tommen and Myrcella in the name of the Valonqar. On 12/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: This is you making something up. Again, no one has said that. Stop repeating it. Again, beauty is subjective. This is someone beautiful according to Cersei. Now ask yourself, he is a younger version of another person? Their offspring. Who is a younger version of yourself? Your offspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 On 12/14/2020 at 3:53 PM, butterweedstrover said: Let us put it this way. Their characters are parallels, but their situation is inversed What does that mean? Alleras isn't being sent away from a penal colony. Quote Father is Dornish, Aegon's mother is Dornish. If Aegon's father & Alleras' mother have no logical relation, then it's not truly an inverse or parallel. It's just different. Quote I should have told you before hand, but among my inner circle I go by the name: the truth teller. Does your inner circle consist of your imaginary friends? Like Eric Cartman's stuffed animals who insist he's not fat at all? Quote Because you see, I reveal truths. I am the revealer. Not just as regards ASOIAF, but many other things as well. I have a knack for deductions. I deduce, and I discover. Only in your own mind. From what I've seen, you've repeatedly gotten things demonstrably wrong. Quote Oberyn's bastard? Why? Why does the mystery Aemon told us about have to do with her? What "mystery" are you talking about? Aemon said the sphinx was the riddle not the riddler, then Sam encounters Alleras, known as the Sphinx. Sam saw a statue of a male & female sphinx, which could get him thinking that Alleras might be a female posing as a male. None of that applies to "Pate". He doesn't even have multicolored hair, which you have nonsensically said is a reference to his mixed parentage. Quote Dany was not mentioned as the head of the dragon, she was mentioned as the prince who was promised. Rhaegar thought the Prince That Was Promised (his son Aegon) was also one of the three heads of the dragon. The Targaryen sigil is a three-headed dragon, and they didn't have a sigil before they came to Westeros because that's a Westerosi custom. Aegon I had two sisters, and all three of them had dragons. The three-headed dragon thus represents Aegon, Rhaenys & Visenya. Rhaegar named his children Rhaenys & Aegon because he thought they were to be two out of the three heads of the dragon, to which there must be one more (presumably to be named Visenya). Quote Whenever Dany is mentioned in regards to three dragons/three heads, she is the mother, she is above the three, not a part. Dany is specifically bonded to one dragon, Drogon, which she rides. The other two dragons await other "heads" to bond to. Quote The Sphinx is not a head of the dragon. Alleras is a Sphinx and he is not a head of the dragon. The two are not related. I agree! Alleras is not a head of the dragon, and Jaqen is neither a sphinx nor a head of the dragon. Quote "His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel’s main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx." A bit of this and a bit of that. Different colors, different shades, different blood. Onyx doesn't actually specify what specific color the eyes were. It's entirely compatible with being colored similarly to Alleras' skin. Quote In the story, a nightingale and a rose are not exclusive to the prince. His kingdom is poor, but these are his prized possessions. Aren't those specific items owned by him? Or are they communally owned by the entire kingdom? Is he trying to scrape together enough money to purchase the rose? Quote Nothing could be more obvious There are in fact many things obvious enough for the vast majority of readers to agree on, and you can find those things stated as facts on the wiki. You evidently have no idea what "obvious" is. Quote You see and can think for yourself. And I have repeatedly rejected your arguments. Quote Most who are shown the reference understand how clear and obvious it is. What I've seen is nobody else here agreeing with you, and instead people expressing surprise that CamiloRP was willing to waste time talking to you at all. Quote The alchemist wore a hooded traveler’s cloak, brown and nondescript." Nondescript means it's not notable. Yet you take the opposite conclusion from his utterly generic cloak. Quote Sam joins the same fellowship at the end of AFFC (Pate, Leo, Alleras, etc.). Sam was also a member of the fellowship in LOTR. These are UTTERLY different fellowships. LOTR forms one up in the first book, where they are united in their goal of preventing Sauron from obtaining the ring so he can be defeated. In AFFC we've got a group introduced in the fourth book, containing zero characters we've encountered in the first three books, and they're not united for any shared goal. In fact Leo seems practically antagonistic toward the rest of the group, and Pate plans on abandoning them. Quote https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/5/5f/Strider_in_Prancing_Pony_-_FOTR.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20121003045004 That appears as a grayscale image with generic landscape looking icon. Quote Ahh, the truth reveals itself in time. There is no hiding from its glare. I wish, but fools like you can persist indefinitely. Quote The riddle is there for you to solve The next book isn't for me to "solve", GRRM is actually making stuff up as he goes along. Otherwise he would have finished writing it long ago. Quote I have explained the answer, as it fits with everything else I have developed for you through meticulous reading. Your reading is not "meticulous", it's just grabbing anything you think you can fit into your crackpot theory and ignoring how so much fails to actually fit. Quote If the Sphinx were a reference to dual genders, then it would be a female disguised as a male, not two separate entities. How easily could that be represented via a statue? Quote His hair is already White. That of a Targaryen. So shouldn't he just dye the other half the color of a Martell? Quote He dyed the other side red for his mother, for house Martell. The red sun. The color red is not uniquely associated with house Martell. The Lannisters also use it, as it's the background of their sigil. Quote No, I am talking about the three prophecies. That blue flower is part of the prophetic vision she has in the HotU. What do you think it's for? Quote Daario is suppose to establish the characteristics of this finale lover (colorful charming rogue). He appeals to the immature Dany, but she gradually matures over the course of the books, and even sends him away. Sansa also starts out immature (though to a greater degree) and in love with Joffrey. Quote Did he, where was she set up with Gendry? That's a case of something being obvious to everyone BUT you. Quote In Harrenhall, Gendry was made out to be Robert. She came there with him, but then she found another she preferred. No, but she didn't express a preference to Jaqen over Gendry. She continues with Gendry afterward and never meets Jaqen again. She splits with Gendry because the Brotherhood insisted on moving her around as a hostage. Quote In the Mercy chapter, it is shown she is sleeping in his old room. No, it's not said whose old room it was. Quote Jaqen is a false identity, not a real person. You can't prove that just by repeatedly asserting it, and there's no point in making a logical deduction from something you still haven't established. Quote He abandoned the Facelessmen to come to Westeros and recclaim his birthright. He never says anything about abandoning the FM or reclaiming any birthright. He places his kills in a religious context (an Essosi rather than Westerosi one), as do the FM, and he encourages Arya to join the FM. Quote This is how it is phrased in the book: "Is the girl worth a dragon?" That fits the latter (exchange one for the other) not the former (have cake & eat it too). Quote It is a common device use to signify the dragon egg at the citadel No one has said anything about there being a dragon egg at the citadel. Quote Pate wants a dragon. Not as an end in itself, but only to exchange. Quote Pate is referenced to as a hidden prince No he isn't. Quote Notice this line: "Pate had to follow or lose Rosey and the dragon both, forever" He would lose both, he needs both. One is necessary for the other. Failing to obtain the dragon means he can't exchange it for Rosey, but after he makes that exchange, he will just have Rosey and NOT the dragon. Quote They are in the same position No they're not. Rhaegar was a prince, one of the highest status and most admired people in Westeros. He was married and had two children already. Pate is a nobody who hasn't even advanced in his studies at the Citadel (which, if complete, would prohibit him from marrying at all). Quote He is a thief. You can deny basic language, all you want YOU are the one denying basic language. Characters don't use the word "thief" that way. Quote The Great Shepherd is not a real deity, it is a plot device. It IS a deity within this fictional world. GRRM takes inspiration from real world religions, so that animism loosely inspires the Old Gods, the Catholic Church and the Trinity inspired the Faith of the Seven, Manicheanism & Zoroastrianism inspired R'hllorism, and the three heads of the Great Shepherd are inspired by the Hindu trimurti. The way that you are using it isn't even a "plot device", because you evidently don't know what a plot device is. Hint: what impact on the PLOT has that artwork had? This is yet more reason for me to doubt your claim that English is your first language. The alternative only speaks more poorly of your ignorance. Quote Otherwise he would not withhold information about the middle head if it were just an info dump about some made-up lore. Have you ever heard of a "mystery religion"? The Druze are a notable long-lived example, but Scientology is also notorious for tenets that only people of sufficiently high "level" are permitted to know. Quote There is a head the devours the dying. And there is a head from which the reborn head comes. The third head isn't spitting out itself, but instead the formerly devoured dying. Quote Azor Ahai reborn comes from Jon Is he going to give birth to himself, like in the movie "Spring"? Quote Arya devours worms, which are symbols of dragons. She devours the dragon. So, what, does that mean: is she going to kill a dragon? Quote Why, didn't I provide all the textual evidence? As I have said, you are terrible at providing evidence, as you don't actually seem to understand what constitutes valid evidence. Quote In the show, it was. When they infodumped R+L=J it was enmeshed with stuff I find completely implausible as well as things even you don't believe (although your reasoning was erroneous). The show was not going to get into the details of Westerosi marriage law, as they had Sansa openly married to Ramsay despite her already being married to Tyrion. It was just simplifying things because they were in a rush to get everything over with. Quote Not least of all having a child out of wedlock would be a disservice to Lyanna Ser Duncan the Tall teaches Egg that merely being a bastard is not actually a mark against one's character, and indeed Dunk himself goes on to do great things. The Hull boys in the Dance also act to prove the worth of bastards. It would actually be in keeping with that for Jon to truly be a bastard, although I'd prefer if he wasn't of noble birth at all. Quote And Rhaegar saw himself as noble, and this child was to be his third head. Is there a rule that says the third head can't be a bastard? Aegon I chose a bastard as his right hand. Quote "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?" Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." That's the reason Cersei actually gives for hating Robert. Here is what she recalls happened before that: Quote The day she wed Robert Baratheon, thousands had turned out to cheer for them. All the women wore their best, and half the men had children on their shoulders. When she had emerged from inside the sept, hand in hand with the young king, the crowd sent up a roar so loud it could be heard in Lannisport. "They like you well, my lady," Robert whispered in her ear. "See, every face is smiling." For that one short moment she had been happy in her marriage . . . until she chanced to glance at Jaime. No, she remembered thinking, not every face, my lord. Quote Yes, they married under the old gods. Polygamy isn't permitted in the North either. And Rhaegar had already married under the Seven... who prohibit polygamy. Quote He didn't, GRRM. GRRM isn't a character in the story, so this is yet another example of you failing to take into account WHICH CHARACTER is saying a particular thing. YG heard this story from someone, most likely Illyrio, who would in turn cite Varys as the source of it. And a character relaying a story in which Arbor gold is referenced does not mean the story itself which they are relaying is a lie. Quote The usage of the pisswater prince and the arbor gold was no mistake. GRRM didn't make a mistake, you did. Quote In this story, they are the messengers that come to instigate revenge. NO, they are NEVER referred to as such. Instead they are explicitly said to be healers. I am talking about the actual text, not the nonsense you've replaced it with in your head. Quote He gives him the means of death. If the contents of the cup were the means of death, then the Hand himself would die... but he doesn't. Quote Olenna poisoned Joffrey as Oberyn did Tywin but they were given the means by another. Yes regarding Olenna, no regarding Oberyn. We know where Olenna got the poison: from Sansa's hairnet. And we know where Sansa got the hairnet from: Dontos Hollard (who can't secretly be Jaqen because he was in KL while Jaqen was in Harrenhall). Dontos works for LF, who arranged the poisoning beforehand with Olenna. Jaqen doesn't fit anywhere in there, and the conspirators would have no reason to include/require a latecomer to the conspiracy, even if Jaqen wasn't too busy to take part (and I think he was). Tywin was killed by Tyrion, still alive and apparently capable of sex well after Oberyn's death (and further after you claim Tywin was poisoned). Nor had Tywin given any indication he was poisoned. Quote So quick you say no. Yes, and you just completely ignored my explanation about how she gives a long list of people to test if he'd be willing to kill them. The reason the king comes last is because that's the highest ranking person in Westeros (and presumably difficult to assassinate) and Arya really would like it if Joffrey were killed for executing her father. Jaqen having himself named is the one thing he's unwilling to fulfill, and hence will go along with Arya's plan as an alternative so he can be released of his vow. If he were actually motivated by birthright rather than religion, I don't think he'd be that hung up on vows and what deaths he owes her. Quote If he was playing the role of a real person, or if Arya was playing the role of the real Weasel, they would not behave like themselves. You don't know what it would mean for Jaqen to behave "like himself". Quote None of that has to do with him altering his speech for clarity (otherwise he would not speak that way). When he says "a man" he is referencing himself through context. Otherwise he would not speak like that. He normally speaks in the Lorathi manner, because that's how a Lorathi would speak. But he knows how the Westerosi talk and can speak that way if necessary, just as a Lorathi could. He's not saying something off the cuff (and Arya hasn't even brought up a king yet), he's very deliberately swearing something. Quote It is wholly consistent, it is brilliant in fact. You aren't capable of determining whether your own reasoning is "brilliant". It is a common truism that no man may be a judge in his own case. You disregard such truisms because you are a fool, and because you are a fool you'd be a poor judge of anything even if you weren't the one being judged. Quote You're capacity to twist and turn words until they mean nothing is remarkable. I'm not the one "twisting" words, I'm taking them to mean what they normally mean. You are the one trying to twist them into a predetermined shape. Quote To Tyrion at least. Why would she say any of that to Tyrion? Quote He was thinking about his son when he did so. He only has one real son (Young Griff) but he remembers Aegon more. That wouldn't cause him to send them to the wrong person unless he's so absent-minded he got them confused. Quote Aegon will. That is the promise. There is no such promise in the text, you are making stuff up again, and I am more than tired of it. Quote They are both present in the story. Rhaegar is the noble father who had a second wife. Did his second wife try to kill his child? And was that child the Waif? Quote It has not been revealed yet It's another thing you made up. Quote Aegon is alive. Young Griff is not Aegon. That combination is not at all established. There was no reason to believe Aegon was alive up until YG showed up. Quote Why, AGOT is a long book, you can read it for yourself. HAHAHA! I know the book doesn't support your claim! Otherwise you would be able to find a quote! Quote People did not know that Aegon VI lived. You can't be king if nobody knows you exist. Quote Trying to hatch a dragon is making a claim on his birth right. It's never been established that he is trying to do that, nor that he has a dragon egg. Quote He would have two names prepared, for a boy or a girl No, he didn't have anything prepared for being wrong. He stated outright that he would make changes when he returned from the Battle of the Trident, he didn't say anything about what would happen if he didn't. And his family died because he didn't take steps to protect them on his defeat. Quote Lyanna knows this and names him We haven't gotten Lyanna giving a name at all, nor reason to think she'd be especially invested in Targaryen names, or that name specifically. Quote The show follows the books, but changes major character roles by merging them. The baby Gilly has is name after Jon in both the books and show. The show didn't give any support to your theory. It's written according to what's convenient to the writers, and they discard anything they don't feel like using. It's not intended to give secret clues to stuff that's in the books but not the show. Quote The books are clever by having Aemon and Jon share the same name. You can't give credit to the books for something that hasn't happened in them. Quote His origin story for the HoBaW suggests otherwise. The origin story just involves granting death to a slave. But if the dead aren't staying dead, and the dragons are connected, wouldn't it be obligatory to find out how to kill the dragons? Quote He is has knowledge of the prediction of his birth. Another thing that hasn't been established and that you just made up. And not only is it also not established that the Waif is Ashara, it's never established that Ashara knows about that! Quote She tried to kill herself and failed. I don't think it's quite so difficult that she needed the FM to do it. Quote So then she thought to kill herself to take Vengeance for Rhaegar's family How would killing herself constitute taking vengeance for Rhaegar's family? Quote Remember, she loved Elia and Rhaegar, and wished to take vengeance for them. I don't "remember" that because the text never says that. Quote But then she meets Rhaegar's son, Aegon. She tells him so that he may be the agent of vengeance. When does that happen? And why isn't she already dead by then if she sought to kill herself? Quote Her life dedicated to the HoBaW is now as penance for her sins. "Sins" that you just made up, as it's not in the text either. Quote There was no contract because she did not die. Rather than give her life, she would wait for Aegon to take vengeance on them all. But by your hypothesis, Aegon was at Illyrio's for years. What was she doing in the HoBaW for all that time and why wasn't she dead? Quote Not just one person, but all of them. This is the Valonqar who will take "all Cersei holds dear". "The" implies just one, unless "valonqar" can be a plural noun so the phrase would be "the little brothers". Quote She only tells Brandon he [Rhaegar] means to use Lyanna, she doesn't know he actually would. She is using Brandon to split Lyanna from Rhaegar (for Elia's sake). The kidnaping happens a year later Brandon's actions aren't indicative of him having any extra knowledge: everyone who saw was shocked by Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. And Ashara had no special knowledge about Rhaegar's plans as far as we know. Instead it seems like Rhaegar hadn't encountered Lyanna before the tourney and no one had ever seen them interact. If Brandon had knowledge that Rhaegar was going to attempt something, I think more steps would have been taken to prevent what happened a year later. Quote She wishes to help Elia and HER husband. Both of them. This is just you asserting something without any basis in the text, yet again. Just stop it. Quote He somewhat indicts Ashara. NO, HE NEVER DOES THAT, LEARN TO READ. Quote He wished she wouldn't go to Brandon and whisper the poison in his ears about Rhaegar. Barristan never thinks any such thing, instead he only thinks highly of Ashara and wishes he could have crowned her. If she had secret knowledge about Lyanna, Barristan crowning Ashara wouldn't prevent her from telling Brandon! Quote Ashara is the one who first sets Brandon against Rhaegar, which eventually leads to the war. No, RHAEGAR is the one whose actions set Brandon against him. Brandon reacts as soon as Rhaegar crowns Lyanna, he's not doing anything against him beforehand. You keep inserting characters as causal agents when the story we've got already explains why things happened without them. Quote Much of it was a lie, but the best lie has bits of truth in it. It was a lie as regards herself, but it is the truth when referencing Aegon VI. Even your version of her story is not "the truth when referencing Aegon VI". Aegon VI was not poisoned by his father's second wife. Quote Yes, this is a perspective change. It is referencing Aegon's father. It's just you making stuff up, and being inconsistent to boot. Quote Jon and Aegon uphold the memory of their father, even though both had no clue who he was. HOW!? And you had been claiming Aegon DOES know about his father! Quote "haunting". That's not the same thing as "ghostly". People who remember how she died tragically are haunted by that memory, but in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree she has "laughing" eyes. Quote And notice, Tyrion says YG eyes can shift between blue and purple depending on the time of day. Lemore is the same, her eyes aren't striking purple, but she has the Lyseni look. No, Tyrion NEVER thinks to himself that Lemore's eyes look like YG's. You'd think that would have been a time for him to think of that connection! Quote The image of Arya marrying a dragon and taming one is clear and obvious (massive white lizard hissing against the chain isn't subtle). She wasn't marrying Biter either. Quote Olenna is the poisoner, but she had help from a person we have not been told about yet. As I said, we already know who she got the poison from. Quote The Stranger is the one behind the scene pulling the strings, just like the Valonqar. No, the valonqar is never said to be "behind the scenes pulling the strings". He's said to have his hands wrapped direclty around Cersei's throat! Quote Widow's blood is brought up at random, and it fits the state the body was in during AFFC. It's brought up because it's one of the things Pycelle has in his cabinet which Tyrion accessed. Tyrion actually did dose Cersei with a laxative, which is the opposite of widow's blood. Quote We know better. Read about Widow's blood. He was having trouble in the privy, and it comes out after he dies. None of that is information Tyrion doesn't have. Quote That is why his body stinks so much/ Dead bodies don't smell good, generally speaking. Quote We've been over this. The Valonqar is the same person And I keep arguing with you because you simply assert something, even if your assertion initially depended on an erroneous assumption about two separate statements being in the same sentence. Quote It is how prophecies work. Her children will all die in the name of Aegon VI, the Valonqar. What other prophecies work on that "in the name of" logic? Quote Who is a younger version of yourself? Your offspring. No, Arya is not a younger version of Catelyn or Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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