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Canon Claude

The Dragon Requires Three Books

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9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Thing is they added the Night King which tells me there was nothing grand enough in the books to translate to screen.  

It more about what the show did do than what it didn't do. 

So, what does them not including any of the 'important' parts tell you?

Also, something being not cinematic doesn't mean it isn't important, if you look at George's bibliography he has several non-cinematic endings that are still the point of the story, Armageddon Rag ends with the protagonist deciding to do nothing, In The House Of The Worm ends with the protagonist realizing that the species human where waring against (the Grouns) where humans the whole time, and that the salvation for humanity would be making peace and breeding with them, yet he goes back to his city and becomes a clown to everyone else, that doesn't mean the Grouns weren't important to the story.

 

9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Stannis will probably be important as well. My point the main plot isn't going to boil down to a conflict with a bunch of ice zombies we've barely heard of. The real conflict will be with the mysteries that are already part of the world. 

We've heard more about the ice zombies than about Summerhall, The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy, the Valonqar and Shiera Seastar combined.

Jon's story is about the Others, and his story has had 42 chapters (second only to Tyrion's 49, and first if you count Sam's 10). We learn about the Other's before we learn about almost anything else, the first characters we meet are brothers of The Night's Watch, and Other's are references throughout the story even in non northerner POVS, if all of this came to nothing, then the story would be... bad.

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7 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Nope. "Ice" for their blade and "Snow" for their bastards. 

it was just a joke on how it sounds

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6 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

We've heard more about the ice zombies than about Summerhall, The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy, the Valonqar and Shiera Seastar combined.

Jon's story is about the Others, and his story has had 42 chapters (second only to Tyrion's 49, and first if you count Sam's 10). We learn about the Other's before we learn about almost anything else, the first characters we meet are brothers of The Night's Watch, and Other's are references throughout the story even in non northerner POVS, if all of this came to nothing, then the story would be... bad.

Yeah, but what do we know about them? 

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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, but what do we know about them? 

A whole lot more than what we know about Summerhall, TGOHH, The Valonqar and Shiera Seastar.

A whole lot more than we knew about the Grouns by In The House Of The Worm's end, and we still have two books to go. That's the whole point of it, we know their name is a curse word, we know they steal babies, we know they bring the cold and that they seem to OP to beat, we can guess The Wall was built for them, but we also know they speak they laugh, they seem to have friends, social structure and be capable of negotiating, they are shrouded in mystery to make them look more tenebrous, so we (and Westerosi) are prone to fear and hate them, same as the Freefolk, we learn little about them at first, they where savages who rape and pillage, they eat human flesh, no civilization, we learn the giants have kings and eat human flesh as well, but then everything changes, the freefolk are just people with different customs, the giants have no kings and are vegetarians. We thought they where the enemy till we knew them, we thought they where savages till we learnt how their society works, we thought they meant to pillage Westeros, but it turns out they just wanted to be safe. Ignorance is the enemy, once we know each other, once we relate, then we top being "others" that's (IMNSHO) why  George named the Others after the anthropological "other" a term that is used to mean a member of an out group, someone with lacking identity, a "less than" human, sometimes even an unknown. 

This way the Others carry the theme of ASOIAF, othering, lack of empathy, is what causes hate, it's what causes war, it's what causes suffering, it's what will doom us, after all "Ice and Fire" was a mocking poem about how war will kill us all. 

The northerners thought they where worth "ten southron swords", and Ned thought himself morally superior to the Lannisters, which is why it was so easy for LF to manipulate him. Yet, when it came down to it, Jaimie turned out to be a honorable man and the Lannisters as good fighters as the Starks.

Most of Westeros sees the Northerners as a bunch of savages, yet we know it isn't so, a similar thing happens with Dorne, and what I already explained with the Freefolk. 

But we, the reader, know those things aren't so, we don't have that luxury with the Others, but we will.

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First of all, I like both houses (Stark and Targaryen too) a lot, but house Targaryen a bit more. Yet these two, from my pov, matter equally. I mean, in the prophetic way. These two are the ice and fire.

And yes, the Others are the big threat.

I don't know people can see this a different way.

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19 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, well they are the perspective we see the world through. Their naivete and growth is us the reader. But they are not the main plot.

How many chapters has the "main plot" gotten? Were Catelyn & Eddard there for "naivete and growth"? Because the Lannisters are older & less naive than the Stark kids, would you say they are the "main plot"? How about them vs Dany?

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The books have told us time and time again the prince who was promised is what set off this chain of events. 

How many times is "time and time again"?

19 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The part about the show was this: they made up the Night King and the final battle. So we can assume whatever George told them about the Others wasn't big enough for the TV screen.

NO. The show's version of Blackwater was smaller than the version in the books (GRRM had to repeatedly revise his script for that episode to scale it down), due to practical/budget constraints of filming. Mance's attack on the Wall was condensed to fit that episode. GRRM began by writing a series which wouldn't have the limits of television, not being "big enough" TV hasn't been the issue. Rather, even HBO budgets aren't big enough for his imagination.

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The main thrust of the plot, Aegon VI, Euron

Neither Aegon VI nor Euron even appeared in the first three books. Even an "architect" rather than a "gardener" wouldn't have the confidence to keep their "main characters" off-stage until the fourth/fifth book.

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and some intrigue at KL

That does take up a very large portion of the text so far.

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as well as Arya/Dany is what its all about.

I'm glad you at least included Arya there. What makes her different from the other Starks? That she's gotten more chapters? She's actually #3 across all characters, with Tyrion at #1 & Jon Snow at #2.

19 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Thing is they added the Night King which tells me there was nothing grand enough in the books to translate to screen.

The Others don't have a "load bearing boss" in the books right now. There is no obvious way to defeat them all in one fell swoop. Inventing one made it easier to wrap up the show, which D&D insisted on doing earlier than GRRM wanted.

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My point the main plot isn't going to boil down to a conflict with a bunch of ice zombies we've barely heard of

I believe GRRM himself has said that the political struggle is just a distraction from the more important threat from the Others. And in his original pitch letter, the third/final book was going to be about the conflict with them.

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

they seem to have friends, social structure and be capable of negotiating

I don't think there's quite enough evidence for that.

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11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think there's quite enough evidence for that.

Somehow they negotiated with Craster, the situation in AGOTs prologue read like a dude and his friends laughing at some poor idiot, and how they talked and behaved seem human to me, of course that's only what I got from the text, and not a certainty, that's what I meant by "they seem".

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1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How many chapters has the "main plot" gotten? Were Catelyn & Eddard there for "naivete and growth"? Because the Lannisters are older & less naive than the Stark kids, would you say they are the "main plot"? How about them vs Dany? 

Yup, they are us the reader. They get POVs because they are how we see the world. The Lannisters are the starks 2.0 that developed organically around the third book. 

But the Targaryens were central since book 1. Not just Dany, but Rhaegar, Aegon VI, Jon, and a the prince that was promised. 

Don't believe me? 

Every character is deeply affected by Rhaegar. Robert was, Lyanna was, Dorne (the country), Cersei was (she wore a black dress studied with rubies when Robert dies), and the Daynes were (we'll get to them later). So was Ned. 

Rhaegar was affected by Summerhall, which was affected by the prophecy. All this is subtext but its there. 

Dany is interesting because she is direct to text rather than being a mysterious character who has played a role in everyone's life.  

There are a few mysteries here that should be looked at: Ashara Dayne, the lemon tree in Braavos, the three heads of the dragon, and Arya (very important character). There is a larger story at work here. 

The three eyed crow (Targaryen bastard) has been contacting Bran since the first book. Quaithe (Targaryen bastard) has been contacting Dany since the first book. 

And Arya. What is her name again? Her nickname that is, the one Jeyne uses. 

Well in her first chapter the book tells us: Horseface Arya. 

Horse... wild stark girl... brown hair instead of black... she is a parallel to Lyanna.  

Now what do we know about Lyanna? She was tied to the prophecy of the three heads of the dragon, and so is Arya. 

Arya is tied to the two descendants (living) of Rhaegar. Jon Snow and Aegon VI (he goes by different names throughout the first three novels). 

The Ghost of High Heart sees this and is terrified by Arya because she remembers the prophecy and Summerhall. Its there in the text. With Ned Dayne and the story of Wylla, with her time in Harrenhall, and her visit to the house of black and white (the waif, read her backstory again, you'll find out who she is). 

Tyrion may get more chapters, but he is not a destined being, he is just a character George likes to write about and offers and interesting perspective on the world. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How many times is "time and time again"? 

Many many many times. Subtext is used, not direct text. 

For point of reference how many times is it said that Lysa killed Jon Arryn? 

Its told through subtext. Like much of the book. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

NO. The show's version of Blackwater was smaller than the version in the books (GRRM had to repeatedly revise his script for that episode to scale it down), due to practical/budget constraints of filming. Mance's attack on the Wall was condensed to fit that episode. GRRM began by writing a series which wouldn't have the limits of television, not being "big enough" TV hasn't been the issue. Rather, even HBO budgets aren't big enough for his imagination. 

Two, or three things. The budget grew over the years. 

Second thing, if they wanted to they would just scale down the conflict in the books, instead they replaced it with an entirely new one. 

Why? Because there is no epic final battle. This isn't LOTR with an army of Orcs playing as the mindless bad guy that the realm has to unite against. Jon talking about a common enemy is a red herring, and a wink at the tropes and expectations of the fantasy audience. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Neither Aegon VI nor Euron even appeared in the first three books. Even an "architect" rather than a "gardener" wouldn't have the confidence to keep their "main characters" off-stage until the fourth/fifth book. 

They both did, in different ways. 

Aegon VI was there since the first book in the black cells. Euron has been Quiathe and Bloodraven's puppet since the first book. 

BTW, I don't think Euron is going to be the main villain, my point is that he is going to be important. 

Also the reason GRRM introduced a new cast in books four and five is because they are going to be important, and even replace much of the original cast when winter comes. Normal readers don't like this but its his books, he can do what he wants. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

I'm glad you at least included Arya there. What makes her different from the other Starks? That she's gotten more chapters? She's actually #3 across all characters, with Tyrion at #1 & Jon Snow at #2. 

Jon and Arya are different. One is Rhaegar's child, the other is tied to the prophecy (as I explain above). 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Others don't have a "load bearing boss" in the books right now. There is no obvious way to defeat them all in one fell swoop. Inventing one made it easier to wrap up the show, which D&D insisted on doing earlier than GRRM wanted. 

I agree. But again there will be no epic final battle of good vs evil in the books. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I believe GRRM himself has said that the political struggle is just a distraction from the more important threat from the Others. And in his original pitch letter, the third/final book was going to be about the conflict with them. 

We need to contextualize this. He means the stark vs Lannister feud. The magic in the north is important, just like the magic in the east (red god). Both will play a role in times to come. 

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

 

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14 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Why? Because there is no epic final battle. This isn't LOTR with an army of Orcs playing as the mindless bad guy that the realm has to unite against. Jon talking about a common enemy is a red herring, and a wink at the tropes and expectations of the fantasy audience. 

I agree with this a lot but the rest is just so bonkers 

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8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I agree with this a lot but the rest is just so bonkers 

Its all 100% true. 

The parts a put in speculation like how important the new cast will be I only theorize. 

But the claims I make are accurate.  

edit: I don't know if you have the books with you but read the waifs backstory and the harrenhall chapters in book 2.  

edit 2: Ok, I don't want harp on this. 

But the three heads of the dragon are a motif in the fourth book. Look at the three heads in Braavos and the arrows Alleras shoots. 

The scene is drenched in symbolism. Arya consumes the other heads, the dead apple.

She takes needle (the sword) from one of the sons, and the coin from the other. 

 

Edited by butterweedstrover

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5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Its all 100% true. 

The parts a put in speculation like how important the new cast will be I only theorize. 

But the claims I make are accurate.  

edit: I don't know if you have the books with you but read the waifs backstory and the harrenhall chapters in book 2. 

 

I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be true, but you make huge leaps and take them as absolute facts.

 

23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Every character is deeply affected by Rhaegar. Robert was, Lyanna was, Dorne (the country), Cersei was (she wore a black dress studied with rubies when Robert dies), and the Daynes were (we'll get to them later). So was Ned. 

You can make the same claim for Ned:

Robert was his bf, Lyanna his sister, Cersei is shown to be in books to come, the Daynes love him, a war started because he died. Other POVs that are deeply affected by him: Jon, Cat, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Theon, Jaimie, Dany (he saved her life) and even non POVs, Jorah, Stannis, Varys, LF, and a long etcetera. 

 

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Rhaegar was affected by Summerhall, which was affected by the prophecy. All this is subtext but its there. 

Still tho, Summerhall was barely mentioned.

 

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Quaithe (Targaryen bastard) 

We don't know that for sure

 

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Arya is tied to the two descendants (living) of Rhaegar. Jon Snow and Aegon VI (he goes by different names throughout the first three novels). 

We don't know for sure that either of them is the descendant of Rhaegar, and Arya has no ties to Aegon

 

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The Ghost of High Heart sees this and is terrified by Arya because she remembers the prophecy and Summerhall.

Or because she sees her future as an assassin?

 

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(the waif, read her backstory again, you'll find out who she is). 

I bet I won't, just maybe an unconfirmed theory

 

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Aegon VI was there since the first book in the black cells.

Citation needed.

 

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Euron has been Quiathe and Bloodraven's puppet since the first book. 

might be, tho unconfirmed, but still he's missing for the first three books 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Its all 100% true. 

The parts a put in speculation like how important the new cast will be I only theorize. 

But the claims I make are accurate. 

The claims you make are predicated on your own conjecture about what will happen, relying heavily on choices made in the show. You do seem to overlook parts of the text that don't fit with your claims. A Song of Ice and Fire is not a story about one family, the Targaryens. It is a story about the Stark children, Dany and Tyrion. We started the story with them, and the story will end with them, in all likelihood. That is my prediction. I would not claim that it is 100% fact, however, as this is George's story, not my own.

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41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

We need to contextualize this. He means the stark vs Lannister feud. The magic in the north is important, just like the magic in the east (red god). Both will play a role in times to come. 

That’s not “contextualising”, it’s twisting something into something else. 

Martin on the subject:

“The people in Westeros are fighting their individual battles over power and status and wealth," Martin said. "And those are so distracting them that they’re ignoring the threat of ‘winter is coming,’ which has the potential to destroy all of them and to destroy their world. And there is a great parallel there too, I think, what I see this planet doing here, where we’re fighting our own battles."

—-

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call “life.” 

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3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be true, but you make huge leaps and take them as absolute facts.

Well, there are some specific lines that are added which shouldn't be there if it weren't the case. 

I don't have the book so I can point some out: 

The wine and piss analogy, the arrows, the dead apple. 

Now for actual lines well... read the harrenhall chapters and spot parallels to the tourney of harrenhall. Then read the scene where Arya is under the heart tree. 

Also ned told Arya she will be queen (metaphorically). 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You can make the same claim for Ned:

Robert was his bf, Lyanna his sister, Cersei is shown to be in books to come, the Daynes love him, a war started because he died. Other POVs that are deeply affected by him: Jon, Cat, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Theon, Jaimie, Dany (he saved her life) and even non POVs, Jorah, Stannis, Varys, LF, and a long etcetera. 

Ned is a POV, Rhaegar isn't. Yet for some reason he pops up everywhere. 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Still tho, Summerhall was barely mentioned.

Subtext

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know that for sure 

In the forsaken sample chapter the woman standing next to Euron is the same fit as Quiathe in Dany's dreams. 

Also don't forget the mention of Marwyn in book 1.

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

We don't know for sure that either of them is the descendant of Rhaegar, and Arya has no ties to Aegon

Yeah she does, in book 2. Arya saves his life and he pledges to help her under the heart tree. She chooses him over the Baratheon (Robert/Gendry).

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Or because she sees her future as an assassin?

Not specific to the ghost of high heart. 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I bet I won't, just maybe an unconfirmed theory 

I wrote about somewhere here. 

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Citation needed. 

It's told to use in the prologue of AFFC.  

Pate's backstory, its impossible for George to have accidently added that.

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

might be, tho unconfirmed, but still he's missing for the first three books 

 

 

He doesn't have to be the big bad, but he is important. 

I don't think George is that afraid to make newer characters more important. 

Now this is just speculation (I could be completely wrong here): I think Darkstar is going to replace Jaime, I think Arianne is going to play as big a role as Sansa (ok maybe not), Young Griff is going to replace Cersei, Euron is going to replace Stannis, etc. 

But to what degree we will find out. 

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On 10/20/2020 at 3:21 PM, Canon Claude said:

First off, I really enjoyed reading "Fire & Blood," despite any flaws it might have. But one thing which worries me is the fact that we're only at the beginning of Aegon III's reign as an adult. And based on what we've learned about "Gyldayn", his history of House Targaryen will encompass all of House Targaryen's dynasty, up until Aerys' death and Robert's coronation. 

That means there's a LOT of Targaryen history to cover in just one more volume. Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor, Viserys II, Aegon IV, Daeron II, Aerys I, Maekar, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II. That's eleven Targaryen kings, some of whom have had reigns that could fill entire novels on their own if GRRM was so inclined. I honestly think he would need to write three volumes of F&B to give each of those kings enough room to breathe. Even the insignificant ones like Aerys I and Jaehaerys had to deal with Blackfyre Rebellions.

The only other way it makes sense would be for one or two kings to be omitted. Aegon V clearly has a series of his own to be fleshed out, so I'm sure GRRM will want to breeze over that. Though I'm not sure how he'll justify a gap like that in his "definitive history of House Targaryen."

I don't see this as a problem.  It means more books to enjoy.  Don't worry about spoilers because GM will be stingy with the details.

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s not “contextualising”, it’s twisting something into something else. 

Martin on the subject:

“The people in Westeros are fighting their individual battles over power and status and wealth," Martin said. "And those are so distracting them that they’re ignoring the threat of ‘winter is coming,’ which has the potential to destroy all of them and to destroy their world. And there is a great parallel there too, I think, what I see this planet doing here, where we’re fighting our own battles."

—- 

Yeah, I think he said somewhere in Winter people are going to die. But I doubt that has much to do with the walkers or the dead, they are a side affect to that. 

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call “life.” 

Separate quote. 

Could be true (again I only speculate), but "greatest danger" doesn't mean most important. 

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Jaqen is not Rhaegar’s son Aegon, and I will bet good money on it. That’s a huge leap, based on absolutely nothing but wishful thinking.

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaqen is not Rhaegar’s son Aegon, and I will bet good money on it. That’s a huge leap, based on absolutely nothing but wishful thinking.

Boo! I was waiting for them to reveal the punch line! You ruined it!

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaqen is not Rhaegar’s son Aegon, and I will bet good money on it. That’s a huge leap, based on absolutely nothing but wishful thinking.

I'm not wishful though, I'd be fine if it were someone else, but there are a few huge obstacles for it being someone else. 

1. The baby clothes in Ducks chest suggest the baby swap happened. 

2. YG is too young and he was added very late in the story 

3. Dany saw a door of black and white in her vision 

4. Aegon is the only one (of the potential suspects) to be described as regal and beautiful. Note this is how Cersei describes Rhaegar as well. 

5. He pledges himself under the heart tree to Arya (like Rhaegar and Lyanna), but there is peculiar line cut from the show: Arya accidently calls him a king and this is the first and only time his accent brakes 

6. The Pate backstory (it would not be written if the story wasn't true, I mean it's too specific). 

7. The dragon egg, YG doesn't have one. Dragon eggs are associated with the Targaryen heir  

Side note: red hair is for Elia, white hair is for Rhaegar.  

 

edit: for #6 

Here is the quote for reference: 

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows 

Edited by butterweedstrover

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