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The Dragon Requires Three Books

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8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why is it metaphorical? why isn't it just his backstory?

Because Pate is dead. His backstory is irrelevant. 

It's also true. But Pate's backstory also works as a metaphor for the person who is just about to kill him and take his identity. 

 

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why? cause you say it? every parallel you are drawing is based on evidence you made up. there's no reason to assume any of the "ageon backstory" you invented. 

It does since it works perfectly with everything else we know. 

Let me put it this way since you bring this up later: the alchemist (who we will get to) is the one who kills and takes Pate's identity. Not Robb or anyone else. 

So at the very least we have to see this metaphor relating to him. 

Now here is another piece of evidence for why the man called Jaqen/Alchemist is Aegon VI: 

Ilyrio's chest is filled with baby Aegon's favorite things from KL including his cloths and "candied ginger" 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Illyrio's_chests#:~:text=References and Notes-,Contents,There is armour.  

Young Griff rejects all this stuff, he has no attraction or connection to it. But in Harrenhall the man called 'Jaqen" is chewing Ginger much of the time (he has a preference for it). Now he is in the citadel looking for a dragon egg. 

Pate is a dead character, but much of his role when alive is metaphorical. He wants a "golden dragon" (Aegon wants a dragon egg), and his backstory is a metaphor for what Aegon/Jaqen/Alchemist has been up to in the last three books.

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

give me one piece of evidence for that. Not assumptions, not parallels, tangible evidence that aims at him being in the HOBAW.

Well this is reverse thinking. We can find out (through the evidence GRRM puts in the books) that the man called 'Jaqen' is Aegon VI. 

Well then he must have been sent over to the HOBAW (He can change faces and he has the coin). 

Which makes sense given that it is in Essos/Braavos and is a place people are sent to lose their identity. Varys and Ilyrio had Young Griff by know and they wanted to make him 'Aegon' so they needed to the real one to not be a problem.

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Guessing based on no evidence. 

I'm connecting the pieces of evidence. Vinegar is the taste of bitter rejection. So their rejection must have been a surprise.  

We know he ends up in the black cells, and Rugen is the undergaelor. 

Sending him to the wall would achieve the same thing as sending him to the HOBAW so Ilyrio and Varys probably thought that was a good idea. 

It could play out differently but that is the sequence of events. He comes from Braavos (the HOBAW) to KL and gets put in the black cell. That is what we know. Whether he had pitstops on the way we can't be sure. 

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

The parallels I draw have as much evidence as yours.

No, because its not relevant to the characters involved. Jaqen/Alchemist is the one that kills Pate. Not Robb or Ned or Daenerys. 

So it is his backstory that is involved. 

If you believe he is Aegon, then the backstory lines up perfectly. 

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Says who? 

The alchemist is the one who kills him, not anyone else.  

If you believe (like I do) that he I say he is, then the backstory lines up perfectly. If you don't the backstory still lines up perfectly. 

That entire prologue is drenched in metaphors, from the arrow to the apples. It was a very deliberate scene and the words were chosen carefully. 

It follows Jaqen's path in the first three books regardless of who you think he is.

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Since when is he trying to hatch a dragon egg?

This isn't just me who says this, many people assume that is why he is there. He killed Balon (remember Euron had a faceless man do it) for the dragon egg. Now he is in the citadel looking for the book that will help him crack the egg. 

There is more about Euron's contract that I think stands out, but that is for a later discussion.

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why didn't them jsut let him die at the hands of Gregor? Why didn't them just kill him instead of giving him to the HOBAW, why did they teach him of his lineage is they didn't want him to be king? why didn't they kill him instead of sending him to The Wall? What die Rorge and BIter have to do with him? 

Here is a few things we know: 

Rhaegar wanted the baby swap when he got back from the tower of joy (before the sack). Elia had to give up her child. This was shown with Jon switching Gilly and Dalla's baby. Remember the line about what another woman would do in that situation? That other woman was Elia. 

Why did he not send both children? Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy. Aegon was his true heir, and who he believed was the prince that was promised (curtsy of Dany's vision in the house of the undying).  

The baby that was swapped wasn't the pisswater boy (but that, again, is a story for later).

But the war is lost, and now Vary's and his childhood friend Ilyrio have a baby. Then much later Ilyrio's wife (I believe) has Young Griff. 

They want to make YG the new heir, and they figure after many years people won't mind the age discrepancy (obviously they don't since that is how the plan goes through). I think YG was added later by George so he could introduce the idea of a baby (and obviously the plot would change a bit). 

So they sent him to the house of black and white to get him to lose his identity, and then later the wall to do much the same. 

Why didn't they just kill him? I'm not sure, but I have a few ideas: 

1. They had plans for him later (I doubt this one). 

2. Varys was his kin (being a blackfyre) and thought kin slaying was accursed. 

3. Something to do with the prophecy. 

Either way they didn't want the boy dead.  

Rorge and Biter were just in the black cells as well.

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If YG is a fake, why does his chest of clothes point to the baby swap?

Because the items inside are from kingslanding and were part of baby aegon's collection. 

If they were brought over across the narrow sea that means they weren't left in KL when Tywin sacked the city, which means the baby swap happened. 

The baby cloths and candied ginger belong to baby aegon. That is not who YG is, so he takes to interest to these items. It is 'Jaqen' while in Harrenhall who chews on ginger and has the same preferences as baby Aegon.  

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why was he? 

Because that is what Rhaegar agreed to. After he died (Rhaegar that is) and the war was lost they had a powerful commodity. 

They probably (and again this is just speculation) weren't sure what to do with him until YG was born. 

You need to be 13 to join the HOBAW. 

However it played out here is what we do know: Aegon VI is sent across the narrow sea 

The war is lost. 

Aegon is then brought to the house of black and white 

He then returns to westeros 

He gets locked up in the black cells 

Arya saves his life. 

He returns to the house of black and white (he asks Arya to come with him). 

He has returned to Westeros by the time Arya arrives (The alchemist is in the citadel). 

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Why?

Why he thought they'd support him? 

There are plenty of factors. Maybe he was raised to see them as his foster parents, maybe they lied to him about his identity. 

A lot of things could have happened, we won't know until later. But regardless he either knew who he was all along, or he was told by the waif which brought him to pursue Ilyrio back to Kingslanding. 

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

No, you are absolutely guessing it.

Again there is plenty of evidence, and more. I am only recounting the story from what we have. 

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You are guessing that based on no evidence.

 

 

And I did this bullshit incredibly fast, so mnay more characters could fit, even better than Aegon or Robb.

 

There is a fundamental problem with this.  

None of those characters killed Pate. Only the alchemist did. Regardless of who you think he is, we should agree that this metaphor is applied to the person who is about to steal Pate's identity. 

It fills us in with what Jaqen has been doing in the first three books. And since we can deduce his identity, the picture, and the metaphor, becomes clear. 

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Because Pate is dead. His backstory is irrelevant. 

GRRM would have something to say to you "if you take out everything that's gratuitous or irrelevant you are left with the cliff notes version of the books, fuck the people who complain about gratuitous things." 

Most of the lines in the series are irrelevant, the feasts for example, that's the way he writes.

 

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It's also true. But Pate's backstory also works as a metaphor for the person who is just about to kill him and take his identity. 

That person being The Alchemist, whom we know nothing about, so 'the metaphor' is just your guess at what happened, there's nothing in the books to indicate any of it happened, so it would be a weird metaphor as it's a metaphor we have no chance of decoding, as the thing it's metaphoring is not in the series.

 

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It does since it works perfectly with everything else we know. 

No it doesn't! it involves Varys and Illyrio saving a baby just to get rid of him a few years later, and then it makes up a character so it fits, you see we know nothing about your "real Aegon", if he isn't Yg then we only know he was Rhaegar and Ellia's second son, he had a sister named Rhaenys, he was believed to be killed as a baby by Gregor Clegane, and he would be 18 in the current story, basically you have two things to identify him: his age and his likely valiryan looks (tho they could have changed throughout the years to something more dornish, as newborn babes start looking more like their fathers) but the thing is, you are matching it to a character that a) looks nothing like he's supposed to, b) is much older and c) can shapeshift, so there's nothing that matches.

 

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Let me put it this way since you bring this up later: the alchemist (who we will get to) is the one who kills and takes Pate's identity. Not Robb or anyone else. 

Exactly, The Alchemist, not Aegon, if you claim The Alchemist to be Aegon, then I can claim him to be Robb, and it fits the parallel, as I shown.

 

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So at the very least we have to see this metaphor relating to him. 

Now here is another piece of evidence for why the man called Jaqen/Alchemist is Aegon VI: 

Ilyrio's chest is filled with baby Aegon's favorite things from KL including his cloths and "candied ginger" 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Illyrio's_chests#:~:text=References and Notes-,Contents,There is armour.  

Young Griff rejects all this stuff, he has no attraction or connection to it. But in Harrenhall the man called 'Jaqen" is chewing Ginger much of the time (he has a preference for it). Now he is in the citadel looking for a dragon egg. 

So, they like similar food? that's it? does that mean that Jeyne Poole and Sweet Robin are the same person because they both love lemon cakes?

Also, why would Illyrio give Aegon 2 the candies Aegon 1 enjoys? If he does care fo rhim, why wouldn't he give him things he likes?

 

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Pate is a dead character, but much of his role when alive is metaphorical. He wants a "golden dragon" (Aegon wants a dragon egg), and his backstory is a metaphor for what Aegon/Jaqen/Alchemist has been up to in the last three books.

There's no indication that Aegon want's a dragon egg

 

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Well then he must have been sent over to the HOBAW (He can change faces and he has the coin). 

yes, that's Jaqen tho, without talking about him being Jaqen, what reason do we have to suspect he wen't to the HOBAW?

 

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Which makes sense given that it is in Essos/Braavos and is a place people are sent to lose their identity. Varys and Ilyrio had Young Griff by know and they wanted to make him 'Aegon' so they needed to the real one to not be a problem.

Evidence for this?

 

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Sending him to the wall would achieve the same thing as sending him to the HOBAW so Ilyrio and Varys probably thought that was a good idea. 

Then why would they wan't to send him to The Wall? sending him to the HOBAW didn't work, why would The Wall work?

 

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No, because its not relevant to the characters involved. Jaqen/Alchemist is the one that kills Pate. Not Robb or Ned or Daenerys. 

Yes, not Robb, or Ned, Or Dany, OR AEGON.

Your argument is completely circular: "he's Aegon because his backstory fits, this is his backstory because he's Aegon"

 

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It follows Jaqen's path in the first three books regardless of who you think he is.

No, because we don't know Jaqen's age, we don't know if he's been rejected by two masters, we don't know when he started at the HOBAW

how does it follow his path in the first three books?

 

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This isn't just me who says this, many people assume that is why he is there. He killed Balon (remember Euron had a faceless man do it) for the dragon egg. Now he is in the citadel looking for the book that will help him crack the egg. 

We'll that's a theory, not a fact, and even if Balon was killed by a faceless men, it was likely not Jaqen, as he keeps the same face he had when he left Harrenhall, and faceless men change it when they kill someone.

 

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Here is a few things we know: Rhaegar wanted the baby swap when he got back from the tower of joy (before the sack).

We don't know that at all, we have no clue Rhaegar was involved in the swap.

 

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Elia had to give up her child. This was shown with Jon switching Gilly and Dalla's baby. Remember the line about what another woman would do in that situation? That other woman was Elia. 

Why did he not send both children? Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy. Aegon was his true heir, and who he believed was the prince that was promised (curtsy of Dany's vision in the house of the undying).  

The baby that was swapped wasn't the pisswater boy (but that, again, is a story for later).

But the war is lost, and now Vary's and his childhood friend Ilyrio have a baby. Then much later Ilyrio's wife (I believe) has Young Griff. 

They want to make YG the new heir, and they figure after many years people won't mind the age discrepancy (obviously they don't since that is how the plan goes through). I think YG was added later by George so he could introduce the idea of a baby (and obviously the plot would change a bit). 

Why teach fake Aegon who he is then? lets say he was three years old when YG was born, it would be easy for them to gaslight him into believing he was just a slave boy.

 

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So they sent him to the house of black and white to get him to lose his identity, and then later the wall to do much the same. 

Why didn't they just keep him as a slave?

 

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Why didn't they just kill him? I'm not sure, but I have a few ideas: 

1. They had plans for him later (I doubt this one). 

Then why sending him to THOBAW/The Wall?

 

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2. Varys was his kin (being a blackfyre) and thought kin slaying was accursed. 

We don't know Varys is a Blackfyre, why didn't Illyrio kill him?

 

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3. Something to do with the prophecy. 

this is the same as having plans for him later.

 

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Either way they didn't want the boy dead.  

Why?

 

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Rorge and Biter were just in the black cells as well.

They where in the same cell as Jaqen, which implies a shared crime, also Jaqen gave Biter his name yet Rorge calls him Biter, Rorge knows Biter from before the black sells, it follows that Jaqen does as well. Why does Rorge save Jaqen from the fire? Why do they stay together after escaping the cage?

 

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Because the items inside are from kingslanding and were part of baby aegon's collection. 

Not likely, as they where clothes meant for him to use, is he the same size as he was when he was a baby?

 

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The baby cloths and candied ginger belong to baby aegon. That is not who YG is, so he takes to interest to these items. It is 'Jaqen' while in Harrenhall who chews on ginger and has the same preferences as baby Aegon.  

We don't know the preferences of Baby Aegon, not one, we know the preferences of baby YG, and Illyrio wouldn't give him the candy anther kid liked just because, it makes no sense. 

Also, ginger and ginger candy aren't the same.

 

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Because that is what Rhaegar agreed to. After he died (Rhaegar that is) and the war was lost they had a powerful commodity. 

We have no clue Rhaegar knew about this. They have a powerful commodity, which they tried desperately to get rid of?

 

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They probably (and again this is just speculation) weren't sure what to do with him until YG was born. 

So they never meant for him to be king, why did they teach him of his family?

 

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You need to be 13 to join the HOBAW. 

Where do you get that?

 

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However it played out here is what we do know: Aegon VI is sent across the narrow sea 

That we don't know, he might have been killed by the Mountain.

 

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Aegon is then brought to the house of black and white 

There's no evidence to support that.

 

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He gets locked up in the black cells 

Arya saves his life. 

That's Jaqen, there's nothing that points to them being the same person

 

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He returns to the house of black and white (he asks Arya to come with him). 

That's not even Jaqen.

 

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Why he thought they'd support him? 

No, why was he raised at Illyrio's mansion if the plan was to use YG as the king and he was of no importance?

 

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There are plenty of factors. Maybe he was raised to see them as his foster parents, maybe they lied to him about his identity. 

How does he know he is Aegon if they lied to him about his identity?

 

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A lot of things could have happened, we won't know until later. But regardless he either knew who he was all along, or he was told by the waif which brought him to pursue Ilyrio back to Kingslanding. 

How does The Waif know? Why would Varys and Illyrio tell her? and why would she tell him even if she knew? isn't she supposed to promote 'being no one'?

 

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Again there is plenty of evidence, and more. I am only recounting the story from what we have. 

You haven't provided even one piece

 

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There is a fundamental problem with this.  

None of those characters killed Pate. Only the alchemist did. Regardless of who you think he is, we should agree that this metaphor is applied to the person who is about to steal Pate's identity. 

It fills us in with what Jaqen has been doing in the first three books. And since we can deduce his identity, the picture, and the metaphor, becomes clear. 

I will say this again: yes The Alchemist killed him, we know nothing about The Alchemist's backstory, so we can't match them, yet you use this backstory to 'prove' he is Aegon, I used it to 'prove' he is Robb, it fits as much as yours.

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3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

GRRM would have something to say to you "if you take out everything that's gratuitous or irrelevant you are left with the cliff notes version of the books, fuck the people who complain about gratuitous things." 

Most of the lines in the series are irrelevant, the feasts for example, that's the way he writes.

Nothing to do with me. This is a carefully crafted prologue drenched with symbolism.   

From the arrows, to the apples, to the golden dragon. 

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That person being The Alchemist, whom we know nothing about, so 'the metaphor' is just your guess at what happened, there's nothing in the books to indicate any of it happened, so it would be a weird metaphor as it's a metaphor we have no chance of decoding, as the thing it's metaphoring is not in the series.

We know the alchemist is the same person Arya met at Harrenhall. 

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No it doesn't! it involves Varys and Illyrio saving a baby just to get rid of him a few years later, and then it makes up a character so it fits, you see we know nothing about your "real Aegon", if he isn't Yg then we only know he was Rhaegar and Ellia's second son, he had a sister named Rhaenys, he was believed to be killed as a baby by Gregor Clegane, and he would be 18 in the current story, basically you have two things to identify him: his age and his likely valiryan looks (tho they could have changed throughout the years to something more dornish, as newborn babes start looking more like their fathers) but the thing is, you are matching it to a character that a) looks nothing like he's supposed to, b) is much older and c) can shapeshift, so there's nothing that matches. 

First he looks exactly how he is suppose to: he has a chiseled face, white hair, and is described as beautiful (mark that word).  

Dany has a vision in the second book where Rhaegar claims his son (Aegon VI) is the prince who was promised. 

Then we are introduced to the idea of a baby swap from Tyrion's chapter in ADWD and Jon's chapter in ADWD. 

GRRM built this off of the whole tale about the baby having no face (unrecognizable). But that was in the first book before he had thought up YG. 

Young Griff was added later. 

Now lets look at the Valonqar prophecy (I know you've read my post so I'll keep this short). 

In AFFC Cersei has a chapter where she does two things: she relieves her meeting with Maggy, and she testifies how Aurane Waters looks like Rhaegar but that he is not as beautiful

To use that adjective (in bold) has a gender bias. Now Cersei, after Robert's death, wears a black dress studded with rubies. Her marriage with Robert did not fall apart when the abuse started, it fell apart before it began. She blamed him for killing Rhaegar on the trident. 

Now the Valonqar, the younger brother comes into view. Maggy uses blood to tell her tale, and Aegon VI has Valyrian blood justifying the translation of the word.  

So what do we know about this person, he is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar. 

YG is not signified as particularly attract. But there is a character in Harrenhall that fits the description: The regal, young, beautiful, stranger who has everyone gushing. He is not given an age but he should fit as even Arya noticed how attractive he was. 

And the symbolism is not accidental. Like Lyanna, Arya is the wild stark girl with brown hair, grey eyes, and has the nickname horseface which is reflective of Lyanna being known as a horse girl. 

They are under the heart tree when Arya accidentally calls him a "king". His accent breaks and he looks worried for the first time (even more so than when the fire was about to kill him). 

He "pledges" to help Arya under the heart tree. He is kneeling before her. This is a clear symbolism to what happened in Harrenhall between Rhaegar and Lyanna

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Exactly, The Alchemist, not Aegon, if you claim The Alchemist to be Aegon, then I can claim him to be Robb, and it fits the parallel, as I shown.

Ahh, but the Alchemist, we know, is Jaqen. 

He has obvious parallels to Aegon. He has no parallel to Robb. Which makes this comparison ridiculous. 

Knowing Jaqen's background, we can see it continues to fit Aegon VI timeline. 

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So, they like similar food? that's it? does that mean that Jeyne Poole and Sweet Robin are the same person because they both love lemon cakes? 

Side note. Sweet Robin does not like lemon cakes, he pretends to because Sansa likes them.

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Also, why would Illyrio give Aegon 2 the candies Aegon 1 enjoys? If he does care fo rhim, why wouldn't he give him things he likes? 

Ilyrio gave him the chest as a form of legitimacy. He probably hoped the boy would become attached to them. But nowhere does the clothes or ginger interest him. These things could also be recognized in Kingslanding by someone. 

However, the real Aegon was chewing ginger in Harrenhall. He does not need to be told what items he should be connected to, because he himself was that baby in Dany's vision. The same vision that followed her seeing a door of black and white. 

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There's no indication that Aegon want's a dragon egg 

There is. Besides the word play between Pate wanting a golden "dragon" many people believe he came to the citadel for the book on dragons which has been locked away. 

Walgrave's keys give him access to that. We know Euron hired a faceless man to kill Balon. The reward was the dragon egg he "threw away". 

More on that later since you bring it up again. 

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yes, that's Jaqen tho, without talking about him being Jaqen, what reason do we have to suspect he wen't to the HOBAW?

And who controls the black cells? Rugen. 

Of course the premise of this discussion is they are one in the same person. 

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Evidence for this?

We know they wanted to make YG Aegon because that is what they do.

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Then why would they wan't to send him to The Wall? sending him to the HOBAW didn't work, why would The Wall work? 

I expect they had to think on their feet. The two of them have made mistakes before, and were surprised that he resurfaced. 

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Yes, not Robb, or Ned, Or Dany, OR AEGON. 

Your argument is completely circular: "he's Aegon because his backstory fits, this is his backstory because he's Aegon" 

No, I provide evidence for why the man in Harrenhall is Aegon. That man is the same one who goes onto kill Pate, and his backstory is (again) a match for Aegon VI. Both his age and the timeline of events.

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No, because we don't know Jaqen's age, we don't know if he's been rejected by two masters, we don't know when he started at the HOBAW

how does it follow his path in the first three books? 

We know he is young, young enough to be the right age. We know he was locked up in the black cells (betrayal) and he was rejected by the kindly man (he returned to the house of black and white, and yet next we see him he has broken several rules of the house of black and white).

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We'll that's a theory, not a fact, and even if Balon was killed by a faceless men, it was likely not Jaqen, as he keeps the same face he had when he left Harrenhall, and faceless men change it when they kill someone. 

It continues along the pattern of him breaking rules. He kills Pate while looking at his face, and (I believe) the faceless men would traditional reject Euron's contract because he put no value in the dragon egg.

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We don't know that at all, we have no clue Rhaegar was involved in the swap.

The books don't tell us directly (that is the mystery). But there is much in the subtext. 

First we are told Rhaegar is obsessed with the prophecy. Then we are shown (in Dany's vision) that he believes Aegon VI to be the prince who was promised. Keeping him safe is of the utmost importance. 

So what of Elia? Well again we are given two motifs about the baby swap: 

1. Jon with Dalla and Gilly's baby 

2. Young Griff introducing the idea in the first place

"Another woman would have shrieked at him, cursed him, damned him down to seven hells. Another woman might have flown at him in rage, slapped him, kicked him, raked at his eyes with her nails. Another woman might have thrown her defiance in his teeth"- Jon Snow, ADWD

Notice neither Val or Gilly are that woman. 

We are led to believe Elia is meek. But she is dornish much like her brother Doran. She appears meek just like Doran. But we learn the truth about her brother (Doran) in AFFC with the fire and blood speech. 

Another woman is Elia. That is how she and Rhaegar parted. And it is all meant to reinforce that fact that the baby swap happened. Under Rhaegar's will. 

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Why teach fake Aegon who he is then? lets say he was three years old when YG was born, it would be easy for them to gaslight him into believing he was just a slave boy.

Perhaps they did, in fact I think that is possible. But if so they did not know the Waif was in the house of black and white. They could not have expected her to know, or that she would tell him of his true identity.

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Why didn't they just keep him as a slave? 

The walls are described in Tyrion's chapter. Inside people from Pentos. But anyone outside the city could find out if he ever left. The boy looked like his father, and even that didn't make him suspect, he could one day find out about his birth. 

Becoming a FM would force him to lose his identity, and never make a claim against young griff. 

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Then why sending him to THOBAW/The Wall? 

That was just a theory. Over all I would say they didn't want to make him king. Whatever other plans they had for him didn't involve taking the throne. 

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We don't know Varys is a Blackfyre, why didn't Illyrio kill him? 

Ilyrio is married into Vary's family. His wife is Vary's sister. 

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this is the same as having plans for him later. 

Sure. 

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Why? 

I don't have the answer, only theories to that question. But I think it falls closer to the line of kinslaying, and worrying out being accursed. 

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They where in the same cell as Jaqen, which implies a shared crime, also Jaqen gave Biter his name yet Rorge calls him Biter, Rorge knows Biter from before the black sells, it follows that Jaqen does as well. Why does Rorge save Jaqen from the fire? Why do they stay together after escaping the cage?

We don't know much about their relationship, but we do know they go their separate ways after Harrenhall. 

Also they weren't close friends, it was more described as the other two being scared of Jaqen. In fact Yoren was told to keep him locked up with the other two least he escapes. 

He is a dangerous person, and the other two fear and respect him. He is also regal and charming, and he makes women "swoon".  

edit: he says "a man does not choose his companions" or something like that. Again they were not a gang of three, they met in the black cells.

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Not likely, as they where clothes meant for him to use, is he the same size as he was when he was a baby? 

It's more about a subconscious attachment, like the smell and feel give you memories or some distant sense of connectivity. YG has none for the items in the box. 

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We don't know the preferences of Baby Aegon, not one, we know the preferences of baby YG, and Illyrio wouldn't give him the candy anther kid liked just because, it makes no sense. 

Also, ginger and ginger candy aren't the same. 

YG did not touch the candied ginger. He did not once give notice to the things in the box. And they were not his things, they were those of baby Aegon. It was a matter of legitimacy, and also something else. 

Remember when Varys kills Kevan? He does not claim YG to be a fake. Rather they try to build a new identity around this child, same as how they wanted to steal the real Aegon's identity. 

Things are true if you believe them to be true. 

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We have no clue Rhaegar knew about this. They have a powerful commodity, which they tried desperately to get rid of?

They didn't. They kept the box, and they wanted their own child to take the throne. Rhaegar gave them that chance (unwittingly).  

Note why Dany and Viserys were not allowed in the manse until much later. Ilyrio had kept the boy Aegon until he was thirteen, and had sent of YG with Connington. 

Before then Dany and Viserys were homeless (or jumping from home to home).

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So they never meant for him to be king, why did they teach him of his family?

They probably didn't. That is where the Waif comes in. 

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Where do you get that? 

It is known

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That we don't know, he might have been killed by the Mountain. 

That Gregor Clegane did anything we do not know. 

Tyrion and Tywin have this discussion, as do him and Varys. 

No one asked the mountain, and the only time he confessed was in the duel between Oberyn, at which point he didn't care anymore. 

He may have killed the other child and Elia, but we can't be sure. The baby swap however is different, for the same reason the decoy child conveniently had his head bashed in.  

The evidence for the baby swap is there (as I have shown). 

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There's no evidence to support that. 

If he is Jaqen then he must have. And it fits the timeline for Aegon VI.

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That's Jaqen, there's nothing that points to them being the same person 

But there is. 

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That's not even Jaqen. 

Yes it is, he asks Arya to return with him across the narrow sea. She rejects him and says she must find her family. 

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No, why was he raised at Illyrio's mansion if the plan was to use YG as the king and he was of no importance? 

He is important, he is Rhaegar's true born child. And they would always be scared of letting him go. If someone sought to crown him one day, or learn who he was.

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How does he know he is Aegon if they lied to him about his identity? 

The Waif told him. 

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How does The Waif know? Why would Varys and Illyrio tell her? and why would she tell him even if she knew? isn't she supposed to promote 'being no one'? 

Ah, but they did not know about the Waif, they could not predict her presence in the HOBAW. 

She is somewhere around 36 years old but looks young thanks to poisonings. She has an antagonistic relationship with Arya (only a little, not like in the show). 

And she tells Arya her backstory in a game of truth and lie.  

The Waif knew who Aegon is, because she had her baby switched with Elia's baby. After she tried to commit suicide, she ended up in the house of black and white for assisted suicide.  

"But she did not die" (Arya, AFFC).

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You haven't provided even one piece 

I have, and I can provide more. But this post covers a lot already.

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I will say this again: yes The Alchemist killed him, we know nothing about The Alchemist's backstory, so we can't match them, yet you use this backstory to 'prove' he is Aegon, I used it to 'prove' he is Robb, it fits as much as yours.

We know the alchemist is Jaqen. 

We know somethings about Jaqen's story, and we know somethings about Aegon's story. 

The one presented to us here combines the two. 

Robb is not Jaqen, he has nothing to do with this story.

Edited by butterweedstrover

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nothing to do with me. This is a carefully crafted prologue drenched with symbolism.   

From the arrows, to the apples, to the golden dragon. 

Says you, you could be misreading the symbolism, you could be projecting things in the text that aren't. 

For example, the golden dragon, you claim as evidence for Jaqen and Aegon being one, because you claim Aegon is looking for a dragon egg, yet you only prof he's doing that is the coin parallel. Circular argument 

 

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We know the alchemist is the same person Arya met at Harrenhall. 

First he looks exactly how he is suppose to: he has a chiseled face, white hair, and is described as beautiful (mark that word).  

Dany has a vision in the second book where Rhaegar claims his son (Aegon VI) is the prince who was promised. 

Then we are introduced to the idea of a baby swap from Tyrion's chapter in ADWD and Jon's chapter in ADWD. 

GRRM built this off of the whole tale about the baby having no face (unrecognizable). But that was in the first book before he had thought up YG. 

Young Griff was added later. 

Now lets look at the Valonqar prophecy (I know you've read my post so I'll keep this short). 

In AFFC Cersei has a chapter where she does two things: she relieves her meeting with Maggy, and she testifies how Aurane Waters looks like Rhaegar but that he is not as beautiful

To use that adjective (in bold) has a gender bias. Now Cersei, after Robert's death, wears a black dress studded with rubies. Her marriage with Robert did not fall apart when the abuse started, it fell apart before it began. She blamed him for killing Rhaegar on the trident. 

Now the Valonqar, the younger brother comes into view. Maggy uses blood to tell her tale, and Aegon VI has Valyrian blood justifying the translation of the word.  

So what do we know about this person, he is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar. 

YG is not signified as particularly attract. But there is a character in Harrenhall that fits the description: The regal, young, beautiful, stranger who has everyone gushing. He is not given an age but he should fit as even Arya noticed how attractive he was. 

 Your only evidence is that he's beautiful? that's laughable.

Here's a list of characters described as beautiful:

Cersei; Ashara; Lyanna; Sansa; Myrcella; Dany's Silver; Joffrey; Jaimie; Caitlin; Loras; Loras's mare; Margeary; young Lysa; Berra; Melissandre; Lynesse; Alayaya; Theon's first; Dany; Dancy; The Maid; Taena; Val; Shae; Jeyne Westerling; Ygritte; Roslin; 

and that's just AGOT, ACOK and ASOS, plus Jaqen can change his face! and Jaen's face is almost definitely not his own, so none of what you claim here is relevant.

 

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They are under the heart tree when Arya accidentally calls him a "king". His accent breaks and he looks worried for the first time (even more so than when the fire was about to kill him). 

Arya doesn't cal him a king tho, she asks if he could kill the king, he says yes and isn't concerned at all, then she calls for his death and there is when he's scared. You are 100% twisting events to fit your whims.

 

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He "pledges" to help Arya under the heart tree. He is kneeling before her. This is a clear symbolism to what happened in Harrenhall between Rhaegar and Lyanna

We don't know that that happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna

 

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He has obvious parallels to Aegon. He has no parallel to Robb. Which makes this comparison ridiculous. 

He doesn't tho, one eats ginger, one eats ginger candy, they're both described as beautiful tho one can change faces. That's it.

 

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Knowing Jaqen's background, we can see it continues to fit Aegon VI timeline. 

Well, since you are not talking about YG, we don't know anything about this timeline, so absolutely anything could fit.

 

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Side note. Sweet Robin does not like lemon cakes, he pretends to because Sansa likes them.

He does like them, because Sansa likes them, but he still does.

 

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Ilyrio gave him the chest as a form of legitimacy. He probably hoped the boy would become attached to them. But nowhere does the clothes or ginger interest him. These things could also be recognized in Kingslanding by someone. 

That's stupid. No one would know what Aegon likes other than Illyrio, as when he was 'killed' he was to young to eat candy, and no one carries a chest of their old baby clothes. Also, old clothes would not be proof as they are incredibly easy to falsify or steal.

 

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There is. Besides the word play between Pate wanting a golden "dragon" many people believe he came to the citadel for the book on dragons which has been locked away. 

again, circular "Jaqen is Aegon because Pate's search for a dragon parallels Aegon's search for a dragon egg, also Aegon is searching a dragon egg because it parallels Pate's search for a golden dragon". Nonsense.

 

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And who controls the black cells? Rugen. 

So? does that mean anyone in the black cells is secretly Aegon?

 

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We know they wanted to make YG Aegon because that is what they do.

Great, do you have any evidence that this happened?

 

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We know he is young, young enough to be the right age. We know he was locked up in the black cells (betrayal) and he was rejected by the kindly man (he returned to the house of black and white, and yet next we see him he has broken several rules of the house of black and white).

We don't. Arya never compares his age to that of Jon. Also, there's no indication he was rejected by the kindly man and we have no reason to think he wen't back to the HOBAW

 

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The walls are described in Tyrion's chapter. Inside people from Pentos. But anyone outside the city could find out if he ever left. The boy looked like his father, and even that didn't make him suspect, he could one day find out about his birth. 

There are other Valiryan people, like a lot of sex slaves, and almost no one in Essos knows Rhaegar's face, no one would see a slave or a beggar and think it's Rhaegar's son.

 

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Becoming a FM would force him to lose his identity, and never make a claim against young griff. 

Or they could just, not tell him who he was and either kill him or keep him as a slave.

 

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That was just a theory. Over all I would say they didn't want to make him king. Whatever other plans they had for him didn't involve taking the throne. 

If they gave him away they had no plans for him

 

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Ilyrio is married into Vary's family. His wife is Vary's sister. 

We don't know that

 

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Remember when Varys kills Kevan? He does not claim YG to be a fake. Rather they try to build a new identity around this child, same as how they wanted to steal the real Aegon's identity. 

What??

 

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Things are true if you believe them to be true. 

Is this your thesis?

 

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They didn't. They kept the box, and they wanted their own child to take the throne. Rhaegar gave them that chance (unwittingly).  

Why would Rhaegar use them, instead of loyal friends like Jon Con, The Knight of Kisses, Whent, Hightower or Dayne?

 

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Note why Dany and Viserys were not allowed in the manse until much later. Ilyrio had kept the boy Aegon until he was thirteen, and had sent of YG with Connington. 

What for?

 

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It is known

Citation needed. Or is this another case of "things are true if you believe them to be true"?

 

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That Gregor Clegane did anything we do not know. 

He raped and murdered Ellia and he smashed a baby's head, but it doesn't matter, the fact that baby Aegon crossed the narrow sea is not a certainty

 

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If he is Jaqen then he must have. And it fits the timeline for Aegon VI.

Again, circular argument "he was brought tho the HOBAW because he's Jaqen, he's Jaqen because he went to the HOBAW" 

I'm asking for evidence that Aegon went to the HOBAW, not that Jaqen did.

It fits the timeline because there's only one thing we know about that timeline  is that he was born in 281/282, anything that happens after that would fit. Things that would fit:

he was swapped with Jon Snow; He was swapped with Robb Stark, He was swapped with Theon Greyjoy, he was trained as an Unsullied; he's north of The Wall; he's part of Euron's crew; he's Daario, etc

 

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But there is. 

Nope. You draw parallels and then invent backstory so they fit, but based on what the series has written, based on the text, there's absolutely no reason to think Aegon is Jaqen, no one has motive to save him and then essentially kill him, and it makes no sense.

 

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He is important, he is Rhaegar's true born child. And they would always be scared of letting him go. If someone sought to crown him one day, or learn who he was.

They where scared of eltting him go, so they gave him away?

 

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The Waif told him. 

Ah, but they did not know about the Waif, they could not predict her presence in the HOBAW. 

She is somewhere around 36 years old but looks young thanks to poisonings. She has an antagonistic relationship with Arya (only a little, not like in the show). 

And she tells Arya her backstory in a game of truth and lie.  

The Waif knew who Aegon is, because she had her baby switched with Elia's baby. After she tried to commit suicide, she ended up in the house of black and white for assisted suicide.  

"But she did not die" (Arya, AFFC)

The Waif tells her backstory to Arya, with exagerations and lies, but no lies of omission, and she never mentions having a baby or swapping it. There's no reason to think she had a baby. There's no reason to think said baby was smashheadbaby, but most of all, there's no reason she would tell Aegon about his lineage, because she would be trying to turn him into no one, and giving him a family history is the oposite of that.

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Says you, you could be misreading the symbolism, you could be projecting things in the text that aren't. 

For example, the golden dragon, you claim as evidence for Jaqen and Aegon being one, because you claim Aegon is looking for a dragon egg, yet you only prof he's doing that is the coin parallel. Circular argument 

 

There is more symbolism, and the arrows are important. 

Arya is compared to a dead apple multiple times throughout the book. She bites one, others fall on her head (I think in ASOS) and the kindly man compares her to one. 

I don't have the book with me right now, but Pate is killed by the alchemist for the key. 

Read the line about him being a thief. It is a continuation of Elia and Rhaegar's conversation. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 Your only evidence is that he's beautiful? that's laughable.

Here's a list of characters described as beautiful:

Cersei; Ashara; Lyanna; Sansa; Myrcella; Dany's Silver; Joffrey; Jaimie; Caitlin; Loras; Loras's mare; Margeary; young Lysa; Berra; Melissandre; Lynesse; Alayaya; Theon's first; Dany; Dancy; The Maid; Taena; Val; Shae; Jeyne Westerling; Ygritte; Roslin; 

and that's just AGOT, ACOK and ASOS, plus Jaqen can change his face! and Jaen's face is almost definitely not his own, so none of what you claim here is relevant. 

No, that's not all the evidence. How he looks, his age range, his role in Harrenhall, and later the ghost of high heart. 

I was just introducing another piece of evidence. Also that was his true face, he changes into the alchemist even as he is returning to the house of black and white because he doesn't want Varys' spies to catch him (notice him).

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Arya doesn't cal him a king tho, she asks if he could kill the king, he says yes and isn't concerned at all, then she calls for his death and there is when he's scared. You are 100% twisting events to fit your whims.

In the grand scheme of things I am not. 

That line could have played out any number of ways but it did not. I wouldn't expect GRRM to show his hand that early and that easily. 

The parallels to the tourney and Arya's visit to Harrenhall are clear. Now we have a specific scene under the weirwood tree. Jaqen is kneels in front of Arya and "pledges" (key word) to help her. 

She then asks if she can kill a king. He says who, Joffrey? And then she whispers his name. 

Note there is more to the dialogue than just that. A lot of her lines about the woman, man, and septon are important, but that is differening evidence. 

Going to the ghost of high heart, she tells Arya that she has already suffered grief thanks to Summerhall and she needs "none of yours". 

Arya is tied to Aegon, and the second Summerhall (cracking a dragon egg).

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know that that happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna

We can speculate, and we know more than that. 

They meet up near Harrenhall a second time. 

The discussion between Rhaegar and Elia is showed twice in two separate books. She knows he needs a third child for the prophecy, but she is too weak to bare another. So they discuss him marrying a second wife. 

The lines are first shown in the house of the undying, then Between Pate and the alchemist "I am no thief". 

Rhaegar knows Lyanna is betrothed, and he ends the conversation with "I guess I am a thief". 

Marrying under the old gods is better because Rhaegar was married to Elia under the sevens. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

He doesn't tho, one eats ginger, one eats ginger candy, they're both described as beautiful tho one can change faces. That's it.

Again, that is part of it, though the word choice is peculiar in those two instances. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, since you are not talking about YG, we don't know anything about this timeline, so absolutely anything could fit. 

We know for him to be alive the baby swap must have happened, and them means taking him across the narrow sea. And we know he must have occupied space in the mansion for Viserys and Daenerys to not be let in until much later. Among other things.

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

He does like them, because Sansa likes them, but he still does. 

I read it as he pretends they are his favorite because that is what Sansa likes.

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

That's stupid. No one would know what Aegon likes other than Illyrio, as when he was 'killed' he was to young to eat candy, and no one carries a chest of their old baby clothes. Also, old clothes would not be proof as they are incredibly easy to falsify or steal. 

The baby chews on ginger. Just like in Harrenhall. The swaddling cloths are taken from the nursery, and there are people yet alive who could identify them. Again this isn't like today where cloths are mass produced. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

again, circular "Jaqen is Aegon because Pate's search for a dragon parallels Aegon's search for a dragon egg, also Aegon is searching a dragon egg because it parallels Pate's search for a golden dragon". Nonsense.

The golden dragon is just one piece I use to show the parallels in that chapter. The background follows his role in the first three books. Him looking to crack a dragon egg can be figured out without Pate. It just shows the two characters have symbolic parallels. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

So? does that mean anyone in the black cells is secretly Aegon? 

No. It means he was put there for a reason since a highly trained assassin would not mess up and be arrested by the gold cloaks.

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Great, do you have any evidence that this happened?

YG is too young to be the real Aegon. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't. Arya never compares his age to that of Jon. Also, there's no indication he was rejected by the kindly man and we have no reason to think he wen't back to the HOBAW 

Aegon would be a year older I think. Big difference at that age. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

There are other Valiryan people, like a lot of sex slaves, and almost no one in Essos knows Rhaegar's face, no one would see a slave or a beggar and think it's Rhaegar's son. 

I know, I acknowledge this in the other post. But they would not get rid of him so easily with the threat of someone finding out. 

34 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

The Waif tells her backstory to Arya, with exagerations and lies, but no lies of omission, and she never mentions having a baby or swapping it. There's no reason to think she had a baby. There's no reason to think said baby was smashheadbaby, but most of all, there's no reason she would tell Aegon about his lineage, because she would be trying to turn him into no one, and giving him a family history is the oposite of that.

 

She changes perspectives in her story. 

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On 10/21/2020 at 6:04 PM, CamiloRP said:

Somehow they negotiated with Craster

He offers sacrifices to his gods, and you don't negotiate with your gods. And their arrangement wasn't stable.

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

But the Targaryens were central since book 1. Not just Dany, but Rhaegar, Aegon VI, Jon, and a the prince that was promised.

Aegon VI wasn't in book 1, nor was there any mention of a "prince that was promised" then.

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Don't believe me?

Correct, for once.

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Every character is deeply affected by Rhaegar

Being affected by a character who died in the backstory does not make that person the main character. It makes them... party of the backstory.

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Dany is interesting because she is direct to text rather than being a mysterious character who has played a role in everyone's life.

Yeah, Dany is actually a character in the present-day of the books. Like the Starks, and unlike Rhaegar.

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Quaithe (Targaryen bastard)

There's no evidence for that.

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has been contacting Dany since the first book

She only entered the series in the second book.

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The Ghost of High Heart sees this and is terrified by Arya because she remembers the prophecy and Summerhall

She doesn't say anything about Arya being tied to Summerhall or "three heads of the dragon". Instead she associates her with death & grief (fitting, since she's about to join a death cult), and says she had enough of that at Summerhall.

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Tyrion may get more chapters, but he is not a destined being, he is just a character George likes to write about and offers and interesting perspective on the world.

Tyrion has been central going all the way back to the pitch letter.

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For point of reference how many times is it said that Lysa killed Jon Arryn?

The one scene that was necessary to inform us. Have you heard the expression "It's always in the last place you look" and the explanation for it that once you find something, you stop looking for it? That mystery is wrapped up, and there's no need to reiterate it.

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The budget grew over the years

There were still practical limits. D&D basically exhausted themselves and exceeded their allotted time on some of the more spectacle-heavy episodes (which is why the number of episodes per season went down).

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Second thing, if they wanted to they would just scale down the conflict in the books, instead they replaced it with an entirely new one.

They had a limited number of seasons they were willing to make. GRRM thought it could go for multiple additional season. The pitch letter indicated that the final novel would be dedicated to the conflict with the Others, instead they condensed it into a battle that took place in a single episode.

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Why? Because there is no epic final battle. This isn't LOTR with an army of Orcs playing as the mindless bad guy that the realm has to unite against.

It should be noted that the Orcs aren't actually defeated in a "final battle" in LotR. The battle is just a distraction for Frodo to destroy the One Ring. And the Others aren't mindless, but GRRM has indicated they are an enemy of everything alive.

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Aegon VI was there since the first book in the black cells

We don't meet anybody in the black cells in the first book, and Aegon VI has been with Jon Connington during the time the books take place. If you think he's Jaquen, how can he be in Oldtown as the Alchemist while Aegon is in Essos?

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Euron has been Quiathe and Bloodraven's puppet since the first book.

Euron wasn't in the first book either.

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Also the reason GRRM introduced a new cast in books four and five is because they are going to be important, and even replace much of the original cast when winter comes.

GRRM has actually explained this: originally there was going to be a five-year gap after Storm of Swords. Then he decided that rather than just skipping over everything, he would have an extended prologue explaining what had happened. The new ("minor") POV characters spun out of that prologue. The central characters are still the ones from the pitch letter.

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the other is tied to the prophecy (as I explain above)

You stated, you didn't really explain.

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The magic in the north is important, just like the magic in the east (red god).

I've seen no reference to the latter in the pitch letter. It seems he came up with that later.

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Its all 100% true.

It's all 100% in your head.

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But the claims I make are accurate.

You can't evaluate the accuracy of your own claims about the future.

22 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I don't see this as a problem.  It means more books to enjoy.

"A book GRRM would need to write to complete the story" != "a book GRRM will actually finish writing".

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, I think he said somewhere in Winter people are going to die.

People die every winter. He's talking about the potential end of the world, a la the Long Night.

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Could be true (again I only speculate), but "greatest danger" doesn't mean most important.

What could be more important than the greatest danger!?

21 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The baby clothes in Ducks chest suggest the baby swap happened.

Whether it happend or not, at some point he would have been a child and worn child's clothes.

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YG is too young and he was added very late in the story

You say that as if Aegon can't be added very late in the story. GRRM isn't bound by your rules of how important he must be.

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The Pate backstory (it would not be written if the story wasn't true, I mean it's too specific).

What does it have to do with anything?

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The dragon egg, YG doesn't have one. Dragon eggs are associated with the Targaryen heir

The Targaryens didn't have any dragon eggs at the time Aegon was born. And Jaquen doesn't have one.

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Side note: red hair is for Elia, white hair is for Rhaegar.

He's a faceless man, that's just the hair of some dead person whose identity has been taken.

17 hours ago, HerblYY said:

And to those who think that no Targ was obsessed with the Others yet (I've just read it at this topic, but don't remeber who said it), then I would like to tell those that Aegon I conquered Westeros because of his vision about them, Aerys I (It is only my guessing, but still likely) did not make a heir because Brynden told him about the others, so he realised that it's not up to him to continue the line, and also got very obsessed with theories and visions along with Bloodraven. And then there's Aegon V, who let his children marry because of the prophecy

We know they were influenced by "prophecy" or "dragon dreams", but were those about the Others specifically? Most of them paid little attention to the Wall. Aegon I tried and failed to conquer Dorne as part of his conquest of Westeros, did that have anything to do with the Others?

10 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Because Pate is dead. His backstory is irrelevant.

Other dead prologue/epilogue characters have gotten backstories.

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Now he is in the citadel looking for a dragon egg

Who says the citadel even has one?

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We can find out (through the evidence GRRM puts in the books) that the man called 'Jaqen' is Aegon VI

There is no such evidence.

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Varys and Ilyrio had Young Griff by know and they wanted to make him 'Aegon' so they needed to the real one to not be a problem.

The simplest way to do that is by killing him, not sending him to the Faceless Men.

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Vinegar is the taste of bitter rejection

Vinegar is sour because it's acidic. Bases are the opposites of acids, and they taste bitter.

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Now he is in the citadel looking for the book that will help him crack the egg.

A book is something you might find in the citadel, NOT a dragon egg. And Pate isn't looking for a book to open up a "gold dragon" coin.

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Varys was his kin (being a blackfyre) and thought kin slaying was accursed.

GRRM has said the taboo doesn't really apply to more distant relations. And I don't think Varys cares about such taboos.

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Regardless of who you think he is, we should agree that this metaphor is applied to the person who is about to steal Pate's identity.

I don't agree it's a metaphor at all.

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

First he looks exactly how he is suppose to: he has a chiseled face, white hair, and is described as beautiful (mark that word). 

As a Faceless Man, the one thing we can guess is that this is not his original face. It's some dead person's face being used by someone else. He is "supposed to" look that way for a job.

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So what do we know about this person, he is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar.

Maggie used the phrase "younger and more beautiful" after saying that Cersei would be "queen". She was not using a Valyrian word like valonquar then.

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YG is not signified as particularly attract

Tyrion thinks "This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them".

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He has obvious parallels to Aegon

No, he doesn't.

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Ilyrio gave him the chest as a form of legitimacy

How is the chest a "form of legitimacy"?

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I expect they had to think on their feet

The solution that comes first to mind is killing him, not sending him to join a cult of assassins.

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and he was rejected by the kindly man (he returned to the house of black and white, and yet next we see him he has broken several rules of the house of black and white)

We don't actually know he ever returned there rather than going directly from Harrenhal to Oldtown. He asks Arya to join his cult, but since he's supposed to be "no one" there's not really a requirement that he personally be there. And what rules has he broken?

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He kills Pate while looking at his face

I don't recall there being a rule against that.

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and (I believe) the faceless men would traditional reject Euron's contract because he put no value in the dragon egg

Dragon eggs are rare and Euron isn't Tom Bombadil and we don't actually know Euron used an egg to pay the Faceless Men.

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They could not have expected her to know

How would she know?

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The boy looked like his father, and even that didn't make him suspect

Lots of Lysenis look Valyrian.

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he could one day find out about his birth

Even if hears about the existence of Aegon VI, how would he know that's him?

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Becoming a FM would force him to lose his identity

Arya hasn't really lost hers.

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That was just a theory

It's your theory and it makes no sense.

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Ilyrio is married into Vary's family. His wife is Vary's sister.

We don't know any of that. We've just heard he was a slave as a child, sold to a troupe of mummers. We haven't heard about him having siblings at all.

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I don't have the answer, only theories to that question. But I think it falls closer to the line of kinslaying, and worrying out being accursed.

The question is only raised because of your wacky theory, and who is going to be making any accusation?

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Ilyrio had kept the boy Aegon until he was thirteen, and had sent of YG with Connington

Were both YG & Jaquen ever living in the manse at the same time?

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It is known

By nobody relying on the text rather than bong rips.

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He may have killed the other child and Elia, but we can't be sure

Why would we have any doubt? What possible reason would he have to tell that lie at that point?

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The Waif knew who Aegon is, because she had her baby switched with Elia's baby. After she tried to commit suicide, she ended up in the house of black and white for assisted suicide.

This is all in your head, not in the text.

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Robb is not Jaqen

No more or less than Aegon is.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Also that was his true face

What is the basis for claiming that? He's a Faceless Man.

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It means he was put there for a reason since a highly trained assassin would not mess up and be arrested by the gold cloaks.

I don't think you can be completely confident of that.

Edited by FictionIsntReal
Removed text that got accidenally pasted to the top

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11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

By nobody relying on the text rather than bong rips.

:lol:

 But seriously now, bong rips and special brownies and the like don’t cause that in my experience. That’s more like seeing things that aren’t there, say, a bad trip after taking too many magic ‘shrooms. 

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24 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

He offers sacrifices to his gods, and you don't negotiate with your gods. And their arrangement wasn't stable.

Aegon VI wasn't in book 1, nor was there any mention of a "prince that was promised" then.

Correct, for once.

Being affected by a character who died in the backstory does not make that person the main character. It makes them... party of the backstory.

Yeah, Dany is actually a character in the present-day of the books. Like the Starks, and unlike Rhaegar.

There's no evidence for that.

She only entered the series in the second book.

She doesn't say anything about Arya being tied to Summerhall or "three heads of the dragon". Instead she associates her with death & grief (fitting, since she's about to join a death cult), and says she had enough of that at Summerhall.

Tyrion has been central going all the way back to the pitch letter.

The one scene that was necessary to inform us. Have you heard the expression "It's always in the last place you look" and the explanation for it that once you find something, you stop looking for it? That mystery is wrapped up, and there's no need to reiterate it.

There were still practical limits. D&D basically exhausted themselves and exceeded their allotted time on some of the more spectacle-heavy episodes (which is why the number of episodes per season went down).

They had a limited number of seasons they were willing to make. GRRM thought it could go for multiple additional season. The pitch letter indicated that the final novel would be dedicated to the conflict with the Others, instead they condensed it into a battle that took place in a single episode.

It should be noted that the Orcs aren't actually defeated in a "final battle" in LotR. The battle is just a distraction for Frodo to destroy the One Ring. And the Others aren't mindless, but GRRM has indicated they are an enemy of everything alive.

We don't meet anybody in the black cells in the first book, and Aegon VI has been with Jon Connington during the time the books take place. If you think he's Jaquen, how can he be in Oldtown as the Alchemist while Aegon is in Essos?

Euron wasn't in the first book either.

GRRM has actually explained this: originally there was going to be a five-year gap after Storm of Swords. Then he decided that rather than just skipping over everything, he would have an extended prologue explaining what had happened. The new ("minor") POV characters spun out of that prologue. The central characters are still the ones from the pitch letter.

You stated, you didn't really explain.

I've seen no reference to the latter in the pitch letter. It seems he came up with that later.

It's all 100% in your head.

You can't evaluate the accuracy of your own claims about the future.

"A book GRRM would need to write to complete the story" != "a book GRRM will actually finish writing".

People die every winter. He's talking about the potential end of the world, a la the Long Night.

What could be more important than the greatest danger!?

Whether it happend or not, at some point he would have been a child and worn child's clothes.

You say that as if Aegon can't be added very late in the story. GRRM isn't bound by your rules of how important he must be.

What does it have to do with anything?

The Targaryens didn't have any dragon eggs at the time Aegon was born. And Jaquen doesn't have one.

He's a faceless man, that's just the hair of some dead person whose identity has been taken.

We know they were influenced by "prophecy" or "dragon dreams", but were those about the Others specifically? Most of them paid little attention to the Wall. Aegon I tried and failed to conquer Dorne as part of his conquest of Westeros, did that have anything to do with the Others?

Other dead prologue/epilogue characters have gotten backstories.

Who says the citadel even has one?

There is no such evidence.

The simplest way to do that is by killing him, not sending him to the Faceless Men.

Vinegar is sour because it's acidic. Bases are the opposites of acids, and they taste bitter.

A book is something you might find in the citadel, NOT a dragon egg. And Pate isn't looking for a book to open up a "gold dragon" coin.

GRRM has said the taboo doesn't really apply to more distant relations. And I don't think Varys cares about such taboos.

I don't agree it's a metaphor at all.

As a Faceless Man, the one thing we can guess is that this is not his original face. It's some dead person's face being used by someone else. He is "supposed to" look that way for a job.

Maggie used the phrase "younger and more beautiful" after saying that Cersei would be "queen". She was not using a Valyrian word like valonquar then.

Tyrion thinks "This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them".

No, he doesn't.

How is the chest a "form of legitimacy"?

The solution that comes first to mind is killing him, not sending him to join a cult of assassins.

We don't actually know he ever returned there rather than going directly from Harrenhal to Oldtown. He asks Arya to join his cult, but since he's supposed to be "no one" there's not really a requirement that he personally be there. And what rules has he broken?

I don't recall there being a rule against that.

Dragon eggs are rare and Euron isn't Tom Bombadil and we don't actually know Euron used an egg to pay the Faceless Men.

How would she know?

Lots of Lysenis look Valyrian.

Even if hears about the existence of Aegon VI, how would he know that's him?

Arya hasn't really lost hers.

It's your theory and it makes no sense.

We don't know any of that. We've just heard he was a slave as a child, sold to a troupe of mummers. We haven't heard about him having siblings at all.

The question is only raised because of your wacky theory, and who is going to be making any accusation?

Were both YG & Jaquen ever living in the manse at the same time?

By nobody relying on the text rather than bong rips.

Why would we have any doubt? What possible reason would he have to tell that lie at that point?

This is all in your head, not in the text.

No more or less than Aegon is.

What is the basis for claiming that? He's a Faceless Man.

I don't think you can be completely confident of that.

There is a lot of misrepresentation here, but its too late for me to respond to all of it. 

Suffice to say my evidence is in the text, pretty much all of it. Some of it is in the subtext, which is not so different. 

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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

its too late for me to respond to all of it.

That's what tomorrow is for.

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Suffice to say my evidence is in the text, pretty much all of it. Some of it is in the subtext, which is not so different. 

No, the text is what was actually published and all of us can read. We can all agree on what is in the text. The subtext is in your head.

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6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's what tomorrow is for.

No, the text is what was actually published and all of us can read. We can all agree on what is in the text. The subtext is in your head.

I'm not going to write a long post today, I have work to get to. 

But I assure you everything is from the text, including the symbolism and plot points directly added in.  

For example there is immediate language used between Pate's conversation with the alchemist that is a follow through with the discussion between Rhaegar and Lyanna in the house of the undying. 

I don't have the books with me so I can provide quotes which I apologize. 

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6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

For example there is immediate language used between Pate's conversation with the alchemist that is a follow through with the discussion between Rhaegar and Lyanna in the house of the undying. 

Rhaegar is talking to Elia, not Lyanna, when Dany is in the HotU. 

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1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He offers sacrifices to his gods, and you don't negotiate with your gods. And their arrangement wasn't stable.

But how did he get to do that? did it just cross his mind and it happened to work? and also, maybe negotiation was the incorrect word, but they do have a deal, Craster gives them his sons and they mostly leave him alone. 

Also, Craster is not entirely powerless in that relationship, after all, he's managed to give them only boys, whom he has no use for, it's basically free for him. Thi they do take some sheep from time to time.

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is more symbolism, and the arrows are important. 

Arya is compared to a dead apple multiple times throughout the book. She bites one, others fall on her head (I think in ASOS) and the kindly man compares her to one. 

I don't have the book with me right now, but Pate is killed by the alchemist for the key. 

Read the line about him being a thief. It is a continuation of Elia and Rhaegar's conversation. 

Just, what?

 

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No, that's not all the evidence. How he looks, his age range, his role in Harrenhall, and later the ghost of high heart. 

the only way he looks close to Rhaegar is he's described as beautiful, there's also the white hair, but he has no reason to have red hair, as no one in Aegon's family has red hair.

We don't know Jaqen's age, he could be 20, he could be 30, in fact, the way he behaves speaks of someone older than Aegon.

 

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I was just introducing another piece of evidence. Also that was his true face, he changes into the alchemist even as he is returning to the house of black and white because he doesn't want Varys' spies to catch him (notice him).

We have no reason to believe that's his true face, in fact, the fact that he uses a different name with that face indicates that that face belongs to that name, and therefore is not his true face.

 

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In the grand scheme of things I am not. 

That line could have played out any number of ways but it did not. I wouldn't expect GRRM to show his hand that early and that easily. 

The parallels to the tourney and Arya's visit to Harrenhall are clear. Now we have a specific scene under the weirwood tree. Jaqen is kneels in front of Arya and "pledges" (key word) to help her. 

She then asks if she can kill a king. He says who, Joffrey? And then she whispers his name. 

Note there is more to the dialogue than just that. A lot of her lines about the woman, man, and septon are important, but that is differening evidence. 

We can't establish a parallel based on this because we have only two elements: Arya as Lyanna and Harrenhall, if Jaqen had won a tourney and crowned Arya QOLAB then you can make an argument for him paralleling Rhaegar, but the scene you claim they are paralleling is not a scene the reader knows has happened, so it can't establish a parallel, you rely on assumptions. 

"Jon Snow is a parallel to superman, because Ned found him after he crashlanded in a space pod" I'm inventing the part that makes the parallel

I'll try to explain clearly because I said this many times before, yet you refuse to understand, so here are the two 'scenes':

 

Rhaegar   -     Lyanna     -       Harrenhall

 

Harrenhall    -   Arya    -     pledge in heart tree

 

So, for the parallel to work there must be something else than just Arya as a parallel to Lyanna and Harrenhall, or else we can claim that any man with her in Harrenhall is a parallel to Rhaegar: Hotpie, Gendry, Weese, Roose Bolton, etc. 

So, if we had a scene of Rhaegar pledging something to Lyanna in a hearth tree in Harrenhall there could be a parallel (or just a coincidence) but such a scene does not exist (that we are aware of) so no one could call it a parallel you see? we get only two elements that are way too generic.

For example, keeping in line with your parallel in The Hand's Tourney we have Arya, as parallel to Lyanna, and a tourney, like the tourney in Harrenhall, two generic elements. Does this mean that Loras is in love with Arya? no, because we need more elements to establish a parallel.

 

 

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Going to the ghost of high heart, she tells Arya that she has already suffered grief thanks to Summerhall and she needs "none of yours". 

Arya is tied to Aegon, and the second Summerhall (cracking a dragon egg).

In here we have the same problem again. There's no indication in the story for a second Harrenhall, and Arya isn't tied to Aegon, so there's no reason Arya would scare TGOHH for this reason. Also, even if there's a second SH, Arya likely won't be a part of it, so why would she being 'close to Aegon' be enough to bring up this vision? 

It would be like looking at Tyrion and seeing the Red Wedding because he's close to Tywin.

 

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They meet up near Harrenhall a second time. 

No evidence of that

 

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The discussion between Rhaegar and Elia is showed twice in two separate books. She knows he needs a third child for the prophecy, but she is too weak to bare another. So they discuss him marrying a second wife. 

We don;t know that, and it's wayyyyy to unlikely, the faith won't allow polygamy.

 

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The lines are first shown in the house of the undying, then Between Pate and the alchemist "I am no thief". 

whaaaaa

 

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Rhaegar knows Lyanna is betrothed, and he ends the conversation with "I guess I am a thief". 

aaaaaaat?

 

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We know for him to be alive the baby swap must have happened, and them means taking him across the narrow sea. And we know he must have occupied space in the mansion for Viserys and Daenerys to not be let in until much later. Among other things.

But we don't know if the baby swap happened, and we don't know if he's alive. Also, the one occupying space in the mansion could be, you know, Young Griff? whom Illyrio seems to care about? indicating that he's known him for  along time?

 

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The baby chews on ginger. Just like in Harrenhall. The swaddling cloths are taken from the nursery, and there are people yet alive who could identify them. Again this isn't like today where cloths are mass produced. 

Nope. YG likes ginger candy, you shouldn't give candy to babies.

Also there's only one mention of Jaqen smelling like ginger in the whole of ACOK, not even chewing.

The clothes... you are not answering why a grown adult would travel with his baby clothes, also, no one would remember 18 year old clothes, specially since most of the people who knew the baby are dead. And clothes aren't mass produces, but you can have a good taylor replicate them.

 

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The golden dragon is just one piece I use to show the parallels in that chapter. The background follows his role in the first three books. Him looking to crack a dragon egg can be figured out without Pate. It just shows the two characters have symbolic parallels. 

There are no parallels in that chapter tho. You are making everything up: Pate wants a golden dragon, hurray, but we know not of Aegon wanting a dragon, so there's no parallel. And you made up entirely the faceless Aegon backstory, so it couldn't be a paralllel.

 

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No. It means he was put there for a reason since a highly trained assassin would not mess up and be arrested by the gold cloaks.

I agree with that, but that doesn't mean he's Aegon, or else Rorge and Biter, who accompany him, would need to be Aegon followers or something

 

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YG is too young to be the real Aegon. 

Based on Tyrion's assessment, he could be off, the boy could be late to mature, or Aegon could be fake, but that doesn't mean the real Aegon is alive and a facelssman

 

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I know, I acknowledge this in the other post. But they would not get rid of him so easily with the threat of someone finding out. 

There'd be no threat tho... he's just a valiryan looking slave

 

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She changes perspectives in her story. 

Why? How do you know? is there evidence?

 

Can you reply to any of the following:

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, since you are not talking about YG, we don't know anything about this timeline, so absolutely anything could fit.

 

again, circular "Jaqen is Aegon because Pate's search for a dragon parallels Aegon's search for a dragon egg, also Aegon is searching a dragon egg because it parallels Pate's search for a golden dragon". Nonsense.

 

Why would Rhaegar use them, instead of loyal friends like Jon Con, The Knight of Kisses, Whent, Hightower or Dayne?

 

What for?

 

Citation needed. Or is this another case of "things are true if you believe them to be true"?

 

Again, circular argument "he was brought tho the HOBAW because he's Jaqen, he's Jaqen because he went to the HOBAW" 

I'm asking for evidence that Aegon went to the HOBAW, not that Jaqen did.

It fits the timeline because there's only one thing we know about that timeline  is that he was born in 281/282, anything that happens after that would fit. Things that would fit:

he was swapped with Jon Snow; He was swapped with Robb Stark, He was swapped with Theon Greyjoy, he was trained as an Unsullied; he's north of The Wall; he's part of Euron's crew; he's Daario, etc

 

Nope. You draw parallels and then invent backstory so they fit, but based on what the series has written, based on the text, there's absolutely no reason to think Aegon is Jaqen, no one has motive to save him and then essentially kill him, and it makes no sense.

 

They where scared of letting him go, so they gave him away?

 

Where did you get the 13 years age limit for the HOBAW?

 

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OP makes points but I doubt Tolkien would have as much acclaim for his accomplishments if he stopped writing the Lord of the Rings, sunk his time into a TV show of it, published Volume 1 of the Silmarillion, went on press tours for it, helped developed TV shows for it (and other assorted projects), and never finished LOTR.

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11 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

J

 

We can't establish a parallel based on this because we have only two elements: Arya as Lyanna and Harrenhall, if Jaqen had won a tourney and crowned Arya QOLAB then you can make an argument for him paralleling Rhaegar, but the scene you claim they are paralleling is not a scene the reader knows has happened, so it can't establish a parallel, you rely on assumptions. 

"Jon Snow is a parallel to superman, because Ned found him after he crashlanded in a space pod" I'm inventing the part that makes the parallel

I'll try to explain clearly because I said this many times before, yet you refuse to understand, so here are the two 'scenes':

 

Rhaegar   -     Lyanna     -       Harrenhall

 

Harrenhall    -   Arya    -     pledge in heart tree

 

So, for the parallel to work there must be something else than just Arya as a parallel to Lyanna and Harrenhall, or else we can claim that any man with her in Harrenhall is a parallel to Rhaegar: Hotpie, Gendry, Weese, Roose Bolton, etc. 

So, if we had a scene of Rhaegar pledging something to Lyanna in a hearth tree in Harrenhall there could be a parallel (or just a coincidence) but such a scene does not exist (that we are aware of) so no one could call it a parallel you see? we get only two elements that are way too generic.

For example, keeping in line with your parallel in The Hand's Tourney we have Arya, as parallel to Lyanna, and a tourney, like the tourney in Harrenhall, two generic elements. Does this mean that Loras is in love with Arya? no, because we need more elements to establish a parallel.

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to respond to all of this because I really need to finish an essay by the end of today and I don't want to keep sidetracking myself. 

I'll get back to the rest of this on the weekend or monday. 

But for this, I really need to say: It's a false comparison. 

Rhaegar does kidnap Lyanna near Harrenhall on his way north, that we know. 

The chances that they married under the heart tree so the son is legitimate is very different from saying Ned found Jon in an alien crash pod. 

Do you see how these are false equivalencies? Same thing with Rob being the parallel to Pate, or Rob being the alchemist. 

These things are no where near similar.  

Hot Pie, etc. are characters in Harrenhall but again there are three I need you to notice: 

Gendry, Arya, and Jaqen. 

Robert, Lyanna, and Rhaegar. 

The first two are paired together, and Gendry wants Arya to stay away from the other man. 

Bu Arya eventual chooses him over Gendry. Its a subversion of the typical romantic trope since you'd think those two would be paired together, but it happened much in the same way as what happened in Harrenhall.  

 

Also, Elia and Rhaegar were speaking of a third child when the vision ended: 

"“There must be one more...the dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded…" 

Then read the lines between Pate and the alchemist: "I am no thief" 

"Have you decided what you are?" 

"I suppose I am a thief".  

 

Notice he is drumming his harp, his music made Lyanna weep. He stole her heart, and now he wants to take her from Robert. 

"There must be one more... the dragon has three heads." 

Elia can't provide him a third child.

Edited by butterweedstrover

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

The chances that they married under the heart tree so the son is legitimate is very different from saying Ned found Jon in an alien crash pod. 

Such chances are dim to say the least, as Rhaegar was already married, so a second marriage wouldn't be legal. Also, you have no evidence they married, so no evidence they swore anything under a hearth tree

 

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Do you see how these are false equivalencies? Same thing with Rob being the parallel to Pate, or Rob being the alchemist. 

No, I don't. With the Robb/Alchemist parallel I drew the same parallels you did, care to explain why one works and the other one doesn't?

 

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Gendry, Arya, and Jaqen. 

Robert, Lyanna, and Rhaegar. 

Yes, but you are using the fact that Jaqen parallels Rhaegar to prove his Rhaegar's son and the fact that he's Rhaegar's son to prove he parallels Rhaegar. See how it's circular?

 

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Bu Arya eventual chooses him over Gendry. Its a subversion of the typical romantic trope since you'd think those two would be paired together, but it happened much in the same way as what happened in Harrenhall.  

Nope, as for what we know Lyanna didn't 'choose' Rhaegar in Harrenhall, also Arya didn't choose Jaqen, she turned him down and continued traveling with Gendry, and she genuinely likes Gendry better.

 

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Also, Elia and Rhaegar were speaking of a third child when the vision ended: 

"“There must be one more...the dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded…" 

Then read the lines between Pate and the alchemist: "I am no thief" 

"Have you decided what you are?" 

"I suppose I am a thief".  

Notice he is drumming his harp, his music made Lyanna weep. He stole her heart, and now he wants to take her from Robert. 

You see how that's twisted logic right? 

What connects Pate saying he's a thief to Rhaegar? Nothing, you only connect it because you claim the Alchemist is Rhaegar's son, but that again is circular: "the Alchemist is Aegon because Pate being a thief parallels Rhaegar being a thief (no one called Rhaegar a thief) but also, Pate  being a thief parallels Reaghar being a thief because the Alchemist is Aegon".

Nothing in the first scene points to the second. Nothing in the second scene points to the first. So drawing a parallel between those two scenes just based on some lines that don't connect makes no sense. We could claim that it's a parallel to Daario, because he stole Danys hearth and Dany from Hizdar. Or a parallel to Euron because he stole Victarion's wife. Or a parallel to Jeyne Westerling because she stole Robb's hearth and him from Random Frey Girl. Or Harry The Heir stealing Sansa form Sweetrobin. LF staling Sansa from Tyrion. Margeary stealing Joff from Sansa. The Hound stealing Arya from The Brotherhood. Theon stealing Jeyne from Ramsay. But the thing is we can't, because none of these scenes are tied together in a literary or temporal way, also Pate stole a key, not a woman (whom you can't steal) and Rhaegar isn't described as a thief.

Keep in mind, the 'parallel' I drew between Robb and The Alchemist in a few minutes, so it's likely that if I wanted too I could find a better match just by relying in your faulty logic.

 

Let's review your evidence shall we:

 

Jaqen smells like ginger once - YG likes ginger candy

Inconsequential, as YG isn't Aegon in your theory and there's no reason that Illyrio would give Aegon a candy he doesn't like, he seems to like the boy and candy doesn't prove legitimacy, furthermore no one would know of Aegon's taste for candied ginger.

 

Both Jaqen and Rhaegar are described as beautiful and both have white hair

A lot of character's throughout the story are described as beautiful.

Jaqen also has red hair, which Aegon shouldn't have as there are no redheads in his family tree.

Jaqen hair is white, tho Rhaegar's is silver.

None of this matters, as Jaqen's isn't likely Jaqen's true face, as when faceless men take a new face they take a new identity with it. No faceless men would be conductiing faceless men business with his true face, and he seems to be in the HOBAW's good side, as he recommends Arya to them.

 

Harrenhall  Rhaegar/Lyanna-Jaqen/Arya parallel

It requires Jaqen to be Aegon for the parallel to work, therefore is not useful as evidence he's Aegon.

 

Pate's backstory parallel

It depends on a backstory you completely made up for it to work. This backstory is a complete fabrication, it's not listed anywhere and there's no reason to believe it is so, the only reason you would believe something like that is to justify this theory, so again we have a circular argument.

There's also holes in this made up backstory for example:

The HOBAW's age limit, which seems to be something you made up.

Why would Illyrio and Varys save Aegon only to discard him? Why wouldn't them kill him? why wouldn't them keep him as a slave? why would them teach him who he truly is if they wan't YG on the throne? Why would The Waif know who he is? and why would she tell him? after all she's all about becoming no one. Why would Varys attempt to send him to The Wall when the HOBAW didn't work? Why would Aegon expect for Varys and Illyrio to help when they sold him to the HOBAW? 

But also,let's repeat this: there's no reason to suspect something like that ever happened, it could have, but nothing in the series points at it ever happening, the backstory you propose is made up entirely by you and therefore not evidence. GRRM would be a pretty shitty writer if he expected the reader to guess this.

 

The thief parallel

It just simply isn't a parallel, one character doing something that might be thought of as stealing (if you are sexist) and one character saying 'I'm a thief' twenty years later aren't parallels.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Such chances are dim to say the least, as Rhaegar was already married, so a second marriage wouldn't be legal. Also, you have no evidence they married, so no evidence they swore anything under a hearth tree

It was between the old gods, not the sevens. 

A septon wouldn't have married them of course. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

No, I don't. With the Robb/Alchemist parallel I drew the same parallels you did, care to explain why one works and the other one doesn't?

The Alchemist is Jaqen. 

Jaqen is a false name, he is really Aegon VI. 

You can agree or disagree, but there is no chance he is Robb. 

Why? Because (besides their being no evidence) those to are alive and active at the same time. 

Meanwhile Aegon is missing/presumed dead. Different characters. 

Its the same thing with your Sweetrobin/Jeyne comparison, the two don't work. 

Those are two separate characters, Aegon VI (the Valonqar) is an identity. 

 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, but you are using the fact that Jaqen parallels Rhaegar to prove his Rhaegar's son and the fact that he's Rhaegar's son to prove he parallels Rhaegar. See how it's circular? 

Not really, I look at his behavior in Harrenhall. 

He is described as regal, and he makes other women swoon. The men (like Rorge/Biter) fear and respect him. 

This is a parallel between Rhaegar, but in a different context. Rhaegar came as the charming prince, and he two had young men who looked up to him (Jon Connington talked about the young lords who rushed to Rhaegar's side. That includes Jaime BTW). 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Nope, as for what we know Lyanna didn't 'choose' Rhaegar in Harrenhall, also Arya didn't choose Jaqen, she turned him down and continued traveling with Gendry, and she genuinely likes Gendry better. 

We're talking about the events in Harrenhall. Gendry wants her to stay away from 'Jaqen', but eventually she goes to him for help. 

Lyanna also leaves Harrenhall with Robert, that is besides the point. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

You see how that's twisted logic right? 

What connects Pate saying he's a thief to Rhaegar? Nothing, you only connect it because you claim the Alchemist is Rhaegar's son, but that again is circular: "the Alchemist is Aegon because Pate being a thief parallels Rhaegar being a thief (no one called Rhaegar a thief) but also, Pate  being a thief parallels Reaghar being a thief because the Alchemist is Aegon". 

I don't think the thief line is proof of anything. I only added that in on retrospect, knowing the identity of the alchemist. 

Same with the Aragorn parallels. I don't use either of those as evidence, I just think they are cool tidbits to point out. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Nothing in the first scene points to the second. Nothing in the second scene points to the first. So drawing a parallel between those two scenes just based on some lines that don't connect makes no sense. We could claim that it's a parallel to Daario, because he stole Danys hearth and Dany from Hizdar. Or a parallel to Euron because he stole Victarion's wife. Or a parallel to Jeyne Westerling because she stole Robb's hearth and him from Random Frey Girl. Or Harry The Heir stealing Sansa form Sweetrobin. LF staling Sansa from Tyrion. Margeary stealing Joff from Sansa. The Hound stealing Arya from The Brotherhood. Theon stealing Jeyne from Ramsay. But the thing is we can't, because none of these scenes are tied together in a literary or temporal way, also Pate stole a key, not a woman (whom you can't steal) and Rhaegar isn't described as a thief. 

Again, this is being retrospective, but I'll give you more examples of why "thief" doesn't apply to just about anyone. 

Besides the alchemist having no clear parallels to any of these other people, we have to understand Aegon VI is an identity. Daario, Victarion, etc. are all active characters elsewhere in the world doing different things. They are not the alchemist. 

But lets look at some of the details: 

Rosey (the girl Pate wants) is a maid of fifteen (Just like Lyanna at the year of the tourney). He wants a golden dragon for the girl. He wants to take the girl.  

The alchemist asks him about the key, but he is thinking about the girl. He wants to take the girl. 

"Are you a thief" then becomes about taking the maiden. "I suppose I am". 

The alchemist speaks "sadly" when they part ways, and his last thoughts are of rosey. 

There is more symbolism of the rose, and the wine (in ASOIAF wine usually means lie, but I'm not going to get into all that). 

 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Keep in mind, the 'parallel' I drew between Robb and The Alchemist in a few minutes, so it's likely that if I wanted too I could find a better match just by relying in your faulty logic. 

But they don't work because the alchemist is not Robb. 

Robb is a character we saw die. Aegon VI is an identity of who we have not met and is presumed dead. These are false equivalencies. 

 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Jaqen smells like ginger once - YG likes ginger candy

Inconsequential, as YG isn't Aegon in your theory and there's no reason that Illyrio would give Aegon a candy he doesn't like, he seems to like the boy and candy doesn't prove legitimacy, furthermore no one would know of Aegon's taste for candied ginger. 

It was specific word choice that matters.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Both Jaqen and Rhaegar are described as beautiful and both have white hair

A lot of character's throughout the story are described as beautiful.

Jaqen also has red hair, which Aegon shouldn't have as there are no redheads in his family tree.

Jaqen hair is white, tho Rhaegar's is silver. 

He is regal, young, beautiful, with a chiseled face (GRRM has identified that word as a marking of the Targaryen look), and he makes women "swoon". 

This goes along with Valonqar. Valonqar is Valyrian for little brother. Aegon VI has Valyrian blood, he is the younger brother. "Until there comes another, younger and more beautiful" (these are descriptive adjectives, not nouns). Who else is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar than his son? 

Beautiful is important here because of the gender bias. We associate "beautiful" with female which is why when so many people read Maggy's prophecy they (mistakenly) believe the word "queen" is in it (as does Cersei).  

A man who fits his descriptions and is described as regal and beautiful, who is of the right age, follows the proper timeline both in geographic location, and goal (Pate wants his "dragon", Just like the alchemist wants his "dragon". The egg he won from fulfilling the contract).

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

None of this matters, as Jaqen's isn't likely Jaqen's true face, as when faceless men take a new face they take a new identity with it. No faceless men would be conductiing faceless men business with his true face, and he seems to be in the HOBAW's good side, as he recommends Arya to them. 

Well I believe he has broken many rules. He did as the alchemist, and he does looking to steal from the citadel (not the FM's MO). 

I don't even believe they would have taken the contract from Euron. 

Remember Ebrose's "sighs". 

The kindly man "sighs" at Arya when she rejects the path and embraces her own identity. Coming to westeros as himself with his own face is the whole point. He only changes faces after Harrenhall, after he has been locked up in the black cells, and when he leaves to return to the house of black and white. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Harrenhall  Rhaegar/Lyanna-Jaqen/Arya parallel

It requires Jaqen to be Aegon for the parallel to work, therefore is not useful as evidence he's Aegon. 

No. As I said above their are parallels regardless. He comes in Regally, and women swoon. He is tied with Arya, who has obvious symbolical similarities to Lyanna (horse girl/horseface, wild stark looks).  

And those parallels are evidence in of themselves. If an act is being played out, you need actors for each role. Harrenhall was a twisted retelling of the tourney. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Pate's backstory parallel

It depends on a backstory you completely made up for it to work. This backstory is a complete fabrication, it's not listed anywhere and there's no reason to believe it is so, the only reason you would believe something like that is to justify this theory, so again we have a circular argument. 

Ebrose as the kindly man is obvious, the rest is about revealing what has happened in the Alchemist's time in the first three books. Which again fits perfectly with his true identity. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

There's also holes in this made up backstory for example:

The HOBAW's age limit, which seems to be something you made up. 

It's not. If it is then I apologize, but I swear I think its true. I'll get back to you once I find out where I got this.  

Either way five + thirteen is eighteen which is how old Aegon VI should be, or the alchemist. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Why would Illyrio and Varys save Aegon only to discard him? Why wouldn't them kill him? why wouldn't them keep him as a slave? why would them teach him who he truly is if they wan't YG on the throne? Why would The Waif know who he is? and why would she tell him? after all she's all about becoming no one. Why would Varys attempt to send him to The Wall when the HOBAW didn't work? Why would Aegon expect for Varys and Illyrio to help when they sold him to the HOBAW?  

These are things we don't know (minus the waif). 

It could play out in different ways, and we would have to read to find out. My guess is he thought since Varys/Illyrio were his foster parents, they would support his claim.  

Now how he discovered his identity, and why the waif would tell him is different. 

She had her baby swapped, the one that died in Aegon's place. She was Elia's champion, and here is her son. The kindly man would not approve, but alas she felt she owed both Elia and Rhaegar. 

Elia because she died, and Rhaegar because she (the waif) betrayed him. According to AWOIAF (I think), the waif went to Brandon and told him that Rhaegar meant to use Lyanna for the prophecy. She set the starks against the prince, because she wanted to support Elia. She could not predict the war.  

If you can tell, the waif is Ashara Dayne. I wrote about this elsewhere, so I won't repost here. This is a separate discussion. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

But also,let's repeat this: there's no reason to suspect something like that ever happened, it could have, but nothing in the series points at it ever happening, the backstory you propose is made up entirely by you and therefore not evidence. GRRM would be a pretty shitty writer if he expected the reader to guess this. 

There is much and more in the text. Look at the situation in the prologue. 

It is not about Robb, or Catelyn, or any of the other characters you have brought into the discussion. 

It is about the alchemist, a dragon, a fifteen year old girl, the sphinx, Jaqen, the man who was with Arya at Harrenhall. 

Look at the context of the discussion. And again there is more evidence, much of which I don't have because the books are not with me. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

The thief parallel

It just simply isn't a parallel, one character doing something that might be thought of as stealing (if you are sexist) and one character saying 'I'm a thief' twenty years later aren't parallels.

 

 

I wrote more about this above. 

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12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It was between the old gods, not the sevens. 

A septon wouldn't have married them of course. 

Westerosi law is tied to The Faith Of The Seven, a polygamous marriage wouldn't be allowed.

Also we have no reason to suspect The Old Gods are okay with polygamy.

Also, Rhaegar has no reason for wanting her to be his wife, he wants a savior, he doesn't need it to be legitimate. Also polygamy would bring many problems to him and Lyanna would still be considered his mistress by most, likely including the law, and their children would still be bastards, defeating the whole purpose of the marriage.

Also, saying that it could've happening is no evidence for it happening, so we have no evidence that it did, and the fact that it's likely illegal and served no purpose points to it not happening.

 

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The Alchemist is Jaqen. 

Jaqen is a false name, he is really Aegon VI. 

No evidence for that

 

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You can agree or disagree, but there is no chance he is Robb. 

I agree, like there is no chance that he is Aegon.

 

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Why? Because (besides their being no evidence) those to are alive and active at the same time. 

Did you read my 'parallel'? I said that he became Robb after stealing his face from The Westerlands. Now, I don't think that happened, I was just showing you how if you invent some backstory anything could fit.

 

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Meanwhile Aegon is missing/presumed dead. Different characters. 

Well, he's likely either dead or Young Griff, there's no reason to believe he's both alive and not Young Griff, as Young Griff is the only reason we have to think he's alive. And Jaqen and Young Griff are two different characters.

 

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Those are two separate characters, Aegon VI (the Valonqar) is an identity. 

Aegon is a character, not an identity.

The Valonqar is a prophecy, and it's not a fact that Aegon is The Valonqar, he might be, but it isn't certain.

 

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Not really, I look at his behavior in Harrenhall. 

He is described as regal, and he makes other women swoon. The men (like Rorge/Biter) fear and respect him. 

This is a parallel between Rhaegar, but in a different context. Rhaegar came as the charming prince, and he two had young men who looked up to him (Jon Connington talked about the young lords who rushed to Rhaegar's side. That includes Jaime BTW). 

He's never described as regal. Many men make women swoon, many men cause fear and respect among other men, that is no proof that he's a parallel to Rhaegar.

Tywin is regal, feared and respected, and in his youth women definitely swooned over him, same with Jaimie, same with Robert, same with many other characters, are they all Rhaegar's son?

 

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We're talking about the events in Harrenhall. Gendry wants her to stay away from 'Jaqen', but eventually she goes to him for help. 

Lyanna also leaves Harrenhall with Robert, that is besides the point. 

That's not how parallels work. Also, Lyanna didn't leave Harrenhall with Robert

 

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I don't think the thief line is proof of anything. I only added that in on retrospect, knowing the identity of the alchemist. 

Same with the Aragorn parallels. I don't use either of those as evidence, I just think they are cool tidbits to point out. 

Even if Jaqen was Rhaegar's son, which he definitely isn't, that 'thief' scene wouldn't mean anything, but it's great you admit it's not evidence, we can stop talking about it.

 

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But they don't work because the alchemist is not Robb. 

Exactly the same reason why the Aegon ''''''''parallels''''''''''' don't work

 

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It was specific word choice that matters.

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By the time Arya lit her stub of a candle, only a faint smell remained of him, a whiff of ginger and cloves lingering in the air.

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"There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it." 

Those are all the references to ginger that show up near both characters. What about the word choice makes a parallel?

 

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He is regal, young, beautiful, with a chiseled face (GRRM has identified that word as a marking of the Targaryen look), and he makes women "swoon". 

Lots of men are described as young and beautiful, I provided a list.

Theword chiseled in regards to a face only shows up when Cat talks about Jason Mallister, the word chiseled never shows up when talking about Jaqen.

The word 'swoon' is never mentioned in the whole series.

 

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This goes along with Valonqar. Valonqar is Valyrian for little brother. Aegon VI has Valyrian blood, he is the younger brother. "Until there comes another, younger and more beautiful" (these are descriptive adjectives, not nouns). Who else is a younger and more beautiful version of Rhaegar than his son? 

The younger and more beautiful line is in reference to Cersei, not to Rhaegar.

The word being in valyrian means nothing, I just saw a Lindsay Ellis video in which she calls Trump "El Presidente" does that mean that Trump has Spanish or Latine blood?

Also, none of this means anything for Jaqen

 

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A man who fits his descriptions and is described as regal and beautiful, who is of the right age, follows the proper timeline both in geographic location, and goal (Pate wants his "dragon", Just like the alchemist wants his "dragon". The egg he won from fulfilling the contract).

The description doesn't fit. You keep ignoring the red hair part, but I'll keep bringing it up. Aegon shouldn't have red hair.

We don't know his age, so we can't say he is of the right age. 

His accent doesn't match.

Given that there is no timeline for the supposed Aegon, we can't say he follows it, as you are making it up.

We don't know either Jaqen's not Aegon's goal, so we can't say they share it.

We don't know if the Alchemist wants a dragon.

So nothing of this makes sense.

 

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Well I believe he has broken many rules. He did as the alchemist, and he does looking to steal from the citadel (not the FM's MO). 

I don't care about what you believe, we have no reason to suspect he has broken any rules, and he seems to be in good terms with the HOBAW

 

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I don't even believe they would have taken the contract from Euron. 

Read above. Also we don't know if they did. And also we don't know if Jaqen was the one to do it.

 

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Remember Ebrose's "sighs". 

The kindly man "sighs" at Arya when she rejects the path and embraces her own identity. Coming to westeros as himself with his own face is the whole point. He only changes faces after Harrenhall, after he has been locked up in the black cells, and when he leaves to return to the house of black and white. 

Many characters sigh, that means nothing

 

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No. As I said above their are parallels regardless. He comes in Regally, and women swoon. He is tied with Arya, who has obvious symbolical similarities to Lyanna (horse girl/horseface, wild stark looks).  

Neither of those words are mentioned near him.

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And those parallels are evidence in of themselves. If an act is being played out, you need actors for each role. Harrenhall was a twisted retelling of the tourney. 

Except you claimed it wasn't a retelling of the tourney, you claimed it was a retelling of R&L's return to HH after she's kidnapped. 

It would be a piss poor retelling too, as there's no crowning, no mistery knight, no slight of one's wife, no Howland, Brandon, or Ned, no Jaimie and, yeah, no tourney.

 

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Ebrose as the kindly man is obvious, the rest is about revealing what has happened in the Alchemist's time in the first three books. Which again fits perfectly with his true identity. 

it's not obvious, it's ridiculous, just because the two sigh doesn't make them parallels.

YOU CAN'T KNOW IT FITS BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOTHING OF WHAT HE DID, YOU ARE MAKING IT UP.

 

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It's not. If it is then I apologize, but I swear I think its true. I'll get back to you once I find out where I got this. 

I can tel you it isn't. There's no mention of it in the books, nor TWOIAF, nor the app, nor the wiki. It's made up, like most of your argument.

 

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 Either way five + thirteen is eighteen which is how old Aegon VI should be, or the alchemist. 

Or Jon, or Robb, or Loras, or Lancel, or Olyvar, or Quentyn, or Sam. It proves nothing. We have no idea of when The Alchemist was born.

 

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These are things we don't know (minus the waif). 

It could play out in different ways, and we would have to read to find out. My guess is he thought since Varys/Illyrio were his foster parents, they would support his claim.  

Now how he discovered his identity, and why the waif would tell him is different. 

She had her baby swapped, the one that died in Aegon's place. She was Elia's champion, and here is her son. The kindly man would not approve, but alas she felt she owed both Elia and Rhaegar. 

Elia because she died, and Rhaegar because she (the waif) betrayed him. According to AWOIAF (I think), the waif went to Brandon and told him that Rhaegar meant to use Lyanna for the prophecy. She set the starks against the prince, because she wanted to support Elia. She could not predict the war.  

If you can tell, the waif is Ashara Dayne. I wrote about this elsewhere, so I won't repost here. This is a separate discussion. 

Oh great, some more made up madness.

Also, and I can't believe I have to ay this, but everyone knows Ashara is Pretty Merris, so she can't be The Waif.

 

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There is much and more in the text. Look at the situation in the prologue. 

It is not about Robb, or Catelyn, or any of the other characters you have brought into the discussion. 

It is about the alchemist, a dragon, a fifteen year old girl, the sphinx, Jaqen, the man who was with Arya at Harrenhall. 

Look at the context of the discussion. And again there is more evidence, much of which I don't have because the books are not with me. 

So?? that's how prologues are, they are about minor characters who introduce a new storyline and die, there's still no evidence for Aegon being Jaqen. you now have 4 pieces of 'evidence, yet none of them carry enough weight of the theory:

 

ginger is a really small coincidence, nothing else

appearance doesn't match, and even if it did, it's almost certainly not his true face

Harrenhall parallel there's not enough matching elements to make it a parallel

Pate's backstory some bullshit you made up (or else tell me where do you get it from without mentioning the parallel and withouth preposterous guessing)

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23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Westerosi law is tied to The Faith Of The Seven, a polygamous marriage wouldn't be allowed.

Also we have no reason to suspect The Old Gods are okay with polygamy.

Also, Rhaegar has no reason for wanting her to be his wife, he wants a savior, he doesn't need it to be legitimate. Also polygamy would bring many problems to him and Lyanna would still be considered his mistress by most, likely including the law, and their children would still be bastards, defeating the whole purpose of the marriage.

Also, saying that it could've happening is no evidence for it happening, so we have no evidence that it did, and the fact that it's likely illegal and served no purpose points to it not happening. 

Likely illegal, etc. ignores all the facts that Rhaegar is a Targaryen, the conqueror had two wives. 

Its like saying incestual marriages are not allowed, being a king, and a Targaryen, does not make one bound to some strict constitution. 

Regardless something happened between them at the time of the kidnapping, and they obviously had a relationship (consensual or otherwise). 

These are not the same parameters as saying it is all made up or anything else could be true. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

No evidence for that 

Yes there is. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

I agree, like there is no chance that he is Aegon. 

How dismissive, despite this entire discussion. 

You don't even claim it is unlikely, you claim there is no chance. 

Here is the problem: A facelessman stealing a face does not make them that person. 

Stealing the face of Robb (for example) does not make them Robb. They still have their own identity (as shown in Arya's chapters). 

Aegon VI is someone most people believe is dead. YG claims his identity. 

This is different from a living person who is known and active in the world. Saying Jeyne and Sweetrobin are the same person is impossible because they are two separate characters in separate parts of the world. 

Here let me explain it like this: Lets say there are two people. person a and person b 

Person a has never been seen before, person b has. In this equation (granting that said person fits the description) person b can claim person a's identity. 

Now if person a and b are neighbor, you cannot claim they are the same person because they are two different people. 

The comparison doesn't work.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Did you read my 'parallel'? I said that he became Robb after stealing his face from The Westerlands. Now, I don't think that happened, I was just showing you how if you invent some backstory anything could fit.

 

Robb would still be dead, stealing his face does not make the alchemist Robb. 

An identity, and a person are two different things. 

Saying you are Rhaegar and Elia's son, a person who has been believed dead, is different from saying you are this well known person who other people know of.  

I really don't know how else I can phrase this. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, he's likely either dead or Young Griff, there's no reason to believe he's both alive and not Young Griff, as Young Griff is the only reason we have to think he's alive. And Jaqen and Young Griff are two different characters. 

Ok, you see, this helps. 

YG and 'Jaqen' (false name) are two different people (correct). 

Both of them could claim the identity of Aegon (for example) because Aegon VI is unknown. 

Do you see the difference between YG claiming to be Aegon VI and YG claiming to be Loras Tyrell? 

Those are two active people, and it cannot be true. 

That is the difference we are dealing with when saying something "cannot be true".

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Aegon is a character, not an identity. 

Has anyone met him before? 

If the answer is no, then he is an identity someone can claim. 

He is not an active character.  

People would debate based on similarities, timeline, etc. 

But you can see the comparison with things like Loras and the Alchemist (two separate agents) being the same person is not of the same discussion length. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

He's never described as regal. Many men make women swoon, many men cause fear and respect among other men, that is no proof that he's a parallel to Rhaegar. 

He is, in ACOK. The word regal is used. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Tywin is regal, feared and respected, and in his youth women definitely swooned over him, same with Jaimie, same with Robert, same with many other characters, are they all Rhaegar's son? 

(breath). 

Ok. 

Tywin is a person, like George Bush. 

Jaqen is a person, like Jackie Chan. 

These two people cannot be the same person. 

NOT because it is unlikely, but because it is a logical fallacy.  

I really hope you are being honest with this line of discussion.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

That's not how parallels work. Also, Lyanna didn't leave Harrenhall with Robert 

Lyanna was betrothed to Robert when she came, she was betrothed to Robert when she left. The kidnapping happened a year later. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Even if Jaqen was Rhaegar's son, which he definitely isn't, that 'thief' scene wouldn't mean anything, but it's great you admit it's not evidence, we can stop talking about it. 

Why cut me off like that? I went on to detail how the lines fit together, now you won't engage. Did you see something you don't like? 

It's retrospective in that it becomes apparent after the conclusion is made, but it also reinforces the primary statement through textual evidence. 

Please, I would like to know your opinion, and what you think. I wouldn't have written about it otherwise. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Exactly the same reason why the Aegon ''''''''parallels''''''''''' don't work 

Oh god not this again. 

Lets forget about what I believe for a second: 

Jaqen could be Aegon. 

He could also not be. 

Jaqen CAN NOT be Robb. 

Do. You. See. The. Difference. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Those are all the references to ginger that show up near both characters. What about the word choice makes a parallel? 

Because of his role in the story, and the combination with Ilyrio's chest. 

The ginger is important otherwise it wouldn't be brought up as regards to the baby swap. It's also not a common factor among different characters. 

But you see, when you have a character with the proper age, physical description, and geographic disposition (he came over to westeros from Braavos) you need to consider the possibility. 

That is not the same thing as justifying any and every character being anyone. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Lots of men are described as young and beautiful, I provided a list.

Theword chiseled in regards to a face only shows up when Cat talks about Jason Mallister, the word chiseled never shows up when talking about Jaqen.

The word 'swoon' is never mentioned in the whole series. 

Lots of people can't be Aegon just from situation circumstance, including Jason Mallister. 

The features together are what make up the whole. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

The younger and more beautiful line is in reference to Cersei, not to Rhaegar. 

That is your belief, but I have already explained my reasoning. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The word being in valyrian means nothing, I just saw a Lindsay Ellis video in which she calls Trump "El Presidente" does that mean that Trump has Spanish or Latine blood? 

It means something, or else it wouldn't be translated. 

I don't know how you can compare Maggy the frog telling a specific prophecy with Lindsay Ellis calling Trump President in a different language. 

But I'll give you one thing, there is a reason Lindsay did it. Whether it was because of his relationship to Hispanic or whatever, the language being spoken does not just change for a specific word without reason. 

But I don't think I would have to explain this. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, none of this means anything for Jaqen 

In the context of my post, it does.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

The description doesn't fit. You keep ignoring the red hair part, but I'll keep bringing it up. Aegon shouldn't have red hair. 

I've already explained this. The white is for his father Rhaegar, the red is for Elia Martell (house Martell's sigil is the sun). 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know his age, so we can't say he is of the right age.  

Young in this case puts us in the right range. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

His accent doesn't match. 

The Lorathi accent is faked. 

In fact it breaks when Arya accidently accuses him of being a king. This happens under the heart tree. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Given that there is no timeline for the supposed Aegon, we can't say he follows it, as you are making it up. 

We can if we look at the timeline of events inside and out of westeros. 

(When Aegon was born, who took him (Varys), where he was sent, when he came back, etc.).

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know either Jaqen's not Aegon's goal, so we can't say they share it. 

Interestingly it is pretty common to assume the Alchemist has the dragon egg among the fanbase. 

Aegon himself is an identity at this point (until the truth is revealed). His goal is whatever person is claiming to be him (or nothing if he is dead). 

Looking to crack a dragon egg (which would prove his legitimacy) is certainly in lines with things a character believing to be the dragon heir would do (In fact Dany did do this).

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know if the Alchemist wants a dragon.

So nothing of this makes sense. 

Going off of this we also don't know Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. 

Things are interpreted. That is why even most people believe the Alchemist is looking to crack a dragon egg, even if they have no clue who the alchemist is. 

It goes back to the keys, the locked away book, and the contract to kill Balon. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

I don't care about what you believe, we have no reason to suspect he has broken any rules, and he seems to be in good terms with the HOBAW

Sure: You're not suppose to look into the eyes of someone you're about to kill. 

You're also (from what we know), not suppose to break into the citadel and steal an item (of course there could be exceptions but we have not been told of any yet).

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Read above. Also we don't know if they did. And also we don't know if Jaqen was the one to do it. 

If they didn't it would make his actions even more covert/breaking the rules.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Many characters sigh, that means nothing

 

Lets look at the context: 

1. We know Jaqen is the alchemist. 

2. We know Jaqen is a facelessman  

3. We know the kindly man is some sort of mentor in the house of black and white 

4. We know the alchemist is about to kill Pate and steal his identity. 

5. We are told of a kindly old mentor who sighs. 

Now you can claim that is not who Ebrose is meant to represent, but that doesn't follow along with it could be anyone who sighs.

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Neither of those words are mentioned near him. 

Yes they are, in ACOK

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Except you claimed it wasn't a retelling of the tourney, you claimed it was a retelling of R&L's return to HH after she's kidnapped. 

It would be a piss poor retelling too, as there's no crowning, no mistery knight, no slight of one's wife, no Howland, Brandon, or Ned, no Jaimie and, yeah, no tourney. 

It's both, and its about Lyanna centrally (its from Arya's perspective). 

Her two lovers are Robert and Rhaegar, not Holwand, Brandon, or anyone else. 

And its not a tourney same way as the couples are not romantically engage. The pledge is a pledge to kill three people. This is again a twisted retelling. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

it's not obvious, it's ridiculous, just because the two sigh doesn't make them parallels.

YOU CAN'T KNOW IT FITS BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOTHING OF WHAT HE DID, YOU ARE MAKING IT UP. 

Read what I wrote above. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Or Jon, or Robb, or Loras, or Lancel, or Olyvar, or Quentyn, or Sam. It proves nothing. We have no idea of when The Alchemist was born.

First, Olyvar is not a book character. 

Second we are falling back into that trap I mentioned above. 

The Alchemist could be Rhaegar and Elia's son. 

He cannot be active characters totally separate from himself like Jon, Robb, or Loras. 

I don't know how else to say this. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Oh great, some more made up madness.

Also, and I can't believe I have to ay this, but everyone knows Ashara is Pretty Merris, so she can't be The Waif. 

This is what I am talking about, thank you. 

So you see this is a perfect demonstration. Pretty Merris is an active character. 

It is possible for her to be Ashara (an unknown), but it is impossible for her to be Brienne. 

I hope we are on the same page now. 

Anyways that's a fine theory, but I think from most of what I read Pretty Merris, if anyone, is Wenda the white fawn. Not Ashara. 

23 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

So?? that's how prologues are, they are about minor characters who introduce a new storyline and die, there's still no evidence for Aegon being Jaqen. you now have 4 pieces of 'evidence, yet none of them carry enough weight of the theory:

 

ginger is a really small coincidence, nothing else

appearance doesn't match, and even if it did, it's almost certainly not his true face

Harrenhall parallel there's not enough matching elements to make it a parallel

Pate's backstory some bullshit you made up (or else tell me where do you get it from without mentioning the parallel and withouth preposterous guessing)

There is of course more, and specifically it is because his character fits the sequence of events. Much of the other evidence is in posts like this one.

I added to Pate's story, to give more context. I did so here as well, but in the previous post you cut it off. 

I still don't know why. 

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