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The Dragon Requires Three Books

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37 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Likely illegal, etc. ignores all the facts that Rhaegar is a Targaryen, the conqueror had two wives. 

Who lived three hundred years ago and married before converting into The Faith

 

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Its like saying incestual marriages are not allowed, being a king, and a Targaryen, does not make one bound to some strict constitution. R

The Faith has protested many Targaryen betrothals, successfully ending them.

 

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egardless something happened between them at the time of the kidnapping, and they obviously had a relationship (consensual or otherwise). 

These are not the same parameters as saying it is all made up or anything else could be true. 

I agree, but I didn't say that, I said we have no evidence of it happening, so we can't use it to establish a parallel because we aren't sure it did. Things can't parallel things that might have happened, they can only parallel things that happened.

 

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How dismissive, despite this entire discussion. 

You don't even claim it is unlikely, you claim there is no chance. 

Well, you brought no evidence here, so I should be dismissive.

I misspoke, there is a chance, but it's miniscule.

 

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Here is the problem: A facelessman stealing a face does not make them that person. 

Stealing the face of Robb (for example) does not make them Robb. They still have their own identity (as shown in Arya's chapters). 

Aegon VI is someone most people believe is dead. YG claims his identity. 

This is different from a living person who is known and active in the world. Saying Jeyne and Sweetrobin are the same person is impossible because they are two separate characters in separate parts of the world. 

Here let me explain it like this: Lets say there are two people. person a and person b 

Person a has never been seen before, person b has. In this equation (granting that said person fits the description) person b can claim person a's identity. 

Now if person a and b are neighbor, you cannot claim they are the same person because they are two different people. 

The comparison doesn't work.

Robb would still be dead, stealing his face does not make the alchemist Robb. 

An identity, and a person are two different things. 

Saying you are Rhaegar and Elia's son, a person who has been believed dead, is different from saying you are this well known person who other people know of.  

I really don't know how else I can phrase this. 

As I explained in my parallel, putting on a face gives you some of that person's memories, adding Robb's telepathic skills, he 'warged' Jaqen.

I understand the concept tho, I was just pointing out how easy is to draw parallels when you invent backstory.

On the other hand, I could have borrowed a page from your book, claim that Robb is a fake and that Jaqen is the true Robb.

 

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Ok, you see, this helps. 

YG and 'Jaqen' (false name) are two different people (correct). 

Both of them could claim the identity of Aegon (for example) because Aegon VI is unknown. 

Do you see the difference between YG claiming to be Aegon VI and YG claiming to be Loras Tyrell? 

Those are two active people, and it cannot be true. 

That is the difference we are dealing with when saying something "cannot be true".

This does nothing in proving Jaqen and Aegon are the same, and YG or Jaqen could be Loras Tyrell, I just need to copy you and claim Loras is a Fake.

 

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Has anyone met him before? 

If the answer is no, then he is an identity someone can claim. 

He is not an active character.  

People would debate based on similarities, timeline, etc. 

But you can see the comparison with things like Loras and the Alchemist (two separate agents) being the same person is not of the same discussion length. 

Many people have met the absolutely real Aegon, some still living likely, and many more have met YG.

There's no reason to believe Aegon is alive if he isn't YG.

 

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He is, in ACOK. The word regal is used. 

There's this wonderful tool called "A Search Of Ice And Fire" which allows you to search words in the text. I did so. Your statement is a lie.

 

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(breath). 

Ok. 

Tywin is a person, like George Bush. 

Jaqen is a person, like Jackie Chan. 

These two people cannot be the same person. 

NOT because it is unlikely, but because it is a logical fallacy.  

I really hope you are being honest with this line of discussion.

I'm not claiming they are the same person, I'm saying that many persons are young and beautiful (I gave you a list), it doesn't mean they are related. Same with Jeyne Poole and Sweetrobin, them having similar tastes doesn't prove they are the same person, yet it proves you can have similar tastes as other person, like for example Jaqen and YG.

 

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Lyanna was betrothed to Robert when she came, she was betrothed to Robert when she left. The kidnapping happened a year later. 

But she didn't leave with him, and Arya wasn't betrothed to Gendry, so not a parallel.

 

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Why cut me off like that? I went on to detail how the lines fit together, now you won't engage. Did you see something you don't like? 

It's retrospective in that it becomes apparent after the conclusion is made, but it also reinforces the primary statement through textual evidence. 

Please, I would like to know your opinion, and what you think. I wouldn't have written about it otherwise. 

I said it many times over, there's no 'fit' in the timeline because you don't have a timeline on either character, all you know about Aegon is that he was born in 281 and was either killed or taken out of king's landing in 283, between 283 and 300 anything could have happened to him, he could be in Asshai, north of The Wall, or in Sothorios. You know nothing of Jaqen H'gar prior to 299, so both backstories could fit any number of characters because they are blank.

I 'cut you off' because I was gonna reply further down in the comment, unlike you who didn't reply to many of my points.

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh god not this again. 

Lets forget about what I believe for a second: 

Jaqen could be Aegon. 

He could also not be. 

Jaqen CAN NOT be Robb. 

Do. You. See. The. Difference. 

Read the original message again, you see it's as likley as what you claim, and it fits better with the parallel

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  • "He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten,

18, Robb's would be age

yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands.

His head got cut off and sent to Casterly Rock, the pink is the wound where it healed.

Twice had he believed himself ready.

He had to be the lord of Winterfell, then the KITN

The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens.

Vaellyn sounds like Baelish and ends in llyn, this brings to min Littlefinger and Illyn Payne, two men responsable for the death of Robb's father.

Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name.

The bitterness of loosing Ned, his siblings, etc

It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." 

The low voice of Roose Bolton being deadlier than the command of Joffrey, who killed his father by word

 

Some other evidence:

Robb used to play that he was the young dragon, and in fact he was later named the young wolf, so that's what the "golden dragon" pate is "chasing" represents.

The parallel to Aragorn works, as Robb is also a king

Pate died for a girl, same as Robb, and they both died while being really close to fulfilling their plans.

Jaqen's hair: red for Cat, white for Ned

 

What does this mean?

Jaqen had a plan involving Robb's face, so he traveled to the Westerlands and recovered his head, then he put on the face and memories came flowing back (like it happens to Arya, but augmented because of Robb's telepathic abilities), then Jaqen and Robb become one person, and this person has a plan to take his kingdom back, he goes to the Citadel and studies on magic, which makes an impression on the Archmaester of the occult, now he's got a glass candle and he can organice his family members to help retake his kingdom, he will send visions to Arya so she goes back west and starst killing his enemies, and he's sending visions to LSH so she kills all the Freys, he's also sending visions to Jon and Melissandre so the Boltons are terminated, and finally, with his powers incremented by the glass candle, he's warging Nymeria's entire pack.

 

 

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Because of his role in the story, and the combination with Ilyrio's chest. 

The ginger is important otherwise it wouldn't be brought up as regards to the baby swap. It's also not a common factor among different characters. 

Again, GRRM does not agree with this, as he has said that if he only wrote the important things to the story, it would be a cliff notes version of the story. Do you think every food item mentioned is important?
Also, it's only mentioned once that YG likes them and Jaqen barely smells of ginger once, it's not something that's given importance.

 

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But you see, when you have a character with the proper age, physical description, and geographic disposition (he came over to westeros from Braavos) you need to consider the possibility. 

We don't know Jaqen's age, for the hundredth time. But hey, keep ignoring it.

The only thing in which he matched physically is that he's described as beautiful, an many characters are throughout the story.

His hair doesn't match, as it's half red (no reason to have half read hair) and half white (Rhaegar's was silver) but hey, keep ignoring this too.

The geographic disposition makes no sense, we have no reason to believe Aegon was in Braavos.

 

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Lots of people can't be Aegon just from situation circumstance, including Jason Mallister. 

The features together are what make up the whole. 

Yes, but your 'features together' are bonkers.

Also, why ignore the fact that you "chiseled" comment was a lie?

 

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That is your belief, but I have already explained my reasoning. 

Well your reasoning makes no sense, gramatically.

 

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It means something, or else it wouldn't be translated. 

I don't know how you can compare Maggy the frog telling a specific prophecy with Lindsay Ellis calling Trump President in a different language. 

But I'll give you one thing, there is a reason Lindsay did it. Whether it was because of his relationship to Hispanic or whatever, the language being spoken does not just change for a specific word without reason. 

But I don't think I would have to explain this.  

sigh. 

Nope, she did it just cause.

Talking about someone in another language does not mean that person is tied to that language, I do it all the time, it means nothing

 

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In the context of my post, it does.

Because you make shit up

 

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I've already explained this. The white is for his father Rhaegar, the red is for Elia Martell (house Martell's sigil is the sun). 

Young in this case puts us in the right range. 

The Lorathi accent is faked. 

So, he faked his hair, he faked his accent, yet he didn't fake his face? that makes absolutely 0 sense.

He's in the right age range, maybe, but you can't say the ages fit, after all, Young Griff is also young.

 

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In fact it breaks when Arya accidently accuses him of being a king. This happens under the heart tree. 

Arya doesn't accuse him of being a king, learn to read.

 

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We can if we look at the timeline of events inside and out of westeros. 

(When Aegon was born, who took him (Varys), where he was sent, when he came back, etc.).

But we don't know any of that, we don't even know if Varys took him, because you are not talking about YG, so there's no timeline. We don't know who took him, we don't know if someone took him, we don't know if or when he came back, impossible to compare.

 

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Interestingly it is pretty common to assume the Alchemist has the dragon egg among the fanbase. 

Great, it's still no evidence.

 

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Aegon himself is an identity at this point (until the truth is revealed). His goal is whatever person is claiming to be him (or nothing if he is dead). 

Great, so no goals can be matched, you admit it.

 

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Looking to crack a dragon egg (which would prove his legitimacy) is certainly in lines with things a character believing to be the dragon heir would do (In fact Dany did do this).

Is still no proof, many Targaryens never tried such a thing, so we don;t know his goals, nor Jaqen's

 

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Going off of this we also don't know Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. 

No, we don't

 

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Things are interpreted. That is why even most people believe the Alchemist is looking to crack a dragon egg, even if they have no clue who the alchemist is. 

It goes back to the keys, the locked away book, and the contract to kill Balon. 

Great, but that's all that it is, I for one think he wanted access to a glass candle, and he read the book just to impress Marwin and get access to it. 

 

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Sure: You're not suppose to look into the eyes of someone you're about to kill. 

Why? is this another thing you made up?

 

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You're also (from what we know), not suppose to break into the citadel and steal an item (of course there could be exceptions but we have not been told of any yet).

We have never heard of such a rule.

 

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If they didn't it would make his actions even more covert/breaking the rules.

but we don't know he did it

 

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Lets look at the context: 

1. We know Jaqen is the alchemist. 

2. We know Jaqen is a facelessman  

3. We know the kindly man is some sort of mentor in the house of black and white 

4. We know the alchemist is about to kill Pate and steal his identity. 

5. We are told of a kindly old mentor who sighs. 

Now you can claim that is not who Ebrose is meant to represent, but that doesn't follow along with it could be anyone who sighs.

sigh

Your abilities to miss the point would impress me if I hadn't already seen so many examples of you doing precisely that.

I never said anyone who sighs is Ebrose, I said conecting two characters because both of them sigh is ridiculous because a lot of characters sigh.

 

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Yes they are, in ACOK

Again, A Search Of Ice And Fire, great tool to prove someone is lying.

 

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It's both, and its about Lyanna centrally (its from Arya's perspective). 

Her two lovers are Robert and Rhaegar, not Holwand, Brandon, or anyone else. 

And its not a tourney same way as the couples are not romantically engage. The pledge is a pledge to kill three people. This is again a twisted retelling. 

Great, so not only you make up a scene to fit the parallel, but it also parallels another scene and it's twisted, so it fits.

Except you can't claim the parallel is twisted because it's different, it's different because it isn't a parallel.

We know of no pledge in the first scene.

There is no parallel, as we don't have enough elements for there to be.

 

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First, Olyvar is not a book character. 

Sure he is

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Olyvar_Frey

 

 

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Second we are falling back into that trap I mentioned above. 

The Alchemist could be Rhaegar and Elia's son. 

He cannot be active characters totally separate from himself like Jon, Robb, or Loras. 

I don't know how else to say this. 

I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying that matching in one small way does not make him the same character, as an example, all the characters I mentioned match in the same way, yet they are obviously not the same character

 

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This is what I am talking about, thank you. 

So you see this is a perfect demonstration. Pretty Merris is an active character. 

It is possible for her to be Ashara (an unknown), but it is impossible for her to be Brienne. 

I hope we are on the same page now. 

Anyways that's a fine theory, but I think from most of what I read Pretty Merris, if anyone, is Wenda the white fawn. Not Ashara. 

Nope, she's Ashara, it is known.

 

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There is of course more, and specifically it is because his character fits the sequence of events. Much of the other evidence is in posts like this one.

I added to Pate's story, to give more context. I did so here as well, but in the previous post you cut it off. 

I still don't know why.

Great, but Aegon's backstory is made up by you, so it can't be counted as evidence, so let's count agains your evidence:

 

Illyrio mentions once that YG likes candied ginger, Jaqen once smells like ginger.

This is not a strong connection, as two characters eating the same food does not mean they are the same, furthermore, YG likes candied ginger, and you claim he isn't Aegon, so we don't actually know how Aegon feels about ginger.

Areo Hotah, Tyrion and Dany eat ginger as well, is any of them secretly Aegon?

 

The Appearance

it doesn't match, while both men are described as beautiful that's about it. Rhaegar's hair is silver, while Jaqen's is white and red. Furthermore Jaqen has the ability to change his face, and this is almost certainly not his face, as he is hiding/on a mission and he wouldn't walk around with just his face, he went to all the trouble of facking an accent, making up a backstory, choosing a different name and changing the die in his hair but he doesn't change his face? It makes no sense.

 

The parallel

There aren't enough elements to establish a parallel

 

matching backstory

we don't know either of their backstories, so we can't say they match

 

After your only four points proved to be bogus, we can say there's no evidence to point that Jaqen and Aegon are the same guy.

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22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

But how did he get to do that? did it just cross his mind and it happened to work?

The northmen have told tales of wildlings consorting with Others for a long time, and we know the religion of the Old Gods used to involve human sacrifice. I doubt Craster made it up himself.

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also, maybe negotiation was the incorrect word, but they do have a deal, Craster gives them his sons and they mostly leave him alone

Read that link I provided, they don't really have a "deal". It's one of those "pray I don't alter it any further" situations where the Others can change the "terms" whenever they please.

9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The chances that they married under the heart tree so the son is legitimate

There's no evidence for that.

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The first two are paired together, and Gendry wants Arya to stay away from the other man.

Bu Arya eventual chooses him over Gendry

No, Arya stays with Gendry until the Brotherhood try to bring her further from her family. Jaquen is completely out of the picture by that point, and she never sees him again.

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It was between the old gods, not the sevens.

The First Men have been ruled by followers of the Seven for centuries, they don't disregard those people's marriages as not legally binding.

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Jaqen is a false name, he is really Aegon VI.

We can assume the first half of that sentence is true based on his profession, there is no evidence for the latter.

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Aegon VI (the Valonqar)

Nobody has ever referred to him that way.

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he men (like Rorge/Biter) fear and respect him

Those are the worst scum in the Black Cells, who fear Jaqen because he's a scary murderer. Rhaegar was a Prince who performed well in tourneys and was respected by his fellow noblemen. We don't hear about him scaring lowborn criminals.

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Lyanna also leaves Harrenhall with Robert

I don't think she was with Robert when she left.

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The egg he won from fulfilling the contract).

Payment goes to the House of Black & White, not their individual agents (who aren't supposed to have individual identities).

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He did as the alchemist, and he does looking to steal from the citadel (not the FM's MO).

When was it said they have a rule against that?

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Coming to westeros as himself with his own face is the whole point

WHY!? What person that saw that face needed to see it?

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She had her baby swapped, the one that died in Aegon's place. She was Elia's champion, and here is her son

How would she recognize a 13 year old as being an infant swapped for hers?

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Also we have no reason to suspect The Old Gods are okay with polygamy.

Prior to the Andal invasion, there are some stories of kings having multiple wives. Similarly, in the Old Testament there is polygamy & lots of concubines, but since the Roman conquest Jews have been monagamous.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Likely illegal, etc. ignores all the facts that Rhaegar is a Targaryen, the conqueror had two wives.

Its like saying incestual marriages are not allowed, being a king, and a Targaryen, does not make one bound to some strict constitution.

No Targaryen has been polygamous since Maegor, regarded as one of the worst kings in history. Aegon I was already double-married before he came to Westeros and converted to the Faith, so his existing marriages could be "grandfathered" in. Maegor never had any children that the Faithful would have to recognize as legitimate. This is in contrast to incest, which they continued to practice and the Faith explicitly made an exception for (after Maegor).

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The ginger is important otherwise it wouldn't be brought up

No, GRRM really likes adding details about food.

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The white is for his father Rhaegar, the red is for Elia Martell (house Martell's sigil is the sun).

House Targaryen's sigil isn't white.

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Interestingly it is pretty common to assume the Alchemist has the dragon egg among the fanbase.

I hadn't heard that prior to you. I had heard that the Faceless Men as a whole might have one, but not the Alchemist specifically.

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Looking to crack a dragon egg (which would prove his legitimacy) is certainly in lines with things a character believing to be the dragon heir would do (In fact Dany did do this).

Dany wasn't trying to prove her legitimacy, which wasn't in doubt in the first place. She was making a human sacrifice out of someone she regards as having horribly betrayed her, and she seems to have intuited that there was magic in this sacrifice.

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You're not suppose to look into the eyes of someone you're about to kill.

Where was that said?

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You're also (from what we know), not suppose to break into the citadel and steal an item

I don't recall that being a rule among the FM either. Maybe that item is necessary for the assassination he's supposed to be carrying out!

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8 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The northmen have told tales of wildlings consorting with Others for a long time, and we know the religion of the Old Gods used to involve human sacrifice. I doubt Craster made it up himself.

Read that link I provided, they don't really have a "deal". It's one of those "pray I don't alter it any further" situations where the Others can change the "terms" whenever they please.

Yeah, I read it, but it still seems like a weird situation, what did Craster do? Leave a baby in the snow hoping they wouldn't attack him? or did the Others went to kill him and he gave them a baby so they let him go? I think some sort of a deal has been made some how, I could be wrong but I think there must have been some instance in which both parties said "okey, we do this". By that I don't mean they actually talked, but Craster leaving a baby for them is a message of sorts.

Also, I don't think the power in that relationship is as one sided as the link states, Craster is for the most part giving the Others things he doesn't want, the Others are only getting boys and the babies they are taking are genetically bankrupt.

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19 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Who lived three hundred years ago and married before converting into The Faith 

I don't know what else to say here. Did they join together under the heart tree, was it consensual, did they love each other? 

These have been questions since the first book. If you are saying they never bonded in matrimony of some kind, then perhaps you should go back and think this true. 

They married in the show, and people have speculated about this for some 24 years. 

If you're making an exception when dealing with me, I don't know what to say. If you're trying to make me look like an idiot, then that is your problem. 

I'm making a connection based on what I read, but going down this path doesn't help anyone.  

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The Faith has protested many Targaryen betrothals, successfully ending them. 

How is this relevant. I beg of you to tell me. 

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I agree, but I didn't say that, I said we have no evidence of it happening, so we can't use it to establish a parallel because we aren't sure it did. Things can't parallel things that might have happened, they can only parallel things that happened. 

We can make observations based on clues. We can speak about conclusions and think the series through. 

For some reason yourself as well as others wish to argue that without conformation there is no point trying to figure out what happened.  

Do you wish for me to give you an example? 

Ok: When I look at Harrenhall, where do we know that name from? Harren the black? 

From what I read we were constantly told about the tourney, and lyanna, and rhaegar. That is what most people associate it with. 

Then we have Arya, the first character to appear their. She is unlike her siblings. She has brown hair, grey eyes, wild hair, and is nicknamed horseface Arya. 

You can say that is not evidence for anything, but I can because I am discussing this topic.  

Is it insane, or uncalled for? If that is path you want to go down, then be my guess. But don't ridicule or insult me.  

Is it insane when I compare Gendry to Robert, or how he is paired (not romantically, these people are kids) together with Arya on arrival to Harrenhall. 

Is it insane to notice the distaste one man has for the other? Or that a new comer, with white hair (half dyed red for Elia as I've said before) comes before her, and they even go so far as having a scene where one pledges to another under the heart tree? Or that both Rhaegar and his counterpart gift the girl, one with a coin, the other with a crown. 

Am I insane, or are you gaslighting me when you see Tywin as a parallel to this relationship or that any and everyone else could apply? 

Or when you say lord hunter, and Jon Arryn, and Brandon Stark should be there as well when the story has been about one girl and her two lovers. 

You have a right to disagree with me, but I am surprised to see you show me none of the respect you do others on this form. I don't demand it, if I say something stupid then I should be called out on it. Saying their is no evidence because anyone could fit a certain description is you being dishonest.  

 

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Well, you brought no evidence here, so I should be dismissive. 

What does this mean? I expand upon the character's imagery and motivations. What is it that you want for it to be worth discussing? 

But going down a tirade on how anyone could be anyone is something I doubt you speak of towards other people. Saying things like the alchemist could be Robb or Loras shows me that you are trying to ridicule the subject rather than engage it. 

You also just compared the word choice of "Valonqar" over "little brother" (something the book emphasizes, even going so far as changing "the" to "yours" in Cersei's thought process) to some youtuber called trump El Presidente. 

How are you being serious with me, unless you think this is a hysterical joke that you're playing? 

 

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As I explained in my parallel, putting on a face gives you some of that person's memories, adding Robb's telepathic skills, he 'warged' Jaqen.

I understand the concept tho, I was just pointing out how easy is to draw parallels when you invent backstory.

On the other hand, I could have borrowed a page from your book, claim that Robb is a fake and that Jaqen is the true Robb. 

No, you really can't. 

We have ample evidence that the alchemist is the man from Harrenhall. We also have ample evidence that he is looking for a book on dragons, and that he has an egg for himself. 

In fact a significant part of the fandom already debate why he has an egg, or what he wants to do with it. 

Yet you single me out for ridicule because for some reason I am a special type of idiot in your mind who makes stuff up. 

In Tyrion's chapter in the next book he deliberately speaks about a book on dragons locked away in the citadel. 

Is that more "gratuity" on GRRM's part, would he tell me to f*** off? 

Or was that just your way to tell me to do so but you didn't want to say it yourself?

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This does nothing in proving Jaqen and Aegon are the same, and YG or Jaqen could be Loras Tyrell, I just need to copy you and claim Loras is a Fake. 

If Loras is a fake than anyone could be a fake. 

That is the logic you are using. But you know its insane, you just want to attack me for some bizzare reason by claiming a false comparison. 

Saying someone is Aegon VI (or Ashara Dayne for that matter) is far away from saying anyone could be anyone. 

Knowing who the quantities of which we speak (the Alchemist) does change the discussion. But you keep bringing up these false parallels to make what I say sound irrelevant or insane. 

You don't have to agree with me, but you also don't have to be dishonest. And I trust you're smart enough to figure out why such comparisons don't work.  

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Many people have met the absolutely real Aegon, some still living likely, and many more have met YG. 

Many people have met Ashara Dayne, many people have met Wenda the white fawn. 

But people speculate on their true identity. No one does so for two characters active at the same time. 

Like Sweetrobin and Jeyne Poole. 

That was an actual example you gave to try and argue against me discussing someone's true identity. 

Do you know how insulting that is to me? Or are you just trying to be mean spirited because you don't like what I say?

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There's no reason to believe Aegon is alive if he isn't YG. 

Sure there is. When their is ample discussion of a baby swap, but one person doesn't fit the description, questions arise. 

Also we have every reason to believe YG was a late addition, and even if not, GRRM probably didn't have a good idea who this character was early one.  

Talking about the baby swap comparison's with Jon, the prophecy of Aegon VI at the house of the undying, the repeated motif of a baby's head being unrecognizable. 

These are common literary devices. Could they be a red herring? Of course, but there were reasons to believe Aegon was alive before YG, and there would still be had he not come onto the series.

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There's this wonderful tool called "A Search Of Ice And Fire" which allows you to search words in the text. I did so. Your statement is a lie. 

A lie is saying something when you know its not true. 

Rather than just say "you're wrong", you accuse me of being a liar. 

I apologize however.  

I just realized ACOK has an online PDF so I don't need the book: https://www.nothuman.net/images/files/discussion/2/bc2d525a2ac485f688a1f2dcb7740432.pdf 

"But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration." 

Shining white is an allusion to silver. But there is more in that chapter as well, his mannerism is not fit for a ragged peasant. 

There is a discussion about the prince and the pauper of which the boy in rags still had an aristocratic manner. He cleans himself (frequently), he is respectful with his food, he smiles and charms others. There was more about a chiseled face and aristocratic features when I was discussing this elsewhere, but apparently its not in the books. 

So again I apologize. 

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I'm not claiming they are the same person, I'm saying that many persons are young and beautiful (I gave you a list), it doesn't mean they are related. Same with Jeyne Poole and Sweetrobin, them having similar tastes doesn't prove they are the same person, yet it proves you can have similar tastes as other person, like for example Jaqen and YG. 

Again with this comparison. 

Many people are many things, many people are kind, and soft, and cruel, and regal, and everything in between. That doesn't mean anything. 

We are discussing a specific character with specific parallels. 

Disagree all you want, but stop this tangent about Tywin or Robb being the alchemist, or Jeyne and Sweetrobin liking the same things. 

And besides, from what I remember Robert Arryn pretends to like whatever Sansa likes. 

One of these characters doesn't need to pretend to like something for they are not (at this point) claiming their identity. It happens naturally because that is who they are. 

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But she didn't leave with him, and Arya wasn't betrothed to Gendry, so not a parallel. 

Their kids, they also don't have a tourney. Its the role the characters play in relationship to each other. 

But if you can't see what I mean, then I don't have much else to say. 

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I said it many times over, there's no 'fit' in the timeline because you don't have a timeline on either character, all you know about Aegon is that he was born in 281 and was either killed or taken out of king's landing in 283, between 283 and 300 anything could have happened to him, he could be in Asshai, north of The Wall, or in Sothorios. You know nothing of Jaqen H'gar prior to 299, so both backstories could fit any number of characters because they are blank. 

We have to look at where he would be. Not Asshai, or north of the wall, but in Essos, where the baby swap happened. 

If he moved to either of these places, then that would be years off and the character would need to be followed from one place to the other. 

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I 'cut you off' because I was gonna reply further down in the comment, unlike you who didn't reply to many of my points. 

What exactly? And you didn't respond.

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Read the original message again, you see it's as likley as what you claim, and it fits better with the parallel 

No its not, because Robb is irrelevant to this chapter. 

Saying he stole his face means he could steal anyone's face. (who is dead) 

I had thought the faceless men take from who they kill, but you expand that to mean anyone. 

Now the alchemist, rather than being a specific character introduced to us from Harrenhall, is whoever and whatever we want him to be. 

That is, again, a false equivalency. I am discussing a specific character who went from the blackcells in KL, to the citadel in Oldtown over the course of three novels. 

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Again, GRRM does not agree with this, as he has said that if he only wrote the important things to the story, it would be a cliff notes version of the story. Do you think every food item mentioned is important?
Also, it's only mentioned once that YG likes them and Jaqen barely smells of ginger once, it's not something that's given importance. 

He writes plenty about food, he also has plenty of symbolism, especially clues for people to pick up. 

Things matter, and even more things are hidden in sight so that people don't unravel a mystery too early. 

Or is this going to be another El Presidente/Valonqar thing. 

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We don't know Jaqen's age, for the hundredth time. But hey, keep ignoring it. 

I've already discussed how Pate has parallel's to Jaqen and Rhaegar. 

The dragon, wanting the girl (fifteen year old maid), and most importantly, his identity is taken by the man from harrenhall (not Robb Stark). 

We are also introduced to an age  (15+3=18) which fits Arya's description. The man was older than her, but not enough that she would compare him to a paternal figure (like her father who was in his 30s). 

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The only thing in which he matched physically is that he's described as beautiful, an many characters are throughout the story. 

Again, words have specific meanings when associated with specific people. 

Sansa is beautiful, that doesn't mean anything as regards to Rhaegar or his children. 

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His hair doesn't match, as it's half red (no reason to have half read hair) and half white (Rhaegar's was silver) but hey, keep ignoring this too. 

I have, but you are ignoring it. 

He dyed (yes, people dye their hair, it is not naturally two colors) red for his mother Elia (House Martell's sigil is the sun, like fire, like the red god). 

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Also, why ignore the fact that you "chiseled" comment was a lie? 

Again with calling me a liar. How does this promote a healthy discussion?

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Well your reasoning makes no sense, gramatically.

 

sigh. 

Nope, she did it just cause.

Talking about someone in another language does not mean that person is tied to that language, I do it all the time, it means nothing 

Again you specifically say using the word Valonqar instead of little brother doesn't mean something. 

Many people, including myself disagree. But you say it doesn't mean anything (in a book where a prophecy is carefully worded) because you switch languages all the time. 

I can't begin to tell you how condescending and dishonest you're being. 

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Because you make shit up 

Get a grip

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So, he faked his hair, he faked his accent, yet he didn't fake his face? that makes absolutely 0 sense.

 

"Jaqen is dead, as dead as Arry". 

Arya also fakes her identity. He came to westeros to reclaim his own, why would he change his face for that. 

Much like the Sphinx (who also bathes and grabs the attention of women) or Hugor Hill (Tyrion) people in the series come up with fake identities.  

"“Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya.” 

He is not embodying some false face, as he would take on their entire identity if he did. He came to Westeros to reclaim his title, changing names just helps keep people hidden in plain sight. 

Tyrion wants casterly rock, but he changes his name for a time to help himself achieve that goal. 

 

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Arya doesn't accuse him of being a king, learn to read. 

Again with the casual insults. 

This is how the book writes the scene:  

He has sworn. “Even if I named the king . . .” “Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.” He knelt beside her, so they were faceto-face, “A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?”

Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl . . . she makes a jest.” 

It's a peculiar wording, that was also changed in the show. 

But it plays to the same affect. 

He says a girl would weep and lose a friend, but that is after this scene. 

 

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But we don't know any of that, we don't even know if Varys took him, because you are not talking about YG, so there's no timeline. We don't know who took him, we don't know if someone took him, we don't know if or when he came back, impossible to compare. 

YG claims to be Aegon. Anyone who does must follow a similar timeline following a baby swap. 

Especially given Ilyrio's chest. 

Oh wait, are you going to say that is gratuity as well? 

Are you going to tell me GRRM wants me to F**** off for discussing something, or does that apply to everyone else who makes these discussions?

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Why? is this another thing you made up?

When Arya is sent to kill the money lender, she is told not to show her face or she would fail.

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We have never heard of such a rule.

They do not steal items. However if he meant to kill someone it could be possible, but overall the concept of breaking into the citadel to steal a valuable item does not fit what the kindly man established was a religious organization with no ulterior motives. 

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sigh

Your abilities to miss the point would impress me if I hadn't already seen so many examples of you doing precisely that.

I never said anyone who sighs is Ebrose, I said conecting two characters because both of them sigh is ridiculous because a lot of characters sigh. 

And yet you are doing just that right here. 

You have continued to bring up the point that many characters do many things, which is to be honest irrelevant and useless. 

We are discussing a chapter centered around an assassination by a faceless man. 

The text discussing a kindly old mentor who sighs applies to the context of the characters being introduced. 

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Again, A Search Of Ice And Fire, great tool to prove someone is lying. 

Again with calling me a liar. 

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So you brought up a minor character in a discussion about a specific character to insinuate that anyone could be involved. 

Was his face stolen as well, same as Robb? 

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I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying that matching in one small way does not make him the same character, as an example, all the characters I mentioned match in the same way, yet they are obviously not the same character 

They are not the same characters because they are not the same characters. 

There is a fundamental difference between what we speak.  

Saying something like Jeyne likes lemon cakes as does Sweetrobin (which I don't think is true besides) does not apply to discussing a mystery character hidden from view being someone else introduced to us. 

For example, I'm sure other people like ginger, but I'm sure those other people are not secretly Aegon VI. 

We have to look at who the subject matter is (at Harrenhall or elsewhere). 

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Nope, she's Ashara, it is known. 

That's fine. You see I won't insult you for your opinion. 

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Great, but Aegon's backstory is made up by you, so it can't be counted as evidence, so let's count agains your evidence: 

Pate's story cannot, because it has to do with alchemist, and any and all forms of symbolism I point out should be discussed.

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Illyrio mentions once that YG likes candied ginger, Jaqen once smells like ginger.

This is not a strong connection, as two characters eating the same food does not mean they are the same, furthermore, YG likes candied ginger, and you claim he isn't Aegon, so we don't actually know how Aegon feels about ginger.

Areo Hotah, Tyrion and Dany eat ginger as well, is any of them secretly Aegon? 

Of course not, but you can see that quiet clearly. 

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After your only four points proved to be bogus, we can say there's no evidence to point that Jaqen and Aegon are the same guy.

Evidence does not have to be confirmed to be discussed or analyzed.  If so most nothing could be discussed on this site. 

Looking at motivations (dragons), character movement, as well as their role in the plot can help figure out many truths. 

Just like the mysterious newcomer in Harrenhall. I have expressed above why I believe what I believe, that doesn't equate to confirmation of anything. 

Edited by butterweedstrover

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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I don't know what else to say here. Did they join together under the heart tree

we don't know

 

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, was it consensual,

we don't know

 

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did they love each other? 

we don't know

 

You see, what I'm saying is not that it definitely didn't happen, is that we don't know if it did, you can't make a parallel with an assumption, parallels are text to text, or text to subtext, or subtext to subtext. But they can never be text to stuff that maybe happened but it's nowhere near the text or the subtext.

 

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These have been questions since the first book. If you are saying they never bonded in matrimony of some kind, then perhaps you should go back and think this true. 

They have been questions for some people, some, like myself, think that it didn't happened, as Rhaegar was already married, making a seccond marriage illegal and impossible.

 

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They married in the show,

In the show he got an annulment from Ellia, despite having two children an annulments only being granted to unconsummated marriages, and he did it in secret, despite needing the High Septon to make an annulment. In the show Rhaegar named both his sons Aegon. Like GRRM says, the show is the show and the books are the books.

 

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and people have speculated about this for some 24 years. 

People have speculated about Jaimie and Cersei being Targaryens for 24 years, that doesn't make it so.

 

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If you're making an exception when dealing with me, I don't know what to say. If you're trying to make me look like an idiot, then that is your problem. 

I'm making a connection based on what I read, but going down this path doesn't help anyone.  

I'm not, I truly believe Rhaegar and Lyanna never married, as it serves no purpose and it was illegal, there's also no evidence that points to them marrying.

 

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How is this relevant. I beg of you to tell me. 

You claimed that Targaryens can do what they want, I proved they can't.

 

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We can make observations based on clues. We can speak about conclusions and think the series through. 

For some reason yourself as well as others wish to argue that without conformation there is no point trying to figure out what happened.  

Nope, not at all, go ahead, try to figure it out, I do it as well. But don't use assumptions as hard proof, because they aren't.

Saying "if this happened this other thing might be a parallel" isn't proof of anything.

 

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Do you wish for me to give you an example? 

Ok: When I look at Harrenhall, where do we know that name from? Harren the black? 

From what I read we were constantly told about the tourney, and lyanna, and rhaegar. That is what most people associate it with. 

The we have Arya, the first character to appear their. She is unlike her siblings. She has brown hair, grey eyes, wild hair, and is nicknamed horseface Arya. 

You can say that is not evidence for anything, but I can because I am discussing this topic.  

Because it's not evidence for anything dude. Yes, Arya looks like Lyanna, and she's in Harrenhall, so what? You have only two elements, and that doesn't make a parallel, as I said over and over.

 

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Is it insane, or uncalled for? If that is path you want to go down, then be my guess. But don't ridicule or insult more.  

I'm sorry, you just really feel disingenuous saying the stuff you say and that prone's me to act like a dick, you also lied many times, which has the same effect, and you seem to purposely misunderstand me, for example when I say that many people fit the description of "young and beautiful" and you say "none of those people are Rhaegar" I know dude, that's not the point, the pint is that that's too vague of a description to prove anything.

But none of that is an excuse to act like a dick, and for that I'm sorry.

 

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Is it insane when I compare Gendry to Robert, or how he is paired (not romantically, these people are kids) together with Arya on arrival to Harrenhall. 

No, that's not insane.

 

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Is it insane to notice the distaste one man has for the other? Or that a new comer, with white hair (half dyed red for Elia as I've said before) comes before her, and they even go so far as having a scene where one pledges to another under the heart tree? Or that both Rhaegar and his counterpart gift the girl, one with a coin, the other with a crown. 

Yes. That is insane.

Two people having distaste for one another doesn't mean they are parallels. Robert had distaste for many people, so does Gendry.

It's also insane to say that Jaqen's hair is died in honor of Ellia, we've seen no one in the story died their hair to represent a Banner.

Jaqen pledges something to Arya in a heart tree, but we don't know of Rhaegar doing that ever with Lyanna.

Lastly, many men gift women with different things throughout the story, that doesn't create a parallel, and therefore means nothing. For example, Loras, a young, beautiful knight, gives the daughter of Lord Stark a rose and calls her queen of love and beauty during a tourney. He's even dressed as a blue rose. That's a way better parallel than the one you have. Does that mean that Mace took Aegon as a baby and raised him as his own son? No, it doesn't.

 

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Am I insane, or are you gaslighting me when you see Tywin as a parallel to this relationship or that any and everyone else could apply? 

I don't see him as a parallel, and I never said I did. I was trying to prove that, while the description of 'young and beautiful' fits both Aegon and Jaqen, it fits a whole bunch of characters, and therefore is not proof of anything.

 

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Or when you say lord hunter, and Jon Arryn, and Brandon Stark should be there as well when the story has been about one girl and her two lovers. 

You have a right to disagree with me, but I am surprised to see you show me none of the respect you do others on this form. I don't demand it, if I say something stupid then I should be called out on it. Saying their is no evidence because anyone could fit a certain description is you being dishonest.  

No, I'm being honest, fitting a really vague description is no evidence at all, specially since one of the characters can shapeshift.

If Jaqen being young and beautiful proves he's aegon, then jaimie being young and beautiful also proves it, or Loras, or Theon, or many more characters. It doesn't, because they aren't, and we both know that. In the same way, it proves nothing with Jaqen.

 

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What does this mean? I expand upon the character's imagery and motivations. What is it that you want for it to be worth discussing? 

Evidence, of any sorts, you have only four pieces of it, and none of them prove anything.

 

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But going down a tirade how anyone could be anyone is something I doubt you speak of towards other people. Saying things like the alchemist could be Robb or Loras shows mean you are trying to ridicule the subject rather than engage it. 

No, I'm not, I'm saying the description you claim Jaqen 'fits' many people fit aswell, and therefore is no proof of anything.

It would be like me trying to prove Brianne is a Lannister because she's blond, that's not enough, many people are blond.

 

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You also just compared the word choice of "Valonqar" over "little brother" (something the book emphasizes, even going so far as changing the to yours in Cersei's thought process) to some youtuber called trump El Presidente. 

Yes, because the word being in valiryan doesn't mean that the person is valiryan, that's nonsensical 

 

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How are you being serious with me, unless you think this is a hysterical joke that you're playing? 

No, you really can't. We have ample evidence that the alchemist is the man from Harrenhall.

Yes, but you have no evidence that the man from Harrenhall is Aegon, that's what I'm saying, you keep twisting my words over and over, purposely missing the point. You see, what I said is that Alchemist/Jaqen could have lived what I claimed in my Robb parallel and it would fit the backstory, the same way you did with your Aegon parallel, you know what? because I completely made that up, as you made up the Aegon backstory, or else prove me wrong, where did you get that backstory? what tangible evidence do you have that Aegon had those experiences.

 

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We also have ample evidence that he is looking for a book on dragons, and that he has an egg for himself. 

We don't have ample evidence for that, tho we have more evidence for that than for him being Aegon. If he was looking only for the dragon book, why did he stayed in The Citadel for the duration of an entire book? why not just take the book and leave? and the evidence for him having a dragon egg is weaker still, yeah, Euron threw a dragon egg to the sea, but why would he lie about that? he just confesed to kinslaying! also, we have no evidence that Jaqen was the man who killed Balon, there are plenty faceless men.

 

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In fact a significant part of the fandom already debate why he has an egg, or what he wants to do with it. 

That means nothing, a significant part of the fandom debates wether Jaimie and Cersei are Targaryens, it doesn't make them so.

 

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Yet you single me out for ridicule because for some reason I am a special type of idiot in your mind who makes stuff up. I

Well, you did make up the age limit for the HOBAW, and Jaqen's description as regal and chiseled.

 

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n Tyrion's chapter in the next book he deliberately speaks about a book about dragons locked away in the citadel. 

Is that more "gratuity" on GRRM's part, would he tell me to f*** off? 

Or was that just your way to tell me to do so but you didn't want to say it yourself?

I was just repeating what George said. I wasn't telling you that because you didn't complain about gratuitousness, I was using it to show that sometimes a candy is just a candy, and not a intricate web of symbolism that reveals a secret only you can see.

 

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If Loras is a fake than anyone could be a fake. 

If Aegon is both alive and not YG then we can claim anything, keep in mind, I'm doing the exact same thing you are:

Aegon was replaced for someone else as a baby

Loras was replaced for someone else as a baby

No difference.

We have no evidence that Aegon was both saved from The Mountain and replaced by YG.

 

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That is the logic you are using. But you know its insane, you just want to attack me for some bizzare reason by claiming a false comparison. 

Saying someone is Aegon VI (or Ashara Dayne for that matter) is far away from saying anyone could be anyone. 

Well, I say Loras is Aegon VI, there, I can do that.

 

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Know who the quantities of which we speak (the Alchemist) does change the discussion. But you keep bringing up this false parallels to make what I say irrelevant or insane. 

You don't have to agree with me, but you also don't have to be dishonest. And I trust you're smart enough to figure out why such comparisons don't work.  

I don't see the difference, because to me what you are saying is insane, you provided no proof.

 

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Many people have met Ashara Dayne, many people have met Wenda the white fawn. 

But people speculate on their true identity. No one does so for two characters active at the same time. 

Like Sweetrobin and Jeyne Poole. 

That was an actual example you gave to try and argue against me discussing someone's true identity. 

Do you know how insulting that is to me? Or are you just trying to be mean spirited because you don't like what I say?

No dude, are you actually not understanding what I say? I said it over and over. The point I was making with SR and Jeyne is that two characters liking the same food means nothing, and therefore, the ginger comparison is irrelevant.

 

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Sure there is. When their is ample discussion of a baby swap, but one person doesn't fit the description, questions arise. 

Yes, but every bit of evidence for a baby swap is tied to YG, him being a fake likely means there was no baby swap, as there is no evidence for one except for his existence, do you understand?

 

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Also we have every reason to believe YG was a late addition, and even if not, GRRM probably didn't have a good idea who this character was early one.  

Talking about the baby swap comparison's with Jon, the prophecy of Aegon VI at the house of the undying, the repeated motif of a baby's head being unrecognizable. 

These are common literary devices. Could they be a red herring? Of course, but there were reasons to believe Aegon was alive before YG, and there would still be had he not come onto the seires.

that's just guessing, nothing else.

 

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A lie is saying something when you know its not true. 

Rather than just say "you're wrong", you accuse me of being a liar. 

I apologize however.  

I just realized ACOK has an online PDF so I don't need the book: https://www.nothuman.net/images/files/discussion/2/bc2d525a2ac485f688a1f2dcb7740432.pdf 

"But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration." 

Shining white is an allusion to silver. But there is more in that chapter as well, his mannerism is not fit for a ragged peasant. 

There is a discussion about the prince and the pauper of which the boy in rags still had an aristocratic manner. He cleans himself (frequently), he is respectful with his food, he smiles and charms others. There was more about a chiseled face and aristocratic when I was discussing this elsewhere, but apparently its not in the books. 

So again I apologize. 

You seem to make many 'mistakes' 

There are many characters that act proper without being kings or even noble, and people are train to know such things in the house of black and white, it proves nothing because he's not a 'ragged peassant' his an elite assassin

 

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Again with this comparison. 

Many people are many things, many people are kind, and soft, and cruel, and regal, and everything in between. That doesn't mean anything. 

We are discussing a specific character with specific parallels. 

Disagree all you want, but stop this tangent about Tywin or Robb being the alchemist, or Jeyne and Sweetrobin liking the same things. 

And besides, from what I remember Robert Arryn pretends to like whatever Sansa likes. 

One of these characters doesn't need to pretend to like something for they are not (at this point) claiming their identity. It happens naturally because that is who they are. 

you keep making circular arguments, you claim that the ginger thing is relevant because they are the same character, yet you claim they are the same character because of the ginger thing, it's a logical fallacy. 

 

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Their kids, they also don't have a tourney. Its the role the characters play in relationship to each other. 

But if you can't see what I mean, then I don't have much else to say. 

Because there isn't a parallel.

There is a subversion of a parallel, relation ship wise, with Arya and Gendry. But Jaqen is no more part of it than Hot Pie or Weasel.

 

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We have to look at where he would be. Not Asshai, or north of the wall, but in Essos, where the baby swap happened. 

If he moved from either of these places, then that would be years off. 

If there was a baby swap it happened in Westeros, not in Essos. Asshai is in Essos. We don't know if the baby swap happened. If Aegon isn't YG and is alive we know nothing of his life after the sack of King's Landind, can we agree on this? 

 

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What exactly? And you didn't respond

Honestly? I don't remember what you're talking about

 

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No its not, because Robb is irrelevant to this chapter.

As is Aegon.

See? you are being disingenuous, you are trying to prove that Jaqen=Aegon, so you establish a made up parallel in that chapter, I tell you "that parallel can fit anyone, just watch" and I use the example of Robb, then you say "Robb is irrelevant to this chapter". The thing is, that if Jaqen isn't Aegon, so is Aegon, so it's the same situation. If you can say "well, Jaqen is Aegon, so he's relevant to the chapter" that is, yet again, a circular argument and also it means I can say Robb is relevant to the chapter because he is Jaqen.

I'm not sure if you understand what a circular argument is, it's an argument that proves itself right and cannot be argued with, for example, you say: 

Aegon is relevant to AFFC's prologue (because) he's Jaqen (because) the backstory fits (because) Aegon is relevant to AFFC's prologue. 

And it goes like that forever.

 

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Saying he stole his face means he could steal anyone's face. 

I had thought the faceless men take from who they kill, but you expand that to mean anyone. 

Now the alchemist, rather than being a specific character introduced to us from Harrenhall, is not whoever and whatever we want him to be. 

That is, again, a false equivalency. I am discussing a specific character who went from the blackcells in KL, to the citadel in Oldtown over the course of three novels. 

yes, and I am discussing the same character, only I'm arguing he's also Robb instead of saying he's also Aegon.

 

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He writes plenty about food, he also has plenty of symbolism, especially clues for people to pick up. 

Things matter, and even more things are hidden in sight so that people don't unravel a mystery too early. 

Or is this going to be another El Presidente/Valonqar thing. 

Sure, I provided the quotes, so please tell me, what part of that is symbolism? One smells like ginger once, the other is said once to enjoy gingered candy

 

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ve already discussed how Pate has parallel's to Jaqen and Rhaegar. 

The dragon, wanting the girl (fifteen year old maid), and most importantly, his identity is taken by the man from harrenhall (not Robb Stark). 

Dude, are you sure what you are arguing? I said it over and over, I was claiming that Jaqen/Alchemist and Robb are the same person, so I would be talking about the same character.

Stop. Being, Disingenuous.

Stop. Twisting. My arguments.

 

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We are also introduced to an age  (15+3=18) which fits Arya's description. The man was older than her, but not enough that she would compare him to a paternal figure (like her father who was in his 30s). 

he could be twenty tho, or twenty five, we don't know his age.

 

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Again, words have specific meanings when associated with specific people. 

Sansa is beautiful, that doesn't mean anything as regards to Rhaegar or his children. 

Again, circular argument

you say: Jaqen is Aegon because he is beautiful

I say: A lot of people are beautiful

You say: but it matters when talking about Jaqen because he's Aegon.

DO YOU SE THE FALLACY IN YOU ARGUMENT?

 

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I have, but you are ignoring it. 

He dyed (yes, people dye their hair, it is not naturally two colors) red for his mother Elia (House Martell's sigil is the sun, like fire, like the red god). 

Ony one Westerosi dies her hair: Sansa, for hiding, and one colour.

We never heard of any westerosi dying their hair so it's two colors, and we never heard of anyone dying their hair to match a banner, because it's nonsense.

 

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Again you specifically say using the word Valonqar instead of little brother doesn't mean something. 

No, I'm saying it doesn't mean the valonqar is a person of valiryan ethnicity, because it doesn't, because that's not how languages work.

 

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Many people, including myself disagree. But you say it doesn't mean anything (in a book where a prophecy is carefully worded) because you switch languages all the time. 

I can't begin to tell you how condescending and dishonest you're being. 

Says the guy who:

says untruths repeatedly

constantly uses circular arguments

twists my arguments all of the time

 

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"Jaqen is dead, as dead as Arry". 

Arya also fakes her identity. He came to westeros to reclaim his own, why would he change his face for that. 

Much like the Sphinx (who also bathes and grabs the attention of women) or Hugor Hill (Tyrion) people in the series come up with fake identities.  

"“Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya.” 

He is not embodying some false face, as he would take on their entire identity if he did. 

There's a difference tho, none of the people you name have the ability to change faces. 

But also, it's not a certainty that that's his real face, can we agree on that?

 

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Again with the casual insults. 

This is how the book writes the scene:  

He has sworn. “Even if I named the king . . .” “Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies.” He knelt beside her, so they were faceto-face, “A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?”

Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl . . . she makes a jest.” 

It's a peculiar wording, that was also changed in the show. 

But it plays to the same affect. 

He says a girl would weep and lose a friend, but that is after this scene. 

See? she never calls him a king, she was just wondering how far he would go.

 

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YG claims to be Aegon. Anyone who does must follow a similar timeline. 

Especially given Duck's chest. 

Oh wait, are you going to say that is gratuity as well? 

Are you going to tell me GRRM wants me to F**** off for discussing something, or does that apply to everyone else who makes the discussions?

I repeat, the only thing we know about Aegon's timeline is that he was born at 281 and either died or got swapped at 283 anything after that could've happened, so anything could fit.

 

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When Arya is sent to kill the money lender, she is told not to show her face or she would fail.

Because she was using her face, she would be recognized, also, he was training her, it's not an actual rule that we know.

 

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They do not steal items. However if he meant to kill someone it could be possible, but overall the concept of breaking into the citadel to steal a valuable item does not fit what the kindly man established was a religious organization with no ulterior motives. 

He may be lying, we don't know the faceless men goals

 

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And yet you are doing just that right here. 

You have continued to bring up the point that many characters do many things, which is to be honest is irrelevant and useless. 

We are discussing a chapter centered around an assassination by a faceless man. 

The text discussing a kindly old mentor who sighs applies to the context of the characters being introduced. 

Nope, it doesn't, it's just a coincidence.

 

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So you brought up a minor character in a discussion about a specific character to insinuate that anyone could be involved. 

Was his face stolen as well, same as Robb? 

No dude, I'm just saying that hte characteristics you use are way to generic and a lot of people can fit them, so it proves nothing

 

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They are not the same characters because they are not the same characters. 

There is a fundamental difference between what we speak.  

Saying something like Jeyne likes lemon cakes as does Sweetrobin (which I don't think is true besides) does not apply to discussing a mystery character hidden from view being someone else introduced to us. 

For example, I'm sure other people like ginger, but I'm sure those other people are not secretly Aegon VI. 

We have to look at who the subject matter is (at Harrenhall or elsewhere). 

So that's again a circular argument. It's only relevant as evidence of Jaqen being Aegon because you are already sure Jaqen is Aegon, if you take it out of that context it proves nothing.

 

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Pate's story cannot, because it has to do with alchemist, and any and all forms of symbolism I point out should be discussed.

But you are making up Aegon's backstory, so it would obviously fit, because you are using Pate's to make up Aegon's, it's not true evidence because it came out of your head.

 

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Of course not, but you can see that quiet clearly. 

Great, can you see why it means nothing in the Jaqen/Aegon context aswell?

 

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Evidence does not have to be confirmed to be discussed or analyzed.  If so most nothing could be discussed on this site. 

I agree, but there needs to be evidence to an idea, specially to be as sure as you are, for it to be relevant. You are trying to prove Jaqen and Aegon are one, great, try, but you need evidecne to do that, and you don't seem to have.

 

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Looking at motivations (dragons), character movement, as well as their role in the plot can help figure out much truths. 

We don't know either of their motivations, so we'll be just guessing

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@butterweedstrover I propose a new discussion, the other one was getting too long and there's a whole message of me (and two of another guy) you didn't reply to. In order to make it smaller I propose to break it down into you five pieces of evidence. I also propose no insults, no mistreatment of any kind, and specially, no circular arguments, as those negate any serious discussion and are ridiculously angering to argue against. For this, I propose you leave the idea that Jaqen is Aegon just for making arguments, don't argue as if it was already proven, try to prove it, so for example, saying things like "it's relevant because he's Aegon" or something like that, I will not accept those arguments, and I will no respond to them. You are trying to prove a point, so that point can't be used as evidence.

If you agree, here are my arguments:

 

1. Illyrio mentions once that YG likes candied ginger, Jaqen once smells like ginger.

This is not a strong connection, as two characters eating the same food does not mean they are the same, it is quite common to have two different characters liking the same food. And in this case it wasn't even the same food, one was ginger, the other was candied ginger. Also, we don't know if Jaqen was eating ginger, maybe the smell stuck to him after he banged the cook. 

On the other hand, candied ginger is tied to Young Griff, not to Aegon, and you claim they are two different characters, so it doesn't fit. And no, Illyrio wouldn't give YG candy as proof of legitimacy because:

- Babies don't eat candy, and the world only knew Aegon as a baby.

- If people know this about Aegon then it's no proof of legitimacy because it's easy to fake.

- People's taste change as they grow.

 

Also ginger is brought up only once with Jaqen and only once with Aegon, so it doesn't seem to be of much importance.

 

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By the time Arya lit her stub of a candle, only a faint smell remained of him, a whiff of ginger and cloves lingering in the air.

 

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"There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it." Illyrio sounded oddly sad. "I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …"

These are the two quotes, as we can see there's nothing similar between them.

 

 

2. The Appearance

While both men are described as pretty that's about it, and it's a generic match to be of substance. Furthermore, Jaqen is only described as 'handsome' while Rhaegar was an incredibly beautiful man. 

The only other thing that might fit is the white hair, but while Jaqen's is white, Rhaegar's is silver. And Jaqen is also half readhead, and no, it isn't dyed, as he spent a long time in the black cells, traveling with Yoren and then at Harrenhall without his roots showing, so it's unlikey that he dyes it. I couldn't find the quote, but I think Sansa applies dye often.

We have never heard of a character that dyes their hair to match a banner, so that also seems unlikely.

Lastly, Jaqen is on a mission, he has taken a different name, made up a backstory and nationality and is faking an accent, he has the ability to change his face, so why would he be using his real face? we have no evidence that he is, and we should assume that it isn;t his real face. do you have any proof that it is?

With regards to the age, his behavior speaks of a man of at least twenty, that's why most drawings of the character look that way, Arya still thinks of him as an adult, not a fellow kid (like Gendry)

 

3. The parallel

Now, if the parallel is used as evidence that Jaqen is Aegon, then we should have the parallel without Jaqen being Aegon, but we don't. You claim a parallel to a scene that we aren't sure ever happened, under those circumstances there can't be a parallel, parallels are text to text, or text to subtext, or subtext to subtext, but they can never be text to stuff that maybe happened but it's nowhere near the text or the subtext. Meaning, an author can't parallel a scene that he never wrote.

So, the only two paralleling arguments we have are Arya/Lyanna and Harrenhall, but nothing about her relationship to Jaqen brings out Lyanna's relationship to Rhaegar, so we are lacking in there as well, therefore, this means nothing with regards of Jaqen being Aegon.

 

 

4. Matching backstory

You claim that Pate's backstory matches the backstory you made up for Aegon, the problem is that you made up this backstory, so it can' be used as an argument.

 

 

5. Matching timeline

We know nothing of Aegon's timeline after the year 283. We also know nothing of Jaqen's timeline prior to the year 299, so their timelines don't match, because we don't know what they look like, for example (and I'm not claiming they are the same character) Gerion Lannister's timeline matches Jaqen's timeline, because we know nothing of Gerion after 292, Jaqen only shows up at 299, and therefore the timelines fit. In the same way, Aegon's timeline might match that of Daario, as we know nothing of Daario prior to to the year 300.

Saying that these timelines match is like saying two corner pieces of a thousand pieces puzzle match, no they don't, they might be a part of the same puzzle, but you need all the other pieces in the middle to be sure.

 

 

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 6:15 PM, CamiloRP said:

Also, I don't think the power in that relationship is as one sided as the link states, Craster is for the most part giving the Others things he doesn't want, the Others are only getting boys and the babies they are taking are genetically bankrupt.

The Others aren't life as we know it, I doubt they care about genetics. And sacrificing one's entire male line would be far too extreme for basically any other character in the books.

8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

We have ample evidence that the alchemist is the man from Harrenhall.

Correct. We got the description of Jaqen when he transformed, the same description for the Alchemist, and then someone posing as the Alchemist's murdered victim popping up again and acting atypically.

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We also have ample evidence that he is looking for a book on dragons, and that he has an egg for himself.

No, we don't. Nothing comparable to the evidence for the prior claim.

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When their is ample discussion of a baby swap

Not that ample. YG briefly brings it up to explain to Tyrion why he didn't die during the sack, then Varys implicitly confirms the story to a disbelieving Kevan by noting that Aegon is not dead but has landed in Westeros. But even Varys doesn't say anything about a swap at that point because the how & why is a comparatively minor detail.

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the repeated motif of a baby's head being unrecognizable

How is it repeated? I thought it was only noted in the case of Aegon having a smashed head.

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there were reasons to believe Aegon was alive before YG

What were those reasons?

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A lie is saying something when you know its not true.

You don't seem to know how often you're wrong. You are building castles (theories) on a foundation of sand ("subtext" based on things you misremember as being in the books). That's just going to collapse without a solid foundation of stone (the actual text of the books).

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in Essos, where the baby swap happened

There's no evidence for that.

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words have specific meanings when associated with specific people

How do you know what the "specific meaning" is when it's applied to Jaqen?

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He dyed (yes, people dye their hair, it is not naturally two colors)He dyed (yes, people dye their hair, it is not naturally two colors)

The Alchemist doesn't have the same hair-coloring, and we didn't see Jaqen dye his hair to transform. He just did it via Faceless Man magic. The same magic presumably produced that distinctive hair-coloring in the first place.

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in a book where a prophecy is carefully worded

Carefully worded so that "valonquar" doesn't have any Targaryen siblings to be younger than in Maggie's earlier prophecy. Unless you think Viserys or Daenerys are the "valonquar" to Rhaegar.

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He came to westeros to reclaim his own

There's no evidence for that.

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why would he change his face for that

You are asking us to explain your own nonsensical theory. You need to explain why anybody should take any of your theory seriously rather than assuming it as part of your argument.

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He is not embodying some false face, as he would take on their entire identity if he did

"Jaqen" is a Lorathi devotee of "the Red God". That doesn't sound like Aegon VI. It's a false identity.

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It's a peculiar wording, that was also changed in the show.

But it plays to the same affect.

She plainly doesn't call him a king. She asks if he would kill a king, then tells him to kill Jaqen H'ghar (which he sort of claims to actually do when he changes his face).

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When Arya is sent to kill the money lender, she is told not to show her face or she would fail.

She is not told no Faceless Man can ever let a victim see their face.

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They do not steal items

Only according to you. They're already killing people, there's no reason to think they'd refrain from theft if that helped.

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the concept of breaking into the citadel to steal a valuable item does not fit what the kindly man established was a religious organization with no ulterior motives

We don't know what the Alchemist is trying to get from the Citadel, or why, and thus we can't determine how that might fit with the broader goals of the HoBaW (of which we still understand little).

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That's fine. You see I won't insult you for your opinion.

You could, the statement is completely unsupported by the text... just like your theories.

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Of course not, but you can see that quiet clearly.

Exactly as clearly as CamiloRP can see that the Jaqen isn't Aegon either.

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Looking at motivations (dragons)

You're not looking at anything in the text, you're just making up a motivation.

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55 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Others aren't life as we know it, I doubt they care about genetics.

What do they want the babies for? I doubt it's for eating or making wights, I think it's for breeding purposes because it matches with the story and previous GRRM writings, in that sense they would absolutely care about genetics, but even if not for that, inbred children, specially Craster's children, who are like 99% Craster are in general less healthy and weaker, so it's an extra problem for the Others as they likely want them alive.

 

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And sacrificing one's entire male line would be far too extreme for basically any other character in the books.

Yep, but not for Craster, it's a non cost for him, it's like the mob going to a restaurant and going 'hey, we won't cause any trouble... if you let us take out the trash'. The Others are basically providing a service from Craster's POV, non a incredibly necessary service, as he could just send them to The Wall, or drown them or whatever, but still, he's not loosing much.

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

@butterweedstrover I propose a new discussion, the other one was getting too long and there's a whole message of me (and two of another guy) you didn't reply to. In order to make it smaller I propose to break it down into you five pieces of evidence. I also propose no insults, no mistreatment of any kind, and specially, no circular arguments, as those negate any serious discussion and are ridiculously angering to argue against. For this, I propose you leave the idea that Jaqen is Aegon just for making arguments, don't argue as if it was already proven, try to prove it, so for example, saying things like "it's relevant because he's Aegon" or something like that, I will not accept those arguments, and I will no respond to them. You are trying to prove a point, so that point can't be used as evidence.

If you agree, here are my arguments:

 

1. Illyrio mentions once that YG likes candied ginger, Jaqen once smells like ginger.

This is not a strong connection, as two characters eating the same food does not mean they are the same, it is quite common to have two different characters liking the same food. And in this case it wasn't even the same food, one was ginger, the other was candied ginger. Also, we don't know if Jaqen was eating ginger, maybe the smell stuck to him after he banged the cook. 

On the other hand, candied ginger is tied to Young Griff, not to Aegon, and you claim they are two different characters, so it doesn't fit. And no, Illyrio wouldn't give YG candy as proof of legitimacy because:

- Babies don't eat candy, and the world only knew Aegon as a baby.

- If people know this about Aegon then it's no proof of legitimacy because it's easy to fake.

- People's taste change as they grow.

 

Also ginger is brought up only once with Jaqen and only once with Aegon, so it doesn't seem to be of much importance.

 

 

These are the two quotes, as we can see there's nothing similar between them.

 

 

2. The Appearance

While both men are described as pretty that's about it, and it's a generic match to be of substance. Furthermore, Jaqen is only described as 'handsome' while Rhaegar was an incredibly beautiful man. 

The only other thing that might fit is the white hair, but while Jaqen's is white, Rhaegar's is silver. And Jaqen is also half readhead, and no, it isn't dyed, as he spent a long time in the black cells, traveling with Yoren and then at Harrenhall without his roots showing, so it's unlikey that he dyes it. I couldn't find the quote, but I think Sansa applies dye often.

We have never heard of a character that dyes their hair to match a banner, so that also seems unlikely.

Lastly, Jaqen is on a mission, he has taken a different name, made up a backstory and nationality and is faking an accent, he has the ability to change his face, so why would he be using his real face? we have no evidence that he is, and we should assume that it isn;t his real face. do you have any proof that it is?

With regards to the age, his behavior speaks of a man of at least twenty, that's why most drawings of the character look that way, Arya still thinks of him as an adult, not a fellow kid (like Gendry)

 

3. The parallel

Now, if the parallel is used as evidence that Jaqen is Aegon, then we should have the parallel without Jaqen being Aegon, but we don't. You claim a parallel to a scene that we aren't sure ever happened, under those circumstances there can't be a parallel, parallels are text to text, or text to subtext, or subtext to subtext, but they can never be text to stuff that maybe happened but it's nowhere near the text or the subtext. Meaning, an author can't parallel a scene that he never wrote.

So, the only two paralleling arguments we have are Arya/Lyanna and Harrenhall, but nothing about her relationship to Jaqen brings out Lyanna's relationship to Rhaegar, so we are lacking in there as well, therefore, this means nothing with regards of Jaqen being Aegon.

 

 

4. Matching backstory

You claim that Pate's backstory matches the backstory you made up for Aegon, the problem is that you made up this backstory, so it can' be used as an argument.

 

 

5. Matching timeline

We know nothing of Aegon's timeline after the year 283. We also know nothing of Jaqen's timeline prior to the year 299, so their timelines don't match, because we don't know what they look like, for example (and I'm not claiming they are the same character) Gerion Lannister's timeline matches Jaqen's timeline, because we know nothing of Gerion after 292, Jaqen only shows up at 299, and therefore the timelines fit. In the same way, Aegon's timeline might match that of Daario, as we know nothing of Daario prior to to the year 300.

Saying that these timelines match is like saying two corner pieces of a thousand pieces puzzle match, no they don't, they might be a part of the same puzzle, but you need all the other pieces in the middle to be sure.

 

 

 

Let's establish what we do know about 'Jaqen'.                                              Let's establish what we do know about Aegon VI 

1. He was in the black cells for some duration of time                                     1. He is Rhaegar's oldest son 

2. He could not escape (otherwise he would not look to Arya for help).         2. He was a year old when the rebellion started

3. He has a coin from the faceless man                                                            3. He is Elia's son  

4. He can assassinate people fairly well                                                            4. He has white hair like his father

5. Rorge and Biter are afraid of him                                                                  5. Varys is the master of whispers at this time 

6. He is not at the house of black and white when Arya arrives                       6. Varys claims to have taken him away at the start of the war

7. The kindly man claims to not know who he is                                              7. Rhaegar called him the prince who was promised / song of ice and fire

8. He is the alchemist                                                                                        8. The baby is said to have been killed during the sack

8. The alchemist has killed at least one person by showing his face                9. Gregor only admits to the crime during single combat with Oberyn

9. The women in Harrenhall are attracted to him                                            10. Rhaenys is his older sister

10. Two hair colors has not been shown to be genetic trait in ASOIAF           11. No one could identify the corpse                                                            

11. His accent breaks, therefore his accent is fake                                           12. He was the sixth in his name

12. He is not Lorathi 

13. In book 2 he has an iron coin. In book 4 he has a gold coin 

14. He has "promises to keep"

15. Arya asks him to stay/he offers to take her across the narrow sea  

 

 

Now let's look at our third character, Pate. 

Pate is killed by the alchemist, and has his identity stolen from him.  

1. He is a student at the citadel 2. He is a pig boy 3. He wants a golden dragon 4. He steals Walgrave's key 5. He wants a fifteen year old maiden named Rosey 6. He is killed by some poison 7. He is from the Westerlands 8. He is eighteen years old. 

More on him later.  

There are two character relevant to both 'Jaqen' and 'Aegon'. 

His name is Varys. 

Varys is Rugen (it is confirmed to us in book 4, but the discerning eye could figure it out by book 1). 

Rugen is the undergaelor of the black cells. 

Rugen knows who occupies his cells and why.  

Varys is from Essos. 

He knows the people in the cell. 

In book one there are three people (minus Ned): Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen 

Two of them are violent beings. One of them is a handsome clean individual. 

According to Yoren or Arya, whoever is in the black cell "must have done a very bad thing".  

So he had him locked up for one of two reasons 

1. Jaqen committed a great crime (purposefully or otherwise). 

2. Or Rugen wanted him in their for his own reasons.  

Either way Varys knew. 

Lets look at number 13: 

This man called 'Jaqen' had an iron coin he gave to Arya. Then he had a gold coin he gave to Pate.

In the prologue of AFFC he says: “An alchemist. I can change iron into gold.” 

The Nightingale harps: "gold for iron, gold for iron, gold for iron"  

Now in Braavos (where the faceless men are from) the most beautiful woman is known as the Nightingale 

AFFC: "To Sam she said, “If they ask who is the most beautiful woman in the world, say the Nightingale or else they’ll challenge you. Do you want to buy some clams? I sold all my oysters."  

Pate thinks the Nightingale makes better music than the city bells: "Though not so sweet as one small nightingale" - AFFC 

But his target affection is the girl Rosey: "Not half as sweet as Rosey"- AFFC 

Now in the classic fairy tale The Swineherd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swineherd) a prince disguises as a pig boy to win over an emperor's daughter. 

His prized processions that he offers as gifts are a Rose and a Nightingale 

In Pate's backstory there are two archmaesters, Ebrose and Vaellyn. 

Both accuse him of being a thief.  

In ASOIAF Arbor Gold symbolizes lies. 

The kindly man tells Arya wine is a lie (she will gain no truth from wine). 

In the prologue to AFFC the kindly old "Archmaester Ebrose will be speaking on the properties of urine" - AFFC 

Leo responds that “Myself, I prefer the taste of Arbor gold.”- AFFC 

Arbor Gold is lies, but piss water is the opposite. It "properties" are truth. 

Discovering the truth is the goal of the citadel: "bend your wits to learning truths a man can trust in" -Vaellyn, AFFC  

So we go to our fourth character, young griff. 

Now YG is too young to remember the sack of KL (I believe he wasn't born yet, but whatever). 

This is the story he is told, and the one he tells Tyrion in ADWD: "“That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner’s son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away.” 

So the pisswater boy was traded for arbor gold. 

The truth was traded for lies. The true prince was traded for the false prince.

Now we first have to determine that YG is a fake. I have offered up his age, and also the fact that he took no interest in the items in the chest. 

But I guess you will need more. There is of course ancillary evidence about a mummers dragon, and the black dragon in the crossroads inn rusting red (Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen).  There is also the fact that the golden company supports his claim. 

But none of this proves he is a fake. 

But now Camilo, you are going to have to excuse me. I will enter the realm of speculation: 

*** WARNING *** 

Ok... If you want to stop reading here its fine, I will mark the part were speculation territory ends. 

If in fact he is not the real Aegon, then the baby swap should not have happened. I take issue with this claim. Because the story of a child swap still happened relative to YG. 

The true heir (the pisswater boy) was replaced by the false heir (the arbor gold). Lies for truth.  

Even if he was not Aegon VI, he was swapped at some point with another person.  

*** WARNING END ***

Ok we're done with that. 

Now back to Pate. He meets the alchemist twice. 

He is, like in the Swineherd, a false prince (not really, just thematically).  

Pate claims "He would have stood a better chance of hatching a real dragon than saving up enough coin to make a golden one." -AFFC 

Leo asks Pate: “Do you think she’s truly worth a dragon?" -AFFC. 

Dragons in ASOIAF symbolize a royal family in westeros. Is the girl (fifteen year old maiden) worth a dragon? 

He meets the alchemist a second time, and Pate asks: “Do you have my dragon?” he asked the alchemist"- AFFC  

They go down an ally and Pate repeats: “I want my dragon.”- AFFC

He wonders what the alchemist wants the keys for, "“Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world." 

This book in ADWD is revealed (by Tyrion) to be about real dragons. "And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel." -ADWD 

So lets look at Pate's story from the start to finish (as Regards the alchemist, or Jaqen H'ghar). 

"On one side was a three-headed dragon, on the other the head of some dead king. Gold for iron, Pate remembered, you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her? “I am no thief,” he had told the man who called himself the alchemist" - AFFC 

So we have Pate, a pig boy, who wants a dragon for a girl, or thinks the girl is worth a dragon. 

This girl is fifteen years old and a maiden. She is called Rosey, twice as sweet as the nightingale. The nightingale sings music.  

He is the pig boy like from the swineherd.   

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The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

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Lets look at what we do know. 

(Correct me if I am wrong). Rhaegar played the harp for Lyanna in Harrenhall, and she wept. 

Elia knows this. "Will you make a song for him" (She is talking about Aegon). He says Aegon already has one, he looks away and says "There must be one more" and he drums his harp with "Sweet sadness". 

This is what he did with Lyanna, that is who he is thinking of. He does not look at his wife when he speaks. She knows. 

"The dragon has three heads". This is what Alleras says in AFFC: "“The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl." 

The gold coin Pate wants  has "On one side was a three-headed dragon". 

Rhaegar wants the three heads of the dragon, he wants needs a third child.  

This is Barristan Selmy on Elia: "It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."- ASOS

That's a problem. 

Cersei isn't a reliable source for anything, but this quote is useful: "It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest"- Cersei 

Feeble is subjective, but flat chest, among her delicate health, did not make her a good candidate for child baring, especially in the days before penicillin. At the time of this vision Aegon is a newborn. 

"a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed." - ACOK 

So she was in no position for a third pregnancy. 

The vision ends there, but there is more (we will get to that).  

Back to Pate. So we have pig boy, looking for the sweetness of Rosey, twice the nightingale. He wants a dragon (again the chapter deliberately uses this language) with three heads.  

He is offered the dragon (first meeting). "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" 

Connect that line to the one Rhaegar and Elia were speaking of. He speaks of the need for a third child, then drums the sad song that made Lyanna weep (it doesn't have to be the exact same song, the point is he is making sad music with his harp). 

So Elia asks him: "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?"  

To which Pate responds: “I am no thief,” 

Which is what Rhaegar says as well in this situation. The three headed dragon, they both want the fifteen year old maiden. 

In the end, at their second meeting, Pate concedes that he is indeed a thief. He will take Rosey now. But that decision kills him, much like it does Rhaegar.  

But what does this have to do with Alchemist? Well lets go back to the house of the undying. Dany leaves that room and comes upon Pyat Pree. He attempts to trick her so she goes the wrong direction. 

Instead she goes right. "She walked away from him, to the door on the right. “No,” Pyat screeched. “No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee.” His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike." -ACOK 

She has a vision of her brother and nephew, and now she finds another door (at last): "Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening."

This is Arya when first coming upon the house of black and white: "At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. “Let me in, you stupid,” she said. “I crossed the narrow sea.” She made a fist and pounded. “Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin.” She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. “See? Valar morghulis.” 

The door of black and white appears to her, after she has the vision of Aegon and Rhaegar and Elia. It leads her outside the house of the undying, away from the warlock Pyat Pree. 

When she is in trouble "She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood." -ACOK 

Drogon, the dragon is devouring the door of black and white.  He flies back to her later. The dragon at the door of the facelessmen. 

The dragon, the third head consuming the first.  

In Arya's chapter in a ADWD, she is told about the Great Shepherd and the three heads of the trios: 

“That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Threeheaded Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don’t know what the middle head’s supposed to do." - ADWD 

So what about Jaqen? Lets look at #2 on our list. 

In ACOK, Yoren's party is come upon by Lannister men under the Gods eye. This is also where Rhaegar 'kidnaps' (depending on what you choose to believe) Lyanna. 

Now Arya has the chance to save three people locked in a cage. Yoren was told to keep them safely locked away because they are very dangerous. Rugen is the person who puts them in the cell, so in the end he is the deciding factor their. No one is suppose to go talk to these three, but as the entire place is burning down, Arya throws them an axe and saves them.  

She kills a man that gets in her way. 

This is the moment she saves them: "And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters." 

Before that, when Jaqen is calling out to Arry, he says this: "“Boy!” called Jaqen H’ghar. “Sweet boy!”  

Sweet. He wants her to save them. 

"Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say." 

This is the fire that is destroying everything at this point.  

"The fire beat at her back with hot red wings

" Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake"

So the fires around Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge have three personifications. 

It roars like a monstrous beast 

It beats air with hot red wings 

And it moves like a black snake" 

A snake is a reptile. 

We have a reptile, with wings, that roars like a monstrous beast. That is the description of a dragon, a black dragon I think.  

Arya then goes to her knees, and calls out "For whom, she could not say." 

The dragon, the burning, the death. 

A primary goal that GRRM has stated is a second dance with dragons. This is a great allusion to that, but we have Arya calling out to someone whose name she does not know, someone she will yet be bonded to, the person staring right at her through the smoke and glaze.  

So then we go to the second time she sees him. He is on horseback, returning across the draw bridge with Amory Lorch at the head. Arya at this point is only a grey mouse girl working in the stables and yard. The company on horseback have entered the castle grounds. 

"Then she saw the three near the end of the column. Rorge had donned a black half-helm with a broad iron nasal that made it hard to see that he did not have a nose. Biter rode ponderously beside him on a destrier that looked ready to collapse under his weight. Half-healed burns covered his body, making him even more hideous than before. But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration.

Unlike the other two he is well made, and smiling atop his horse as the other women giggle.  

"Only Jaqen H’ghar so much as glanced in her direction, and his eyes passed right over her. He does not know me, she thought. Arry was a fierce little boy with a sword, and I’m just a grey mouse girl with a pail." 

He remembers her, but from his position right now he only looks down on her. He is shining atop a horse and has the attention of everyone, Arry is "just a grey mouse girl with a pail" 

Remember the story of the swineherd, the royal princess ignores the prince, for he is beneath her. This same type of behavior is mimicked here.  

Now we go to number 7: "He is the song of ice and fire." 

He has white hair for ice, and red for fire. It is his song. He lives to fulfill the prophecy. 

When he parts ways with Arya, he does not tell her he himself is no one. He still knows and remebers her: 

“As well ask what good is life, what good is death? If the day comes when you would find me again, give that coin to any man from Braavos, and say these words to him—valar morghulis.”

She does go, and that is what she asks: The kindly man tells her: 

Arya: “I only came to find Jaqen H’ghar.”

Kindly Man “I do not know this name.” 

Afterwards she shows him the coin, and he know her name. She lies but he is looking for an answer. He has heard of Arya of house stark, and the coin told him what he needed to know. 

Unless you assume he is a mind reader which is giving the kindly man too much credit.  

"The priest studied the coin, though he made no move to touch it. The waif with the big eyes was looking at it too. Finally, the cowled man said, “Tell me your name, child.” - AFFC 

He knows of this man, as does the waif. 

So we have a meeting between the two in the gods eye, she saves him, he goes onto help the girl, they go their separate ways. Arya goes to the home of Jaqen H'ghar but finds him absent. He is in Oldtown, he is looking for a book on dragons.  

Now with Pate we see him at the Quill and Tankard, an inn or tavern. 

The Alchemist is garbed in a brown cloak, watching Pate. He waits for them to be along before approaching him. 

Remember the parallel I made of LOTR? 

Strider was watching the main companions in a dark corner, in a cloak, in the Prancing Pony? Remember how I said both go by false names, Strider and the Alchemist, while both are secret heirs, Aragorn II and Aegon VI? 

Well there is one more thing.   

Pate asks him why he did not approach him earlier, he says:

"“You were with your friends. It was not my wish to intrude upon your fellowship.” The alchemist wore a hooded traveler’s cloak, brown and nondescript."  

The group could hardly be called united, but there is your wink and your nod.  

 

My Post is done. It got out of hand, I've been working on it for four hours. Probably because I enjoyed looking through these PDFs for textual evidence of the sort. 

It may not be what you're looking for, but I did get carried away probably.  

 

 

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First of all, duo to you not responding to any of the five points I assume that we both agree none of them make sense, so that's great

second of all

 

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Let's establish what we do know about 'Jaqen'.                                              Let's establish what we do know about Aegon VI 

1. He was in the black cells for some duration of time                                     1. He is Rhaegar's oldest son 

2. He could not escape (otherwise he would not look to Arya for help).         2. He was a year old when the rebellion started

3. He has a coin from the faceless man                                                            3. He is Elia's son  

4. He can assassinate people fairly well                                                            4. He has white hair like his father

5. Rorge and Biter are afraid of him                                                                  5. Varys is the master of whispers at this time 

6. He is not at the house of black and white when Arya arrives                       6. Varys claims to have taken him away at the start of the war

7. The kindly man claims to not know who he is                                              7. Rhaegar called him the prince who was promised / song of ice and fire

8. He is the alchemist                                                                                        8. The baby is said to have been killed during the sack

8. The alchemist has killed at least one person by showing his face                9. Gregor only admits to the crime during single combat with Oberyn

9. The women in Harrenhall are attracted to him                                            10. Rhaenys is his older sister

10. Two hair colors has not been shown to be genetic trait in ASOIAF           11. No one could identify the corpse                                                            

11. His accent breaks, therefore his accent is fake                                           12. He was the sixth in his name

12. He is not Lorathi 

13. In book 2 he has an iron coin. In book 4 he has a gold coin 

14. He has "promises to keep"

15. Arya asks him to stay/he offers to take her across the narrow sea  

On Aegon's 6: Varys doesn't claim to have taken him away at the start of the war, he claims to have taken YG, if YG isn't Aegon then that's that.

On Aegon's 9: Gregor admits to the crime, Tywin also admits to the crime to Tyrion and it's in general an accepted truth in Westeros.

On Jaqen's 7: The Kindly Man claims not to know him because that was Arya's first lesson in being no one, Jaqen is not Jaqen, and therefore The Kindly Man doesn't know him.

On Jaqen's 10: Darkstar has two color hair, so does Tyrion, and I'm willing to bet there's more.

 

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Now let's look at our third character, Pate. 

Pate is killed by the alchemist, and has his identity stolen from him.  

1. He is a student at the citadel 2. He is a pig boy 3. He wants a golden dragon 4. He steals Walgrave's key 5. He wants a fifteen year old maiden named Rosey 6. He is killed by some poison 7. He is from the Westerlands 8. He is eighteen years old. 

More on him later.  

There are two character relevant to both 'Jaqen' and 'Aegon'. 

His name is Varys. 

Varys is Rugen (it is confirmed to us in book 4, but the discerning eye could figure it out by book 1). 

Rugen is the undergaelor of the black cells. 

Rugen knows who occupies his cells and why.  

Varys is from Essos. 

He knows the people in the cell. 

In book one there are three people (minus Ned): Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen 

Two of them are violent beings. One of them is a handsome clean individual. 

Jaqen is also a violent being, he's an assassin who's murdered a lot of people.

 

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According to Yoren or Arya, whoever is in the black cell "must have done a very bad thing".  

So he had him locked up for one of two reasons 

1. Jaqen committed a great crime (purposefully or otherwise). 

2. Or Rugen wanted him in their for his own reasons.  

Either way Varys knew. 

Knew what? that he was in the cells? what's the importance of that? There's also the option that he let himself be caught on purpose, like many fans believe.

 

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Lets look at number 13: 

This man called 'Jaqen' had an iron coin he gave to Arya. Then he had a gold coin he gave to Pate.

In the prologue of AFFC he says: “An alchemist. I can change iron into gold.” 

The Nightingale harps: "gold for iron, gold for iron, gold for iron"  

Now in Braavos (where the faceless men are from) the most beautiful woman is known as the Nightingale 

AFFC: "To Sam she said, “If they ask who is the most beautiful woman in the world, say the Nightingale or else they’ll challenge you. Do you want to buy some clams? I sold all my oysters."  

Pate thinks the Nightingale makes better music than the city bells: "Though not so sweet as one small nightingale" - AFFC 

But his target affection is the girl Rosey: "Not half as sweet as Rosey"- AFFC 

Now in the classic fairy tale The Swineherd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swineherd) a prince disguises as a pig boy to win over an emperor's daughter. 

His prized processions that he offers as gifts are a Rose and a Nightingale 

In Pate's backstory there are two archmaesters, Ebrose and Vaellyn. 

Both accuse him of being a thief.  

Neither of them does such a thing.

Also, there's a nightingale in braavos and one in Pates chapter, great, it means nothing.

 

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In ASOIAF Arbor Gold symbolizes lies. 

The kindly man tells Arya wine is a lie (she will gain no truth from wine). 

In the prologue to AFFC the kindly old "Archmaester Ebrose will be speaking on the properties of urine" - AFFC 

Leo responds that “Myself, I prefer the taste of Arbor gold.”- AFFC 

Arbor Gold is lies, but piss water is the opposite. It "properties" are truth. 

Discovering the truth is the goal of the citadel: "bend your wits to learning truths a man can trust in" -Vaellyn, AFFC  

So we go to our fourth character, young griff. 

Now YG is too young to remember the sack of KL (I believe he wasn't born yet, but whatever). 

This is the story he is told, and the one he tells Tyrion in ADWD: "“That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner’s son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away.” 

So the pisswater boy was traded for arbor gold. 

The truth was traded for lies. The true prince was traded for the false prince.

Now we first have to determine that YG is a fake. I have offered up his age, and also the fact that he took no interest in the items in the chest. 

But I guess you will need more. There is of course ancillary evidence about a mummers dragon, and the black dragon in the crossroads inn rusting red (Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen).  There is also the fact that the golden company supports his claim. 

But none of this proves he is a fake. 

But now Camilo, you are going to have to excuse me. I will enter the realm of speculation: 

*** WARNING *** 

Ok... If you want to stop reading here its fine, I will mark the part were speculation territory ends. 

If in fact he is not the real Aegon, then the baby swap should not have happened. I take issue with this claim. Because the story of a child swap still happened relative to YG. 

The true heir (the pisswater boy) was replaced by the false heir (the arbor gold). Lies for truth.  

Even if he was not Aegon VI, he was swapped at some point with another person.  

*** WARNING END ***

I thinks there's a fair chance YG is fake, I also think we will never find out if he is or isn't.

The story of a child swap happened relatively to YG because he claims it did, either because he's Aegon or because he's lying, but to claim that he's lying and there was still a baby swap makes no sense. If I said "I'm actually Einstein's secret son" you would either believe me or not, but you wouldn't think I'm both lying and somehow connected to Einstein.

 

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Ok we're done with that. 

Now back to Pate. He meets the alchemist twice. 

He is, like in the Swineherd, a false prince (not really, just thematically).  

Pate claims "He would have stood a better chance of hatching a real dragon than saving up enough coin to make a golden one." -AFFC 

Leo asks Pate: “Do you think she’s truly worth a dragon?" -AFFC. 

Dragons in ASOIAF symbolize a royal family in westeros. Is the girl (fifteen year old maiden) worth a dragon? 

He meets the alchemist a second time, and Pate asks: “Do you have my dragon?” he asked the alchemist"- AFFC  

They go down an ally and Pate repeats: “I want my dragon.”- AFFC

He wonders what the alchemist wants the keys for, "“Is it some book you want?” Some of the old Valyrian scrolls down in the locked vaults were said to be the only surviving copies in the world." 

This book in ADWD is revealed (by Tyrion) to be about real dragons. "And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel." -ADWD 

Again, no meaning on this. Tyrion is also interested in dragon books, same as Doran, and Quentyn, none of them are Targs.

 

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So lets look at Pate's story from the start to finish (as Regards the alchemist, or Jaqen H'ghar). 

"On one side was a three-headed dragon, on the other the head of some dead king. Gold for iron, Pate remembered, you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her? “I am no thief,” he had told the man who called himself the alchemist" - AFFC 

So we have Pate, a pig boy, who wants a dragon for a girl, or thinks the girl is worth a dragon. 

This girl is fifteen years old and a maiden. She is called Rosey, twice as sweet as the nightingale. The nightingale sings music.  

He is the pig boy like from the swineherd.   

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The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

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Lets look at what we do know. 

(Correct me if I am wrong). Rhaegar played the harp for Lyanna in Harrenhall, and she wept. 

Elia knows this. "Will you make a song for him" (She is talking about Aegon). He says Aegon already has one, he looks away and says "There must be one more" and he drums his harp with "Sweet sadness". 

This is what he did with Lyanna, that is who he is thinking of. He does not look at his wife when he speaks. She knows. 

"The dragon has three heads". This is what Alleras says in AFFC: "“The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl." 

The gold coin Pate wants  has "On one side was a three-headed dragon". 

Rhaegar wants the three heads of the dragon, he wants needs a third child.  

This is Barristan Selmy on Elia: "It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."- ASOS

That's a problem. 

Cersei isn't a reliable source for anything, but this quote is useful: "It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest"- Cersei 

Feeble is subjective, but flat chest, among her delicate health, did not make her a good candidate for child baring, especially in the days before penicillin. At the time of this vision Aegon is a newborn. 

"a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed." - ACOK 

So she was in no position for a third pregnancy. 

The vision ends there, but there is more (we will get to that).  

Back to Pate. So we have pig boy, looking for the sweetness of Rosey, twice the nightingale. He wants a dragon (again the chapter deliberately uses this language) with three heads.  

He is offered the dragon (first meeting). "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" 

Connect that line to the one Rhaegar and Elia were speaking of. He speaks of the need for a third child, then drums the sad song that made Lyanna weep (it doesn't have to be the exact same song, the point is he is making sad music with his harp). 

So Elia asks him: "you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?"  

To which Pate responds: “I am no thief,” 

Which is what Rhaegar says as well in this situation. The three headed dragon, they both want the fifteen year old maiden. 

This connection makes no sense, why do you connect the two scenes? what draws you to connect them? you don't know that Rhaegar said those lines, he probably didn't, you are just grabbing two different scenes from two different books and putting them together just cause. What's the connector? a three headed dragon? there a lots of those in the story, it was the official coin before Robert, is it the fifteen year old girl? there's also tons of those. There's no reason to connect both scenes.

 

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In the end, at their second meeting, Pate concedes that he is indeed a thief. He will take Rosey now. But that decision kills him, much like it does Rhaegar.  

But what does this have to do with Alchemist? Well lets go back to the house of the undying. Dany leaves that room and comes upon Pyat Pree. He attempts to trick her so she goes the wrong direction. 

Instead she goes right. "She walked away from him, to the door on the right. “No,” Pyat screeched. “No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee.” His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike." -ACOK 

She has a vision of her brother and nephew, and now she finds another door (at last): "Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening."

This is Arya when first coming upon the house of black and white: "At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. “Let me in, you stupid,” she said. “I crossed the narrow sea.” She made a fist and pounded. “Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin.” She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. “See? Valar morghulis.” 

The door of black and white appears to her, after she has the vision of Aegon and Rhaegar and Elia. It leads her outside the house of the undying, away from the warlock Pyat Pree. 

It's not the same door tho, look at the description "swirling, twisting in strange interwoven patterns" it's not the same door. Mixin weirwood with ebony happens a lot in the story.

 

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When she is in trouble "She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood." -ACOK 

Drogon, the dragon is devouring the door of black and white.  He flies back to her later. The dragon at the door of the facelessmen. 

The dragon, the third head consuming the first.  

what?

 

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In Arya's chapter in a ADWD, she is told about the Great Shepherd and the three heads of the trios: 

“That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Threeheaded Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don’t know what the middle head’s supposed to do." - ADWD 

So what about Jaqen? Lets look at #2 on our list. 

In ACOK, Yoren's party is come upon by Lannister men under the Gods eye. This is also where Rhaegar 'kidnaps' (depending on what you choose to believe) Lyanna. 

Now Arya has the chance to save three people locked in a cage. Yoren was told to keep them safely locked away because they are very dangerous. Rugen is the person who puts them in the cell, so in the end he is the deciding factor their. No one is suppose to go talk to these three, but as the entire place is burning down, Arya throws them an axe and saves them.  

She kills a man that gets in her way. 

This is the moment she saves them: "And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters." 

Before that, when Jaqen is calling out to Arry, he says this: "“Boy!” called Jaqen H’ghar. “Sweet boy!”  

Sweet. He wants her to save them. 

"Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say." 

This is the fire that is destroying everything at this point.  

"The fire beat at her back with hot red wings

" Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake"

So the fires around Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge have three personifications. 

It roars like a monstrous beast 

It beats air with hot red wings 

And it moves like a black snake" 

A snake is a reptile. 

We have a reptile, with wings, that roars like a monstrous beast. That is the description of a dragon, a black dragon I think.  

If Jaqen was Aegon he would be a red dragon, a black dragon is a Blackfyre.

 

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Arya then goes to her knees, and calls out "For whom, she could not say." 

The dragon, the burning, the death. 

A primary goal that GRRM has stated is a second dance with dragons. This is a great allusion to that, but we have Arya calling out to someone whose name she does not know, someone she will yet be bonded to, the person staring right at her through the smoke and glaze.  

No, that means she's generally creaming for help to no one in particular.

 

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So then we go to the second time she sees him. He is on horseback, returning across the draw bridge with Amory Lorch at the head. Arya at this point is only a grey mouse girl working in the stables and yard. The company on horseback have entered the castle grounds. 

"Then she saw the three near the end of the column. Rorge had donned a black half-helm with a broad iron nasal that made it hard to see that he did not have a nose. Biter rode ponderously beside him on a destrier that looked ready to collapse under his weight. Half-healed burns covered his body, making him even more hideous than before. But Jaqen H’ghar still smiled. His garb was still ragged and filthy, but he had found time to wash and brush his hair. It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration.

Unlike the other two he is well made, and smiling atop his horse as the other women giggle.  

"Only Jaqen H’ghar so much as glanced in her direction, and his eyes passed right over her. He does not know me, she thought. Arry was a fierce little boy with a sword, and I’m just a grey mouse girl with a pail." 

He remembers her, but from his position right now he only looks down on her. He is shining atop a horse and has the attention of everyone, Arry is "just a grey mouse girl with a pail" 

Remember the story of the swineherd, the royal princess ignores the prince, for he is beneath her. This same type of behavior is mimicked here.  

Now we go to number 7: "He is the song of ice and fire." 

He has white hair for ice, and red for fire. It is his song. He lives to fulfill the prophecy. 

When he parts ways with Arya, he does not tell her he himself is no one. He still knows and remebers her: 

“As well ask what good is life, what good is death? If the day comes when you would find me again, give that coin to any man from Braavos, and say these words to him—valar morghulis.”

She does go, and that is what she asks: The kindly man tells her: 

Arya: “I only came to find Jaqen H’ghar.”

Kindly Man “I do not know this name.” 

Afterwards she shows him the coin, and he know her name. She lies but he is looking for an answer. He has heard of Arya of house stark, and the coin told him what he needed to know. 

Unless you assume he is a mind reader which is giving the kindly man too much credit.  

"The priest studied the coin, though he made no move to touch it. The waif with the big eyes was looking at it too. Finally, the cowled man said, “Tell me your name, child.” - AFFC 

He knows of this man, as does the waif. 

So we have a meeting between the two in the gods eye, she saves him, he goes onto help the girl, they go their separate ways. Arya goes to the home of Jaqen H'ghar but finds him absent. He is in Oldtown, he is looking for a book on dragons.  

So? Also, you con't know that he's looking for dragons.

 

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Now with Pate we see him at the Quill and Tankard, an inn or tavern. 

The Alchemist is garbed in a brown cloak, watching Pate. He waits for them to be along before approaching him. 

Remember the parallel I made of LOTR? 

Strider was watching the main companions in a dark corner, in a cloak, in the Prancing Pony? Remember how I said both go by false names, Strider and the Alchemist, while both are secret heirs, Aragorn II and Aegon VI? 

Well there is one more thing.   

Pate asks him why he did not approach him earlier, he says:

"“You were with your friends. It was not my wish to intrude upon your fellowship.” The alchemist wore a hooded traveler’s cloak, brown and nondescript."  

The group could hardly be called united, but there is your wink and your nod.  

 

My Post is done. It got out of hand, I've been working on it for four hours. Probably because I enjoyed looking through these PDFs for textual evidence of the sort. 

This is better than the last time, now you have more of a reason to connect both parts. It's probably nothing but a joke from George tho.

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16 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

2. The Appearance

While both men are described as pretty that's about it, and it's a generic match to be of substance. Furthermore, Jaqen is only described as 'handsome' while Rhaegar was an incredibly beautiful man. 

The only other thing that might fit is the white hair, but while Jaqen's is white, Rhaegar's is silver. And Jaqen is also half readhead, and no, it isn't dyed, as he spent a long time in the black cells, traveling with Yoren and then at Harrenhall without his roots showing, so it's unlikey that he dyes it. I couldn't find the quote, but I think Sansa applies dye often.

We have never heard of a character that dyes their hair to match a banner, so that also seems unlikely.

Lastly, Jaqen is on a mission, he has taken a different name, made up a backstory and nationality and is faking an accent, he has the ability to change his face, so why would he be using his real face? we have no evidence that he is, and we should assume that it isn;t his real face. do you have any proof that it is?

With regards to the age, his behavior speaks of a man of at least twenty, that's why most drawings of the character look that way, Arya still thinks of him as an adult, not a fellow kid (like Gendry)

 

 

 

 

 

One quick thing about this. 

He is described as having "slender, fine features" while GRRM said Targaryens have "fine chiseled faces" 

I searched up the definition, and the latter means a clear bone structure, very easy to see.  

It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration.   

His hair is white, but also described as shining much of the time. Also keep in mind Targaryens have different hues to the white of their hair. 

He is constantly compared to the Sphinx, or Hugor Hill. 

He makes up names for the likes of Biter, and made up the Lorathi background (he keeps saying I am from the free city of Lorath) 

It is close to braavos, but he never lived there himself. This is the same logic Tyrion used when he took up the identity of Hugor Hill. 

The Sphinx (Alleras) who is in disguise also smiles all the time like Jaqen. Bet here were are told it is because he (she) knows a jib that no one else knows. 

The idea is the same, someone makes up a fake identity, a fake name, and goes around being that person. 

Jaqen's accent, on a second read through, breaks at multiple times. He is not so good at keeping it up. 

Wearing someone's face does two things: 

1. It makes you that person 

2. It is not a created identity, it is someone else 

 

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

On Aegon's 6: Varys doesn't claim to have taken him away at the start of the war, he claims to have taken YG, if YG isn't Aegon then that's that. 

Varys claims that YG is Aegon, so he does claim that he swapped the babies. 

Of course he could be lying about both those things, but that is his claim.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

On Aegon's 9: Gregor admits to the crime, Tywin also admits to the crime to Tyrion and it's in general an accepted truth in Westeros. 

My point is only that no one asked him before. Tywin and Tyrion have this discussion, everyone just assumes it was him. 

I'm not saying they are wrong, but the books highlighted this point so I thought it worth bringing up.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

On Jaqen's 7: The Kindly Man claims not to know him because that was Arya's first lesson in being no one, Jaqen is not Jaqen, and therefore The Kindly Man doesn't know him. 

It is what it is, I just put it their in the number.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

On Jaqen's 10: Darkstar has two color hair, so does Tyrion, and I'm willing to bet there's more. 

Darkstar has a lock of hair that is different, but I don't know of any biological example where hair is different split straight through the middle. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Jaqen is also a violent being, he's an assassin who's murdered a lot of people. 

In perpetuity. I just meant appearance.  

Ted Bundy didn't look like a crazed serial killer. 

Charles Manson looks more the part (I don't think he actual killed anyone, but whatever, you get the point).

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Knew what? that he was in the cells? what's the importance of that? There's also the option that he let himself be caught on purpose, like many fans believe. 

That is why I put committed a crime on purpose. He wanted to get caught 

Personally I don't buy it, elsewise he wouldn't be in the cage trying to get out. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Neither of them does such a thing. 

I was thinking about Maester Gormon. The other two didn't like him either: 

"Maester Gormon had suspected Pate of breaking it, but that wasn’t true" (the chest in Walgrave's chambers). 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, there's a nightingale in braavos and one in Pates chapter, great, it means nothing. 

Its more about the nightingale in his chapter compared to rosey. 

You have a pig boy who values the sweetness of the nightingale's music and Rosey.  

I see the parallel but you don't have to agree, that is fine. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

I thinks there's a fair chance YG is fake, I also think we will never find out if he is or isn't.

The story of a child swap happened relatively to YG because he claims it did, either because he's Aegon or because he's lying, but to claim that he's lying and there was still a baby swap makes no sense. If I said "I'm actually Einstein's secret son" you would either believe me or not, but you wouldn't think I'm both lying and somehow connected to Einstein.

I don't think YG knows either way. 

I think Aegon VI is alive (pretty much since the Valonqar theory), but the traded the false one for the real one so to speak. 

Either way YG has no clue. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Again, no meaning on this. Tyrion is also interested in dragon books, same as Doran, and Quentyn, none of them are Targs. 

I think there is. Personally (for me) I see the discussion about a secret locked away book, and the subject being brought up in AFFC meaning he is looking for that same thing. 

And with Euron's dragon egg, it fits together. 

Of course you don't have to agree, it's just where I'm at right now.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

This connection makes no sense, why do you connect the two scenes? what draws you to connect them? you don't know that Rhaegar said those lines, he probably didn't, you are just grabbing two different scenes from two different books and putting them together just cause. What's the connector? a three headed dragon? there a lots of those in the story, it was the official coin before Robert, is it the fifteen year old girl? there's also tons of those. There's no reason to connect both scenes.

I don't agree. 

As I hope I've described, the alchemist, the man in Harrenhall, and the search for a dragon. 

We know have Pate looking wondering if a girl (of fifteen) is worth a dragon. He is also, like the swineherd, a symbolical representation of a hidden prince (same as I believe the alchemist is).  

So he asks him for the deal, and there discussion plays out much like he is Rhaegar. The latter wanted the girl for the prophecy, the three heads of the dragon. The coin with a three headed dragon.  

So he wonders, is she worth it? Do you want her? 

I believe that the vision would have shown us this as well. 

Either way if they did marry (Lyanna and Rhaegar), like I believe, this goes back to the events in Harrenhall. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

It's not the same door tho, look at the description "swirling, twisting in strange interwoven patterns" it's not the same door. Mixin weirwood with ebony happens a lot in the story. 

The house of the undying twists and turns things. 

The wolf head on the throne is not the red wedding, it is a depiction of the red wedding.  

Swirling, twisting, etc. give the image of a dream sequence where things are blurred together. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

what? 

Its a reference to the trios, or the three heads of the great Shepherd Arya finds in Braavos. 

Notice one thing though: 

She eats the worm/rotten apple. When she meets the kindly man she eats the worm from his face (or tries to). 

He is surprised, and this is only the second time were Arya devouring worms/apples has been mentioned. It also happens in ASOS. 

I think Arya is the devourer, the third head, but that is just my opinion. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

If Jaqen was Aegon he would be a red dragon, a black dragon is a Blackfyre. 

I think the dragon referenced her is most likely drogon. 

Its an image of what will happen during the second dance with dragons (burning, fire, death). 

But I also think the connection between Jaqen and Arya will be there when it happens. They will be together at that moment. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

No, that means she's generally creaming for help to no one in particular. 

Of course this is my opinion, but I think she will call out to him when the dragons battle, but she doesn't know his true name yet. 

Personally that is what I get from it. 

"For whom, she could not say." 

Of course it works like the above too, I think that's where multiple meanings come in. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

So? Also, you con't know that he's looking for dragons. 

There is a lot referenced in that quote, but I'm guessing you mean the end. 

What I take this as, is that they will meet again. 

If Jaqen was just a fake mask, he himself would have no connection to Arya. 

But he does, and they will meet again. 

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

 

This is better than the last time, now you have more of a reason to connect both parts. It's probably nothing but a joke from George tho.

Yeah, either way its a wink and a nod, or a joke if you will. But of course I've said what I believe on this matter. 

Anyways, I really enjoyed writing that post. I think I'll reference it to anyone who cares, but it pretty much sums up everything I think on the subject. 

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10 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

One quick thing about this. 

He is described as having "slender, fine features" while GRRM said Targaryens have "fine chiseled faces" 

I searched up the definition, and the latter means a clear bone structure, very easy to see.  

I told you, I searched for 'chiseled' in a search of ice and fire, it's never brought up on relation to Targaryens.

 

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It streamed down across his shoulders, red and white and shiny, and Arya heard the girls giggling to each other in admiration.   

Girls giggling means nothing.

 

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His hair is white, but also described as shining much of the time. Also keep in mind Targaryens have different hues to the white of their hair. 

His hair is also red, which isn't because of dye, as his roots would be showing after all that time. Alsowe have no reason to believe it's dyed hair and no one in the story dyes hair to match the color of banners, no one in the story dyes only half of their hair.

 

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He is constantly compared to the Sphinx, or Hugor Hill. 

Nope, not even once, and even then, what would that mean?

 

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He makes up names for the likes of Biter, and made up the Lorathi background (he keeps saying I am from the free city of Lorath) It is close to braavos, but he never lived there himself.

You don't know that he never lived there. 

 

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This is the same logic Tyrion used when he took up the identity of Hugor Hill. 

Or that arya uses for Mercy, what's the point?

 

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The Sphinx (Alleras) who is in disguise also smiles all the time like Jaqen. Bet here were are told it is because he (she) knows a jib that no one else knows. 

Jaqen is in disguise, like Alleras, if there's any parallel here, which I doubt, it's that.

 

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The idea is the same, someone makes up a fake identity, a fake name, and goes around being that person. 

Jaqen's accent, on a second read through, breaks at multiple times. He is not so good at keeping it up. 

Wearing someone's face does two things: 

1. It makes you that person 

2. It is not a created identity, it is someone else 

It's still what faceless men do, do you have any evidence that that's his actual face?

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9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Varys claims that YG is Aegon, so he does claim that he swapped the babies. 

Of course he could be lying about both those things, but that is his claim.

Yes, but the only evidence that we have for there being a baby swap is Varys saying he did that with Young Griff, if he didn't do that with Young Griff, then there's no evidence of a baby swap happening, understand?

 

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My point is only that no one asked him before. Tywin and Tyrion have this discussion, everyone just assumes it was him. 

I'm not saying they are wrong, but the books highlighted this point so I thought it worth bringing up.

What's the point here?

 

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It is what it is, I just put it their in the number.

Yes, I'm just explaining why that is.

 

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Darkstar has a lock of hair that is different, but I don't know of any biological example where hair is different split straight through the middle. 

We also don't have an example of a character dying half their hair nor do we have one of a character dying their hair so it matches their banner.

 

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In perpetuity. I just meant appearance.  

Ted Bundy didn't look like a crazed serial killer. 

Charles Manson looks more the part (I don't think he actual killed anyone, but whatever, you get the point).

People don't get imprisoned because of their looks, well they do in the real world, but not in Westeros, it doesn't matter how he looks if he comited a crime, likely the reason why he's in jail.

 

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That is why I put committed a crime on purpose. He wanted to get caught 

Personally I don't buy it, elsewise he wouldn't be in the cage trying to get out. 

You misspoke, he didn't commit the crime on purpose (I mean, he did, but all criminals do) you should have said he got caught on purpose.

He may be acting like he's trying to get out just to fit the part.

Also, what did Varys know?

 

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I was thinking about Maester Gormon. The other two didn't like him either: 

"Maester Gormon had suspected Pate of breaking it, but that wasn’t true" (the chest in Walgrave's chambers). 

Okey, so he calls him a thief, what then?

 

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Its more about the nightingale in his chapter compared to rosey. 

You have a pig boy who values the sweetness of the nightingale's music and Rosey.  

I see the parallel but you don't have to agree, that is fine. 

What parallel? And I don't mean to the fairytale, I mean, what does it mean for the Jaqen-Aegon connection?

 

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I don't think YG knows either way. 

I think Aegon VI is alive (pretty much since the Valonqar theory), but the traded the false one for the real one so to speak. 

Either way YG has no clue. 

But there's still no reason to assume that Aegon is alive if he's not YG.

Also even if we assume the use of Valonqar means that they are valiryan, which still sounds like a big leap to me, it could still be Dany.

 

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I think there is. Personally (for me) I see the discussion about a secret locked away book, and the subject being brought up in AFFC meaning he is looking for that same thing. 

And with Euron's dragon egg, it fits together. 

Of course you don't have to agree, it's just where I'm at right now.

Yes, you can claim he's trying to birth dragons, (but then, why is he still at The Citadel instead of having run off with the book?) but that doesn't mean he's necessarily Aegon, evryone wants a dragon, their really powerful weapons.

Tyrion wants one, Doran wants one, Euron wants one, Xaro wants one, the masters of Astapor want one, Victarion wants one, the tethered prince wants one, but none of them are Valiryan and none of them are Aegon.

 

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I don't agree. 

As I hope I've described, the alchemist, the man in Harrenhall, and the search for a dragon. 

We know have Pate looking wondering if a girl (of fifteen) is worth a dragon. He is also, like the swineherd, a symbolical representation of a hidden prince (same as I believe the alchemist is).  

So he asks him for the deal, and there discussion plays out much like he is Rhaegar. The latter wanted the girl for the prophecy, the three heads of the dragon. The coin with a three headed dragon.  

So he wonders, is she worth it? Do you want her? 

I believe that the vision would have shown us this as well. 

Either way if they did marry (Lyanna and Rhaegar), like I believe, this goes back to the events in Harrenhall. 

Except the discussion doesn't play out like he's Rhaegar, as you have no reason to suspect neither him nor Ellia said those lines, nothing connects the two scenes. Lyanna isn't even mentioned in that scene, so the parallel is again, drawn completely by you.

 

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The house of the undying twists and turns things. 

The wolf head on the throne is not the red wedding, it is a depiction of the red wedding.  

Swirling, twisting, etc. give the image of a dream sequence where things are blurred together. 

Nope, the red wedding bit is how visions work, they are metaphorical, but when actual things show up in visions they aren't changed unless that's the point of the vision. It wasn't the HOBAW, it was different.

 

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Its a reference to the trios, or the three heads of the great Shepherd Arya finds in Braavos. 

Notice one thing though: 

She eats the worm/rotten apple. When she meets the kindly man she eats the worm from his face (or tries to). 

He is surprised, and this is only the second time were Arya devouring worms/apples has been mentioned. It also happens in ASOS. 

I think Arya is the devourer, the third head, but that is just my opinion. 

In what way is this relevant to Jaqen being Aegon?

Also, if Arya was the third head of the dragon just because she's associated with eating, where does that leave Wyman Manderly?

 

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I think the dragon referenced her is most likely drogon. 

Its an image of what will happen during the second dance with dragons (burning, fire, death). 

But I also think the connection between Jaqen and Arya will be there when it happens. They will be together at that moment. 

Great, its still no evidence for him being Aegon then. 

If he was Aegon the dragon who'd represent him would be red (for the banner) or either white or green if it was one of the three dragons that would be connected to him, as Drogon is Dany's.

 

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Of course this is my opinion, but I think she will call out to him when the dragons battle, but she doesn't know his true name yet. 

Personally that is what I get from it. 

"For whom, she could not say." 

Of course it works like the above too, I think that's where multiple meanings come in. 

Great, it's no evidence for him being Aegon tho.

 

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There is a lot referenced in that quote, but I'm guessing you mean the end. 

What I take this as, is that they will meet again. 

If Jaqen was just a fake mask, he himself would have no connection to Arya. 

But he does, and they will meet again. 

Jaqen was an identity taken by a faceless man, that faceless man still has a relationship with Arya, regardless of his face, when Arya changes faces she still remembers the people her other personalities meet, they are still of significance to her. Also, this again means nothing for him being Aegon.

 

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Yeah, either way its a wink and a nod, or a joke if you will. But of course I've said what I believe on this matter. 

Anyways, I really enjoyed writing that post. I think I'll reference it to anyone who cares, but it pretty much sums up everything I think on the subject. 

Great.

 

Well then, you replied to point 2, but you ignored points 1, 3, 4 and 5, I assume we agree they don't work.

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3 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I told you, I searched for 'chiseled' in a search of ice and fire, it's never brought up on relation to Targaryens.

 

 

I'm just going to answer this because I didn't understand last time. 

I was taking from GRRM on his not a blog post. He comments on the lack of racial diversity: 

Speaking of Valyria... right from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional 'high fantasy' choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so). 

https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17886026#t17886026 

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2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, but the only evidence that we have for there being a baby swap is Varys saying he did that with Young Griff, if he didn't do that with Young Griff, then there's no evidence of a baby swap happening, understand?

Well there are two types of evidence: 

The type that is told to us, and the type figured out through literary device. 

Here is an example of what I mean: In a story (say a murder mystery) that emphasizes another killer (like the black dahlia) who has never been caught, there is a good chance the two murders are connected. Not through physical evidence, but based on what the story teller shows us/highlights for us. 

So you see since book 1 there has been a big deal that the baby Aegon (unlike his sister) was not recognized. This is repeated again and again whenever he is brought up. 

In real life that isn't evidence, but in a story that is an author clueing us in to his intentions. 

If nothing comes of it, we call this a red herring. But it is still part of the text, and what I consider evidence. 

Before YG we have been told that Aegon VI did not have his corpse recognized. We are told Rhaegar thought him to be PHWP, we are shown a vision regarding him. 

Then we have the concept of a baby swap introduced to us with Jon. 

You see Gilly and Dalla have nothing to do with Elia and whoever else was in KL at the time, but authors use plot points to suggest certain things. 

So besides YG (which also introduces the idea to us), we have a motif of an unidentified child, the three heads of the dragon, the Valonqar (yes, I know that's debatable, but still), etc. 

It suggests to us he may still be alive, even though in the real world none of that applies as evidence.  

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

What's the point here? 

Same as above. I have no clue, but its worth mentioning. 

Let me use another example: I was reading an Agitha Christie book once. Now the telling of this story harped on how the victim had cried out a screech that shocked everyone in the house. 

Say it once and it means nothing, but repeat it over and over again, readers become suspicious. 'Is the author telling us something'? 

A loud, hollow screech. 

Now if I was a real detective in a real house with a real murder, I would not pursue this line of investigation. The man is dead I think, so he screamed before he was killed. 

But in a story something that is given specified language and repeated many times is a literary device. 

This device could turn out to be a red herring, or nothing at all. But its worth considering. 

If Westeros was real, I'd not think twice on this subject. But I noted three times in the books were Gregor is said to not have admitted to the crime, and for Tywin not to have asked him.  

It could mean nothing, but I note it anyways. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Yes, I'm just explaining why that is. 

Ok

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

We also don't have an example of a character dying half their hair nor do we have one of a character dying their hair so it matches their banner. 

Sometimes colors need to be distinct. Elia burned hotter than the sun, or Dornish passion is red hot. 

Think of it as a clever placed image: 

He is called the song of ice and fire by his father. He has white hair for ice, and red hair for fire. 

And the two halves have a secondary meaning, white for Targaryens, Red for Dorne. 

The chances of it being an idle fashion choice are more likely in real life than in literature where all the characters are crafted by one person. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

People don't get imprisoned because of their looks, well they do in the real world, but not in Westeros, it doesn't matter how he looks if he comited a crime, likely the reason why he's in jail. 

That's true. 

But I think the line of discussion was about how Jaqen was different from the typical criminal/ Rorge and Biter. 

Also, we don't know what crime, if any, he committed. 

I don't deny he is violent, but their are different types of violence. He is not like Biter or Rorge. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

You misspoke, he didn't commit the crime on purpose (I mean, he did, but all criminals do) you should have said he got caught on purpose.

He may be acting like he's trying to get out just to fit the part.

Also, what did Varys know? 

He got caught in a fire, he needed someone to save him. He does not go to the wall at any point. 

Whatever was happening there was not part of his plan. 

And Varys is smart, if he has a faceless man in his cells he would no. 

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Okey, so he calls him a thief, what then? 

I was just observing that it seems the Maesters/ Archmaesters didn't like or trust Pate. 

That deep down, they knew who he was better than he did, a thief. 

Doesn't mean much, I just wrote that down as one of my observations.

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

What parallel? And I don't mean to the fairytale, I mean, what does it mean for the Jaqen-Aegon connection? 

We have (I think) two given outside parallels: 

1 for the Alchemist, and 1 for Pate. 

The Alchemist is compared to Strider from LOTR, and Pate is compared to the pig boy from Swineherd. 

Both these literary characters are princes in disguise. 

Both of their identities are taken from the man we meet in Harrenhall, in the black cells. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

But there's still no reason to assume that Aegon is alive if he's not YG. 

I wrote about this above, there was reason to believe he was alive before ADWD (when YG was introduced). 

More reasons than Arthur Dayne, that's for sure. 

When an Author builds up a character as being important, and having died under suspicious circumstances, readers are suggested that he is alive. 

That does not make it so, but it is how the author portrays it. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Also even if we assume the use of Valonqar means that they are valiryan, which still sounds like a big leap to me, it could still be Dany.

Beautiful is not gendered, people just assume it is. 

However "brother", "his hands", both the noun and pronoun are gendered suggesting a male. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, you can claim he's trying to birth dragons, (but then, why is he still at The Citadel instead of having run off with the book?) but that doesn't mean he's necessarily Aegon, evryone wants a dragon, their really powerful weapons. 

He hasn't got the book yet (as he just obtained the keys from Pate). 

As for why he hasn't left when Sam shows up, there are plenty of reasons. Perhaps he faced more obstacles, perhaps he has nowhere else to go and figures Oldtown (with his disguise) works as a good enough place to try and open a dragon egg, or many other things.  

As for Aegon: 

Lets go over this: He wants a repeat of Summerhall, so far no character has attempted that (besides Rhaegar, before he died). 

But he is also the character who takes to identities given the symbolism of a prince in disguise. He was in Harrenhall, and the black cell. 

And here is the part that goes to your earlier question: We don't know who he is. 

'Jaqen' is just a false name, as is the alchemist, Pate, etc. 

So when you say anyone could secretly be Aegon, given the right age, I don't agree. 

Say Loras was secretly Aegon, but he is a known person, raised by a family in Westeros. 

But we don't know where Jaqen is from (besides that he came from the HOBAW, we don't know his origins). 

Say there is a story of a missing girl in your town. She was disappeared as a child. 

Then one day a mysterious stranger comes to town, same age as the girl would be. 

There is a closer match between that, and saying the neighbor you grew up with (who is also that girl's age) is secretly the same person.  

Regardless we know Aegon ends at some point, then a mysterious stranger comes to Westeros fitting his description, trying at the same goal as Aegon's supposed father. 

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Except the discussion doesn't play out like he's Rhaegar, as you have no reason to suspect neither him nor Ellia said those lines, nothing connects the two scenes. Lyanna isn't even mentioned in that scene, so the parallel is again, drawn completely by you. 

Well there is a lot of subtlety in these scenes, especially the visions.  

Look at the way events play out. Elia is carrying for their child, he looks away from her and says 'but I need one more' 

Then he goes to the windowsill and starts playing sad music on his harp, the same we are told that made Lyanna weep. 

Elia knows he rewarded Lyanna over her, so thinking on that music would make her ask the question. 

Not everything need be stated to be understood, or rationalized. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Nope, the red wedding bit is how visions work, they are metaphorical, but when actual things show up in visions they aren't changed unless that's the point of the vision. It wasn't the HOBAW, it was different.

I think (for me at least) it pretty clearly is. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

In what way is this relevant to Jaqen being Aegon? 

Them being bonded together? 

The third head is a product of the other two. She has ties to one of Rhaegar's son (Jon), and the other she is tied to would be the other dragon head (Aegon VI). 

And remember she takes a gift from both of them, needle and the coin. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, if Arya was the third head of the dragon just because she's associated with eating, where does that leave Wyman Manderly?

Not any food, dead apples, wormed apples. 

Look at the arrows Alleras shoots: He misses one, he cores the other, and the last is a wormed apple. 

They are discussing the three heads of the dragon, Alleras says this out of the bloom, "the dragon has three heads" while he is shooting the apples. 

Each symbolize a different head, Arya is the last head. 

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Great, its still no evidence for him being Aegon then. 

If he was Aegon the dragon who'd represent him would be red (for the banner) or either white or green if it was one of the three dragons that would be connected to him, as Drogon is Dany's. 

I don't think the symbolism to dragon's means Jaqen. 

I think it is symbolizing Drogon, the walls of black fire. 

That is the second dance with dragons. 

What I mean is Jaqen and Arya will be together when it happens. 

And she is bonded to one of Rhaegar's son, and Jaqen makes the other son. 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Great, it's no evidence for him being Aegon tho. 

It ties her to him, just like she is tied to Jon. That does mean something relative to the three heads of the dragon. 

 

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

 

Well then, you replied to point 2, but you ignored points 1, 3, 4 and 5, I assume we agree they don't work.

No, but I don't have anything better to argue with for now. If I do I'll come back and say more. I'm still organizing my thoughts.

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7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'm just going to answer this because I didn't understand last time. 

I was taking from GRRM on his not a blog post. He comments on the lack of racial diversity: 

Speaking of Valyria... right from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional 'high fantasy' choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so). 

https://grrm.livejournal.com/326474.html?thread=17886026#t17886026 

Haden't read that. It's still not brought up in relation to Jaqen tho.

 

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well there are two types of evidence: 

The type that is told to us, and the type figured out through literary device. 

Here is an example of what I mean: In a story (say a murder mystery) that emphasizes another killer (like the black dahlia) who has never been caught, there is a good chance the two murders are connected. Not through physical evidence, but based on what the story teller shows us/highlights for us. 

So you see since book 1 there has been a big deal that the baby Aegon (unlike his sister) was not recognized. This is repeated again and again whenever he is brought up. 

In real life that isn't evidence, but in a story that is an author clueing us in to his intentions. 

If nothing comes of it, we call this a red herring. But it is still part of the text, and what I consider evidence. 

Before YG we have been told that Aegon VI did not have his corpse recognized. We are told Rhaegar thought him to be PHWP, we are shown a vision regarding him. 

Then we have the concept of a baby swap introduced to us with Jon. 

You see Gilly and Dalla have nothing to do with Elia and whoever else was in KL at the time, but authors use plot points to suggest certain things. 

So besides YG (which also introduces the idea to us), we have a motif of an unidentified child, the three heads of the dragon, the Valonqar (yes, I know that's debatable, but still), etc. 

It suggests to us he may still be alive, even though in the real world none of that applies as evidence.  

I would like that as evidence more before reading ADWD, now it's more likely to point out that it is just a way for George to make somewhat believable the story of Young Griff, or he just maybe let himself an open possibility,

Rhaego's corpse was never identified, for example, Quentin was burned (same as Bran and Rickon), Ashara's corpse was never found, and I'm sure there are more, having the baby's face be unrecognizable is not evidence enough for him having survived, and if he did and isn't YG, there is no evidence that he was swapped by Varys, or that he even knows Varys.

 

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Same as above. I have no clue, but its worth mentioning. 

Let me use another example: I was reading an Agitha Christie book once. Now the telling of this story harped on how the victim had cried out a screech that shocked everyone in the house. 

Say it once and it means nothing, but repeat it over and over again, readers become suspicious. 'Is the author telling us something'? 

A loud, hollow screech. 

Now if I was a real detective in a real house with a real murder, I would not pursue this line of investigation. The man is dead I think, so he screamed before he was killed. 

But in a story something that is given specified language and repeated many times is a literary device. 

This device could turn out to be a red herring, or nothing at all. But its worth considering. 

If Westeros was real, I'd not think twice on this subject. But I noted three times in the books were Gregor is said to not have admitted to the crime, and for Tywin not to have asked him.  

It could mean nothing, but I note it anyways. 

Great, so it's irrelevant to wether Aegon is Jaqen.

Also, I find it hard to believe that he didn't do it, not only he confessed, and his boss confessed to have sent him, but everyone believes he did it, and when he confessed he confessed to the death of Aegon but not Rhaenys (whom he didn't kill) even tho Oberyn was accusing him of both.

 

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Ok

Sometimes colors need to be distinct. Elia burned hotter than the sun, or Dornish passion is red hot. 

Think of it as a clever placed image: 

He is called the song of ice and fire by his father. He has white hair for ice, and red hair for fire. 

And the two halves have a secondary meaning, white for Targaryens, Red for Dorne. 

The chances of it being an idle fashion choice are more likely in real life than in literature where all the characters are crafted by one person. 

But it makes no sense for the character to do that, therefore George wouldn't put it in.

Also the color red is associated more with the Targaeryens than with Dorne, and Ellia didn't burn hotter than the sun, she was sickly.

Also, don't ignore the dye problem, it's not dye.

 

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That's true. 

But I think the line of discussion was about how Jaqen was different from the typical criminal/ Rorge and Biter. 

Also, we don't know what crime, if any, he committed. 

I don't deny he is violent, but their are different types of violence. He is not like Biter or Rorge. 

That's the point of it, he's not as brutal, he's not as scary looking, but the others are scared of him, he's more dangerous, more deadly.

 

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He got caught in a fire, he needed someone to save him. He does not go to the wall at any point. 

Whatever was happening there was not part of his plan. 

And Varys is smart, if he has a faceless man in his cells he would no. 

How would he know? faceless men are very tricky.

We don't know if he went to The Wall or not, he was missing for a whole book, but also keep in mind that it was hard for him to go north after the Ironborn took Moat Cailin, maybe he found a different way to continue him plan.

 

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I was just observing that it seems the Maesters/ Archmaesters didn't like or trust Pate. 

That deep down, they knew who he was better than he did, a thief. 

Doesn't mean much, I just wrote that down as one of my observations.

We have (I think) two given outside parallels: 

1 for the Alchemist, and 1 for Pate. 

The Alchemist is compared to Strider from LOTR, and Pate is compared to the pig boy from Swineherd. 

Both these literary characters are princes in disguise. 

Both of their identities are taken from the man we meet in Harrenhall, in the black cells. 

But that kind of undoes your point no? We know for a fact that Pate isn't a prince in disguise.

And The Alchemist's connection to Aragorn is still weak.

 

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I wrote about this above, there was reason to believe he was alive before ADWD (when YG was introduced). 

More reasons than Arthur Dayne, that's for sure. 

When an Author builds up a character as being important, and having died under suspicious circumstances, readers are suggested that he is alive. 

That does not make it so, but it is how the author portrays it. 

Beautiful is not gendered, people just assume it is. 

However "brother", "his hands", both the noun and pronoun are gendered suggesting a male. 

But the word brother isn't used, is Valonqar, we don't know if that word is gendered.

 

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He hasn't got the book yet (as he just obtained the keys from Pate). 

He's had a whole book to do it, he's not very good if he hasn't stayed yet. and no, Oldtown would be the best place, as he would have duties and people watching him.

 

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As for why he hasn't left when Sam shows up, there are plenty of reasons. Perhaps he faced more obstacles, perhaps he has nowhere else to go and figures Oldtown (with his disguise) works as a good enough place to try and open a dragon egg, or many other things.  

As for Aegon: 

Lets go over this: He wants a repeat of Summerhall, so far no character has attempted that (besides Rhaegar, before he died). 

But he is also the character who takes to identities given the symbolism of a prince in disguise. He was in Harrenhall, and the black cell. 

And here is the part that goes to your earlier question: We don't know who he is. 

'Jaqen' is just a false name, as is the alchemist, Pate, etc. 

So when you say anyone could secretly be Aegon, given the right age, I don't agree. 

Say Loras was secretly Aegon, but he is a known person, raised by a family in Westeros. 

But we don't know where Jaqen is from (besides that he came from the HOBAW, we don't know his origins). 

Say there is a story of a missing girl in your town. She was disappeared as a child. 

Then one day a mysterious stranger comes to town, same age as the girl would be. 

There is a closer match between that, and saying the neighbor you grew up with (who is also that girl's age) is secretly the same person.  

Regardless we know Aegon ends at some point, then a mysterious stranger comes to Westeros fitting his description, trying at the same goal as Aegon's supposed father. 

We have no evidence at all that Aegon wants a second Summerhal.

The rest falls flat knowing my country's history: a lot of babies where kidnapped by the government and given to other families, Mace could have done that with Loras, it is possible that you neighbor is someone else without you, or them, not knowing.

 

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Well there is a lot of subtlety in these scenes, especially the visions.  

Look at the way events play out. Elia is carrying for their child, he looks away from her and says 'but I need one more' 

Then he goes to the windowsill and starts playing sad music on his harp, the same we are told that made Lyanna weep. 

Elia knows he rewarded Lyanna over her, so thinking on that music would make her ask the question. 

Not everything need be stated to be understood, or rationalized. 

The thing is, you don't know if it's the same question, or if Ellia even knows Lyanna cried with that song, so nope, no reason for saying those things.

 

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I think (for me at least) it pretty clearly is. 

But it's not, all you have is a door that doesn't look like the HOBAW's door, and you use it to mean it is? it makes no sense at all.

ebony and weirwood are pared a lot throughout the story

Ned turned off the square where the Street of Steel began and followed its winding path up a long hill, past blacksmiths working at open forges, freeriders haggling over mail shirts, and grizzled ironmongers selling old blades and razors from their wagons. The farther they climbed, the larger the buildings grew. The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn. Ned left his horse with Jacks and shouldered his way inside.

for example

 

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I don't think the symbolism to dragon's means Jaqen. 

I think it is symbolizing Drogon, the walls of black fire. 

That is the second dance with dragons. 

What I mean is Jaqen and Arya will be together when it happens. 

And she is bonded to one of Rhaegar's son, and Jaqen makes the other son. 

There is no reason to believe that, and it brings no evidence to Jaqen being Aegon.

 

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It ties her to him, just like she is tied to Jon. That does mean something relative to the three heads of the dragon. 

I was missing circular arguments. You are trying to prove Jaqen is Aegon, so you can't use Jaqen being Aegon as proof of anything. Also we don't know if Jon is a head of the dragon, and Dnay likely is one, so why would Arya be?

 

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No, but I don't have anything better to argue with for now. If I do I'll come back and say more. I'm still organizing my thoughts.

ok

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Haden't read that. It's still not brought up in relation to Jaqen tho.

I'm connecting fine features with fine chiseled face based on the definition of "chiseled".

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I would like that as evidence more before reading ADWD, now it's more likely to point out that it is just a way for George to make somewhat believable the story of Young Griff, or he just maybe let himself an open possibility, 

I don't think YG was thought up that early on. 

You're right he could be using it to keep the door open, but the point was the mystery of Aegon VI was always part of the story.

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Rhaego's corpse was never identified, for example, Quentin was burned (same as Bran and Rickon), Ashara's corpse was never found, and I'm sure there are more, having the baby's face be unrecognizable is not evidence enough for him having survived, and if he did and isn't YG, there is no evidence that he was swapped by Varys, or that he even knows Varys. 

I think Rhaego is alive as well (another person theorized that at least). 

And Ashara, though Quentyn we are with when he burns.  

Edit: Regardless of whether or not they are alive, the question is how often is their fate brought into discussion. 

If people mention (Or just Dany) that she/they never saw the body of her miscarried child, then that works as a literary device. But if it happens and is never mentioned again, then the same doesn't apply. 

If the swap happened, the master of whisperers with friends across the narrow sea would be the one. 

Note that every exile goes to Essos as far as we know, it is safest there. In Fire and Blood we are told about many occasions, and even Ned tells Cersei to go east before Robert comes back. 

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Also, I find it hard to believe that he didn't do it, not only he confessed, and his boss confessed to have sent him, but everyone believes he did it, and when he confessed he confessed to the death of Aegon but not Rhaenys (whom he didn't kill) even tho Oberyn was accusing him of both.

Oberyn says you raped her, you killed her children... 

Children is plural, but he probably heard stories of people saying he did it, he just didn't care to respond before.  

edit: One final thing about Gregor. 

Varys (tittering) say his birds (or whatever) told him Elia screamed out a name before she died. 

She screamed out the name of her killer (I presume). 

Tyrion goes onto say everyone knows it was Gregor, and Varys just goes along with whatever Tyrion said. 

But he never says himself who that name is, who killed her and her child. 

Now I think its wildly convenient for Varys plans to work out as well as they did, the boy being unrecognizable. Something is wrong with this picture of events, but I haven't figured out what yet.  

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But it makes no sense for the character to do that, therefore George wouldn't put it in. 

It does if he is trying to live up to his parent's legacy, another reason why he doesn't take another identity from a dead person. 

"His is the song of ice and fire", white and red.

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Also the color red is associated more with the Targaeryens than with Dorne, and Ellia didn't burn hotter than the sun, she was sickly. 

Was Doran sickly? Yes. But underneath his blood boiled with red hot rage. He is no different from his brother in that sense. We are told Dornish people have a fiery temper, even those who appear meek. 

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Also, don't ignore the dye problem, it's not dye. 

I haven't seen it mentioned as a problem in the books, or the world of westeros. 

How long does a dye last in Westeros? 

Though glamour is also an option in these cases of aesthetic change. 

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That's the point of it, he's not as brutal, he's not as scary looking, but the others are scared of him, he's more dangerous, more deadly. 

Agreed. 

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How would he know? faceless men are very tricky.

We don't know if he went to The Wall or not, he was missing for a whole book, but also keep in mind that it was hard for him to go north after the Ironborn took Moat Cailin, maybe he found a different way to continue him plan.

He doesn't seem very tricky when he is begging "a boy" to free him from a cart. 

He tells Arya to come with him across the narrow sea, otherwise he would go east, or west to the iron islands (Balon contract), and then to oldtown. 

The wall doesn't factor in, and if it did we would be given a hint in Jon's chapters. 

A single person can sneak by, especially one who can change faces, Moat Cailin is more impenetrable for an army. 

I don't see what difficulties he would encounter going north that would require him to get himself locked up in a place he can't escape. 

The fires came pretty close to killing him, and remember Gendry and the others would have left them to die if it weren't for Arya. 

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But that kind of undoes your point no? We know for a fact that Pate isn't a prince in disguise.

And The Alchemist's connection to Aragorn is still weak. 

The Alchemist and Pate are different characters from Jaqen. 

But he takes both of their identities. 

Niether Pate nor the Alchemist were secret princes in disguise, but Jaqen is. 

And he is the one to take their identities. So we have two people over the course of one prologue who are given the allusion of a prince in disguise, both of whom have their identities taken. 

Pate himself is not a prince in disguise of course.

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But the word brother isn't used, is Valonqar, we don't know if that word is gendered. 

"His hands" 

His is gendered. 

And Valonqar is translated into the common tongue as "little brother". Not "little sibling" or "little sister". 

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He's had a whole book to do it, he's not very good if he hasn't stayed yet. and no, Oldtown would be the best place, as he would have duties and people watching him. 

Do we know how long its been since the prologue? 

And again he probably hasn't figured out how to crack and egg, and there are many mystics in Old town (Leyton, Marwyn, etc.) that he would probably hope to learn from. 

Euron is coming, and there are more tools at his disposal in the citadel. 

There are a good many reasons to stay, and I wouldn't say the most secretive books in all the citadel would be easy to get even with a key. Remember this is the same guy that got locked in a wagon with no hope of escape. 

 

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We have no evidence at all that Aegon wants a second Summerhal. 

Sumerhall just means cracking a dragon egg open. 

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The rest falls flat knowing my country's history: a lot of babies where kidnapped by the government and given to other families, Mace could have done that with Loras, it is possible that you neighbor is someone else without you, or them, not knowing. 

As a literary device in Westeros, not as well. 

Royalty in exile go across the narrow sea (Bittersteel, Dany, etc.) 

There are cases it could happen, but Essos is the most likely candidate. 

And again, the literary device of the mysterious stranger who returns to westeros after this many years is pretty well established. 

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The thing is, you don't know if it's the same question, or if Ellia even knows Lyanna cried with that song, so nope, no reason for saying those things. 

I don't, but I can speculate based off of what I see and read. 

"Will you make a song for him?" 

What type of question is that? Rhaegar dismisses her and says he already has a song. 

Now think of it like this "Will you make a song for him", 'like you did for her

Aegon symbolizes their relationship, he is their child.  

'Will you make a song about us'? Then of course he goes to the windowsill, looks away from her, and starts strumming sad music. 

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But it's not, all you have is a door that doesn't look like the HOBAW's door, and you use it to mean it is? it makes no sense at all.

ebony and weirwood are pared a lot throughout the story

Ned turned off the square where the Street of Steel began and followed its winding path up a long hill, past blacksmiths working at open forges, freeriders haggling over mail shirts, and grizzled ironmongers selling old blades and razors from their wagons. The farther they climbed, the larger the buildings grew. The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn. Ned left his horse with Jacks and shouldered his way inside.

for example

That example has a scene carved on the door in ebony and weirwood, not the doors entirely. 

Regardless for me the symbolism is pretty obvious.  

One is a door about a place Ned sees, and the other is in a vision where a girl's dragon goes to devour in the house of the undying. 

And I think ebony and weirwood together is symbolic no matter where its placed, including in this scene. 

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I was missing circular arguments. You are trying to prove Jaqen is Aegon, so you can't use Jaqen being Aegon as proof of anything. Also we don't know if Jon is a head of the dragon, and Dnay likely is one, so why would Arya be?

 

 

Arya is, as I've said to believe, the third head of the dragon. 

The other is a mystery head, and the other is the reborn head (I think). 

I say the characters will be connected in the long term, which makes him more than just an agent of the facelessmen. 

Edited by butterweedstrover

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'm connecting fine features with fine chiseled face based on the definition of "chiseled".

Fine and chiseled don't mean the same, use google images and you'll see, David Bowie has fine features, Herny Cavil has a chiseled face. IN fct, they are kind of opposites, as fine features usually represent smooth faces, like LOTR elves, while chiseled faces usually represent geometric jaws and those sorts of things, like comic book superheroes.

 

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I don't think YG was thought up that early on. 

He didn't need to be, it was just a possibility George was leaving for himself

 

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You're right he could be using it to keep the door open, but the point was the mystery of Aegon VI was always part of the story.

It wasn't, it was just a baby with a smashed face, we had no reason to believe otherwise.

 

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I think Rhaego is alive as well (another person theorized that at least). 

And Ashara, though Quentyn we are with when he burns.  

Edit: Regardless of whether or not they are alive, the question is how often is their fate brought into discussion. 

If people mention (Or just Dany) that she/they never saw the body of her miscarried child, then that works as a literary device. But if it happens and is never mentioned again, then the same doesn't apply. 

If the swap happened, the master of whisperers with friends across the narrow sea would be the one. 

Then that points to Jaqen not being Aegon, because if Varys did the swap the baby is almost definitely YG, if his plan was to use YG all along, there'd be no need for the swap

 

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Note that every exile goes to Essos as far as we know, it is safest there. In Fire and Blood we are told about many occasions, and even Ned tells Cersei to go east before Robert comes back. 

Oberyn says you raped her, you killed her children... 

Children is plural, but he probably heard stories of people saying he did it, he just didn't care to respond before.  

Yes, yet:

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"Elia of Dorne," they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. "I killed her screaming whelp." He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this."

Gregor confesses only to the murder of Aegon, not of Rhaenys, because that was done by Armory Lorch, so why would he confess only to the murder of Aegon if he didn't kill either of them?

 

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edit: One final thing about Gregor. 

Varys (tittering) say his birds (or whatever) told him Elia screamed out a name before she died. 

She screamed out the name of her killer (I presume). 

Tyrion goes onto say everyone knows it was Gregor, and Varys just goes along with whatever Tyrion said. 

But he never says himself who that name is, who killed her and her child. 

Now I think its wildly convenient for Varys plans to work out as well as they did, the boy being unrecognizable. Something is wrong with this picture of events, but I haven't figured out what yet.  

TBH, Varys didn't need the baby's face to be smashed, he probably used a valiryan loking baby (if it wasn't actually Aegon) and all babies look kinda similar (if they have the same ethnicity) and I assume no one would want to carefully look at a dead baby. Conversely, if the baby was Aegon it doesn't matter to Varys as it happened seventeen years ago, and no one would be able to prove that it was when YG shows up.

 

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It does if he is trying to live up to his parent's legacy, another reason why he doesn't take another identity from a dead person. 

What do you mean by the bold part?

 

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"His is the song of ice and fire", white and red.

Was Doran sickly? Yes. But underneath his blood boiled with red hot rage. He is no different from his brother in that sense. We are told Dornish people have a fiery temper, even those who appear meek. 

Doran's sickness is different than Ellia, and she's never mentioned as fiery.

 

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I haven't seen it mentioned as a problem in the books, or the world of westeros. 

How long does a dye last in Westeros? 

In Sansa's chapters she mentiones to re apply it every couple of days, and according to this timeline:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

it's been at least eight months that Jaqen spent in the blacksells/traveling with arya/with the Brave Companions

His roots would be showing up in a big way.

 

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Though glamour is also an option in these cases of aesthetic change. 

Thats ridiculous, no one would maintain a glamor (which requires effort and attention) only for a cosmetic change. 

The simplest solution is probably the right one: it's not his face, because he's a faceless man.

There are other physical differences too, Aegon had Purple eyes, Arya never notes Jaqen having them. 

And theres nothing that leads us to think he's using he's regular face.

 

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Agreed. 

He doesn't seem very tricky when he is begging "a boy" to free him from a cart. 

Are you claiming they aren't? I'd ask again, how would Varys know Jaqen is a faceless man? What leads you to think that?

 

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He tells Arya to come with him across the narrow sea, otherwise he would go east, or west to the iron islands (Balon contract), and then to oldtown. 

The wall doesn't factor in, and if it did we would be given a hint in Jon's chapters. 

A single person can sneak by, especially one who can change faces, Moat Cailin is more impenetrable for an army. 

I don't see what difficulties he would encounter going north that would require him to get himself locked up in a place he can't escape. 

We don't know what he did between ACOK and AFFC, that's all we can say. Even if Euron hired a faceless man, we hav eno indication that it was Jaqen. After all, he was likely in Westeros, and the place one would go to hire a faceless man would be Braavos.

 

Spoiler

The fires came pretty close to killing him, and remember Gendry and the others would have left them to die if it weren't for Arya. 

Yes, that obviously wasn't a part of the plan.

and even still, I'm not sure he planned to get caught, but theres no reason to assume he was caught because Varys knew he was Aegon and sent him to The Wall to rob him of his birthright. That's a story you made up entirely.

 

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The Alchemist and Pate are different characters from Jaqen. 

But he takes both of their identities. 

Niether Pate nor the Alchemist were secret princes in disguise, but Jaqen is. 

And he is the one to take their identities. So we have two people over the course of one prologue who are given the allusion of a prince in disguise, both of whom have their identities taken. 

Pate himself is not a prince in disguise of course.

But the parallel is not to the 'original' alchemist, is to Jaqen/Alchemist, he's the one in a tavern lurking in the corner (a common trope in fantasy, a really common one that doesn't point to Aragorn). So what does it mean? likely nothing.

 

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"His hands" 

His is gendered. 

And Valonqar is translated into the common tongue as "little brother". Not "little sibling" or "little sister". 

Wattever, then it could be Jon, or Tyrion (who speaks valiryan) or any little brother really.

 

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Do we know how long its been since the prologue? 

According to the same timeline I used before three months, but we know it was enough that Pate went from being a screwup to being in Marwyn's circle. If he just wanted the book he should be gone by now.

 

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And again he probably hasn't figured out how to crack and egg, and there are many mystics in Old town (Leyton, Marwyn, etc.) that he would probably hope to learn from. 

Euron is coming, and there are more tools at his disposal in the citadel. 

There are a good many reasons to stay, and I wouldn't say the most secretive books in all the citadel would be easy to get even with a key. Remember this is the same guy that got locked in a wagon with no hope of escape. 

Leyton is the lord of the lnd, he wouldn't even talk to a screwup novice. And tho Marwyn cna tach him, he'd be watched an controlled, as Marwyn would want dragons for his own reasons. Also Marwyn left but Pate stayed.

Euron is comming, so what? that's not a good thing.

He could take any thing he wanted from the citadel. He's an elite assassin (which I assume means he's good at sneaking up) he has a key that opens every lock in The Citadel and he has the ability to take any face he wants. what's stopping him?

 

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Sumerhall just means cracking a dragon egg open. 

We don't have any evidence that Aegon want's to crack a dragon egg. If he's YG his plan seems to be to take one of Dany's dragons. If he's not we have no idea what he wants.

If you meant Jaqen, we have better evidence for him wanting to hatch a dragon, but it's still just a theory, not a fact, and doesn't connect him to Aegon, as many non-targs want dragons, we've been over this already.

 

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As a literary device in Westeros, not as well. 

Royalty in exile go across the narrow sea (Bittersteel, Dany, etc.) 

There are cases it could happen, but Essos is the most likely candidate. 

Why not? Bittersteel is an exile, and Dany is running from the cops, but if a Westerosi lord would take the protection of a baby in secret, it makes sense that they would be kept in Westeros, specifically in said Lord's castle.

 

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And again, the literary device of the mysterious stranger who returns to westeros after this many years is pretty well established. 

You don't know that Jaqen 'returns' to Westeros, just that he traveled to Westeros. If any mysterious stranger could mean secret identity, then we have to ask about every other character.

Whats Bronn's secret identity? Marillion's? Steelshank's? Greenbeard? Anguy? Marwyn? The High Sparrow? it has no end.

 

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I don't, but I can speculate based off of what I see and read. 

I had a typo, I meant to say that you don't know that Rhaegar is playing to Ellia the same song that made Lyanna cry.

 

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"Will you make a song for him?" 

What type of question is that? Rhaegar dismisses her and says he already has a song. 

A common one, given that Rhaegar is a musician.

 

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Now think of it like this "Will you make a song for him", 'like you did for her

There's no reason to assume that Ellia said that. In fact, she doesn't say that in the scene, and she likely isn't thinking about that, she just gave birth, she should be thinking of her child, which she is, that's why she asks if he would write her a song.

 

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Aegon symbolizes their relationship, he is their child.  

'Will you make a song about us'? Then of course he goes to the windowsill, looks away from her, and starts strumming sad music. 

It's not what she asked tho. And with this example you abandoned any 'parallel' to Pate, which is wise, as there wasn't any, but still, it means nothing to Jaqen being Aegon.

 

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That example has a scene carved on the door in ebony and weirwood, not the doors entirely. 

Regardless for me the symbolism is pretty obvious.  

One is a door about a place Ned sees, and the other is in a vision where a girl's dragon goes to devour in the house of the undying. 

And I think ebony and weirwood together is symbolic no matter where its placed, including in this scene. 

I was just showing that the HOBAW's door is not the only time ebony and weirwood are paired in the story, and since the door Dany sees looks nothing like the one in the HOBAW, we have to assume it isn't.

 

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Arya is, as I've said to believe, the third head of the dragon. 

The other is a mystery head, and the other is the reborn head (I think). 

I say the characters will be connected in the long term, which makes him more than just an agent of the facelessmen. 

you've said that Arya is tied to Jaqen and to Jon, if Jon and Arya are both heads of the dragon, that means Jaqen is too. That was your argument. 

Yet Arya is tied to many characters, not just those too, so why would Jaqen specifically be the remaining head and not, lets say Gendry, Sansa, Bran, UnCat, The Hound, etc?

 

Also, thinking Arya is the third head of the dragon just becuase of a really minor tie to a god that's been brought up once and also happens to have three heads, it's also bonkers. As bonkers as thinking The Waif is Ashara Dayne, because we know her backstory and it doesn't fit at all.

I'm tired of going in circles man, but realize that what you claim has no base, at all. If you want to believe it still, fine by me, but don't go around acting like it's a 100% fact, because it isn't. 

When TWOW is published I'll come back for my beer.

 

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28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Fine and chiseled don't mean the same, use google images and you'll see, David Bowie has fine features, Herny Cavil has a chiseled face. IN fct, they are kind of opposites, as fine features usually represent smooth faces, like LOTR elves, while chiseled faces usually represent geometric jaws and those sorts of things, like comic book superheroes.

I could say more about this. Chiseled is (according to this https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/chiseled#:~:text=If you say that someone,a chiselled jaw.)

Slender features show a clear jawline, and fine features show themselves in a fine chiseled faced. 

We have Slender, fine featured face. (Jaqen)

Fine chiseled face. (Targaryen)

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

He didn't need to be, it was just a possibility George was leaving for himself 

Could be, but with the allegory to arbor gold (lies) he was traded for the truth (the pisswater boy). 

This story is told to YG, as he was to young to remember any of this. Truth was traded for lies. 

He is the false prince, the mummer's dragon. 

But Aegon VI, the prince who was promised, has been alluded to since the first book. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

It wasn't, it was just a baby with a smashed face, we had no reason to believe otherwise. 

Being told multiple times that the corpse was unidentifiable is again not "no reason".  

As for the baby swap, the whole point of Jon's actions is to establish the concept of how such a thing should play out. 

"Another woman would have..." 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Then that points to Jaqen not being Aegon, because if Varys did the swap the baby is almost definitely YG, if his plan was to use YG all along, there'd be no need for the swap 

Most of Varys/Ilyrio's plans have been improvised up until this point. 

They thought first they would get Viserys to invade Westeros with an army of Dothraki. 

They thought next that YG should marry Daenerys. 

Then they followed along as Tyrion convinced Connington/Golden company to go west instead of east. 

The Varys moves up his timeline and kills Kevan. 

All this is to say none of their plans are perfect, or even well thought out. 

YG was born after Aegon. 

So the plan didn't come to fruition until after the baby swap. They had Rhaegar's child, but then they had a baby with white hair and Valyrian features. 

The plan follows from there (trade pisswater for arbor gold). 

None of this was planned out. They didn't know Robert would win, or any of that. They conspired as they went. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Yes, yet:

Gregor confesses only to the murder of Aegon, not of Rhaenys, because that was done by Armory Lorch, so why would he confess only to the murder of Aegon if he didn't kill either of them? 

Maybe, we'll see. He probably has heard the accusations before, and he knew Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, so he yells out what people think is the truth. 

Or maybe it is, I really don't know. I'm just keeping it in the back of my mind. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

TBH, Varys didn't need the baby's face to be smashed, he probably used a valiryan loking baby (if it wasn't actually Aegon) and all babies look kinda similar (if they have the same ethnicity) and I assume no one would want to carefully look at a dead baby. Conversely, if the baby was Aegon it doesn't matter to Varys as it happened seventeen years ago, and no one would be able to prove that it was when YG shows up. 

If baby Aegon didn't have his face smashed in, he would be recognized by some of the castle guards/milk ladies/whatever, and that would be that. 

But now things are different, the corpse was specifically said to be unidentified. That lifts much of the burden of proof on YG, Connington, etc.

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

What do you mean by the bold part? 

That the face Jaqen used wasn't from some dead person. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Doran's sickness is different than Ellia, and she's never mentioned as fiery. 

Neither is Doran. We are told he is meek, passive, and sickly. 

We learn the truth about his true temperance, and how long he can hold a grudge, and how far he is willing to go. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

In Sansa's chapters she mentiones to re apply it every couple of days, and according to this timeline:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

it's been at least eight months that Jaqen spent in the blacksells/traveling with arya/with the Brave Companions

His roots would be showing up in a big way. 

Whose to say the dye he's using is the same as Sansa. 

The HOBAW (In Arya's chapter) is filled with poultices, potions, poison's, and stranger things yet from the far east.  

And if the face was fake, shouldn't the same thing apply (since again, the person who would have it would not have their hair biologically split down the middle with two different colors that are of completely different hues). 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

There are other physical differences too, Aegon had Purple eyes, Arya never notes Jaqen having them. 

And theres nothing that leads us to think he's using he's regular face. 

Both of Rhaegar's children (Jon and Rhaenys) look nothing like him. 

Jaqen does more, but he probably doesn't share all the same features. 

Unless we know baby Aegon's eye colors. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Are you claiming they aren't? I'd ask again, how would Varys know Jaqen is a faceless man? What leads you to think that?

The whole point of the claim here is that Jaqen wanted to get captured, and Varys was completely fooled. 

I doubt (from the evidence showed) that he wanted to get captured since tried to get free.  

Rugen is in charge of the black cells, he know who is down there and why. So unless Jaqen got arrested on purpose (which I really doubt), he must have tripped up. And if he did Varys probably has a good idea of who he is dealing with. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We don't know what he did between ACOK and AFFC, that's all we can say. Even if Euron hired a faceless man, we hav eno indication that it was Jaqen. After all, he was likely in Westeros, and the place one would go to hire a faceless man would be Braavos. 

He told Arya he to come with him across the narrow sea, which is I think where he is going. 

Also we don't know when Euron gave out the contract, it could have been before Jaqen arrived in Westeros. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

  Hide contents

The fires came pretty close to killing him, and remember Gendry and the others would have left them to die if it weren't for Arya. 

 

But the parallel is not to the 'original' alchemist, is to Jaqen/Alchemist, he's the one in a tavern lurking in the corner (a common trope in fantasy, a really common one that doesn't point to Aragorn). So what does it mean? likely nothing.

It really works both ways. 

Jaqen/Alchemist are playing the role of secret prince, then he takes the identity of a person who is metaphorically a secret prince (the swineherd). The rules are not so rigid here. 

 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

According to the same timeline I used before three months, but we know it was enough that Pate went from being a screwup to being in Marwyn's circle. If he just wanted the book he should be gone by now.

He could take any thing he wanted from the citadel. He's an elite assassin (which I assume means he's good at sneaking up) he has a key that opens every lock in The Citadel and he has the ability to take any face he wants. what's stopping him? 

There is a lot of evidence he is looking to crack a dragon egg. ADWD brings up the book locked away in the citadel about dragons, Euron's contract, and the motif of Pate wanting a dragon (repeated time and time again). 

If your problem with him is why hasn't he left, then that is something you may as well bring up with the vast number of people who expect this to be the truth. There are many reasons why he would not leave the citadel so soon, many reasons. 

Remember, according to the extended lore, it was most like the maesters who poisoned the dragon eggs after the first dance with dragons. They know much and more about this subject, and they're keeping secrets. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

If you meant Jaqen, we have better evidence for him wanting to hatch a dragon, but it's still just a theory, not a fact, and doesn't connect him to Aegon, as many non-targs want dragons, we've been over this already. 

None of the non-targs want to try the ritual at summerhall again. 

And besides Euron/Victarion with the horn, I know of no one who actively wants a dragon for themselves. Tyrion for example doesn't want a dragon for himself. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Why not? Bittersteel is an exile, and Dany is running from the cops, but if a Westerosi lord would take the protection of a baby in secret, it makes sense that they would be kept in Westeros, specifically in said Lord's castle. 

My point is Essos would be the first place people look. 

If a noble son of Rhaegar grows up to look like his father, how are non-Valyrian families suppose to explain this?  

Also he was taken at the start of the war. Rhaegar would have wanted the baby a safe distance from the fighting in Westeros, at least until the war was over (he had no plans of losing). 

Jon lucked out in that regard. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

You don't know that Jaqen 'returns' to Westeros, just that he traveled to Westeros. If any mysterious stranger could mean secret identity, then we have to ask about every other character. 

True, only that he came from Essos

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Whats Bronn's secret identity? Marillion's? Steelshank's? Greenbeard? Anguy? Marwyn? The High Sparrow? it has no end. 

All those people ( who could have alternative identities) already claim to be one person. 

Jaqen meanwhile is known to be a fake identity, same as the alchemist, and the others. 

So who is he? We don't know, because it is unknown.  

Think of it like this: 

There is a person named Bob and Person with no name 

Bob is from florida, the person with no name has no origins or backstory besides that he came from out of state. 

Bob could actual be someone else, but that would be a twist. 

The mysterious stranger could be anyone because we don't know who he is, where he was born, etc.

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

I had a typo, I meant to say that you don't know that Rhaegar is playing to Ellia the same song that made Lyanna cry. 

I doesn't matter if it was the same song or not. Him playing sad music on his harp is reminiscent of the same thing. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

A common one, given that Rhaegar is a musician. 

Yeah, which is why we know he sung a song for Lyanna, the same person he crown the queen of love and beauty. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

There's no reason to assume that Ellia said that. In fact, she doesn't say that in the scene, and she likely isn't thinking about that, she just gave birth, she should be thinking of her child, which she is, that's why she asks if he would write her a song. 

I added that line myself.  

Look at what he brings up right after, "the dragon must have three heads" 

Elia had just given birth to her first son, and Rhaegar says he needs more. She is weak and recuperating. She can't give him what he wants, but the first thing he says is that he needs another. 

He looks away from her, and all but dismisses her question about the song. Instead he goes to the windowsill and strums a sad tune (not for his son), but for Lyanna. I think Elia would notice that. 

So we go back to the line with Pate. 

Pate parallels two characters, the secret prince (Jaqen) and Rhaegar. 

He is infatuated with a fifteen year old maiden. He wants her, and he thinks she is worth a dragon. 

A dragon for the girl, a girl for a dragon. He wants to take her away with him. He wants to run away with her. 

The music is not half so sweet as Rosey to him. 

So he thinks on his first meeting with the alchemist: 

"you won’t do better. Do you want her? Do you love her?" Those are the same words Elia would ask Rhaegar. 

She had just seen him crown another women in her place, why wouldn't she ask this question? Its not as if Rhaegar has a history of adultory. 

He responds: “I am no thief,” 

Note there is no gap in the text from the one line to the next. Rhaegar says he won't take a woman who is already betrothed. 

But like Pate he eventually (after time) concedes: “I suppose I am a thief.” 

He takes the dragon (coin), as Rhaegar takes the girl. They are both killed by this decision. 

 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

It's not what she asked tho. And with this example you abandoned any 'parallel' to Pate, which is wise, as there wasn't any, but still, it means nothing to Jaqen being Aegon. 

No, Pate is both a parallel to Jaqen (the hidden prince) and Rhaegar (fifteen year old maiden for a dragon). 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

I was just showing that the HOBAW's door is not the only time ebony and weirwood are paired in the story, and since the door Dany sees looks nothing like the one in the HOBAW, we have to assume it isn't. 

Personally I think Ebony and Weirwood symbolize the faceless man no matter where they are placed together in the novel. 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

you've said that Arya is tied to Jaqen and to Jon, if Jon and Arya are both heads of the dragon, that means Jaqen is too. That was your argument. 

Yet Arya is tied to many characters, not just those too, so why would Jaqen specifically be the remaining head and not, lets say Gendry, Sansa, Bran, UnCat, The Hound, etc? 

She's connected to him by the coin, same as how she is connected to Jon by needle. 

Also, once again, her relationship is different than that with Gendry or Lady Stoneheart or the Hound. 

Go back to the scene under the heart tree and you will see what I mean. 

 

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Also, thinking Arya is the third head of the dragon just becuase of a really minor tie to a god that's been brought up once and also happens to have three heads, it's also bonkers.  

No, not just that. 

The wormed apples. She is compared to wormed apple's throughout the series. Worms devour the inside of an apple, and she eats those same things throughout. 

Now look at the scene with Alleras and the arrows. He (she) brings it up after the last arrow is loosed: “The dragon has three heads,” 

Three apples were shot, a cored apple, the worm eaten apple, and the last one fell into the water (Alleras missed that last shot). 

All three symbolize the three heads of the dragon. 

Dany herself isn't mention as part of the three, only that she has three heads of the dragon, or that she is related to the three heads.

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm tired of going in circles man, but realize that what you claim has no base, at all. If you want to believe it still, fine by me, but don't go around acting like it's a 100% fact, because it isn't.  

Let me show how I see the whole thing coming together: 

'Arya will be a queen' Ned says in the first book. 

Lyanna made him promise something. 

The girl has her family taken from her. She is given Needle. 

She meets a man with red and white hair, fire and ice. 

He pledges to help her under the heart tree. 

We see this man again in the citadel, looking to birth a dragon. 

We see allusions to the second dance with dragons. Fire will burn Westeros, dragon vs. dragon. 

A black wall of smoke, flames engulfing people. Arya will be there, as well as the man with no name. She will call out to him when that time comes. 

We have the prophecy of the three dragons, and the devourer. The wormed apples, and the arbor gold. 

Arbor gold is lies, the pisswater is the truth. 

YG is introduced to us later, a boy made from a deal: truth traded for lies. 

The mummer's dragon. 

But the prince who was promised, the one Rhaegar needed alive, he has his face smashed in, unrecognizable. 

We have Dany, and Jon. She believes her family to all be dead, but that is not the truth. 

"She would have married him" (She speaks of Aegon VI). 

Look at the show if you will: Jon is foreshadowed to be named Aemon in the books. 

But they called him Aegon. 

The story is there, right beneath the surface.  

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

When TWOW is published I'll come back for my beer.

 

I want my cookie with extra m&ms. 

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