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Who do you think would be the better ruler, Jon or Dany?


Alyn Oakenfist

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think we're using a different definition of authoritarianism. I'm talking about the kind that is about the mentality of the people, and the rulers' abilities to exploit that. Under this definition it is about the populace submitting too much to the authorities in their lives. The North and the free folk do not have this mind-set at all; thus the rulers can't use authoritarian tactics in kind.

 

The free folk don’t kneel.  The Northerners do.  When Robb goes to war, his tenants have no choice but to follow.  The Greatjon got his fingers bitten off for insubordination.

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany and Jon personify authoritarianism mixed with capriciousness and unchecked emotions. This is not good.

Jaehaerys had a stable mental character, and was in control of his emotions. Especially important when you can destroy cities.

Dany oscillates wildly and you don't know what they will do next. Authoritarianism mixed with unpredictability and whims is a terrible combination. Jon is about the same. Both can fly off the handle.

Maegor had done much of the hard work for him.  People knew if they defied him, they would become ash.

Neither Jon nor Dany have had the benefit of a Maegor clearing a path for them.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean yes they both can fly off the handle, but in different ways. Jon often let's his more honorable foolish instincts get the better of him, as can be seen with the Pink letter, while Dany does let her anger and wroth get to her, as can best be seen with the 163 masters. Of the 2 I think Jon is better as Jon is less likely to commit something that would permanently damage his reputation, but more likely to get himself killed

A more experienced leader would have dealt far more brutally with the Great Masters - he would not have left wounded tigers alive.

We look back at great rulers, and judge them as they were in their prime, rather than as they were when very young. Mature Bismarck, Napoleon, Octavian, Frederick the Great would doubtless fare much better than Jon or Dany, but they all screwed up as teenagers and young men.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

A more experienced leader would have dealt far more brutally with the Great Masters - he would not have left wounded tigers alive.

I think a better analogue is that she killed half the lion pride and did fuck all about the other half. Literally anything else would have been better, be it leaving the pride alone (aka not fucking with the masters and just taking their slaves), declawing the lions (taking all their wealth) or just killing them all outright.

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We look back at great rulers, and judge them as they were in their prime, rather than as they were when very young. Mature Bismarck, Napoleon, Octavian, Frederick the Great would doubtless fare much better than Jon or Dany, but they all screwed up as teenagers and young men.

I'm sorry, but Napoleon was far more brilliant in his youth then later on. His younger years years, from Toulon to Jenna were simply brilliant

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5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think a better analogue is that she killed half the lion pride and did fuck all about the other half. Literally anything else would have been better, be it leaving the pride alone (aka not fucking with the masters and just taking their slaves), declawing the lions (taking all their wealth) or just killing them all outright.

I'm sorry, but Napoleon was far more brilliant in his youth then later on. His younger years years, from Toulon to Jenna were simply brilliant

Take their slaves, and you make implacable enemies of them.  Her mistake was failing to understand that.  In their eyes, she has robbed them of their property, and violated their human rights. That’s why they have to go. 

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In the end I don't think anyone so much wants Targaryen rule as to oust the Lannisters.   Westeros (for the majority of people) just wants what all people want, freedom, prosperity and peace.  Jon's secret identity shouldn't matter at all.   The Targs only ruled for 300 years filled with as much bad as good for the country overall.  Take bloodline as a prerequisite off the board.  What does matter is might.  Dany's got dragons and that should trump all in this setting.  She wants to rule, too, which could be a factor in the continued monarchy rule.  While Jon isn't likely to be fooled by the nobles who do little beyond further their own concerns, he doesn't want to rule.  That said I think either would be an effective beginning to whatever rule comes next for Westeros, but someone like Tyrion who knows what jerks these nobles are, is more qualified to actually run the place on a daily basis.   Jon and Dany concern themselves with big issues while Tyrion actually works in the minutia.  A smart guy like Tyrion with a solid supportive council of forward and fair-minded thinkers (Asha, Davos, Sam) would be best in the long run.  

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14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

o who do you think would be better on the Iron Throne, Jon or Dany? Who would bring more prosperity save more lives and keep the peace better?

Daenerys will be the better ruler.  It's not even close.  Jon was a total fuck up at the wall.

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17 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Aegon's is going to suffer a mild case of mortality via dragonfire

There's some hints that he dies fighting the Others. Lots of Stark symbols around him and when fighting the Stonemen who have lots in common with the wights, he "freezes".

Aegon wants adventure and fighting. Whether he gets KL or not, he'll be off to fight the Others as soon as he hears about them. Not the type to sit on a boring old throne all day.

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17 hours ago, broken one said:

oh, I think she would :blush:

you can always make a theatre for nobility and make agreement on division of competences or even agree each decision. roman consuls could make it somehow.

:ack:

Some Jon/Dany ruling in the end thing would be the most boring outcome after I've hit the Pepto.

She can and it's not a bad idea, but the girl who was abused by her brother and then sold into slavery to her husband and rises to be a power in her own right ain't doing that. And there's that last ADWD chapter where it looks like she's about to break out the steel folding chair on a whole lot of folks. We've been through a lot that makes it clear that this possibility just isn't her style.

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The better ruler for the future is Dany.  She can speak a lot of languages and will have learned a lot about ruling by the time she comes to Westeros.  Humanity will have to join forces to combat the existential threat of winter and white walkers.  She will be prepared to do just that. 

Winter and the constant wars going on in Westeros will kill most of the population.  They need a strong leader to rebuild at the end of the Long Night.  That ruler should be Dany.  Prosperity is not going to be possible because civilization will collapse but Dany will build the beginnings of a new empire of the dawn.  An empire is made up of many groups of people, cultures, and languages. 

 

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

:ack:

Some Jon/Dany ruling in the end thing would be the most boring outcome after I've hit the Pepto.

She can and it's not a bad idea, but the girl who was abused by her brother and then sold into slavery to her husband and rises to be a power in her own right ain't doing that. And there's that last ADWD chapter where it looks like she's about to break out the steel folding chair on a whole lot of folks. We've been through a lot that makes it clear that this possibility just isn't her style.

I know it would be boring, moreover I am sure it wont happen (the final will probably be pointless), I am just dreaming of happy happy ending u see. a fairytale

final chapter of adwd does not change my impression dany would be a good ruler. I mean I still cannot see the crazy mad daenerys so many people talk about

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Ruling the Seven Kingdoms would probably not be a happy ending for either.  In order to win the game of thrones, you seem to require the morals of a sociopath.  I think if one likes a character, one wants them to do better than just win the game.

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16 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

@Alyn Oakenfist, please stop posting provacative threads to gather replies or views or content count. I apologize if it wasn't the case. You really post great topics, but a lot of what if threads and a lot of Starks vs Targs or Jon vs Dany mars Ur rep.

 

Nah mate, honestly it's just kinda my thing as I'm also pretty passionate about alternate history and I also think that compressions between characters are the best way to highlight the pros and cons of said characters.

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I would choose Daenerys Targaryen as my ruler.  I would do so without hesitation.  Her skills at leading are second to none.  She successfully led her Khalasar through the desert and into safety.  She broke a silly tradition and became the first woman to lead her own khalasar.  

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19 hours ago, broken one said:

I know it would be boring, moreover I am sure it wont happen (the final will probably be pointless), I am just dreaming of happy happy ending u see. a fairytale

final chapter of adwd does not change my impression dany would be a good ruler. I mean I still cannot see the crazy mad daenerys so many people talk about

Oh, I didn't mean to come across as imply that. I'm not sure what kind of ruler she'll be beyond she's not one for strategy, details and infrastructure. When most of the options for rulers are teenagers or older people going through lots of changes, it's tough to predict now.

Madness will be a question raised for any out in the open Targ cause that's a thing, but I don't think we'll get full-on Mad Dany or mad anyone. Already been there with Aerys and characters who are borderline are much more interesting than the full-on insane. As the characters are going to be facing an apocalypse, I'm guessing most will be more than a bit off due to stress.

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