Improving the North

[CamiloRP]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:22 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

Yes but you could find out. Sansa's only 11 at the start of the story. Ned has plenty of time (not to mention the years before) to find out more about Joffrey before agreeing to a betrothal. Its not unreasonable to wait to get to know and find out more about your potential son-in-law before you agree to hand over your 11 year old daughter to him.

The thing is, before he started torturing Sansa, his sadism wasn't well known, there was the kitten incident and how he bullied Tommen, the first thing is really specific and I wouldn't put much stock in finding out, and the second one is something most people would disregard as it being normal for an older brother.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

The thing is, before he started torturing Sansa, his sadism wasn't well known, there was the kitten incident and how he bullied Tommen, the first thing is really specific and I wouldn't put much stock in finding out, and the second one is something most people would disregard as it being normal for an older brother.

What about the time where Joffrey and Robb are in the yard training? That's wide open for everybody to see.

[Lady_Qohor]

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The thing is, before he started torturing Sansa, his sadism wasn't well known, there was the kitten incident and how he bullied Tommen, the first thing is really specific and I wouldn't put much stock in finding out, and the second one is something most people would disregard as it being normal for an older brother.

Yeah but Ned doesn't even try to find out. I don't think he even has one conversation with the boy he's planning to hand over his 11 year old daughter too.

This isn't just about being a semi-competent father. There is real value to the North in Ned taking the time to find out who he is selling his children to and what he is getting in return. Joffrey might be gay or asexual in which case there is lower chance of heirs. He might be dying or a moron who's likely to lose the throne. Or he might be a cruel, sadistic psychopath.

Sansa's only 11, there is no rush in agreeing a betrothal. Robert is keen anyway, so there is no reason why Ned shouldn't be able to take a few months or even a few years to get to know Joffrey and find out if Joff/Sansa would be a good marriage alliance. As Hand, Ned should be getting to know the Crown Prince anyway.

As @Jaenara Belarys indicated, Joffrey doesn't appear to be able to hold up the facade of charming prince for long at Winterfell. There's no way he's be able to do it for several months while Ned was actually paying attention.

[Jaenara Belarys]

7 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Yeah but Ned doesn't even try to find out. I don't think he even has one conversation with the boy he's planning to hand over his 11 year old daughter too.

 

Yep.

7 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

This isn't just about being a semi-competent father. There is real value to the North in Ned taking the time to find out who he is selling his children to and what he is getting in return. Joffrey might be gay or asexual in which case there is lower chance of heirs. He might be dying or a moron who's likely to lose the throne. Or he might be a cruel, sadistic psychopath.

 

Exactly! The future heirs to the Iron Throne, if Joffrey had kids with Sansa (Thank God he didn't), would be half Stark and probably inclined to tilt towards the North. There's immense value in that.

 

7 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Sansa's only 11, there is no rush in agreeing a betrothal. Robert is keen anyway, so there is no reason why Ned shouldn't be able to take a few months or even a few years to get to know Joffrey and find out if Joff/Sansa would be a good marriage alliance. As Hand, Ned should be getting to know the Crown Prince anyway.

 

Yep. He should've waited rather than just do "bim bim Sansa you're betrothed to The Gallant Sadistic Prince".

7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

and the second one is something most people would disregard as it being normal for an older brother.

Look, I have three older siblings, and I don't think they would cut apart my pet deer ( if I had one, which I don't) for clothing. 

 

 

[CamiloRP]

23 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What about the time where Joffrey and Robb are in the yard training? That's wide open for everybody to see.

What did he prove there? he's cocky, I assume most nobleborn are, he's a piece of shit, assume most nobleborn are, still no signs of him being a psycho. Yeah, he wants to train with live steel, that only makes him reckless, not a psycho.

[CamiloRP]

18 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Yeah but Ned doesn't even try to find out. I don't think he even has one conversation with the boy he's planning to hand over his 11 year old daughter too.

This isn't just about being a semi-competent father. There is real value to the North in Ned taking the time to find out who he is selling his children to and what he is getting in return. Joffrey might be gay or asexual in which case there is lower chance of heirs. He might be dying or a moron who's likely to lose the throne. Or he might be a cruel, sadistic psychopath.

Sansa's only 11, there is no rush in agreeing a betrothal. Robert is keen anyway, so there is no reason why Ned shouldn't be able to take a few months or even a few years to get to know Joffrey and find out if Joff/Sansa would be a good marriage alliance. As Hand, Ned should be getting to know the Crown Prince anyway.

As @Jaenara Belarys indicated, Joffrey doesn't appear to be able to hold up the facade of charming prince for long at Winterfell. There's no way he's be able to do it for several months while Ned was actually paying attention.

I don't disagree with you, Ned should've done more, But I doubt he would've found anything worth noting besides him being a dick.

[Jaenara Belarys]

8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't disagree with you, Ned should've done more, But I doubt he would've found anything worth noting besides him being a dick.

The deer? Maybe ask Tyrion or Jaime or even Cersei? You know what Robert thinks of him. Ask him a bit more, I'm sure you'll find out about that poor damn kitchen cat.

10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

What did he prove there? he's cocky, I assume most nobleborn are, he's a piece of shit, assume most nobleborn are, still no signs of him being a psycho. Yeah, he wants to train with live steel, that only makes him reckless, not a psycho.

He's also insulting the person that would've eventually been his Warden of the North. 

[CamiloRP]

18 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Look, I have three older siblings, and I don't think they would cut apart my pet deer ( if I had one, which I don't) for clothing. 

for all we know, that isn't common knowledge, it's only mentioned once, by Tommen, not even Robert mentions it when he tells Ned about Joff

[Jaenara Belarys]

You are effectively excusing Joffrey's butchering of Tommen's pet deer by saying that every older sibling bullies the younger sibling. Normal people do not cut apart pet deer or kitchen cats!

 

 

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The deer?

Before you hurry me into replying to something I'm already replying to, you still haven't answered how is Tyrion different from a real world dude who kills his ex.

 

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Maybe ask Tyrion or Jaime or even Cersei?

Ned wouldn't trust anything they have to say to him, so there's no point in that, and likely they won't tell him anything either.

 

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You know what Robert thinks of him.

He doesn't until way after accepting the betrothal

 

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He's also insulting the person that would've eventually been his Warden of the North. 

He's a kid, Robb is taunting his future king too, it means nothing.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

you still haven't answered how is Tyrion different from a real world dude who kills his ex.

Because this has so much to do with the present topic.

1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

Ned wouldn't trust anything they have to say to him, so there's no point in that, and likely they won't tell him anything either.

 

He might not trust them, but at least it's something. Yes, sure, suggesting he ask Jaime or Cersei was foolish on my part, but at least ask Tyrion. 

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

He doesn't until way after accepting the betrothal

 

Great, now Ned knows. Why not break off the betrothal? I'm pretty sure Robert would be ticked off, but if you explain to him "Look. Your son is a creep, I'm not marrying my daughter to him" I'm pretty sure he'd understand after a bit. 

 

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You are effectively excusing Joffrey's butchering of Tommen's pet deer by saying that every older sibling bullies the younger sibling. Normal people do not cut apart pet deer or kitchen cats!

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying if we are writing 'what if' scenarios then we have to embrace them. Marrying Sansa to Joffrey is the right move if you don't know he's a psycho, and if you where the GOTN you wouldn't know he's a psycho, so a marriage between both of them is the right move, as far as you know. You can't use knowledge the characters in your position wouldn't have, because then it's too easy, and your 'improving the North' plan could look something like this:

'I invent the steam engine and start building trains and steamboats for the North, with my new factories I increase my economic power as well, then I send a covert force of a thousand northern soldiers to Essos, wait till everyone leaves Dany and while she's in the pyre I slaughter the remaining weak Dothraki, when she emerges I kill her too and go back to the North with three dragons. I send Bran NOTW and command him to use his telepathic powers to aid the powers of the North."

or

"I command each of my vassals to come greet the king, each should also bring about half their forces, when Robert arrives, I take him to Lyanna's tomb and tell her Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are the children of Jaime and Cersei, the Lannister forces can do nothing, because I ahve much more men."

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Because this has so much to do with the present topic.

It has, you go around this forum pressing people to reply to your posts, oh how many times have I seen you comment "I'm waiting..." or some bullshit like that, and you where doing it to me, while I was already replying to that but had to stop because of a work emergency. Yet you fail to reply to most things people ask of you, because mostly you don'thave arguments. It's okay to admit you where wrong, but excusing yourself in this manner makes you look... well, I rather not say.

 

7 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He might not trust them, but at least it's something.

No it's not, he gains nothing from asking them, as he will not trust anything they say and it would make him look real bad in front of them. If your daughter shows up with a new partner, you won't call their partner's parents to ask them what they think of their child, because most parent would only say good things and it also would make you look real bad, and that is excluding the fact that Ned thinks the Lannisters are utter shit.

 

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Yes, sure, suggesting he ask Jaime or Cersei was foolish on my part, but at least ask Tyrion. 

Why? he trusts Tyrion as much as he trusts Cersei.

 

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Great, now Ned knows. Why not break off the betrothal? I'm pretty sure Robert would be ticked off, but if you explain to him "Look. Your son is a creep, I'm not marrying my daughter to him" I'm pretty sure he'd understand after a bit. 

He tried to break it not so long after that, and yes, he should've. But I was never talking about Ned, I was talking about what I would do as GOTN, and since I wouldn't know Joff to be a psycho, then marrying Sansa to him is a greta thing to do.

[Leonardo]

On 4/17/2021 at 6:43 AM, Lady_Qohor said:

That's a good point. Ned is probably the most powerful Stark since Cregan Stark during the hour of the wolf. It's a shame he was too honourable to use those connections to the North's advantage. 

BTW do we know if Cregan ever leveraged his moment in the sun for the North's advantage? 

I mean he kind of does in regards to becoming the most badass lord in the seven kingdoms lol, what he did was an immense flex. They also were supposed to get a targ marriage of course, but I am also curious as to whether Cregan got anything for his service. I think Ned did a bit and probably gat tax favours, but tbh considering their role in both RR and GJ wars they probably should have been gifted seats and such like what happened for lannister allies post RR. I think a lot of it has to do with Jon Snow; Ned didn't want anything or need anything and he just wanted the north to be left the frack alone and not have questions pried into about Jon. I mean imagine if anyone like Varys or any of the real schemers realized there was actually a story there; even as a Dayne bastard or whatever people like to imagine aside from R+L, it's all biting info for someone who is intensely private by nature.

[Lady_Qohor]

4 hours ago, Leonardo said:

I mean he kind of does in regards to becoming the most badass lord in the seven kingdoms lol, what he did was an immense flex. They also were supposed to get a targ marriage of course, but I am also curious as to whether Cregan got anything for his service. I think Ned did a bit and probably gat tax favours, but tbh considering their role in both RR and GJ wars they probably should have been gifted seats and such like what happened for lannister allies post RR. I think a lot of it has to do with Jon Snow; Ned didn't want anything or need anything and he just wanted the north to be left the frack alone and not have questions pried into about Jon. I mean imagine if anyone like Varys or any of the real schemers realized there was actually a story there; even as a Dayne bastard or whatever people like to imagine aside from R+L, it's all biting info for someone who is intensely private by nature.

That makes a lot of sense. Good analysis. 

I suppose this is just a reminder that feudalism is a terrible system. Ona personal level, I understand Ned wanting to keep his head down to protect Jon but the North should not be neglected for the sake of one boy. Its a shame that Ned was never in a position where he could hand over the reigns of the North to somebody who could properly fight to improve it. The Stark family would also have been happier if they had never gotten involved in politics. 

[Leonardo]

There are some big obvious ones;

 

glass gardens, EVERYWHERE. Timber shipments to Braavos, nao(they might happen but there seems to be no evidence). Expansion of luxury goods. I know they don't do much regionally for taxes but it'd be a nice bump for smaller lords. 

 

We know Ned had some of these plans, like resettling the gift, as Jon has the same plans. But considering how bad winters are, shouldn't they be storing most of their harvested grain? I mean 5 year winters being pretty normal, you'd think they'd be storing near everything.
 

Then again, while Ned was far from a dummy, he wasn't some ambitious genius or anything. Someone like Tyrion could do wonders for the North in terms of improvements. Then again Tyrion could probably help out just about anywhere outside of women's hearts.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/20/2021 at 9:10 AM, CamiloRP said:

It has, you go around this forum pressing people to reply to your posts, oh how many times have I seen you comment "I'm waiting..." or some bullshit like that, and you where doing it to me, while I was already replying to that but had to stop because of a work emergency. Yet you fail to reply to most things people ask of you, because mostly you don'thave arguments. It's okay to admit you where wrong, but excusing yourself in this manner makes you look... well, I rather not say.

 

The last time I said "I'm waiting" was last month. And how am I supposed to know you have a "work emergency"? I don't have a glass candle. 

[CamiloRP]

40 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The last time I said "I'm waiting" was last month. And how am I supposed to know you have a "work emergency"? I don't have a glass candle. 

I didn't ask you to know, just to stop behaving like people owe you explanations and responses only to ignore that sentiment yourself.

[Jaenara Belarys]

8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I didn't ask you to know, just to stop behaving like people owe you explanations and responses only to ignore that sentiment yourself.

Fine then. Please see my suggestions for the North on the first page, I want a critique.

[Anthony Appleyard]

Domesticated mammoths. Canon text in WoIaF shows that The North has mammoths. A domesticated mammoth ridden by a mahout (or whatever is the Westerosi word) would be useful for travel in deep snow, and by swinging its head with its long curved tusks to brush deep snow aside, plus its sense of smell as good as a hound's, it could find people lost in deep snow.