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Alyn Oakenfist

Why do people believe Roose killed Domeric?

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Not that Roose couldn't do it, he's a full blown psycho with probably minimal objections to kinslaying, but really Domeric was the perfect heir in that case. Roose had ambitions to take the North for a long time, that much is clear. For that Domeric was perfect, or at least a lot better then Ramsay. He was clearly much more restrained, and unlike Ramsay whose hobbies are rape, torture and murder, Domeric's seem to have been music, history and riding, not to mention being tied by blood to at least 2 noble houses. All in all, Domeric was 10 times a better heir then Ramsay both for the Dreadfort and for the North given Roose's ambitions. So why then do some people believe Roose killed him?

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Wow, I have not known on the belief. Maybe they think it's because Roose is evil and was fed up with Domeric goodness, smelling flowers and dancing around a tree. He decided his another son is more fun, they can hunt people together etc.

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I've yet to hear someone who believes it.

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Roose had ambitions to take the North for a long time, that much is clear

Did he tho?? It seems to me that the chance appeared and he didn't miss it.

Why didn't he backstabbed Ned during the Robellion??

We're told that Ramsay offed him, there is really no reason to believe otherwise.

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Just now, frenin said:

We're told that Ramsay offed him, there is really no reason to believe otherwise.

I know, yet I've read some older threads debating it quite a lot

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Why would Roose kill off his only heir?  This kid was given the absolute best of everything Roose could offer a lordling and there is evidence that Domeric was loved, which isn't something anyone can say about Roose.  I think Roose is perfectly capable of kinslaying, but there appears to be no concrete corroboration that he did while there is a great deal of reasonable argument supporting Ramsay's role in Domeric's death.  Ramsay had something to gain.  

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I don't believe Roose killed him, but I know why some people do:

the worst argument I heard is tied to the Bolt-on theory, in which he kills him because he can take Ramsay's skin later, as their eyes match.

the best argument I hear is that he killed him because he disobeyed him and went to find Ramsay (tho this makes little sense, as he would have killed Ramsay many times over if he was so susceptible)

Another possible theory is that he's playing the Vladimir Harkoonen game: that is, have Ramsay ruin everything, have everyone hate him and everyone love Roose when he gets rid of him.

 

I don't lend too much credence to any of these theories, but I still doubt Ramsay killed him, as poison doesn't seem like something he'd do.

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Another possible theory is that he's playing the Vladimir Harkoonen game: that is, have Ramsay ruin everything, have everyone hate him and everyone love Roose when he gets rid of him.

That's some 16D chess right there based on so many presumptions it's preposterous. Basically Roose must have had the Wot5k and the aftermath perfectly mapped out for that to be the case.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't lend too much credence to any of these theories, but I still doubt Ramsay killed him, as poison doesn't seem like something he'd do.

That's a possibility thought the obvious suspect in that case is Ramsay's mom. Also Ramsay is perfectly capable of guile and trickery, so him poisoning Domeric is perfectly possible, though it is true it's not his modus operandi

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24 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's some 16D chess right there based on so many presumptions it's preposterous. Basically Roose must have had the Wot5k and the aftermath perfectly mapped out for that to be the case.

Yep

 

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That's a possibility thought the obvious suspect in that case is Ramsay's mom. Also Ramsay is perfectly capable of guile and trickery, so him poisoning Domeric is perfectly possible, though it is true it's not his modus operandi

Yeah, Ramsay could've definitely have done it, after all he had many reasons to do it covertly, I just think that is not as likely. I like the idea of his mom having done it.

 

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7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I know, yet I've read some older threads debating it quite a lot

People also think he’s a vampire for whatever reason (I really hope they’re wrong about that).

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5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's some 16D chess right there

Although it's actually quite similar to a theory of how the GC hoped to exploit Viserys invading with the Dothraki. I think a Doylist explanation works better for that.

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I don't think Roose killed Domeric, it was Ramsey.  Roose is not evil, he's ambitious and cautious more than loyal and honourable. He served Robb well, but his defeat by Tywin in GoT checked his eagerness to put himself in harms way and from there he made choices that leaned more on self preservation and reduced risk to his house.  I'm sure he was invested in Domeric as his heir, but Roose is a player, not a pawn.  Ramsay is a useful piece for Roose and despite Domeric dying, Roose is using the best piece left on the board for him and as someone stated above, perhaps his eventual plan is to dispose of Ramsay to make himself look better.  

I think in the end, we're seeing that Ramsay too is a player and one that has been highly underestimated. Stannis seems likely to win the upcoming battle outside of Winterfell, but ultimately and strongly foreshadowed by Theon's inner thoughts, Ramsay is out there and I think may mop up Stannis once he's defeated the Frey's. How far Ramsay goes vs. Roose is yet to be determined, but I can't help but be influenced someone by the show's version of things in that after all is said and done, Ramsay may hold Winterfell amongst the current players in the North.

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1 hour ago, Mad King Bolton said:

Roose is not evil

Well, he is a rapist who allows his son to torture, rape and hunt women for sport, he might not be as bad as Ramsay, few are, but he's still 'evil' (if you can apply that term to a person)

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I understand what you mean, I just say it in terms of this world.  He's a lord that observes first night law which by their rules wouldn't make him a rapist (sure as heck by ours).  Condoning evil actions from your son doesn't make him evil either (Ramsay is absolutely psychotic).  I just see Roose as an ice cold player who manipulates pieces, takes advantage of every opportunity, and has gotten pretty far because of it. He may be evil, he's disgusting in every sense, but I think he's toeing the line while letting Ramsay do the most heinous actions that in turn benefits himself. Perhaps I'm wrong on my definition of evil though :)

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49 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I understand what you mean, I just say it in terms of this world.  He's a lord that observes first night law which by their rules wouldn't make him a rapist (sure as heck by ours).

First night was illegal when he did it and we hear northernt lords (I believe it was Glover) call the deed a rape

 

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Condoning evil actions from your son doesn't make him evil either (Ramsay is absolutely psychotic).  

It absolutely does, allowing a serial killer who rapes and hunts women for sport when you could stop him without needing to move a muscle is 'evil'

 

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I just see Roose as an ice cold player who manipulates pieces, takes advantage of every opportunity, and has gotten pretty far because of it. He may be evil, he's disgusting in every sense, but I think he's toeing the line while letting Ramsay do the most heinous actions that in turn benefits himself. Perhaps I'm wrong on my definition of evil though :)

I don't think there is a true definition of evil, and it's hard to apply the term to a person.

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I believe it because it makes a better story than Ramsay being the killer.

As for why Roose killed him, Domeric was not Bolton enough for Roose's tastes.

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I think the only reason people doubt that Ramsay was the killer is that the way Domeric was killed seems so at odds with his personality. He's very direct and violent. Not the kind of person who would engage in a calculated scheme to poison someone deliberately and certainly not with a poison which takes days to finally kill the victim. If it wasn't Ramsay I think either the original Reek or Ramsay's mother may have been behind it. Both may have been around when Ramsay and Domeric met and had every reason to believe removing Domeric would improve their own position. Not Roose though. The risks involved with removing Domeric utterly outweigh any possible misgivings he might have had about his personality and nature. It's forced him to rely on Ramsay who's basically uncontrollable and has limited capacity for subtlety.

Why do people think it? Given how horrible a person Roose can seem and how out of character the death of Domeric seems for Ramsay perhaps some just link the two and go for it.

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9 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I understand what you mean, I just say it in terms of this world.  He's a lord that observes first night law which by their rules wouldn't make him a rapist (sure as heck by ours).

Actually it does. In F&B we're told specifically that Jaehaerys's law considered the first night as rape to be punished as such (gelding or the Wall). We have no reason to suspect that ever changed, and Roose tells us as much when he talks about how he doesn't respect the law due to it's inception

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Fair.  Regardless, killing Domeric still suits Ramsay more than Roose.  Roose's agenda profits having a good heir in Domeric as that has its uses or a nasty one in Ramsay as it also has its uses.  Was not defending Roose or what a scumbag he is, it's not important, I honestly don't think he gives a shit who his heir is in the end as long as he gets what he wants.  He's not a legacy man in the vein of Tywin. Interesting topic and discussion though, as are so many of these threads.

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