OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, DMC said: This type of question still suggests you're conflating "communism" with authoritarianism. If a communist system was instituted by elected representatives, then the only thing people have to do to change the system back would be to elect different representatives. This question is like asking would capitalists be willing to relinquish power if Congress passed socialized medicine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does seem to me that capitalist did in many case learn to live with "socialized medicine" and were willing to live with critiques of private healthcare. It also seems to me that many communist weren't so tolerant of criticisms of their policies. Sure I get that "communism" is conceptually distinct from authoritarianism, yet it seems that we sure did see a lot of communist regimes go pretty authoritarian, excepting tribal nations of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rippounet said: How have humans made production decisions since the dawn of time? We've only had modern states and modern markets for a few centuries, and then, not everywhere. It seems to me you're the one who has trouble imagining something only slightly different from the currently dominating socio-economic system, even though there have been bazillions examples of successful alternatives. You keep using modern economic language (debt, investment, benefit... etc) as if that was the language everyone should use, when communism is precisely defined in opposition to many of those concepts. Your argument might work if we are talking about just producing a few commodities. But, what about a society that makes thousands of different type of commodities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: In normal times. We may be about to step into some unpredictable. The only way in which this hypothetical is in any way possible is if we abolished the constitution. Which, I suppose, is possible - but then whatever "state governments" do or don't do is decidedly up in the air anyway. 12 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does seem to me that capitalist did in many case learn to live with "socialized medicine" and were willing to live with critiques of private healthcare. I mean, I guess in many countries. It's still obviously hardened capitalists in the guise of the insurance and drug industries that continue to do everything they can to block any efforts towards universal healthcare in this country. As for communist regimes not being tolerant of criticisms of their policies, again you're simply ignoring the fact that the causal factor here is those regimes adopted an authoritarian political system. I'm not sure if this discussion is going in circles, running in place, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, DMC said: I mean, I guess in many countries. It's still obviously hardened capitalists in the guise of the insurance and drug industries that continue to do everything they can to block any efforts towards universal healthcare in this country. As for communist regimes not being tolerant of criticisms of their policies, again you're simply ignoring the fact that the causal factor here is those regimes adopted an authoritarian political system. I'm not sure if this discussion is going in circles, running in place, or both. Capitalist are snakes. But, at least we understand they are snakes, whereas many a communist was a snake, but pretended they "oh cared so much". It seems to me that many in the communist managerial elite often acted in their own interest at the expense of workers. Not saying this is particularly inevitable, but lets at least be aware of the issue. As to the last part, perhaps. Maybe there is no causal mechanism between command economies and authoritarianism. I'm well aware that correlation is not causation. Maybe there were other causal reasons. But, I think if communist want to be taken seriously, they do need to acknowledge these past problems and how they will not go down that route. Anyway, how well versed are you in Marxist legal theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: Your argument might work if we are talking about just producing a few commodities. But, what about a society that makes thousands of different type of commodities? Well, way I see it, the plan is precisely to produce a lot less commodities, and to favor local, green, production, whenever possible. Again, growth is the problem here, or at least, consumerism. There are a few sectors where decisions would have to be made at the national level (at least in the next decades or so), but ironically those are sectors that are already successfully managed by the state in many European countries: healthcare, higher education, justice... Possibly agriculture and energy. But "non-essential" production? Local cooperatives can take care of most of it imho. Or even local corporations (SMEs), since, as I said, markets wouldn't be eliminated altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said: It seems to me that many in the communist managerial elite often acted in their own interest at the expense of workers. Not saying this is particularly inevitable, but lets at least be aware of the issue. I don't think most anybody, here at least, would argue that virtually every 20th century communist regime exhibited that characteristic. 3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: Anyway, how well versed are you in Marxist legal theory? Minimally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, DMC said: Minimally. Bummer. I was going to ask you some questions. Now, I'll will have to find out for myself. That involves work, which I was trying to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Rippounet said: Well, way I see it, the plan is precisely to produce a lot less commodities, and to favor local, green, production, whenever possible. Again, growth is the problem here, or at least, consumerism. I think you mean a lot less of certain kinds of commodities. Those that mainly contribute to global climate change. Not the ones that have nothing to do with global climate change. 2 minutes ago, Rippounet said: There are a few sectors where decisions would have to be made at the national level (at least in the next decades or so), but ironically those are sectors that are already successfully managed by the state in many European countries: healthcare, higher education, justice... Possibly agriculture and energy. At this juncture, I think governments will have to borrow massively to fight climate change. Both to fund investment research and to make investments to replace carbon based capital stock. I think we will pretty much have to be a on "war" footing for awhile. 7 minutes ago, Rippounet said: But "non-essential" production? Local cooperatives can take care of most of it imho. Or even local corporations (SMEs), since, as I said, markets wouldn't be eliminated altogether. I have less objection to this kind of arrangement, than a central planning board deciding, how many tubes of toothpaste get made, how many ears of corn get made, what kind of books get published, how many cans of coke get made, etc., etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: Bummer. I was going to ask you some questions. Now, I'll will have to find out for myself. That involves work, which I was trying to avoid. Well feel free to give it a shot, but yeah I probably won't know. Ripp might though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Just now, DMC said: Well feel free to give it a shot, but yeah I probably won't know. Ripp might though. What are their attitudes towards constitutional legal systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I think you mean a lot less of certain kinds of commodities. Those that mainly contribute to global climate change. Not the ones that have nothing to do with global climate change. Indeed. Actually, the key difference might be between goods and services. Producing goods almost always leaves a significant environmental footprint. Many services otoh can be produced with barely any footprint. It's why i'm not sure our standard of living needs to be reduced that much. We'd have less stuff, but otoh there's potentially be an infinite number of "green" services, including a lot of care. 13 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I have less objection to this kind of arrangement, than a central planning board deciding, how many tubes of toothpaste get made, how many ears of corn get made, what kind of books get published, how many cans of coke get made, etc., etc. Ain't nobody got time for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 31 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: What are their attitudes towards constitutional legal systems? My understanding is they retain the traditional Marxist critique of Hegel in that constitutions/laws are merely another facet of the superstructure expressing the dominant class/economic system of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 41 minutes ago, Rippounet said: It's why i'm not sure our standard of living needs to be reduced that much. We'd have less stuff, but otoh there's potentially be an infinite number of "green" services, including a lot of care. Agreed. What do humans actually need in order to live secure, healthy, fulfilling lives? Reliable, decent quality food. Comfortable shelter. Guaranteed access to medical care. Free time. Art, music, culture, crafts, sport, outdoor recreation. A rich and varied social network. Arguably only the first three require large-scale material production, and I think those needs can be met with vastly less material production than we currently have. Will human wellbeing really decrease if we never produce another mega-yacht or poop emoji pool float (in multiple varieties even!)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Liffguard said: Will human wellbeing really decrease if we never produce another mega-yacht or poop emoji pool float (in multiple varieties even!)? You will have to pry my poop emoji pool float from my cold dead hands!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does seem to me that capitalist did in many case learn to live with "socialized medicine" and were willing to live with critiques of private healthcare. It also seems to me that many communist weren't so tolerant of criticisms of their policies. Sure I get that "communism" is conceptually distinct from authoritarianism, yet it seems that we sure did see a lot of communist regimes go pretty authoritarian, excepting tribal nations of course. We also saw in south america for example, allot of countries "go" authoritarian to implement a certain economic system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 I don’t understand how decisions are made about what ‘commodities’ are produced? Who decides that and what is it based on? What happens if there is demand for goods that aren’t being produced? What about black markets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 hours ago, DMC said: My understanding is they retain the traditional Marxist critique of Hegel in that constitutions/laws are merely another facet of the superstructure expressing the dominant class/economic system of society. So how do they feel about certain limitations on government. Are limitations on the government's ability to conduct search & seizures, jailing people, and restricting speech just a bunch of bourgeois bullshit, in their view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 This is why we need FTL travel. So we can get to pre-FTL civilizations on other planets and observe how they run things, and see what seems to work the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said: We also saw in south america for example, allot of countries "go" authoritarian to implement a certain economic system Well I'm certainly no fan of enforcing libertarian economics at the point of a pistol. I won't make apologies for the likes of Pinochet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 31 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: So how do they feel about certain limitations on government. Are limitations on the government's ability to conduct search & seizures, jailing people, and restricting speech just a bunch of bourgeois bullshit, in their view? I do not know their stance on individual liberties. Gonna have to look that one up yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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