Who would have Ned Stark chosen to be Lord of Queenscrown and of the lands of the New Gift? And to whom would that lord swear fealty?

[Alex13]

It has been speculated/said, that Ned intended to settle the New Gift and name a lord in charge of the land and give him Queenscrown. Who could have Ned chosen as the lord? Would he have named one of his true born sons and create another branch of House Stark? Would have have named the son of another house? Or could he have given the lands to Jon?

Also, i have read that if Ned did that, he would have intended to have the lord swear fealty to the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Could that have been possible and if yes, how would that work and why would the lord of Queenscrown be a vassal of the Night's Watch, instead of a vassal to the Umber's or the Stark's? Or could the house be a vassal to the Umber's, Karstark's or the Stark's, but agree to send a percentage of their crops to the Night's Watch?

I am asking, because from what i can tell, the New Gift is rather fertile and it is also big, so that means that the lord in charge of that could possibly raise 2000-4000 troops, whose lord is a vassal of the Night's Watch, instead of the Umber's or Stark's. And how would the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, deal with his vassal, if he would choose to stop sending food and troops to the Wall? Would he request that the Stark's and/or the crown help them bring their vassal back in line? And would the lords of the North agree with having a house capable to raising troops, loyal to the Night's Watch?

[The Young Maester]

Ned would’ve probably given it to one of his sons. It would be useless to put so much money and manpower into a grand development of land just to give it to someone who isn’t of neds blood. 

I don’t think this lord would swear fealty to the nights watch. More like swear a vow of feeding and arming the nightswatch. Having him swear fealty to winterfell will just slowly integrate those lands into the north, till the point that the lord of the gift won’t want to feed the nightswatch anymore.

Those speculated 2k-4K troops will just be armed levies which will be useless in war. It’s possible that the gift will contain only 100 men at arms. Which will be for patrolling and policing the land. Any other soldiers will likely live south of the gift with the wealthier lords.

[CamiloRP]

Jon thinks that Ned would have said lords pay taxes to the Night's Watch instead of Winterfell, yet that would involve a massive coast for WF, so I assume that said lords would also have to pay to Winterfell the 'loan' gradually.

Possible Lords include: Jon, Bran, Rickon and whomever marries Arya, with some other possible lords being either second sons of lords Ned's wants to appease or considers great allies and maybe some non-noble families loyal to Ned, like the Mollens or the Cassels.

I don't know if the armies of these lands would be counted as armies of The North tho, I mean, if they wanted they could join them in battle, they swore no vow, but they are not technically a part of The North.

[McGuv19]

I think it would have gone to a son, and the new lord(s) of the gift would be pledged to support the NW with food etc, since the main problem is the NW dont have enough people to properly use the land of the gift. 
 

Shame Ned’s plans never got realised since it would have gone quite a long way in strengthening the NW against the Others and wildlings.

[Bernie Mac]

Ned had never broached the subject with Robert or Jon Arryn when they were alive. He just had the longest summer in a century(the time to rebuild and repopulate in Summer, not Winter), had great relations with both the King and the Hand, was actually Hand himself. He never did anything about it.

 

I think his plans were never really serious. Pipe dream is the wrong word for it, because I think it was more than attainable, but it does not seem like it was something he was that invested in.

[CamiloRP]

42 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned had never broached the subject with Robert or Jon Arryn when they were alive. He just had the longest summer in a century(the time to rebuild and repopulate in Summer, not Winter), had great relations with both the King and the Hand, was actually Hand himself. He never did anything about it.

 

I think his plans were never really serious. Pipe dream is the wrong word for it, because I think it was more than attainable, but it does not seem like it was something he was that invested in.

Or maybe the idea just came to him when summer was ending, or he felt The North needed to recover from the war first

[Loose Bolt]

Actually it would have been possible that Ned had given new lands to his soldiers who had served him during the Rebellion. After all those warriors had helped him and new king staying alive and keeping their own lands. Or he could have given parts of New Gift to all his veterans who did not yet owned any land under their own name.

[Mad King Bolton]

Isn't the Gift and the New Gift land belonging to the Night's Watch given from the Crown?  So would Ned be the one to decide to settle it?  I'd think as Warden of the North he'd be the one to find people to settle within it and as a Northerner with strong ties to the NW, he'd be motivated to help them, but the final decision with what to do with the New Gift would belong to the Lord Commander.  I'm not saying the LC wouldn't be completely on board with getting help in that regard and gladly take whatever people were sent there, but it's at least somewhat more complicated than just assigning a son or someone there. I wonder if someone from the NW would be better suited to Lord there be in charge like at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower.  The presence of women and families with daughters would also have to be factored in considering the NW vows.  I'd be curious to hear more opinions with that in mind. Am I wrong though?  Is it not belonging to the NW?

[CamiloRP]

16 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

Isn't the Gift and the New Gift land belonging to the Night's Watch given from the Crown?  So would Ned be the one to decide to settle it?  I'd think as Warden of the North he'd be the one to find people to settle within it and as a Northerner with strong ties to the NW, he'd be motivated to help them, but the final decision with what to do with the New Gift would belong to the Lord Commander.  I'm not saying the LC wouldn't be completely on board with getting help in that regard and gladly take whatever people were sent there, but it's at least somewhat more complicated than just assigning a son or someone there. I wonder if someone from the NW would be better suited to Lord there be in charge like at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower.  The presence of women and families with daughters would also have to be factored in considering the NW vows.  I'd be curious to hear more opinions with that in mind. Am I wrong though?  Is it not belonging to the NW?

Yes, it belongs to the Night's Watch, but Benjen thought that, if their taxes went to the NW, Mormont would agree, and I can see why, not only it brings them more money, but also, the people living in there would be more prone to sending people to the NW, and it's even better if the houses ruling there have blood ties to House Stark.

[Azarial]

Quote

His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on."

 

If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. "This land belongs to the Watch," Jon said.

In the past the gift was settled by peasants, and they kept getting attacked by the Wildlings. The idea seems to be Lords, plural as they would have the resources to defend the people that live there, something the nights watch was unable to do. Then taxes would go to the nights watch since the intent of the gift was for them to use it for food and income, and the peasants would have given them food prior to them fleeing south. So their is no cost to Winterfell. The land is already paying taxes to the nights watch (in theory) and their  Lord would be the LC. Eddard just wanted to place more lords there in order to protect the people there, while leaving the rest the same. There is no vow considerations as people have lived there in the past, it's a non issue. Think of it along the lines of LC would become warden of the watch, with those  new lords sending resources and taxes to the watch.

Since he said new lords, that would be peoples younger sons who would be otherwise landless. This would be Jon and Rickon, from his household and equivalent men from other noble houses. If we think of the 19 castles, and use that as a guide for how many holdfasts the new gift could support this implies land for at least 19 new lesser lords, possibly more depending on how much of the gift is given to these new lords. 

As for who would they fight for, the shield against the Wildlings implies that they would support the NW in times of need.

As to the rest, Ned was only in charge 14 years. He was not prepared or expecting to become Warden of the North, so would not have had any plans laid out. So implying that this means he was not serious is disingenuous. Ideas take time to form and this would only happen after seeing a need, then time to brainstorm various ideas, select the best idea and make a plan, then execute. It seems he notices an issue, likely because Ben mentioned it. We know new recruits are kept away from their families for extended periods of time, and that recovering from the war, and getting his bearings as Warden of the North, new husband, new father etc. would take a long time. His whole life was upheaved by the war. He then took the time to think of a solution, and then create a plan with Ben. The issue was time, and it was only discussed when Jon was old enough to be part of the discussion and to have processed what it meant for him and his future. This isn't a plan they sat on for years on end. They were waiting for spring, it was planned they just needed the LC to agree. It's right in the text.

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Azarial said:

 

As to the rest, Ned was only in charge 14 years.

Only 14 years?

How long do you think his father Rickard was Lord for? Or the average length of rule for the last 10 Lords of Winterfell.

14 years is a pretty long time to rule. Between the year of 200-300 there will have been 7-9 Lords of Winterfell. 14 years is not a short time.

[The hairy bear]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:42 AM, Alex13 said:

I am asking, because from what i can tell, the New Gift is rather fertile and it is also big, so that means that the lord in charge of that could possibly raise 2000-4000 troops

Probably not that much. The Karstarks seem to own a significantly bigger territory than the New Gift, located in a more Southern position that presumably has warmer climate, and they also have a large coast that they can use for fishing and trade. And yet, they only provided 2,300 men to Robb's army.

The mountain clansmen, also with a much greater territory to the South, are said to be able to provide between 2 and 3 thousand men.

On 10/25/2020 at 1:28 PM, CamiloRP said:

Jon thinks that Ned would have said lords pay taxes to the Night's Watch instead of Winterfell, yet that would involve a massive cost for WF, so I assume that said lords would also have to pay to Winterfell the 'loan' gradually.

I don't see how that would represent a cost for Winterfell. Currently, the gift is abandoned, and it does not even belong to Winterfell. And if the plan was succesful, it would prevent future raids against lands that actually pay taxes to the Starks.

On 10/27/2020 at 3:47 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I think his plans were never really serious. Pipe dream is the wrong word for it, because I think it was more than attainable, but it does not seem like it was something he was that invested in.

It seems natural that this idea only came late in Eddard's rule, for many reasons:

• Right after the rebellion, the North would have suffered demographic losses that would make the plan unfeasible.
• Right after the rebellion, the Wall had just received a significant influx of recruits (Thorne, Rikker, and other defenders of KL), so the decline of the Night Watch wouldn't be as notorious.
• Right after the rebellion, Benjen still wouldn't be the First Ranger, so the Watch wouldn't have such a direct connection to Winterfell.
• As others have suggested, this idea would work nicely as a way to leave an inheritance to one of Ned's younger children. That wouldn't be a pressing issue at the beginning of Ned's rule.

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Only 14 years?

How long do you think his father Rickard was Lord for? Or the average length of rule for the last 10 Lords of Winterfell.

14 years is a pretty long time to rule. Between the year of 200-300 there will have been 7-9 Lords of Winterfell. 14 years is not a short time.

It depends on how you look at it. There was a period between 170 and 220 when the North was really unstable and there were many lords in quick succession. But in the immediate past before Ned's ascension, between 226 and 282, there had been only two lords (Edwyle and Rickard) averaging 28 years of rule each.

Ned could easily expect to rule even more time than that, given that he lived in a peaceful time and he was only 18 when his father was killed.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see how that would represent a cost for Winterfell. Currently, the gift is abandoned, and it does not even belong to Winterfell. And if the plan was succesful, it would prevent future raids against lands that actually pay taxes to the Starks.

He intends to develop the lands, there's a massive building coast for that, building holdfasts, getting the tools to work the land, the cattle, I get that feudalism doesn't work that way, but his children don't have any money, so if he expects them to live there he's got to give them some help, or else they'll be living in tents at best. Also, leaving in The Gift isn't such a, well, gift (I mean, it is for us) It's the most northern land in Westeros, a place known for its cruel winters, and it's expected to have constant Freefolk raids, so you need to make it tempting to people, specially when you consider that in feudalism most places had no spare people, so to find the would be inhabitants of The Gift, Ned would have to go to cities, meaning the people would be all southerners (except for those from White Harbor) and would be less likely to go freeze their butts of in The Gift.

As I said, I think Ned would have given lands there to Jon, Rickon and Bran, and maybe Poole and Mollen, with some possible other lords being second sons of other northern lords, but that's not the best option, IMHO. I think Ned should have talked to Robert and split The Gift in nine, giving each part to one of the great houses and making it a position such as Dragonstone, meaning it's not inherited father to son, but's it's rather given to the brother of the lord. That would cause greater ties to the Watch from all the great houses, less investment by Winterfell and a better development of the lands. With the additional benefit of the children of the lord, because they have no inheritance they would be more likely to go to The Wall. Tho something would have to be done to ensure those houses are as barred from entering war as the watch is.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

He intends to develop the lands, there's a massive building coast for that, building holdfasts, getting the tools to work the land, the cattle, I get that feudalism doesn't work that way, but his children don't have any money, so if he expects them to live there he's got to give them some help, or else they'll be living in tents at best. Also, leaving in The Gift isn't such a, well, gift (I mean, it is for us) It's the most northern land in Westeros, a place known for its cruel winters, and it's expected to have constant Freefolk raids, so you need to make it tempting to people, specially when you consider that in feudalism most places had no spare people, so to find the would be inhabitants of The Gift, Ned would have to go to cities, meaning the people would be all southerners (except for those from White Harbor) and would be less likely to go freeze their butts of in The Gift.

As I said, I think Ned would have given lands there to Jon, Rickon and Bran, and maybe Poole and Mollen, with some possible other lords being second sons of other northern lords, but that's not the best option, IMHO. I think Ned should have talked to Robert and split The Gift in nine, giving each part to one of the great houses and making it a position such as Dragonstone, meaning it's not inherited father to son, but's it's rather given to the brother of the lord. That would cause greater ties to the Watch from all the great houses, less investment by Winterfell and a better development of the lands. With the additional benefit of the children of the lord, because they have no inheritance they would be more likely to go to The Wall. Tho something would have to be done to ensure those houses are as barred from entering war as the watch is.

ASoS, Jon V

“They died or went away.” Brandon’s Gift had been farmed for thousands of years, but as the Watch dwindled there were fewer hands to plow the fields, tend the bees, and plant the orchards, so the wild had reclaimed many a field and hall. In the New Gift there had been villages and holdfasts whose taxes, rendered in goods and labor, helped feed and clothe the black brothers. But those were largely gone as well.”

 

“His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. “It is a dream for spring, though,” Lord Eddard had said. “Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on.”
If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father’s name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. “This land belongs to the Watch,” Jon said.”

<snip>
 

“Maybe they were tired of fighting. Tired of barring their doors every night and wondering if Rattleshirt or someone like him would break them down to carry off their wives.”

 

 

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

ASoS, Jon V

“They died or went away.” Brandon’s Gift had been farmed for thousands of years, but as the Watch dwindled there were fewer hands to plow the fields, tend the bees, and plant the orchards, so the wild had reclaimed many a field and hall. In the New Gift there had been villages and holdfasts whose taxes, rendered in goods and labor, helped feed and clothe the black brothers. But those were largely gone as well.”

 

“His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. “It is a dream for spring, though,” Lord Eddard had said. “Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on.”
If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father’s name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. “This land belongs to the Watch,” Jon said.”

<snip>
 

“Maybe they were tired of fighting. Tired of barring their doors every night and wondering if Rattleshirt or someone like him would break them down to carry off their wives.”

 

 

Fair enough, but still there'd be some cost in restoring those villages and holdfasts and reading the lands for field work.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Fair enough, but still there'd be some cost in restoring those villages and holdfasts and reading the lands for field work.

Sure. But it’s different than having no infrastructure whatsoever. Maybe it would be similar in a way to what Jon’s doing w/ the abandoned castles. Although we are not given a lot of info on the gift and new gift, so we can’t know how derelict these structures are or not. 

[CamiloRP]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure. But it’s different than having no infrastructure whatsoever. Maybe it would be similar in a way to what Jon’s doing w/ the abandoned castles. Although we are not given a lot of info on the gift and new gift, so we can’t know how derelict these structures are or not. 

Yep, I was mistaken, but the lords who would settle there would still need something to get started, either money or workers, which would come from Winterfell. Also Ned needs to make this lands look tempting, or else few people would wan't such position And if the holdfasts are in a similar state as the abandoned castles at the Wall... Jon send Janos to one partially as punishment, why would Ned want that for his family?

I also think that this was more Benjen's plan than Ned's, as he has little to win from it and I assume there are big chunks of the North that can be developed easier and would give the North more gain.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yep, I was mistaken, but the lords who would settle there would still need something to get started, either money or workers, which would come from Winterfell. Also Ned needs to make this lands look tempting, or else few people would wan't such position And if the holdfasts are in a similar state as the abandoned castles at the Wall... Jon send Janos to one partially as punishment, why would Ned want that for his family?

I also think that this was more Benjen's plan than Ned's, as he has little to win from it and I assume there are big chunks of the North that can be developed easier and would give the North more gain.

I think both the Lord of Winterfell, the Night’s Watch, and the North in general have a lot to gain from having the gifts occupied. As to big chunks of land elsewhere in the north, I would expect most land to belong to one family or another. 

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think both the Lord of Winterfell, the Night’s Watch, and the North in general have a lot to gain from having the gifts occupied. As to big chunks of land elsewhere in the north, I would expect most land to belong to one family or another. 

yeah, absolutely, but those chunks would pay taxes to Winterfell.

[Lord Lannister]

In normal times it would've been a decent option to get Jon Snow out of the household to appease his wife.