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How come Dontos's death didn't affect Sansa more?


Alyn Oakenfist

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1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

If she truly thought those were amethysts it's very far off that she would have associated it with Joff's death.  If all she was told was that the hair net was magical and it would help her escape, then it's a pretty big leap for her eye to zero in on one missing amethyst in the hairnet and conclude that it was used to poison Joffrey.  The only conclusion is that Sansa knew exactly why the hairnet was "magical".  She knew it was poison before she went to the wedding.  This is why we aren't given her POV in the chapters both immediately before and during the wedding.  We only get Tyrion's POV.

This is especially true in that when she fled the Hall no one was accusing anyone of poisoning Joff.  In fact the consensus is that he was choking on his pigeon pie.  (And that's the purpose of the Strangler after all, to make the poisoning look like you were simply choking on your food).

Sansa immediately seeks to find someone to blame for Joff's death.  After all, she must have known that she would be a prime suspect.  So she zeroes in on Dontos.  

It's also why Sansa is ok with Dontos being killed.  Dontos knows about the poison plot.  It's best for all involved, (and Sansa is very much involved for at least bringing the poison into the feast) if Dontos is silenced.

We are in Sansa's head when she realizes it was poison tho, we know she didn't knew

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10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We are in Sansa's head when she realizes it was poison tho, we know she didn't knew

Yes, we are, but take a close look at that chapter.  Sansa is already becoming hysterical as she flees the hall and this is before she comes to her "realization" that the amethyst caused Joff's death:

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The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing.  Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well.  "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa.  "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf."

  A good heart.  I have a good heart.  Hysterical laughter rose up in her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down.

Out of all the characters in the books Sansa is the one who lies to herself the most.  It's her actual armor, her defense mechanism.

When told that she had a good heart, it almost causes her to break down into hysterics.  Because she knows that she was at least partly responsible for what just happened.  She knows that Joffrey was poisoned, she knows that he didn't choke on his food. 

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42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, we are, but take a close look at that chapter.  Sansa is already becoming hysterical as she flees the hall and this is before she comes to her "realization" that the amethyst caused Joff's death:

Out of all the characters in the books Sansa is the one who lies to herself the most.  It's her actual armor, her defense mechanism.

When told that she had a good heart, it almost causes her to break down into hysterics.  Because she knows what she was at least partly responsible for what just happened.  She knows that Joffrey was poisoned, she knows that he didn't choke on his food. 

I don't know, I still don't see it, she thinks those might be tears of joy and she had some reasons to suspect Dontos and the hairnet.

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On 10/25/2020 at 6:12 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Dontos's death is a pretty big oh shit moment, and by all logic it should serve as a catalyst for a complete distrust of Littlefinger and Sansa finally realizing that life isn't a song, after all her emotional investment into Dontos goes by way of crossbow. So the question is, why doesn't any of this happen, and Sansa isn't changed that much by the fool's death? I mean by ADWD she's still a bit naïve and somehow still trusts Littlefinger.

She is shocked by it at first, but then LF fobs it off on Dontos being a drunk who would just as easily sell her out to the queen -- which is not necessarily a lie. So Sansa accepts this explanation, and she has seen enough death at this point that it's not like it will haunt her dreams or anything.

My question, though, is why LF did this right in front of Sansa. It would have been an easy thing to have Sansa taken below first and then deal with Dontos, but instead he has her witness it. A subtle message to Sansa not to cross Littlefinger? Perhaps, but Dontos did not cross him; he did everything that was asked. The real lesson Sansa should take from this (and I'm not sure she does) is the one about clean hands: LF always wants clean hands, and if that means killing people, including her, who might expose him, he will.

 

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8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My question, though, is why LF did this right in front of Sansa. It would have been an easy thing to have Sansa taken below first and then deal with Dontos, but instead he has her witness it.

He did that to make Sansa complicit, to implicate her in the deed.

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On 10/25/2020 at 5:12 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Dontos's death is a pretty big oh shit moment, and by all logic it should serve as a catalyst for a complete distrust of Littlefinger and Sansa finally realizing that life isn't a song, after all her emotional investment into Dontos goes by way of crossbow. So the question is, why doesn't any of this happen, and Sansa isn't changed that much by the fool's death? I mean by ADWD she's still a bit naïve and somehow still trusts Littlefinger.

She'd seen her father executed when he was planned to be pardoned, she's been beaten by the KG in front of the court, she'd been married to Tyrion and denied the "protection*" of the Tyrells, et al. She realized Dontos lied to her about the hairnet and she was complicit in killing Joffrey (though she didn't regret that). It's part of her slow arc into realizing how to play the game. We see it again later when Sansa realizes that she has to continue poisoning SR for her and LF to survive. She opts to do that instead of keeping her cousin healthy.

*For all the political machinations I do believe she'd have been happy and safe but it was definitely a means to an end.

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14 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

He did that to make Sansa complicit, to implicate her in the deed.

Maybe, but I don't see why anyone would think she was complicit when it was Littlefinger who gave the order and Sansa was just standing there. Besides, he's already made her complicit in Joffrey's murder, so adding Dontos doesn't place her in any greater jeopardy.

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22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

She is shocked by it at first, but then LF fobs it off on Dontos being a drunk who would just as easily sell her out to the queen -- which is not necessarily a lie. So Sansa accepts this explanation, and she has seen enough death at this point that it's not like it will haunt her dreams or anything.

:agree:

22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My question, though, is why LF did this right in front of Sansa. It would have been an easy thing to have Sansa taken below first and then deal with Dontos, but instead he has her witness it. A subtle message to Sansa not to cross Littlefinger? Perhaps, but Dontos did not cross him; he did everything that was asked. The real lesson Sansa should take from this (and I'm not sure she does) is the one about clean hands: LF always wants clean hands, and if that means killing people, including her, who might expose him, he will.

 

I think he did it deliberately, so that Sansa is aware of how ruthless and cold he is/can be. A preemptive show of nastiness, if you will. 

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

I think he did it deliberately, so that Sansa is aware of how ruthless and cold he is/can be. A preemptive show of nastiness, if you will. 

That's my thought as well, but I'm wondering if this was a mistake on LF's part. He needs Sansa to trust him so she can carry out the next part of this plan: to become someone else, not just for a little while but all the time, in front of numerous people, for an extended period. This is difficult enough for a master mummer like Varys, but nearly impossible for a scared young girl. But you don't earn people's trust by scaring them like this.

So that leads me to think that maybe LF has some ulterior plan for Sansa, which would also be the reason why he made the cover story about him fathering her when he was in charge of Gulltown so blatantly false. 

 

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I think when it comes down to it, Sansa was probably just relieved to see Dontos dead, whether she admits it to herself or not.  She had already come to the conclusion that Dontos was in on a murder plot, and it involved poison that she snuck into the Hall (whether ot not she realized it).  Dontos, returning to King's Landing was a dangerous scenario for Sansa.

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Survival mode says it. I think it's how most people would react. They just shut down and try to avoid death themselves by acting startled. She has had the shock of finding out that Littlefinger was behind it, that Dontos was acting the role of her Florian. She just explains her reaction as an upset stomach and conforms. She's had a lots of practice with the Lannisters.

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On 10/28/2020 at 3:13 PM, John Suburbs said:

That's my thought as well, but I'm wondering if this was a mistake on LF's part. He needs Sansa to trust him so she can carry out the next part of this plan: to become someone else, not just for a little while but all the time, in front of numerous people, for an extended period. This is difficult enough for a master mummer like Varys, but nearly impossible for a scared young girl. But you don't earn people's trust by scaring them like this.

So that leads me to think that maybe LF has some ulterior plan for Sansa, which would also be the reason why he made the cover story about him fathering her when he was in charge of Gulltown so blatantly false. 

I agree it was deliberately set up in front of Sansa - I suppose the first benefit for LF is too see if her instinct for survival is stronger than the Starks' loopy (in his view) passion for justice. If she was so was so obstinately honourable as Ned, maybe he'd have killed her too. For his own safety.

Beyond that, he wants to change her, but I'm not sure what he wants her to be. Pawn? Living doll? Cat substitute? Or even better, maybe he wants Cat, but re-made in his own image - Cat the player, the amoral, the killer, the winner. Cat with all her Stark/Tully 'weaknesses' stripped away. Cat who does not despise him. I like this idea because it sort of echoes Sandor's attitude to Arya: every time she showed the will to fight and kill, he rewarded her - it was like he'd found himself a Stark with potential to actually survive in his world, a Stark he could mould in his own image a bit. Killer Stark, again.

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19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I agree it was deliberately set up in front of Sansa - I suppose the first benefit for LF is too see if her instinct for survival is stronger than the Starks' loopy (in his view) passion for justice. If she was so was so obstinately honourable as Ned, maybe he'd have killed her too. For his own safety.

Beyond that, he wants to change her, but I'm not sure what he wants her to be. Pawn? Living doll? Cat substitute? Or even better, maybe he wants Cat, but re-made in his own image - Cat the player, the amoral, the killer, the winner. Cat with all her Stark/Tully 'weaknesses' stripped away. Cat who does not despise him. I like this idea because it sort of echoes Sandor's attitude to Arya: every time she showed the will to fight and kill, he rewarded her - it was like he'd found himself a Stark with potential to actually survive in his world, a Stark he could mould in his own image a bit. Killer Stark, again.

Good analysis. This would be a dangerous game for him, though, because a strong-willed Sansa just might end up being strong-willed enough to rid herself of Littlefinger, especially if she winds up in a position that she no longer needs him for protection -- maybe if she ever finds herself in a castle made of snow.

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