Incels:

[Varysblackfyre321]

Quote

You can be a sel - loathing narcissist. Analyzing why these people are the way they are is a pretty interesting, if acutely disturbing, undertaking.  They are extremely dangerous, as a group, however, and shouldn't be ignored. 

This is a fair point.

A person could hate themselves yet feel like they're better than most.

I do agree that they’re dangerous same way any hate-movement is.

Their danger increases when some people try to sanitize a lot of their desires, and grievances as just being about their inability to get laid.

You know suggest society ”redistribute the sex.” so these poor angry(racist) boys/men,  stop committing mass murders. 

It never truly was about sex.

Because anyone with a couple of bucks can find a prostitute. 

It’s about controling women and the sense of entitlement some men have been fostered to have in regards to them.

[Heartofice]

Its not even about getting laid though, that is really the surface level stuff.

Really I think it's about how these guys see themselves in society. They feel like society and the world is rigged against them and it makes them angry, because there are guys out there who have it really easy and they themselves will never have what those 'Chads' have. Sure they want to get laid, because they are young men and that is the thing that young men become most obsessed about. Figuring out that the fantasy of sex and love that society tells they should have is a total lie can really mess them up.

Like I said in the other thread, if you look at a lot of these dangerous sub groups, you tend to find very similar people. Lonely and alienated, usually young guys, normally bullied, rejected constantly and not just by women but by everyone. They latch onto something that makes sense to them and they use it to make themselves feel better, give themselves purpose and take it out on other people that they hate. You can find that kind of pattern in a lot of places. 
 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

21 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Its not even about getting laid though, that is really the surface level stuff.

Really I think it's about how these guys see themselves in society. They feel like society and the world is rigged against them and it makes them angry, because there are guys out there who have it really easy and they themselves will never have what those 'Chads' have. Sure they want to get laid, because they are young men and that is the thing that young men become most obsessed about. Figuring out that the fantasy of sex and love that society tells they should have is a total lie can really mess them up.

Like I said in the other thread, if you look at a lot of these dangerous sub groups, you tend to find very similar people. Lonely and alienated, usually young guys, normally bullied, rejected constantly and not just by women but by everyone. They latch onto something that makes sense to them and they use it to make themselves feel better, give themselves purpose and take it out on other people that they hate. You can find that kind of pattern in a lot of places. 
 

I was one.  Angry, bitter, and convinced there was something wrong with women who didn’t like me.  

I can, now, see the narcissistic side.  It’s a defense mechanism.  Shifting the blame from yourself to the world.  It is deeply disturbed.  

I’d like to give the younger me a good hard slap.

[Varysblackfyre321]

32 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Its not even about getting laid though, that is really the surface level stuff.

I've said this repeatedly. 

It’s not about sex to them. If it was they'd find a prostitute and not ridicule the thought having sex with a ”land-whale.”

32 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Really I think it's about how these guys see themselves in society. They feel like society and the world is rigged against them and it makes them angry, because there are guys out there who have it really easy and they themselves will never have what those 'Chads' have.

Eh. Society has a part in it.

In that it does often infuse boys and men bad ideas in regards to how they’re supposed to engage with and see women.

It’s not really about ”chads” having it easy.

The ”chads” wouldn't be worse off in most of their ideal world.

Most are gender traditionalists who don’t want to slip the shackle of gender roles.

Their ideal worlds would simply see women themselves not being allowed to reject them. 

That choice would be left up to men.

32 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Like I said in the other thread, if you look at a lot of these dangerous sub groups, you tend to find very similar people. Lonely and alienated, usually young guys, normally bullied, rejected constantly and not just by women but by everyone.

Young and alienated perhaps, but often times they're the bullies-towards the gays, women, anyone who's not white.

Are some victims of bullying? Undoubtedly.

Does that really explain a lot of their existence?

Not by much imo and I find there's a danger in seeing such radicalization as being the primary result of societal  mistreatment. 

[Heartofice]

31 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I've said this repeatedly. 

It’s not about sex to them. If it was they'd find a prostitute and not ridicule the thought having sex with a ”land-whale.”

When I say it's not about sex, I mean it is a lot more complex than that. Sex is a big motivator in a lot of young mens lives, but they also want to be loved and wanted and respected, and they really don't get any of that. I think there are some Incels ( actually I don't eve think Incel is the right term here because it only really describes a small subsection of what we are talking about) who go to prostitutes but I think in reality it makes them more depressed because it highlights their own ability to get laid and their own worthlessness.

34 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In that it does often infuse boys and men bad ideas in regards to how they’re supposed to engage with and see women.

Well actually what generally happens is that they have grown up being told that the way to win women's hearts and get them to like you, is to just be nice and give women what they want, which of course is bullshit as attraction is much more complex than that, and on it's own doesn't have that effect. So instead they just copy the behaviour of the guys who generally end up getting laid, by being arrogant (mistaking confidence for arrogance) and 'Alpha'. Obviously most of these guys are completely socially uncalibrated so get it all completely wrong and take the wrong lessons from it all, and it takes them down a dark spiral. 

38 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Most are gender traditionalists who don’t want to slip the shackle of gender roles.

Yeah is definitely a characteristic of a lot of these guys. Many are hugely anti feminist, mainly because they see feminism as a way of neutering masculinity and they see the past few decades as being a slow decline for men leaving men with no role and no guidance for how to live their lives. 

 

41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Young and alienated perhaps, but often times they're the bullies-towards the gays, women, anyone who's not white.

Are some victims of bullying? Undoubtedly.

Thats not a good characterisation, thats just you adding that. Many of these guys (and I've spoken to a lot of them in the past which is why I'm talking about it) are not white, there is a large non white segment. But yes, many are bullied and many people who end up being bullied as kids end up being bullies, thats a pretty familiar pattern. 

[Theda Baratheon]

I used to feel a bit bad for them and now I’ve no fucking sympathy. Sorry to be blunt. They just hate women. And they hate each other and they drag each other through the mud. I’m a woman who hasn’t had sex throughout my whole 20s (I’m 26) and I’m not out there hating on men for not finding me attractive and believing I deserve some 10/10 objectively hot guy just BECAUSE. 

so I’m unsympathetic to the disingenuous crap about lack of sex, isolation, self loathing being a MALE problem. Women just don’t usually kill or attack (or fantasise about such things) because of it. It was a woman who came up with the term incel btw, a lesbian to describe rural dating. Girl, I get it 

lmao sorry I’m just angry and upset today for some reason and this topic gets me riled up every time 

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I used to feel a bit bad for them and now I’ve no fucking sympathy. Sorry to be blunt. They just hate women. And they hate each other and they drag each other through the mud. I’m a woman who hasn’t had sex throughout my whole 20s (I’m 26) and I’m not out there hating on men for not finding me attractive and believing I deserve some 10/10 objectively hot guy just BECAUSE. 

Understandable, but men and women are not the same and it would make sense that their reaction to things would be different. 

 

Edit, let my clarify that a bit because its really about a very small subset of guys we are talking about, but them being young men really does play a part in it.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Figuring out that the fantasy of sex and love that society tells they should have is a total lie can really mess them up.

To be fair, much of what we are told about love and sex are indeed lies, and physical beauty is indeed a huge advantage in our world (there are a bunch of studies about that).

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I can, now, see the narcissistic side.  It’s a defense mechanism.  Shifting the blame from yourself to the world.  It is deeply disturbed. 
I’d like to give the younger me a good hard slap.

Same here.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

When I say it's not about sex, I mean it is a lot more complex than that.

And so have I. 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Sex is a big motivator in a lot of young mens lives, but they also want to be loved and wanted and respected, and they really don't get any of that.

Loved? Eh. Respected sure, by women in acknowledging their superiority in at least in terms of gender.

Again they tend to be gender traditionalists.

The Chad in their ideal would still prosper.

They may not.

But at least women are beneath them on the social hierarchy.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I think there are some Incels ( actually I don't eve think Incel is the right term here because it only really describes a small subsection of what we are talking about) who go to prostitutes but I think in reality it makes them more depressed because it highlights their own ability to get laid and their own worthlessness.

We’re talking about incels and given there are a frightening number of people who identify as such. And dude I get it's not really about getting laid in it of itself.

Again I’ve couched the true grievance is about control, not easy access to sex.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well actually what generally happens is that they have grown up being told that the way to win women's hearts and get them to like you, is to just be nice and give women what they want, which of course is bullshit as attraction is much more complex than that, and on it's own doesn't have that effect.

If you’re nice to women they owe you sex is  a problematic sentiment that invades society’s consciousness.

Though in my experience incel or people who sympathize with them generally weren't especially nice to women, but still expected sex as a reward for showing women the basic politeness that should be expected to a human being.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

So instead they just copy the behaviour of the guys who generally end up getting laid, by being arrogant (mistaking confidence for arrogance) and 'Alpha'. Obviously most of these guys are completely socially uncalibrated so get it all completely wrong and take the wrong lessons from it all, and it takes them down a dark spiral. 

I think many don't need to copy an ”alpha” to start the spiral.

It certainly does help trigger that for many.

But I see many just are comfortable enough with the idea of their perceived moral superiorty(hey I don't beat women like that guy I see at the bar), for why they’ll always have difficulty in finding a romantic partner.

It’s never their fault truly

They’re just too nice.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Thats not a good characterisation, thats just you adding that.

To be clear I was brancing off of incense.

When you look the make up of nazis and members of hate groups in general you’ll find plenty if not most of them aren't coming from a place social mistreatment least of all by the groups they're hating.

But yes in terms of incels being racists.

Eh.

Incels and white-supremacists tend have strong overlap to say the very least.

An example: Elliot Roger. Who despite being half-asian thought his partial whiteness should have gotten girls begging for his dick as opposed that those damn blacks.

Not hard to see why given white-supremchists tend to promise a more patriarchal world.

that's why you'll see white supremacist-or ”empiricist” try to clean incels up-even the mass murdering kind.

Society having outdated/bad views on gender roles, wasn’t the reason Roger snapped. He snapped snapped because his mommy and daddy got divorced, he was bullied at school, was socially awkward and women feared narcissistic white-supremacist.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Many of these guys (and I've spoken to a lot of them in the past which is why I'm talking about it) are not white, there is a large non white segment.

There are non-white incels.

But the overwhelming majority are and addition to their misogyny, a healthy dose of racism is tacked.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

But yes, many are bullied and many people who end up being bullied as kids end up being bullies, thats a pretty familiar pattern. 

Eh.

Yes, the abused can become the abuser.

But I think that mindset alone can be a very simplistic in terms of gaging what leads so many people to join hate-groups, or at least bece sympathetic.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Understandable, but men and women are not the same and it would make sense that their reaction to things would be different. 

 

Men and women aren't treated the same on this.

Society still has some unproductive views on sex.

Men who have lots of sex with women: players who should be praised.

Women who have lots of sex with guys: sluts who should be derided.

Women who don't readily open their legs for men: prudes, and uptight bitches.

Incels tend to believe in this stuff as well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Same here

Yeah.  I’d say age will help these kids but I sincerely worry that they are reinforcing their own misogyny via their message boards and information bubbles.  

I wish I knew an simple way to get them to open their eyes to their own self destructive behavior.

[Week]

Can I suggest the subtitle: "Incels: We're Never Gonna Score!"

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115641/quotes/?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Understandable, but men and women are not the same and it would make sense that their reaction to things would be different. 

 

Edit, let my clarify that a bit because its really about a very small subset of guys we are talking about, but them being young men really does play a part in it.

No men and women aren’t the same but men and women still feel both isolation, self consciousness, self doubt, sexual frustration etc. 
 

Women don’t USUALLY kill or attack because of those feelings (or fantasise about it), SOME men do. So I’ve no bloody sympathy. 
 

They just simply don’t like women a lot of the time, I used to read some of the stuff in incel forums and it was truly horrible, horrible shit. 
 

am I supposed to feel sorry for a young man easily radicalised into violent and vile ways of thinking? As I said women feel the same levels of self doubt, frustration, fear, isolation etc. Those aren’t uniquely male feelings. 
 

I suppose there’s scope for why there is that certain subset of men that are prone to being radicalised but then we go in a circle, veering into territory explaining and justifying their actions because mans somehow unique place in society feeling these awful things and come back around to the same statement I’ve made that women feel all those things too. 
 

 

[Relic]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

No men and women aren’t the same but men and women still feel both isolation, self consciousness, self doubt, sexual frustration etc. 
 

Women don’t USUALLY kill or attack because of those feelings (or fantasise about it), SOME men do. So I’ve no bloody sympathy. 
 

They just simply don’t like women a lot of the time, I used to read some of the stuff in incel forums and it was truly horrible, horrible shit. 
 

am I supposed to feel sorry for a young man easily radicalised into violent and vile ways of thinking? As I said women feel the same levels of self doubt, frustration, fear, isolation etc. Those aren’t uniquely male feelings. 
 

I suppose there’s scope for why there is that certain subset of men that are prone to being radicalised but then we go in a circle, veering into territory explaining and justifying their actions because mans somehow unique place in society feeling these awful things and come back around to the same statement I’ve made that women feel all those things too. 
 

 

This is pretty much how I see the matter as well. Hard to feel sympathy for these dudes. However, having known a few men who were steered down a path of lonely despair and then outright anger, I DO occasionally allow myself to feel empathy for them. 

That empathy in no way stifles my concern over what looks to be a growing INCEL movement online, and the psychological damage it does to younger men who could be steered away from such things if engaged by caring members of our society. However, im far more worried for the victims and targets of their hatred, as their suffering in no way excuses the suffering they may wish upon, or may actively perpetrate against, others.

[Theda Baratheon]

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

This is pretty much how I see the matter as well. Hard to feel sympathy for these dudes. However, having known a few men who were steered down a path of lonely despair and then outright anger, I DO occasionally allow myself to feel empathy for them. 

That empathy in no way stifles my concern over what looks to be a growing INCEL movement online, and the psychological damage it does to younger men who could be steered away from such things if engaged by caring members of our society. However, im far more worried for the victims and targets of their hatred, as their suffering in no way excuses the suffering they may wish upon, or may actively perpetrate against, others.

I worry about teen boys and I do empathise with the loneliness, social isolation, anger and frustration and self loathing that makes it easy for them to be preyed upon and indoctrinated but I also just can’t feel sympathy when they go off the deep end and when they become men who fantasise about hurt or actually do hurt people. They’re also bloody horrible to each other. I remember peeking into the forums a few years ago and being horrified not only by the violent anti-woman rhetoric but by how nasty, toxic and insulting they were towards each other, calling themselves ugly and telling each other they’re worthless. Like they wanted to just stew in the filth - gross. 

[Relic]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I worry about teen boys and I do empathise with the loneliness, social isolation, anger and frustration and self loathing that makes it easy for them to be preyed upon and indoctrinated but I also just can’t feel sympathy when they go off the deep end and when they become men who fantasise about hurt or actually do hurt people. They’re also bloody horrible to each other. 

Agree 100%

[Liffguard]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

They’re also bloody horrible to each other. I remember peeking into the forums a few years ago and being horrified not only by the violent anti-woman rhetoric but by how nasty, toxic and insulting they were towards each other, calling themselves ugly and telling each other they’re worthless. Like they wanted to just stew in the filth - gross. 

The Contrapoints video on incels spent a fair bit of time on this, and I thought it was an interesting look into their mindset. She referred to it as digital self-harm. A lot of them go to these sites specifically because of how horrible it makes them feel, because it reaffirms for them that their bitterness, misogyny and self-hatred is enlightened. It allows them a certain illusion of control over their misery. Sure, they're miserable, but they're right to feel miserable, and everyone else who isn't is labouring under a delusion, and the proof is in all these other people confirming how worthless they are. It's a vicious self-reinforcing downward spiral.

I will admit, I do feel some small sympathy for them, despite how horribly they treat others. If the movement had existed fifteen years ago, I could see my past self getting sucked in. When I see incels nowadays, there's an element of there but for the grace of God go I. To be clear though, whatever sympathy I feel for them is massively overshadowed by my sympathy for their victims. And feeling sympathy definitely mustn't be the same as indulging them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

44 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

I will admit, I do feel some small sympathy for them, despite how horribly they treat others. If the movement had existed fifteen years ago, I could see my past self getting sucked in. When I see incels nowadays, there's an element of there but for the grace of God go I. To be clear though, whatever sympathy I feel for them is massively overshadowed by my sympathy for their victims. And feeling sympathy definitely mustn't be the same as indulging them.

They’re dangerous.  They should be treated as dangerous.  But, I’m right there with you on “but for the grace of God.”

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

What the actual fuck is this shit? Incels are Mens Rights Activists/Nazis, straight up. I have as much fucking symphony for these fuckers as I do for Hitler.  Which is to say fucking none. 

I guess the counterpoint to this, as a Jew, would be what if Hitler had experienced more sympathy in his youth? He was a rather problematic adolescent. Maybe he wouldn't have become one of history's greatest monsters. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

That uh, that is a joke counterpoint right?

That also assumes that these are like just horny teens on the internet as opposed to a pretty fucking organized group of older 20s early 30s mostly white dudes who think it should be legal to rape people.

I think i will go sit away from the internet now and read lest I completely lose my shit.

Hence "in his youth." I don't have much sympathy for the adult men engaging in this. But like others said, they wish they could have spoke to their younger selves when they too were having these kind of feelings. I personally was never like that, but I can understand why a kid might feel that and maybe all they needed was someone to explain to them why what they're feeling is wrong and serve as a positive role model in their life.