Incels:

[Theda Baratheon]

7 hours ago, Liffguard said:

The Contrapoints video on incels spent a fair bit of time on this, and I thought it was an interesting look into their mindset. She referred to it as digital self-harm. A lot of them go to these sites specifically because of how horrible it makes them feel, because it reaffirms for them that their bitterness, misogyny and self-hatred is enlightened. It allows them a certain illusion of control over their misery. Sure, they're miserable, but they're right to feel miserable, and everyone else who isn't is labouring under a delusion, and the proof is in all these other people confirming how worthless they are. It's a vicious self-reinforcing downward spiral.

I will admit, I do feel some small sympathy for them, despite how horribly they treat others. If the movement had existed fifteen years ago, I could see my past self getting sucked in. When I see incels nowadays, there's an element of there but for the grace of God go I. To be clear though, whatever sympathy I feel for them is massively overshadowed by my sympathy for their victims. And feeling sympathy definitely mustn't be the same as indulging them.

Apart from the few who actually do go out there and kill or attack or make women uncomfortable I think the biggest victims of their shit are themselves. I suppose that’s an interesting point about controlling the misery but it’s bloody horrible really. Just a loop of misery. 

[Heartofice]

9 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I suppose there’s scope for why there is that certain subset of men that are prone to being radicalised but then we go in a circle, veering into territory explaining and justifying their actions because mans somehow unique place in society feeling these awful things and come back around to the same statement I’ve made that women feel all those things too. 

To be honest I don't think its really all that relevant to keep coming back to what women do, and using that as a baseline to understand why there are young men who pick up bad ideologies and go off and do something abhorrent and violent. Women don't end up doing that in almost any walk of life, and I'd suggest it's because men and women are really not the same in a number of different ways. 

7 hours ago, Liffguard said:

The Contrapoints video on incels spent a fair bit of time on this, and I thought it was an interesting look into their mindset. She referred to it as digital self-harm. A lot of them go to these sites specifically because of how horrible it makes them feel, because it reaffirms for them that their bitterness, misogyny and self-hatred is enlightened. It allows them a certain illusion of control over their misery. Sure, they're miserable, but they're right to feel miserable, and everyone else who isn't is labouring under a delusion, and the proof is in all these other people confirming how worthless they are. It's a vicious self-reinforcing downward spiral.

Yeah it is a really poisonous self reinforcing circle jerk from what I've seen. It really is hard to understand the mentality of people who are so fuelled with rage and self hatred and bitterness at the world around them. I don't think it's about giving them sympathy, but if you want less people to get sucked into these kinda realms then some effort to understand the forces that are at play that lead to young men getting to that point is important. 
 

[Theda Baratheon]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

To be honest I don't think its really all that relevant to keep coming back to what women do, and using that as a baseline to understand why there are young men who pick up bad ideologies and go off and do something abhorrent and violent. Women don't end up doing that in almost any walk of life, and I'd suggest it's because men and women are really not the same in a number of different ways. 

Yeah it is a really poisonous self reinforcing circle jerk from what I've seen. It really is hard to understand the mentality of people who are so fuelled with rage and self hatred and bitterness at the world around them. I don't think it's about giving them sympathy, but if you want less people to get sucked into these kinda realms then some effort to understand the forces that are at play that lead to young men getting to that point is important. 
 

To be honest, I’d say you’re being needlessly dismissive. As I said before, it was a woman who actually COINED the term incel proving women feel the same kind of social isolation, self loathing, frustration etc. 
I’d argue it’s a very valid part of the discussion if you’re trying to figure out why it is that young men do something, to look at other people who feel the same things that don’t act in that same way. 
I “keep coming back” to what women do because I’m a woman and I’ve personally shared that I have some of the same circumstances that male incels do and yet have never felt the need to funnel those feelings into something truly ugly and violent. 
So the crux of my original posts was that I don’t feel any sympathy for them and that the subject really frustrates me. 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

To be honest, I’d say you’re being needlessly dismissive. 

I think the dismissive thing to do is say 'oh well women don't act like this so I have no sympathy'. I think that misses the point. 
 

[Relic]

7 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

I think i will go sit away from the internet now and read lest I completely lose my shit.

Yeah, you should probably do that. 

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I think the dismissive thing to do is say 'oh well women don't act like this so I have no sympathy'. I think that misses the point. 
 

What point is it missing? 

[Alarich II]

47 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

What point is it missing? 

My guess is that you are talking past each other and I'll not answer for HoI, but the point as I see it is that because we live in a sexist society, men are expected to deal differently with emotions than women. So when we talk about how some young men feel and what we can do about it to prevent their radicalization, it is not really helpful to reiterate the point "I'm a woman and I feel this too". That's like me saying in a discussion on gender pay gap, that although women get low-balled in salary negotiations, I am a man and I get lowballed too, yet here I am, running my own business. That would not be very helpful in general even if for some women adopting "male" strategies work. 

Violence (against others) and radicalization is overwhelmingly a problem in male adolescents which means that we'll have to look into male socialisation and social constructs of masculinity. Of course sympathy for these guys is neither necessary nor helpful, but an understanding how they ended up where they are might help to prevent others from slipping. And one of the things we need to understand is that men deal differently with negative emotions than women, and especially the more destructive outlets to these emotions are going to be different (harming others vs. self-harm), so what worked for you or didn't is not really applicable for those men we are talking about.

[Heartofice]

Thanks @Alarich II you got what I was pointing to, think you summed it up. 

What I'm getting at is that there are a number of factors going into what causes guys to become incel, or to take it broadly, to check out of society or worse become radicalised, that predominantly affect males. In that sense stating that women don't react in the same way doesn't really have much relevance, and is almost kind of offensive. In the same way if you were having a conversation about domestic abuse and how women are affected and someone pops up to say 'men are the victims of abuse too!' (ironically something often brought up on incel forums). 

I think it's important to understand why those people who  are radicalised and taken to extremes are almost entirely men. 
 

45 minutes ago, Alarich II said:

Violence (against others) and radicalization is overwhelmingly a problem in male adolescents which means that we'll have to look into male socialisation and social constructs of masculinity. 

What is actually quite interesting about Incel forums and people who identify as incel is they have really little issue discussing their problems with each other and opening up about them, they don't feel afflicted by 'toxic masculinity'. 

There are some real contradicting messages in society when it comes to masculinity. For a lot of incels they are angry at a society that has sought to feminise them and make them softer and more emotional, all the while not realising that its the macho guys getting all the women. There are a lot of similarities with other extremists groups, they imagine that society is constructed in a way that is bad for them, they either want to tear it down or just escape from it all together. 

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

For a lot of incels they are angry at a society that has sought to feminise them and make them softer and more emotional, all the while not realising that its the macho guys getting all the women. 

There are so many things wrong with this sentence that I don't even know where to start. You are basically summarizing what Incels seem to believe, but doing so in a way that defends their views? 

[Crixus]

I just find it bizarre that stuff like being 'more emotional' is categorised as being feminine??!!! There seems to lie the problem in a nutshell. Especially since incels seem to constantly and overwhelmingly function on a range of extremely negative... emotions. How is that different from being 'more emotional'? In fact, I'd say it's taking emotions to the extreme.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

There are so many things wrong with this sentence that I don't even know where to start. You are basically summarizing what Incels seem to believe, but doing so in a way that defends their views? 

Sure the way I phrased makes it sound like its a fact. I know it's not. I'm not defending their views. 

I do think like a lot of things there is an element of truth in there however. We as a society have tried to push back against the traditional masculine stereotypes and have tried to encourage men to be softer and more open, you could say more feminine. Add in that society in general is kind of confused as to what role men have, men having very few positive role models and you have a lot of guys who have no idea how they should live or what to aspire to be.
All the while they see all the girls they find attractive dating borish brutes, 'Chads' who don't really appear to have got the memo and they think the whole thing is set up against them

I think essentially they have taken something that has an element of truth in it, and taken it to its extremes and learnt the wrong lessons. They feel lost and need someone to explain why their life is so shit and what they should do about it. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

So of it's mostly men acting violently about being celibate, and you want to stop the violence, you don't think it's useful to look at celibate women and look for patterns/differences?

Huh.

[Heartofice]

Just now, larrytheimp said:

So of it's mostly men acting violently about being celibate, and you want to stop the violence, you don't think it's useful to look at celibate women and look for patterns/differences?

Huh.

No, because men are generally more violent. Men and women are really not the same. I don't see the value in saying 'oh women don't react like that' 

[Theda Baratheon]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

No, because men are generally more violent. Men and women are really not the same. I don't see the value in saying 'oh women don't react like that' 

Because you don’t really seem to see the value in a woman’s perspective. I’m sorry I offended you with mine. 
 

if you are genuinely scratching your head as to why men act a certain way and one of the ways they act is to be hateful, shut down conversation and only interact with each other making themselves miserable, then I’d wager there’s at least some value in understanding why other people don’t react that way in order to understand why men do. 
 

I think your domestic abuse analogy is quite disingenuous as well. 

if you don’t women women to be part of the conversation then that’s up to you. Simply repeating “but men are angry and men and women are different” is hardly getting any closer to genuinely solving any problems anyway. 

[Theda Baratheon]

It also just isn’t a true reflection of reality to say that women are only dating hot, boorish men. That’s a constructed narrative. Hot people dating hot people is one thing. There’s a real problem with entitlement. If someone’s hobbies only include being inside and nothing social then chances are they aren’t going to meet people, especially not physically fit objectively hot people. Their problem is they hate women in all forms. The beautiful ones for some perceived grievance of only picking the jock over them and every other woman for being ugly, or unintelligent, or useless, or “emotional” when as a poster mentioned above, these types of men are some of the most emotional people I can think of. It’s just incredibly negative aggressive emotions. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

52 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

We as a society have tried to push back against the traditional masculine stereotypes and have tried to encourage men to be softer and more open, you could say more feminine. Add in that society in general is kind of confused as to what role men have, men having very few positive role models and you have a lot of guys who have no idea how they should live or what to aspire to be.

And just like that sympathy becomes apologia and incels become proof for why gender traditiomalism is sorely needed.

People who had the overtly misogynistic mindset have always existed.

It's just that they less reason to complain when more we're shamed for not getting and dependant on men for source of income.

Incels in the past would be able to more get a wife who may have not loved, but faced social isolation, if they didn't marry them.

Yes, society does play a role in shaping the views of incels.

But not because they moved away from gender-sterotyping.

46 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Their problem is they hate women in all forms. The beautiful ones for some perceived grievance of only picking the jock over them and every other woman for being ugly, or unintelligent, or useless, or “emotional” when as a poster mentioned above, these types of men are some of the most emotional people I can think of.

”Ha you can only get a land-whale what a loser.” says the out of shape incel who has no one.

Truly though their complaints are not just about being able to couple with any woman.

They’re animosity comes to even who may shack up with them because even though they're worthless, being with a ugly woman is beneath them.

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

I just find it bizarre that stuff like being 'more emotional' is categorised as being feminine??!!! There seems to lie the problem in a nutshell. Especially since incels seem to constantly and overwhelmingly function on a range of extremely negative... emotions. How is that different from being 'more emotional'? In fact, I'd say it's taking emotions to the extreme.

Because apparently anger doesn't register as an emotion, so when men lash out in anger and become violent they're not being overly emotional like say a woman crying.

This is the best logic I could give for this mindset.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

For a lot of incels they are angry at a society that has sought to feminise them and make them softer and more emotional, all the while not realising that its the macho guys getting all the women.

Bullshit.

This idea seems to literally posit the majority of guys in general--who have managed to find relationships in much of the developed world--are the same asshat jocks you’d see in a movie about high school.

Take the US. The clear majority of adults are married or dating 

The majority of adults in the UK are dating or married.

The macho guys aren’t “getting all the women.” 

[rotting sea cow]

I had no clue what incels were until this thread. I had to google it.  WTF is going with this world? To a point I understand and I pity these guys. The feeling of rejection, not only by women but also by society in general is difficult to bear and easy to turn it against the world.

I think even if dangerous, it shows how society is failing people. How society is radicalizing people and turning them against each other.

To show that this is not exclusive of men. A female contact who previously was very enthusiastic in the feminist arena, now has fully embraced the "depopulation movement". From reasonable worries, she has became more and more radical, flirting with fascists ideas like supporting forced sterilizations (both men and women) and being almost jolly at every spike of covid-19. After I shared an articled that covid-19 could cause infertility (basically to scare some other contacts), she replied with a "cool!". I unfriended her.

 

[Werthead]

The incel problem is linked to the same causal factor as a lot of other ones: externalisation. Human beings, as individuals and in wider communities, are very, very bad at saying, "There's a problem here and it's me and I need to change." Offer them an alternative, external target for whatever problems they are facing - the poor, the homeless, immigrants, people of the opposite gender being superficial - and they'll seize on that like a drowning man to a life preserver.

A lot of incels have painted a picture of themselves as "nice guys" who are quiet, caring, introspective, intellectual etc when that might not be how they come across, which might be a lot more off-putting. That can be worked on by becoming more social, talking to more people, overcoming nervousness around women etc by treating them like human beings and taking their views on board. However, this can be awkward, uncomfortable and far outside their comfort zone. It is much easier to simply "blame superficial women for only dating guys who look like models but have the brains of a haddock and leaving us deep thinkers with hidden depths on the shelf" and get support from that POV from other people thinking the same thing on the internet. And of course that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and after a few weeks on incel message boards calling women "females" like a Ferengi and reading in awe about "pick-up artist," they've pretty much killed stone dead their chances of forming a relationship with a woman ever again, which just "proves" they were right in the first place.

[Alarich II]

12 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

So of it's mostly men acting violently about being celibate, and you want to stop the violence, you don't think it's useful to look at celibate women and look for patterns/differences?

I actually don't think that "Incels", if they act violently, do so just because they are celibate. I mean, this is their n°1 subject, but if they had a regular functioning social environment, like being part of a football club, runnig a dnd circle, going out with friends... being celibate would probably not be the pinnacle of their social identity. I mean, there are many men who are celibate, voluntary or not, who are not descending into a mad spiral of hate, self-loathing and violence.

If we want to stop men slipping into "incelism" then it's probabl more useful to look at the social norms an restrictions directed at men and work on that, rather than saying, hey, just act a bit more like women. Apart from that, not all "female-associated" strategies of coping with negative emotions are going to be desirable (like self-harm, developing eating disorders etc.). Okay - that's still better than murdering people and that's no small thing. OTOH it would be probably easier and maybe more productive to offer a male perspective on how to deal with negative emotions without becoming an asshole.

 

Also, as a general point, can we perhaps stop with this old cliché that men are less emotional than women? We all have emotions, most anthropologists will tell us that humans, male or female, can identify the basic emotions of other humans just by looking at their facial expressions. This is a human constant. The difference in men an women is how we are taught to deal with these emotions - by our parents, peers, and others who act as stand-in for our societies cultural norms.

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 minutes ago, Werthead said:

A lot of incels have painted a picture of themselves as "nice guys" who are quiet, caring, introspective, intellectual etc when that might not be how they come across, which might be a lot more off-putting.

“I’m such a nice guy when I see a guy abuse a woman my first thought is why she isn’t sleeping with me? And I think women only go for assholes which basically means I think the majority of guys are assholes.”  Says the “nice guy.” As he stalks a woman he’s currently infatuated with.