Incels:

[Week]

"Interesting" to see more understanding and compassion for incels - a loose collective of folks responsible for terror attacks worldwide - than for victims of racism and state violence. 

[maarsen]

59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You’re putting the cart before the horse.  People are drawn to those who are confident.  Confidence comes from comfort with self.  So, confident people are seen as “dominant” because people are naturally drawn to confident people.

People are drawn to those that project confidence. Believe me, even those who you think are the most confident are those who just hide their insecurity better. The people I have met who actually are deeply confident tend to be fools and imbeciles. Even as I write this I am insecure about how you will respond.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

"Interesting" to see more understanding and compassion for incels - a loose collective of folks responsible for terror attacks worldwide - than for victims of racism and state violence. 

No.  Attempting to understand is not offering apologia or compassion for anyone who attacks anyone else.  

Any more than attempting to understand where Mulsim/Christian extremism comes from is offering apologia or compassion to those who hurt others because of those beliefs.

[Week]

5 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Surely the optimal solution would be to provide a healthy, nurturing alternative, while also advocating for policies that support rectifying centuries of racial, social, and economic injustice among historically marginalized groups, yes?

Sure, one group represents significant minorities across the world and has been disadvantaged, scorned, and attacked ongoing for centuries.

The other is a group of disaffected twerps that lashes out violently - conducting acts of terror - in response to perceived disadvantage and persecution.

I wouldn't generally put you, GW, in a group that lacks awareness or compassion for victims of racism and state violence writ large.

[karaddin]

Sex bots aren't going to fix the problem because it's got very little to do with actual sexual desire. You can see that in the way they hold the idea of seeing a sex worker in contempt - it's about what their inability to acquire sex through their masculine appeal says about their masculinity - ie it's lacking. Any other source of sexual satisfaction doesn't address this need, so won't be a solution. 

Even if you step it down to the level where they're struggling and haven't chosen to deal with it through hate - these men are lonely and starved for intimacy and a confidant. A sex bot is just glorified (and probably more sexually satisfying) masturbation, but it would take a full blown virtual girlfriend to start to address their needs. This group can benefit from seeing sex workers though, sex workers wind up doing a lot of listening and really deserve to be seen as (and remunerated as) partial counselors as well. It can be the lifeline of intimacy someone needs until they get their shit together. Unfortunately we stigmatise doing this which functions as encouragement to wind up in the incel lane.

[Week]

16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  Attempting to understand is not offering apologia or compassion for anyone who attacks anyone else.  

Any more than attempting to understand where Mulsim/Christian extremism comes from is offering apologia or compassion to those who hurt others because of those beliefs.

I explicitly stated "compassion". I did not state that attempting to understand *was* compassion. Attempting to understand - sure - have a great time. I'm also drawing a contrast to how issues of race and state violence are discussed as there is often, not always, less compassion and understanding offered than here. I believe that is worth considering before discussion of outreach and policy to ameliorate (predominantly) self-inflicted injury within a subset of cis white men.

[Relic]

48 minutes ago, Week said:

"Interesting" to see more understanding and compassion for incels - a loose collective of folks responsible for terror attacks worldwide - than for victims of racism and state violence. 

Where and from whom? Please point them out instead of broad brushing everyone taking part in this discussion. 

[Guy Kilmore]

43 minutes ago, Week said:

"Interesting" to see more understanding and compassion for incels - a loose collective of folks responsible for terror attacks worldwide - than for victims of racism and state violence. 

I'm interested in breaking the chains of violence that destroy all of our lives.  People are able to contribute to that in different ways.  If we are interested in breaking those chains it is necessary to effect change in those that do the oppression.  In some ways, they are victims of that self same oppression.  (If you are a feminist for instance, confronting toxic masculinity and attempting to curtail it's spread would definitely fit in that wheel house.)

My line of work puts me in contact with many young men and teenagers who are on the cusp of this kind of lifestyle.  If I didn't act with "compassion" in an attempt to curtail it, then I am really being, at best, complacent. 

Also, expressing an acknowledgement and empathy for the why and where for of where people come from is not the same as condoning one's actions.  You can do one, while at the same time condemning what someone has done.

[argonak]

17 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Bro, these are not new problems. Or even really 'problems' on the scale that introcultists should be pitied for their nightmarish worldviews. Gimmie a fucking break. Some people are rotten, and the rest of society having a perfectly natural envious/parasitic relationship with its popular figures goes back to the stone age. What the fuck do you think a Pharaoh is? Or his fine ass bitches for that matter?

Regressive elements should be corrected, not coddled.

Its a mental health issue and should be treated as such.  

[argonak]

1 hour ago, Week said:

"Interesting" to see more understanding and compassion for incels - a loose collective of folks responsible for terror attacks worldwide - than for victims of racism and state violence. 

Or you know, we could be understanding and compassionate for both?  I despise systemic racism and state violence.  I also want to help people who have mental issues that I can easily see myself having had if my circumstances were different.

Incels aren't garbage.  They're just broken.  We should be talking about how to fix them, not how to throw them away.   People say the same thing about the criminal under class in america, you know, and we've been throwing them away into prisons for years without it doing a thing to fix the problems that drove them to their choices.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

Or you know, we could be understanding and compassionate for both?  I despise systemic racism and state violence.  I also want to help people who have mental issues that I can easily see myself having had if my circumstances were different.

Incels aren't garbage.  They're just broken.  We should be talking about how to fix them, not how to throw them away.   People say the same thing about the criminal under class in america, you know, and we've been throwing them away into prisons for years without it doing a thing to fix the problems that drove them to their choices.

yeah, i agree with this, and although i find it very difficult to feel empathy with incel types, being compassionate and believing that everyone or almost everyone has the capacity of changing and rehabilitate is a core aspect of being leftist or "progressive".

we have to fight these feelings of exclussion, even when i recognize its incredibly hard (at least to me)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

yeah, i agree with this, and although i find it very difficult to feel empathy with incel types, being compassionate and believing that everyone or almost everyone has the capacity of changing and rehabilitate is a core aspect of being leftist or "progressive".

we have to fight these feelings of exclussion, even when i recognize its incredibly hard (at least to me)

I see where you are coming from but I want to say being compassionate and fighting the desire to exclude should be core to being human.  It saddens me that it isn’t.  
 

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

Its a mental health issue and should be treated as such.  

Pray tell, which diagnosable condition is it that these submissives subversives have in common that makes them act in such intolerable patterns and what treatment do I prescribe?

[Relic]

21 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Pray tell, which diagnosable condition is it that these submissives subversives have in common that makes them act in such intolerable patterns and what treatment do I prescribe?

narcissism. 

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, Relic said:

narcissism. 

Shock therapy then. By way of execution.

But I'm just a femoid so one of you human men will need to draw up the treatment plan. Don't forget the adrenochrome.

[argonak]

38 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Pray tell, which diagnosable condition is it that these submissives subversives have in common that makes them act in such intolerable patterns and what treatment do I prescribe?

I'm not a psychologist. 

When someone goes out and kills a dozen people and claims the reason is that he's a virgin that looks like a mental illness to me.   It seems much the same as when someone decides to murder a dozen people because his imaginary friend told him to.  Or when someone murders a man on the street for the $20 in his pocket.  In all cases its someone who is fundamentally broken from regular society's perspective, and I don't know what else you want to call it other than a mental illness. 

As a society we have a lot of choices on what to do with these folks, for many decades we tossed them in prison when they finally broke enough rules for us to bother, and then we pretended they didn't exist until we felt obligated to let them out.  Whereupon they would usually do the same thing again and we'd throw them away for good.  I it would be a better service to all of us to find folks who aren't fitting in, whether it be incels, criminals, or all the other left behind folks, and help them.

What would you want to do about it instead? 

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, argonak said:

I'm not a psychologist. 

When someone goes out and kills a dozen people and claims the reason is that he's a virgin that looks like a mental illness to me.   It seems much the same as when someone decides to murder a dozen people because his imaginary friend told him to.  Or when someone murders a man on the street for the $20 in his pocket.  In all cases its someone who is fundamentally broken from regular society's perspective, and I don't know what else you want to call it other than a mental illness. 

As a society we have a lot of choices on what to do with these folks, for many decades we tossed them in prison when they finally broke enough rules for us to bother, and then we pretended they didn't exist until we felt obligated to let them out.  Whereupon they would usually do the same thing again and we'd throw them away for good.  I it would be a better service to all of us to find folks who aren't fitting in, whether it be incels, criminals, or all the other left behind folks, and help them.

What would you want to do about it instead? 

An illness is a diagnosable insult within the body's natural systems. It can be isolated and understood, if not always treated. You are taking broad personality traits and calling them symptoms of illness without, as you say, a medical background or really any hard data. 

Some people are bad people, that is the human condition. Not a medical one. 

Do not attempt to compare petty criminality (which you rightfully point out often has systemic triggers) with mass murder and purposeful anti-human ideology that encourages mass murder.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

yeah, i agree with this, and although i find it very difficult to feel empathy with incel types, being compassionate and believing that everyone or almost everyone has the capacity of changing and rehabilitate is a core aspect of being leftist or "progressive".

we have to fight these feelings of exclussion, even when i recognize its incredibly hard (at least to me)

Eh, not really for being a “leftist”.

Maybe a social-progressive.

And any case, believing people could rehabilitate doesn’t preclude their exclusion in any context.

Their exclusion could be/often is the thing that’d drive them to actually change.

If no one—at least in my immediate community—will treat me negatively for being a horrible bigot why should I change?

2 hours ago, argonak said:

Incels aren't garbage.  They're just broken.  We should be talking about how to fix them, not how to throw them away.   

No they’re garbage.

I would say they’re not fine people at least.

Seeing them as such doesn’t preclude seeing they could change.

2 hours ago, argonak said:

People say the same thing about the criminal under class in america, you know, and we've been throwing them away into prisons for years without it doing a thing to fix the problems that drove them to their choices.

Literally no one here has argued that incels need to be sent to prison.

Just acknowledging bigots who’d generally like to enslave half of humanity  are bad people is not saying they need to sent to the gulags.

2 hours ago, argonak said:

I also want to help people who have mental issues that I can easily see myself having had if my circumstances were different.

I think looking at their issues purely through the lenses of mental issues is wrong.

It kinda ignores the political and social ideological bents of society that does help funnel these types.

Bents that are usually grounded in traditional views on sex and gender.

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, argonak said:

When someone goes out and kills a dozen people and claims the reason is that he's a virgin that looks like a mental illness to me. 

Literally millions have been murdered because of their race due to believing  in conspiracy theories that sound insane.

Bigotry can lead to great acts of violence.

Will all white-supremacists kill a child for the color of their skin?

Of course not.

But when that does happen does that horrific act of violence proof of any discernible mental illness from said white supremacist?

No.

 

[Guy Kilmore]

I always struggle when people call someone a garbage human or that people are just bad.  I think that is a descriptor that can only apply to maybe only a few individuals.  I really struggle with using it as a broad brush.  Now maybe, the person using it, as a direct feeling of pain and trauma from individuals who have engaged in behaviors where labeling them as garbage or bad that dehumanizing helps with their coping and healing.  That I can get and have empathy for.  If someone is not in that category, dehumanizing someone really strikes me as an unproductive use of emotional resources to affect change.  At the end of the day, I would urge people to hate the behaviors and try not to hate the people.  (I find the allure in indulging in that self-righteous anger leaves us really vulnerable to the poison that can sit within us and prevent us from being better people.)

Toxic Masculinity/Incel/Whatever is a mental health issue, even though it might not be a medical diagnoseable one.  In my experience a ton of them meet the criteria for depression and anxiety, maybe NPD.  To even work and interact with someone like me, you have to have a long term mental health disability. Depression in men is horribly dangerous as men are not really taught how to be emotionally in tune, so anxiety and sadness comes out as aggression.  The expression of aggression then gets turned outward (violence and assault) or inward (addiction and suicide).  It is why suicide rates are climbing in adult males of a certain age (40s to 50s I believe, I don't have the numbers right with me).