Incels:

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Depression in men is horribly dangerous as men are not really taught how to be emotionally in tune, so anxiety and sadness comes out as aggression.  The expression of aggression then gets turned outward (violence and assault) or inward (addiction and suicide).

Dr. Melfi always told me depression is rage turned inward.  Seems to me "incels" or whatever could use some more of that.

[Jace, Extat]

According to the dogma of these poor poor men I am less than an animal. Their rampant sex fantasies equate in their minds to genetic entitlement and you ask me to meet this horrific worldview with something other than I have? No. That is a self-identified threat. I did nothing to provoke that. The society I live in did nothing to provoke that. Fantastic indulgences in anonymous settings and personal ugliness created this cancer. Plenty of people get depressed. Plenty of people got bullied or abused or neglected. This is inexcusable behavior. Stop excusing it. Don't try and rehabilitate the sadistically impotent. It's fucking gross.

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I always struggle when people call someone a garbage human or that people are just bad.  I think that is a descriptor that can only apply to maybe only a few individuals.  I really struggle with using it as a broad brush.  Now maybe, the person using it, as a direct feeling of pain and trauma from individuals who have engaged in behaviors where labeling them as garbage or bad that dehumanizing helps with their coping and healing. 

I don’t think it’s dehumanizing to call extreme bigots as bad people.

15 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

At the end of the day, I would urge people to hate the behaviors and try not to hate the people.  (I find the allure in indulging in that self-righteous anger leaves us really vulnerable to the poison that can sit within us and prevent us from being better people.)

I think the way to clamp down on certain behaviors is to stigmatize the people who do such to a reasonable degree.

21 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Toxic Masculinity/Incel/Whatever is a mental health issue

Not automatically no.

Gross misogyny was more prevalent in developed countries in the past.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Shock therapy then. By way of execution.

But I'm just a femoid so one of you human men will need to draw up the treatment plan. Don't forget the adrenochrome.

What's a female? 

12 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

According to the dogma of these poor poor men I am less than an animal. Their rampant sex fantasies equate in their minds to genetic entitlement and you ask me to meet this horrific worldview with something other than I have? No. That is a self-identified threat. I did nothing to provoke that. The society I live in did nothing to provoke that. Fantastic indulgences in anonymous settings and personal ugliness created this cancer. Plenty of people get depressed. Plenty of people got bullied or abused or neglected. This is inexcusable behavior. Stop excusing it. Don't try and rehabilitate the sadistically impotent. It's fucking gross.

You aren't wrong. 

[Guy Kilmore]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t think it’s dehumanizing to call extreme bigots as bad people.

I think the way to clamp down on certain behaviors is to stigmatize the people who do such to a reasonable degree.

Not automatically no.

Gross misogyny was more prevalent in developed countries in the past.

You said garbage people.  

Prove that?  In the research on the steps to change, stigmatizing people doesn't seem to come up for me or in any of my professional training.  I do agree we should be intolerant of destructive behaviors.  I am simply disagreeing in how to show that.

Mental Health Issues are maladaptive issues that lead to mental health crisis and diagnoseable concerns or are concerns generated from the behaviors of those with diagnoseable mental health concerns.  If you don't see the trauma and violence that bigotry/Toxic Masculinity cause as a mental health concern, then that tells me you lack the understanding of what Mental Health is.

[Guy Kilmore]

15 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

According to the dogma of these poor poor men I am less than an animal. Their rampant sex fantasies equate in their minds to genetic entitlement and you ask me to meet this horrific worldview with something other than I have? No. That is a self-identified threat. I did nothing to provoke that. The society I live in did nothing to provoke that. Fantastic indulgences in anonymous settings and personal ugliness created this cancer. Plenty of people get depressed. Plenty of people got bullied or abused or neglected. This is inexcusable behavior. Stop excusing it. Don't try and rehabilitate the sadistically impotent. It's fucking gross.

It is all of that.  I agree one hundred percent.  It is why I dedicated my livelihood in combatting it, among other things.

I do disagree with the bolded.  Our society has some pretty disgusting views on the relationships between men and women, on gender constructs and supporting some pretty toxic positions.  All of that contributes to these behaviors.  I feel that way about it.  I do.  I also am not saying that you can't have these feelings.  I do too, it scares and disgusts me, the behaviors and those that can be victimized by it.

Displaying empathy is not excusing.  Heck, I am not asking you to display empathy.  The first step in any form of rehabilitation is accepting the consequences of ones actions.

At the same time, when I am working with those at risk or maybe on the edge of this lifestyle.  I have an opportunity for some kind of change.  What do I do?  I am voluntary, if I call them a bad person and disgusting, I have shut down my opportunity to facilitate positive change and growth.  I want to win this fight.

[Relic]

1 minute ago, Guy Kilmore said:

It is all of that.  I agree one hundred percent.  It is why I dedicated my livelihood in combatting it, among other things.

I do disagree with the bolded.  Our society has some pretty disgusting views on the relationships between men and women, on gender constructs and supporting some pretty toxic positions.  All of that contributes to these behaviors.  I feel that way about it.  I do.  I also am not saying that you can't have these feelings.  I do too, it scares and disgusts me, the behaviors and those that can be victimized by it.

Displaying empathy is not excusing.  Heck, I am not asking you to display empathy.  The first step in any form of rehabilitation is accepting the consequences of ones actions.

At the same time, when I am working with those at risk or maybe on the edge of this lifestyle.  I have an opportunity for some kind of change.  What do I do?  I am voluntary, if I call them a bad person and disgusting, I have shut down my opportunity to facilitate positive change and growth.  I want to win this fight.

I respect what you are saying. My question is, do you think you;d feel different if you were a woman?

[Guy Kilmore]

19 minutes ago, Relic said:

I respect what you are saying. My question is, do you think you;d feel different if you were a woman?

Two points

1. Most likely and the trauma of experiencing that level of vitriol is real generating real feelings, which, I did and do acknowledge.  If I was not clear on that, my apologies.  I have perpetrators as much as victims on my caseload.
2. The approaches that I use in my field are taught and modeled for me by much more capable women than I.  The majority of my coworkers are women and have to confront these same issues, something of which we constantly touch base and check in with each other.  Again, my approaches and practices are reflected by these colleagues.  I wish more men did the work that I do, it is needed.

I'm getting on my high horse.  Cis-gendered men really can't afford to call these people garbage or just hate.  We have to clean our own backyard and address Toxic Masculinity in our culture, which, on some level, means engagement.  Either through the interaction with other men, talking and calling out other men, and reaching out to at risk youth in some form of mentorship and guidance.  I want this nonsense to stop, we can't let women keep doing all the heavy lifting (caregiving/social worker/therapy/teaching) and need to be a little more emotionally rich than just responding with anger and aggression.

I hope that clarifies this position on the matter.

ETA:  I am sorry if I am getting disjointed, I am trying to do a referral at the same time.

ETA2:  I tried, and probably failed, to edit my mess of a post.

[Varysblackfyre321]

43 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

You said garbage people.  

Not exactly, I agreed with the sentiment that they’re garbage.

I don’t really see the issue in this.

People who’d enslave/subjugate/brutalize entire pockets of a population for ingrained characteristics are bad people.

Now saying that;

43 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Prove that?  In the research on the steps to change, stigmatizing people doesn't seem to come up for me or in any of my professional training. 

From a social point of view?

I would say the proof comes in our present society.

Were there less people white-supremchists before or after a large enough society started to sour to such sentiments, and wearing klansmen robes in public was greeted with more animosity?

43 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Mental Health Issues are maladaptive issues that lead to mental health crisis and diagnoseable concerns or are concerns generated from the behaviors of those with diagnoseable mental health concerns.  If you don't see the trauma and violence that bigotry/Toxic Masculinity cause as a mental health concern, then that tells me you lack the understanding of what Mental Health is.

Me saying grossly misogynistic behaviors can’t be looked at through the lenses of people who have a mental illness is not saying bigotry and toxic masculinity as something that doesn’t hurt people.

24 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I'm getting on my high horse.  Cis-gendered men really can't afford to call these people garbage or just hate. 

Yes they can.

In addition to all the things you’ve listed, developing that good people do not think/behave in such an extreme way helps.

I think most people do want to be good. 

[Guy Kilmore]

30 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not exactly, I agreed with the sentiment that they’re garbage.

I don’t really see the issue in this.

People who’d enslave/subjugate/brutalize entire pockets of a population for ingrained characteristics are bad people.

Now saying that;

From a social point of view?

I would say the proof comes in our present society.

Were there less people white-supremchists before or after a large enough society started to sour to such sentiments, and wearing klansmen robes in public was greeted with more animosity?  

Me saying grossly misogynistic behaviors can’t be looked at through the lenses of people who have a mental illness is not saying bigotry and toxic masculinity as something that doesn’t hurt people.

Yes they can.

In addition to all the things you’ve listed, developing that good people do not think/behave in such an extreme way helps.

I think most people do want to be good. 

So thought experiment and not research, got it.  (There is a ton of research on how to facilitate change on a societal and individual level.)

Do you think our friends of color would say that racism has decreased?  I live in Minneapolis, I don't think I would find people saying that it has.  It has just changed.  Like hood wearing decreased, but, there are sure a lot of red hats out there.  So at best Stigmatization got people to change their dress code, in your thought experiment.  I want to change the drives and motivations.

I mean if we want to talk about history, many of the marginalized groups are still here in the face of strident and off times violent stigmatization, much to the credit of these marginalized groups.

Again.  Mental Health is more than Mental Illness.  I just think you don't know what this means, nor are you demonstrating an understanding of trauma and how it is viewed on a mental health level. 

Most people think they are good.  Big difference.  Telling someone that they are bad, or a garbage person, doesn't facilitate change.  Most people, when confronted with direct criticism such as that, tend to circle the wagons emotionally and shut out the people who are talking like that.  Heck we are biologically programmed to do that.  I mean, there are months long of conversations in the politics thread just about that phenomenon.  

If you are looking for change in an individual, you do that through leveraging your personal relationship, drawing emotional connections, and demonstrating a healthier path to walk.  I would say that you get more mileage out of calling a behavior as garbage and not the person.

 

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh, not really for being a “leftist”.

Umm that is the way i see it. You can try to change my opinnion if you want, im open to hearing arguments against that. 

[Starkess]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

I respect what you are saying. My question is, do you think you;d feel different if you were a woman?

It's kind of insulting to imply that women aren't capable of understanding societal mores and pressures that can help create these toxic groups.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Umm that is the way i see it. You can try to change my opinnion if you want, im open to hearing arguments against that. 

The position of everyone or almost can change really isn’t.

It doesn’t rely on economic perspective that can be looked at as “leftist”

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

So thought experiment and not research, got it.  (There is a ton of research on how to facilitate change on a societal and individual level.)

No more looking at history.

”Don’t shop at any store that won’t call you sir.” was roughly the call of many boycotts.

It was a call to Disassociate with people who’d refuse to see as a human being even in terms of buying something from them.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Do you think our friends of color would say that racism has decreased? 

You had no way of knowing this but I’m black, and I have little shame in calling people who would kill/subjugate/ me or family as bad people for wanting to do that.

I’m not dehumanizing them. I’m saying them dehumanizing me for my race, makes them bad people.

I would say it has decreased in recent decades.

I’d say it is on the rise again through more people showing tolerance for the worst forms of it, and thinking the bigotry either is good, or doesn’t make someone bad enough to dissociate with or repudiate.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Like hood wearing decreased, but, there are sure a lot of red hats out there. 

Now imagine the amount of red hats  worn if the Republican Party had condemned Trump after the start of his campaign.

This may be a thought experiment as well.

But I think it’s reasonable to guess it’d less.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Stigmatization got people to change their dress code, in your thought experiment.  I want to change the drives and motivations.

And to not hold as many open lynchings.

Or bomb as many churches.

And not want to be bigots.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I mean if we want to talk about history, many of the marginalized groups are still here in the face of strident and off times violent stigmatization, much to the credit of these marginalized groups.

 

Yes.

I see no reason for why facists, incels, and other extreme bigots should have an easier time.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Most people think they are good.  Big difference.  Telling someone that they are bad, or a garbage person, doesn't facilitate change. 

Telling them that their gross bigotry doesn’t make them a bad person doesn’t facilitate change.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

If you are looking for change in an individual, you do that through leveraging your personal relationship, drawing emotional connections, and demonstrating a healthier path to walk.  I would say that you get more mileage out of calling a behavior as garbage and not the person.

Agreed on using personal relationships as a tool can be effective tool individually.But societally how/why should that personal relationship matter as much if a community has already said your bigotry isn’t a personal fault.

Hell Hitler had a select few Jewish people he didn’t personally hate;https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-46192941

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Again.  Mental Health is more than Mental Illness.  I just think you don't know what this means, nor are you demonstrating an understanding of trauma and how it is viewed on a mental health level. 

To the bolded.

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Most people think they are good.  Big difference. 

Not necessarily contradicting me.

Most people think they are good true.

Now do good people wave nazi flags around, or lynch people? Also true.

[Relic]

16 minutes ago, Starkess said:

It's kind of insulting to imply that women aren't capable of understanding societal mores and pressures that can help create these toxic groups.

not what i was trying to imply at all. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

22 minutes ago, Starkess said:

It's kind of insulting to imply that women aren't capable of understanding societal mores and pressures that can help create these toxic groups.

I don’t think he was implying that.

More than that if Guy’s perspective would change if he was the primary target of the bigots in question.

@Relic am I correct?

[Starkess]

12 minutes ago, Relic said:

not what i was trying to imply at all. 

 

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t think he was implying that.

More than that if Guy’s perspective would change if he was the primary target of the bigots in question.

@Relic am I correct?

Right, sorry. I should have phrased it differently--while probably (and now confirmed) unintentionally, this line of reasoning makes me feel uncomfortable due to what could be seen as arguing for sort of correlation between gender and logic that would preclude someone reasoning in that way.

[karaddin]

I think what Relic was going for is what Jace had said she does feel - that being the target of a groups hate gives you a more direct connection to it and grounds for strong negative feelings on them - this would be applicable to all marginalized groups. I get why you're concerned about the potential for that narrative to raise it's head Starkess.

On Guy's point - I do think there need to be people taking on the burden of working with them and attempting to rehabilitate them back into pro-social society, and that the people doing this work probably need to avoid alienating them. Where I disagree is that society broadly should condemn them and make that condemnation clear.

As I've said already I have a lot of sympathy for men that are suffering on the path of mental struggles that leave then vulnerable to being recruited into the various manosphere movements, but that sympathy ends when they make the choice to externalise their issues and blame all women for their problems. They need to make the choice to return to their humanity and society, and the ostracism is one of the ways society tells them that their current path is unacceptable. It's when their wavering that those who choose to try rehabilitate them can make an impact, and I'm glad that there are people like Guy willing to step in and attempt that. I do not think it should ever be on the targets of their hate to do that though, so that is where it needs to be cis men doing the heavy lifting. Let's be real though, this shit is very frequently interwoven with racism as well - so that's probably predominantly cis white men that need to do it.

[Toth]

Have been following this thread with some interest and am very surprised about the conflict that came about here.

I think what has caused this is the notion of this mindset being the result of a mental illness instead of an ideology like any else. I can't really see it as anything other than an attempt to rationalize their woes by blaming society and women and while I see how difficult it is to break out of that mindset, it doesn't change that it's an ideology people embrace to justify their existing beliefs; the fact that they try to categorize people into some kind of attractiveness classifications is quite a red flag for that, it's really no different from how social darwinism has been created to justify racism and imperialism. And it's certainly no coincidence that neo-nazi groups have focused the last decades recruiting from the very same pool of isolated young outcasts, given how vulnerable they are to any group giving them any kind of validation for their anger, any easy answers that give them an easy out to not reflect on themselves, but instead hate some straw(wo)men instead. To prevent people falling into that trap, you have to show them alternative answers. But that's the difficulty of it, we showing pity here in the bubble of this forum can't reach them and like with everyone addicted to their own self-pity, they won't adopt a different world view from people they don't consider peers. And given how those falling into this pit by definition don't have much in terms of that, it's a pretty steep barrier to overcome.

And yes, I guess I can say that I myself belong to the category of people astonished that I never fell into that rabbit hole. Part of it certainly because I learned the term from people explaining what incels are, never through direct contact with the incel community, so I was warned beforehand about its silliness. But otherwise it's terrifying how many boxes I tick, being a white male introvert with no romantical experience or even social network, who has massive issues with his self-image. I mean for fuck's sake, I at one point made some silly number game looking at a demographic chart thinking that it should be mathematically impossible for me to get a partner due to there being more men than women and some guys just have to be left over if you pair everybody up. I'm thinking that's exactly the kind of spiral of self-pity these guys are in and the only difference is I'm simply too self-hating to ever hate anyone for my own flaws doing their thing.

[BigFatCoward]

Is this just/almost exclusively an american thing? I have never come across anybody or group that would fit what is being talked about here. 

[Jace, Extat]

11 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Is this just/almost exclusively an american thing? I have never come across anybody or group that would fit what is being talked about here. 

It's a MENTAL ILLNESS, data pending.