Incels:

[Guy Kilmore]

52 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

The only thing I'm saying is that the societal pressures that try to shoehorn women into the role of homemaker are the same ones shoehorning men into the role of provider. 

It's more difficult to fix the problem if we don't acknowledge the factors leading to the problem.

 

Agreed.  Which goes back to why I say it is important, for men, to leverage their relationships to evoke change in other men.

[BigFatCoward]

I cant imagine anything other than getting the horn when my wife's salary overtakes mine.

When we got together I made 4x what she makes, the only reason I still make slightly more is because I'm 9 years older so that much further on in my career.

That being said, having a comparable income does make things easy. There is no weary 'who pays more of the bill's' bullshit that some of my friends have. 

[S John]

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Agreed.  Which goes back to why I say it is important, for men, to leverage their relationships to evoke change in other men.

I think of ‘being a man’ as simply being reliable, responsible, and accountable to your family to the best of ones ability. 

Of course that definition can and should extend to simply ‘being an adult’, not exclusive to a male adult, but in the context of masculinity, income, and traditional gender roles within the home I’m content to embrace that outlook. Just take care of your responsibilities and don’t be a deadbeat. 

[Guy Kilmore]

3 minutes ago, S John said:

I think of ‘being a man’ as simply being reliable, responsible, and accountable to your family to the best of ones ability. 

Of course that definition can and should extend to simply ‘being an adult’, not exclusive to a male adult, but in the context of masculinity, income, and traditional gender roles within the home I’m content to embrace that outlook. Just take care of your responsibilities and don’t be a deadbeat. 

And that is really hard for people to "get."

ETA:  Men are told through a variety of influences of what it is to be masculine and successful, what those images really do is create a fragile identity that puts men in an emotionally vulnerable position without any of the skills to face that emotionally vulnerability.

Really, being a man, is about figuring out how to master/control/understand our biology and how it effects how we thing and relate to the world, then to figure out a method to do that that is healthy for the self and everyone around us.  In a nutshell.

[Guy Kilmore]

16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Which I've been arguing as well; I'm just trying to point out that it's not particularly helpful for men who don't struggle with that to rationalize all the great perks (which I absolutely agree with), while not also actively acknowledging and discussing the real and enduring internal and societal stigmas around such arrangements.

As a personal example, I was involved with a lawyer for several months (many years ago) near the beginning of years-long financial struggle for me. We never fought about money. She liked to spoil me by buying me things or taking me places I couldn't afford, and I liked to spoil her by doing things for her that she wasn't able to take care of herself with her crazy schedule. Things were going really well.

And when we started talking about moving in together, she took me to meet her parents, who absolutely loved me - or so I thought, until I found out later that they started accusing me of being a deadbeat, shiftless gold digger (she made at least 4x what I did - probably more actually; I'm pretty sure she, at least subconsciously was still trying to spare my feelings by playing down things like bonuses, etc., not that it was ever any of my business - we were just always pretty open discussing everything).

And I'd never even considered that money would be an issue between her and me. I was having a hard time because of the GFC and getting a divorce back-to-back, and wasn't some kind of moocher.

But she was close to her parents, and even though she absolutely didn't agree with them and defended me to them, I started feeling a lot of shame, guilt, and anger - not at her, but at her parents and at being portrayed as a loser. And that, especially for someone like myself who is already predisposed to mental issues, often becomes very difficult to distinguish from the real thing. And that in turn caused problems for her because she was caught between disapproval from her parents on the one side, and trying to support me emotionally through my (completely valid) feelings of shame, rejection, and anger. So naturally, the relationship didn't last.

And yeah, I didn't spiral down into misogyny and incel/MRA culture; but, I also never even considered dating a woman who I knew made significantly more than me until my own financial situation improved, because I didn't want to risk dealing with those feelings again.

I'm not saying my experience is common, but it's real, and it's definitely reinforced by a huge swath of American (and other) society. 

And I'm not posting this as some kind of "poor me/poor misunderstood white, cis, hetero, middle class American man, please cater to my/our pain", either. There are absolutely more pressing issues and people with more pressing material needs. 

What I am saying is that it's not as simple as pointing out the perks, and it can even come across as patronizing if the perks in question don't apply to the particular individual you're trying to convince of them. Yes, there can be real perks; but depending on the situation, in today's society there can also be some real drawbacks, and the calculus each person uses to make that determination for themselves is based on thousands of variables, many of which aren't even consciously obvious to the individual in question.

I'm just now starting the process of getting training to volunteer helping with outreach to young men like this, because frankly I'm surrounded by them in my neck of the woods. I absolutely understand the damage, pain, anger, and bewilderment that the rhetoric and actions of people caught up in these movements can cause, but I also can't help but see how these are also misguided (though devastating) reactions to real pain and suffering. 

That's not to mention that there is an massive movement out there attempting to capitalize on this real malaise by offering these hurting and ignorant young men the sense of camaraderie and belonging that they're desperately seeking, and twisting it into anger at all the old familiar targets.

However it's certain (as I know you're also well aware), that there isn't a corresponding mass movement reaching out to these young men to demonstrate an alternative. I'm absolutely not saying that the people affected by this violence should let down their guard and start catering to these men. I recognize that me, and people like me, are responsible for that. 

What I am saying, however, is that the rhetoric of those opposing incel/MRA culture can create the perception that everyone that has been caught up in that culture should be written off, and we should just focus on men who haven't been caught up in it yet. But that just reinforces what the grifters and recruiters are telling them: "You're in too deep now; even if you wanted out do you think the FEMINISTS/the LEFT/ the <INSERT APPLICABLE INCEL/MRA BOOGEYMAN HERE> will ever accept you after everything you've said/done", etc., etc.

And considering some of the back-and-forth on this thread, on the surface that interpretation doesn't even seem like that much of a stretch. I know I've felt attacked before here on the board for expressing sympathy for people who get sucked into the lies and can't find their way out. And that's definitely understandable; I don't expect anyone to put aside their experiences to cater to the very people that have hurt them. 

But it's also depressing and demoralizing for a host of reasons, not least because it feels like you're getting lumped in with the toxic belief system you're trying to rescue people from.

I think if you look back on my posts in this thread, you know where I stand on this issue.

I agree with your experience here and it sucks.  I am sorry you felt that and I agree the pressure is real.  It is that kind of pressure that helps these really toxic bubbles survive.  And these images and pressures of what we "should" be are ingrained to a subconscious level.  I remember when I first confronted it in myself.  It wasn't something as alienating and emotional as your experience, luckily it was much more mundane.

I proposed to my wife, she said yes, then we started wedding planning.  I felt myself a forward thinking guy, supportive, pretty well centered.  I found myself just, letting my wife plan the wedding, I didn't realize at the time, but I was operating under this impression that women planned for this since they were girls, like Monica from Friends or whatever.  I came home to our apartment, the lights were all off, and I saw all the wedding magazines just kind of pile randomly in the corner and found my wife crying on the bed.  She was freaking out because she didn't know what she was doing and I, thinking I was being this supportive guy, had abandoned her to all of it.  That was eye opening that we all probably have these little impressions and conceits that contribute to a world view we don't ascribe too.

I apologized and we talked.  And I got to learn something about myself, I am pretty good at planning weddings and events.  We also figured out how we can work together as a team.  

[Liffguard]

If I ever get married I fucking hope she has a higher salary than me, otherwise we'll probably be eating a lot of ramen. 

Okay, that's maybe an exaggeration, but based on my job history I highly doubt I'll ever be bringing in a high salary, or even a medium salary. If my future hypothetical wife wants to be the main breadwinner she will have my enthusiastic gratitude.

[S John]

17 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

That being said, having a comparable income does make things easy. There is no weary 'who pays more of the bill's' bullshit that some of my friends have. 

We used to do that. As in, for an example with random numbers, I would pay 62% of the rent and she’d pay 38% because that is our income ratio, and we were constantly sending each other Venmo requests for splitting groceries and bills.

Finally just decided to combine into a joint checking and savings account. We each maintain a personal checking account into which we deposit a set (and equal) amount each month for personal spending. Everything else is communal for household expenses and anything leftover is shifted to joint savings at the end of the month. I have to say this has both greatly simplified our financial interactions, but also really helps me to think twice about frivolous spending knowing I’ve only got x amount per month set aside for that. 
 

29 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

What I am saying, however, is that the rhetoric of those opposing incel/MRA culture can create the perception that everyone that has been caught up in that culture should be written off, and we should just focus on men who haven't been caught up in it yet. But that just reinforces what the grifters and recruiters are telling them: "You're in too deep now; even if you wanted out do you think the FEMINISTS/the LEFT/ the <INSERT APPLICABLE INCEL/MRA BOOGEYMAN HERE> will ever accept you after everything you've said/done", etc., etc.

On this point I fully agree and have a real problem with where our society is today. I think social media is the primary driver behind some circles requiring a culture of complete purity and the general state of rhetoric leading to polarizing absolutes. 

When we talk about wanting to improve society for the better there has to be room to allow people to change - and I don’t think our current climate is at all conducive to that. The righteous mob loves a good gotcha and the impersonal nature of seeing someone’s life go up in smoke over the computer screen - and then acting like it’s a good thing that that happened - honestly it disgusts me.

Very few people deserve that. And even less people have lived their lives mistake free. I think all of us have held a shitty opinion or two at some point.. and maybe still do! I believe that for most people genuine change is possible, but only insofar as you give them a path back.

In the era of social media our social culture has come to mirror the prison system. Catch a felony and it doesn’t matter that you did your time, you’re never going to be truly welcomed back to polite society. And what happens is a lot of people end up back in prison. I think there is a lesson in there for the way we treat social offenders , whether they be incels, racists, mysoginists, right wing conspiracy nuts, or whatever else. There has to be a path back or nothing will ever really change, it’ll just become a grievance for grievance tit for tat.

[Zorral]

What these men's rights and incel movements are, are just other arms/formations of libertarian thinking that Thatcher and Reagan ran with and made a limited number of herkyjerks very very very rich -- or at  least very rich in terms of getting attention for the history and socially challenged whiners who both insist gummit only provides handouts and dependency, while at the same time complaining it's not fair and thus at the very least  the government should make laws that divide women among men so I can at least get one!

I didn't say this made sense.  But libertariansim - neo-liberalism never makes sense either.  But herkyjerks eat is up with both hands.

 

 

[karaddin]

I think the part that's important to acknowledge with respect to that path back is that it requires them choosing to take it. You can't force people to back away from that shit, all you can do is ensure they know the path back exists and you'll help if they decide to take it. Agency is central to it, in much the same way as drug addiction - the person has to want and choose to quit.

[Zorral]

Just like the covid-19 deniers.  Even as they die of it, they are doubling down.  The nurses and doctors and other medical professionals in North Dakota say it's too late now for the governor to change anything after a year of him enabling all the brainwashing about the disease, masking, and the rest.  They are brainwashed and they're staying that way, because they can't stand to give it up.  They'd really, evidently, rather die.  They certainly prefer that we die with them, because of them, that's for sure, than admit they made such a mess.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/18/2020 at 4:06 AM, Rippounet said:

Please note, that doesn't mean that I see females as naturally nurturing (I think much less of it is innate than we tend to believe), just that men will strongly resist the move from patriarchy to matriarchy (obviously, many men are already rejecting equality, which is telling).

This got me thinking of the insidiousness  of a notion I've seen before. This idea of patriarchy not being a thing.  Often repeated by incels and MRas, and anti-feminists in general. They often posit a true patriarchy would not have any drawbacks to being a man(the expectation of being breadwinner, less seriousness taken when they're the victims of domestic abuse,), and the fact not all men are treated equally for why patriarchy isn't a thing. 

And the word itself is incredibly offensive.

They're bar for what constitutes a patriarchy could excuse many roll backs of woman’s rights and protections.

On 11/18/2020 at 8:49 AM, Guy Kilmore said:

I proposed to my wife, she said yes, then we started wedding planning.  I felt myself a forward thinking guy, supportive, pretty well centered.  I found myself just, letting my wife plan the wedding, I didn't realize at the time, but I was operating under this impression that women planned for this since they were girls, like Monica from Friends or whatever.  I came home to our apartment, the lights were all off, and I saw all the wedding magazines just kind of pile randomly in the corner and found my wife crying on the bed.  She was freaking out because she didn't know what she was doing and I, thinking I was being this supportive guy, had abandoned her to all of it.  That was eye opening that we all probably have these little impressions and conceits that contribute to a world view we don't ascribe too.

With regard respect to you, I think this is the type of thing that at a glance seems benign, but ultimately part of the reason so many women aren’t enthusiastic about getting married.

[Guy Kilmore]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

With regard respect to you, I think this is the type of thing that at a glance seems benign, but ultimately part of the reason so many women aren’t enthusiastic about getting married.

Agreed, which is one of the reasons why I shared it and I pass this observation on to others.

[argonak]

On 11/18/2020 at 8:05 AM, BigFatCoward said:

I cant imagine anything other than getting the horn when my wife's salary overtakes mine.

When we got together I made 4x what she makes, the only reason I still make slightly more is because I'm 9 years older so that much further on in my career.

That being said, having a comparable income does make things easy. There is no weary 'who pays more of the bill's' bullshit that some of my friends have. 

It doesn't work for everyone, but in my family we simply combine all the money into the same account.  My wife isn't working now, but when she was we made sure not to focus on who contributed to what.  All the money went into the same pot, and we setup budgets for all the cost line items based on discussions and our family goals.  Then we each got an "allowance" to spend on whatever non-essentials we wanted.  If someone wants something bigger than their allowance, they could save up for it, sell something they already bought (this is me, I'm a marketplace junky), or just discuss getting some additional budget that month with the other partner.  I know it sometimes bothers her that I make more than her, but my feeling has always been it doesn't matter who makes what, as long as everyone is contributing what they can.  We're a team, with team oriented goals.  Its not about the individual players.  If my wife suddenly got a new job making twice my paycheck, I'd be cheering for her.  Because it would just mean our team was doing better.

Before we did the budget thing, I was constantly anxious about our spending, because my parents always fought about money (and didn't have enough of it), and they could both be very frivolous at times.  Having a budget and discussing it regularly helps a lot.  Although I'm lucky to have a spouse who is willing to take it seriously and work at it.

 

[Crixus]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This got me thinking of the insidiousness  of a notion I've seen before. This idea of patriarchy not being a thing.  Often repeated by incels and MRas, and anti-feminists in general. They often posit a true patriarchy would not have any drawbacks to being a man(the expectation of being breadwinner, less seriousness taken when they're the victims of domestic abuse,), and the fact not all men are treated equally for why patriarchy isn't a thing. 

And the word itself is incredibly offensive.

They're bar for what constitutes a patriarchy could excuse many roll backs of woman’s rights and protections.

 

I think Jordan Peterson (who was referenced in this thread earlier) is one of those who claim patriarchy isn't a thing.

[karaddin]

16 hours ago, Crixus said:

I think Jordan Peterson (who was referenced in this thread earlier) is one of those who claim patriarchy isn't a thing.

Yeah but he knows his daughter is going to Weekend at Bernie's him to keep the grift alive, so Lobster Boy doesn't have quite as objective a view of things as he'd like to pretend  

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:43 AM, Guy Kilmore said:

Agreed, which is one of the reasons why I shared it and I pass this observation on to others.

That is a worthwhile thing to do.

Sexism doesn't have to be to the incel levels of ”I hate all the femoids!”

On 11/23/2020 at 10:54 PM, Crixus said:

I think Jordan Peterson (who was referenced in this thread earlier) is one of those who claim patriarchy isn't a thing.

It's a thing amongst many anti-feminists in general.

Truth be told though they have slight variations these types generally don't have substantive different  views on women, and how they’d like to see progress—or regress—to.

[Rippounet]

Since we mentioned this earlier...

Quote

 

https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2020/november/men-feel-happy-if-they-earn-more-than-their-wives-study-shows

Men feel happy if they earn more than their wives, study shows

New research by sociologist Dr Vanessa Gash indicates that men are also unhappy if their wives earn more

First published Tuesday, 24th November, 2020

A new study from City, University of London shows that husbands in the UK get a psychological boost when they out-earn their wives and feel unhappy if their wives earn more than they do.

The research, which assesses the partner pay gap (PPG) – a powerful measure of enduring inequalities within modern coupledom which goes against expectations of progressive equality between the sexes – has several key findings:

• Men exhibit an increase in life satisfaction in response to a recent increase in their proportional earnings relative to their wives’ earnings
• For women, changes in proportional earnings had no effect on life satisfaction
• Secondary-earning husbands report lower average life satisfaction than majority-earning and equal-earning men, while such differences were not found for women

 

•  

[Relic]

What stupid creatures we are...

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/26/2020 at 7:26 AM, Rippounet said:

Since we mentioned this earlier...

•  

Many men truly only feel like a man if they can framed as the superior to a woman in their lives even it’d leave them in worse state to live.

[BigFatCoward]

On 11/26/2020 at 3:34 PM, Relic said:

What stupid creatures we are...

Well quite. Imagine being happier on 50 grand and your wife is on 40, than 50 grand and your wife is on 100. 60 grand buys a lot of happiness.

Anyone who says different has never drank a cold beer while watching the sunset on koh phangnan while eating lobster.