Incels:

[karaddin]

The most important difference between men and women on this is down to traditional gender expectations, specifically here it's boys believing that their manhood is defined in part by their ability to get and control women. It's what translates the "failure state" into something that attacks their very identity, and the incel solution is to embrace that identity rooted in perceived failure. What they need to do instead is embrace a masculinity that doesn't have such an externality at it's core and build a sense of identity which doesn't rely on someone else as the foundation.

Of course there are other aggravating factors as well, the emotional isolation many of these men feel due to potential romantic partners being the only person they're allowed more than a baseline intimacy with results in 1) feeling incredibly lonely with all their emotions bottled up and 2) puts so much extra pressure on any potential new relationship, it's basically dumping so much extra weight and the ship can't stay afloat and they're immediately back to isolation and feeling even more bitter and lonely. The incel community ironically is their perceived lifeline of connection, but instead of keeping them afloat it actually drags them under.

A woman in Theda's position will generally still have other relationships in their life giving intimacy and connection, and aren't being actively recruited into a toxic community.

I have a ton of sympathy for boys that are in the early stages of this, the emotional struggle that leaves them vulnerable to recruitment. I've been there as well. I also have a ton of sympathy for boys who don't naturally align with stereotypical masculinity who are having their emotional life stripped from them - personally I view that as child abuse at the societal scale. But once they've gone incel? Fuck em, they've made their choice. If they want my sympathy they can walk away from that and then we can talk.

One of the most tragic parts is that for the most part it is the men that aren't suited to popular masculinity that end up this way, yet they respond by reifying the same masculinity that torments them. Those macho men mentioned earlier in the thread that women are attracted to? A lot of them naturally fit masculinity, and part of what's attractive about that is that it's genuine. They can also be a lot less insecure about their masculinity because they're comfortable in it, so they're happy doing many of the zillion things the manosphere has decided are gay - whether that's dancing, cooking, possess some actual emotional intelligence or anything else that straight women find attractive but other men call gay.

Of course I could just be trying to feminise these strapping lads? Who can tell.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Of course I could just be trying to feminise these strapping lads? Who can tell.

I agree with you stated.

This complaint of feminizing men had always been trotted since forever.

It’d be totally emasculating for men for women to done do pesky things like vote or serve in juries, or be the breadwinner.

Also I have to say I find this to be identity politics in the worst form.

As it’s done to constrict people to acting to a narrow definition of their gender rather liberate people.

 

[The BlackBear]

It was mentioned upthread, but thought I'd link Contrapoints video: 'Incels'

 

As I a 'normie' found it pretty enlightening.

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Crixus said:

being 'more emotional' is categorised as being feminine??!!! There seems to lie the problem in a nutshell.

Ya -- look at the USA rumptubtupinchief -- HE's the most uncontrolled emotional jerkoff out there, constantly jerking his emotional sewage into the public waters. But then, it's always projection with these guys -- claiming others do what They do, dream and fantasize.  And they insist on doing it in public, and they are determined to be allowed to do it.

Like babies, happily playing with their own shit, without any shame at their incapacity to control themselves in anything (CANNOT WEAR A MASK IT's UNCOMFORTABLE FOR ME), feel any empathy or even recognition of the existence of anyone else except themselves as a person.  Yet others, like women, are supposed to be more understanding of them and sympathetic of their pathetic selves.  Gimmeabreak.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

“I’m such a nice guy when I see a guy abuse a woman my first thought is why she isn’t sleeping with me? And I think women only go for assholes which basically means I think the majority of guys are assholes.”  Says the “nice guy.” As he stalks a woman he’s currently infatuated with. 
 

That really does sum it up.  

[Guy Kilmore]

I am fearful with some of the young men/teenagers I work with falling into this vein of thinking.  It is insidious and preys on part of our defense mechanisms to maintain self by externalizing the problem.  In reality, I feel, that a lot of these teenagers/children feel less of worth because they are not able to DO traditionally recognized masculine things, do not have easy access to talents and things they are good at, and/or are told the things they are good at are not of value.

Which tends to lean towards activities that are socially isolating, which then makes it harder to connect with people in society.

This of course is all coupled with some very unhealthy views on sex and sexuality.

Anyways, this article, from a comedy writer, explains the conversation that I tend to have to have much better than I did.  When I was struggling to make romantic connections in my early 20s, this, was essentially what I realized.  I am thankful that I didn't get mired in this pit of awfulness.

[Durckad]

I think @Werthead is largely correct in that the real cause for Incel-dom is externalization of blame and responsibility. "It's not MY fault that I'm a failure, it's feminism/women/Chads/etc. I don't need to change THEY need to change." That sort of thinking. It's very, very similar to a lot of the "radicalization" that occured in the alt-right in a sort of refusal to take responsibility for one's choices and actions.

Now, I'm not saying that this is all a personal issue and that just pulling oneself up by their bootstraps is going to fix everything, but I do think it's the real crux of the issue. If the cause of the problem is external, then no self-reflection is needed and no positive change can occur. "The problem is them, not me." Traditional gender roles do play a part, but I think primarily in the initial feelings of isolation. Lots of people don't fit into the traditional gender roles or stereotypes, but not all of them become incels. Same with the alt-right. Many people find themselves not succeeding or outright failing in our post-capitalist society, but not all of them blame all of their problems on immigrants, Jews, and cultural Marxists. Not all of them become alt-right chuds.

Ironically, both of these groups of people rail against ideas that would be absolutely beneficial to them. They may sneer at terms like toxic masculinity, feminism, progressivism, or socialism, but the very traditional roles for society, gender, and the economy are absolutely failing them and causing many of their ills. But no, their problems are not systemic, their problems are all being caused by some nefarious "other."

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Anyways, this article, from a comedy writer, explains the conversation that I tend to have to have much better than I did.  When I was struggling to make romantic connections in my early 20s, this, was essentially what I realized.  I am thankful that I didn't get mired in this pit of awfulness

Woo!  That is really good.

What hit me particularly was 

Quote

"...You hate yourself because you don't do anything....

PLUS

Quote

...Friend, if the system falls apart, take everything I've said above and multiply it times a thousand. The person without skill and drive will not be given food. The new masters may fly the banner of equality, but you'll slowly notice that the talented and charismatic are still getting the best stuff. That won't change in your lifetime, or in the lifetimes of your great-grandchildren....

Which is why I adore Partner.  Even in These Times, Partner pulled the utter destruction of the business together and re-visioned and made a very successful venture.  It would only have happened because of WHO Partner is, whom all the people who paid their good money to participate in the new version of the venture had the trust and confidence that they'd get as much out of the new thing as promised.  Partner never promised it would be the same thing, but carefully described and explained how it was different but for what we want this is the best that can be done now.  Plus, all the other people who had to be involved to pull this off.  But those who paid their good money to take the chance had often paid their good money to Partner and had that further experience that the crews on the ground that worked for the projects were that good.

Cannot express how much respect, admiration and just awe I feel at what Partner and the crews accomplished!  

This is someone who takes advantage of every advantage that has come along, while always being honest, truthful and loyal.  Not that many around like that, but the ranks of Partner's supporters have continued to grow, even in These Times.

ETA: Republicans have destroyed Partner's businesses several times over the decades.  But this time, wooey blooey did they ever!

[Larry of the Lawn]

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

?????????????????????????????????

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

You'd end up with the most fucked-up kids though...

[Week]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

The guys that invested a billion dollars in Quibi are at half mast reading this idea.

[DanteGabriel]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

*rushes off to patent the Karencel app*

[Theda Baratheon]

49 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

*rushes off to patent the Karencel app*

Good god the horror contained within  

[DMC]

4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

This is what Orlando is for.

[Larry of the Lawn]

.

[Durckad]

4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The market could offer a solution here if some enterprising ghoul started a dating app designed to match young incels with 30-55 year-old "let me speak to the manager types".  

Pretty sure the average incel would probably not want their "women" to have the autonomy to speak to the manager though.

[DanteGabriel]

2 hours ago, Durckad said:

Pretty sure the average incel would probably not want their "women" to have the autonomy to speak to the manager though.

Then you charge frustrated middle aged men to play "the manager." This is a multilayered service.

[Relic]

I wonder what percentage of American Incels who vote are voting for Trump. All of them? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Relic said:

I wonder what percentage of American Incels who vote are voting for Trump. All of them? 

Yes.