Incels:

[Guy Kilmore]

19 hours ago, Zorral said:

Woo!  That is really good.

What hit me particularly was 

PLUS

Which is why I adore Partner.  Even in These Times, Partner pulled the utter destruction of the business together and re-visioned and made a very successful venture.  It would only have happened because of WHO Partner is, whom all the people who paid their good money to participate in the new version of the venture had the trust and confidence that they'd get as much out of the new thing as promised.  Partner never promised it would be the same thing, but carefully described and explained how it was different but for what we want this is the best that can be done now.  Plus, all the other people who had to be involved to pull this off.  But those who paid their good money to take the chance had often paid their good money to Partner and had that further experience that the crews on the ground that worked for the projects were that good.

Cannot express how much respect, admiration and just awe I feel at what Partner and the crews accomplished!  

This is someone who takes advantage of every advantage that has come along, while always being honest, truthful and loyal.  Not that many around like that, but the ranks of Partner's supporters have continued to grow, even in These Times.

ETA: Republicans have destroyed Partner's businesses several times over the decades.  But this time, wooey blooey did they ever!

That line hits me too.  Heck, it applies to everyone, whenever I start feeling myself kind of in a "rut" I take stock at what I am doing, and either focus on a thing or switch gears into something else.  I find it lifting, getting that sense of self value.

 

Your partner sounds like a pretty awesome person.

[argonak]

23 hours ago, Durckad said:

I think @Werthead is largely correct in that the real cause for Incel-dom is externalization of blame and responsibility. "It's not MY fault that I'm a failure, it's feminism/women/Chads/etc. I don't need to change THEY need to change." That sort of thinking. It's very, very similar to a lot of the "radicalization" that occured in the alt-right in a sort of refusal to take responsibility for one's choices and actions.

Now, I'm not saying that this is all a personal issue and that just pulling oneself up by their bootstraps is going to fix everything, but I do think it's the real crux of the issue. If the cause of the problem is external, then no self-reflection is needed and no positive change can occur. "The problem is them, not me." Traditional gender roles do play a part, but I think primarily in the initial feelings of isolation. Lots of people don't fit into the traditional gender roles or stereotypes, but not all of them become incels. Same with the alt-right. Many people find themselves not succeeding or outright failing in our post-capitalist society, but not all of them blame all of their problems on immigrants, Jews, and cultural Marxists. Not all of them become alt-right chuds.

Ironically, both of these groups of people rail against ideas that would be absolutely beneficial to them. They may sneer at terms like toxic masculinity, feminism, progressivism, or socialism, but the very traditional roles for society, gender, and the economy are absolutely failing them and causing many of their ills. But no, their problems are not systemic, their problems are all being caused by some nefarious "other."

It is a problem that they blame women for not liking them.  But society as a whole does bear some blame for the lies we've brainwashed them.  Society is often the one who has taught these young guys that they're failures because they aren't some hollywood stud.   Its a lie to sell them crap.   You're not a failure if you don't look like Tom Cruise, you just don't look like Tom Cruise.  But so much of our modern world trains them to make these awful value judgements.  

"Haven't lost your virginity yet?  Oh how pathetic and sad are you.  Don't you realize sex is the be all end of everything and you should be having it ten times a day with hot chicks?"

"What?  You have a regular job at a regular business that barely pays your life costs because we destroyed all our worker protections?  Oh how pathetic and sad are you.  Don't you realize money is the be all end all of everything and you should be making crazy amounts of it?"

I look past on my youth and see how with the wrong triggers or bad luck I could easily have ended up like some of these men.  I can pity them for their circumstances while still disagreeing with the actions they have chosen to take based on those circumstances.

[Zorral]

But that isn't what their problems are or the cause of their problems.  Not really.  Because if it is about toxic standards of how men are to look and behave how does one explain the very very very many objectively unattractive physically men (and women for that matter) who have very happy and successful marriages and relationships and partners?  Of course these are all people who DO stuff.  Often lots and lots of stuff, and it is stuff that others value.  Even if it wasn't what they wanted to do really. For instance, wanted to be an author, didn't work out, but became a radio host who interviews writers and editors and hosts readings and very happy with it and so is everyone else.

 

[Jace, Extat]

5 hours ago, argonak said:

It is a problem that they blame women for not liking them.  But society as a whole does bear some blame for the lies we've brainwashed them.  Society is often the one who has taught these young guys that they're failures because they aren't some hollywood stud.   Its a lie to sell them crap.   You're not a failure if you don't look like Tom Cruise, you just don't look like Tom Cruise.  But so much of our modern world trains them to make these awful value judgements.  

"Haven't lost your virginity yet?  Oh how pathetic and sad are you.  Don't you realize sex is the be all end of everything and you should be having it ten times a day with hot chicks?"

"What?  You have a regular job at a regular business that barely pays your life costs because we destroyed all our worker protections?  Oh how pathetic and sad are you.  Don't you realize money is the be all end all of everything and you should be making crazy amounts of it?"

 

Bro, these are not new problems. Or even really 'problems' on the scale that introcultists should be pitied for their nightmarish worldviews. Gimmie a fucking break. Some people are rotten, and the rest of society having a perfectly natural envious/parasitic relationship with its popular figures goes back to the stone age. What the fuck do you think a Pharaoh is? Or his fine ass bitches for that matter?

Regressive elements should be corrected, not coddled.

[Heartofice]

Having been in conversations with these guys one thing that struck me was just how messed up their own sense of self was.

One guy I was talking to was utterly convinced he was far too ugly for any even half attractive girl to fancy. He obsessed about his facial symmetry and the odd look he makes when he smiles.

Yet he was from outward appearances exactly the sort of guy I would expect to do well with the ladies. Relatively tall, handsome, in decent shape etc, not a bad dresser. But he was socially awkward and probably on the spectrum somewhere, and had become so obsessed with his physical appearance that he couldn’t believe that he could be considered attractive. It was hard to suggest that there were many other factors involved in his lack of dating success but it was obvious where the problem lay.

I think social media and body dismorphia doesn’t tend to come up when talking about men, but I think it’s messing up a lot of guys to become focussed on their own looks to a dangerous extent. Add in too much time online and not enough in the real world and you build up a really messed up view of the world.

[Relic]

38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

He obsessed about his facial symmetry and the odd look he makes when he smiles.

 

As i said before, self loathing and extreme narcissism are not mutually exclusive. The biggest problem with these dues is that they can't pull their heads out of their asses, really. 

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

As i said before, self loathing and extreme narcissism are not mutually exclusive. The biggest problem with these dues is that they can't pull their heads out of their asses, really. 

Yeah agree, though I think think there was something really frustrating when interacting with someone like that, who has been taken to have such a narrow view of the world that they cannot step back. 

Having said that, I think a lot of these guys are not emotionally well, many are somewhere on the spectrum and have difficulties interacting with other people, and simply cannot view the world in the way that a lot of us expect them to. 

Telling them to pull their heads out of their asses probably won't see results.

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Telling them to pull their heads out of their asses probably won't see results.

Oh, for sure. It never seems to work, sadly. If i found someone on the street with their head literally up their own ass, and told them that maybe they should pull out I'd get scoffed at. That's the nature of having your head up your ass, i guess. 

Anyway, yeah. These dudes need therapy, anger management, and they need new hobbies. Way too many videogames skewing their perception of reality, and compounding their egocentric world views.  Or maybe sex robots. Sex robots might help. 

[All Cats Are Bad]

Few more decades we'll have sex robots and it won't be an issue. Technology solves so much.

Advice to Incels in the meantime? Date outside your race/religion/social group. Exoticism is a thing and it goers both ways. Interracial relationships will never be a bad thing. Also in my experience people who have been treated as outsiders by society will be less likely to treat awkward or socially unusual behavior as "threatening."

Also linking the ContraPoints video: 

 

[Heartofice]

https://medium.com/the-partnered-pen/the-manosphere-fact-vs-fiction-1e9658a37bd4

Thought this was a decent breakdown of all the different odd groups, because I think Incels tend to get lumped in with a lot of other people, who they ironically hate.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

One guy I was talking to was utterly convinced he was far too ugly for any even half attractive girl to fancy. He obsessed about his facial symmetry and the odd look he makes when he smiles.

It’s not physical appearance in itself.  It is having a strong enough sense of self to recognize that if someone doesn’t find you “attractive” sexually that there is nothing wrong with you, or with that person who doesn’t find you attractive.

That is how “Toxic Masculinity” damages men.  It teaches that sex is how men establish dominance and that if you are not having sex with hundreds of women in your lifetime... you are a weak “beta male”.  

 

[Heartofice]

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It’s not physical appearance in itself.  It is having a strong enough sense of self to recognize that if someone doesn’t find you “attractive” sexually that there is nothing wrong with you, or with that person who doesn’t find you attractive

Yeah they definitely put a lot of emphasis on having sex, and it becomes the entire focus of their life. Having said that, I've been a young man and being entirely focused on getting laid is pretty much the baseline when you have all those hormones running through you. 

18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That is how “Toxic Masculinity” damages men.  It teaches that sex is how men establish dominance and that if you are not having sex with hundreds of women in your lifetime... you are a weak “beta male”.  

I dunno, I think it's a lot more complex than that. Firstly, I think a lot of young guys naturally want to sleep with a lot of women if possible, because life is like a candy store of beautiful women and they are looking at porn and instagram all day. They see the more dominant confident guys who managed to get laid without seemingly having to do anything and they look at themselves and see that they are much more of the 'beta male' stereotype and their assumption is that they need to change to get what they want. 

It's also precisely because sex is something they cannot get that they put such an emphasis on it. I remember in my 20s I was going through a dry spell and it became all consuming. Then later when things picked up I was much more interested in staying at home and having a nice nap. 




 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

45 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah they definitely put a lot of emphasis on having sex, and it becomes the entire focus of their life. Having said that, I've been a young man and being entirely focused on getting laid is pretty much the baseline when you have all those hormones running through you. 

I dunno, I think it's a lot more complex than that. Firstly, I think a lot of young guys naturally want to sleep with a lot of women if possible, because life is like a candy store of beautiful women and they are looking at porn and instagram all day. They see the more dominant confident guys who managed to get laid without seemingly having to do anything and they look at themselves and see that they are much more of the 'beta male' stereotype and their assumption is that they need to change to get what they want. 

It's also precisely because sex is something they cannot get that they put such an emphasis on it. I remember in my 20s I was going through a dry spell and it became all consuming. Then later when things picked up I was much more interested in staying at home and having a nice nap. 




 

I think their emphasis on physical appearance, not their physical appearance itself, is why they have trouble.  People who are comfortable in their own skin are attractive... regardless of physical appearance.

[Heartofice]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 People who are comfortable in their own skin are attractive... regardless of physical appearance.

Well up to a point... don't pretend physical attraction isn't important.. especially to young guys.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well up to a point... don't pretend physical attraction isn't important.. especially to young guys.

Sure.  That doesn’t mean sexual attraction is only about the symmetry of someone’s body.  There is a great deal more to it than that.  

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Sure.  That doesn’t mean sexual attraction is only about the symmetry of someone’s body.  There is a great deal more to it than that.  

Yeah and I think a lot of it comes down to their inability to understand attraction from another persons perspective. Because they are so focused on what women look like, spend all their time drooling over hot women on the internet and less actually talking to them, they assume that women think the same way as them. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah and I think a lot of it comes down to their inability to understand attraction from another persons perspective. Because they are so focused on what women look like, spend all their time drooling over hot women on the internet and less actually talking to them, they assume that women think the same way as them. 

That’s the narcissism.  Right there coupled with an incredible lack of empathy.

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I dunno, I think it's a lot more complex than that. Firstly, I think a lot of young guys naturally want to sleep with a lot of women if possible, because life is like a candy store of beautiful women and they are looking at porn and instagram all day. They see the more dominant confident guys who managed to get laid without seemingly having to do anything and they look at themselves and see that they are much more of the 'beta male' stereotype and their assumption is that they need to change to get what they want. 

Just wanted to pick up on that word "dominant". Again, that may be how they see the world, but it does not reflect reality.

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, A wilding said:

Just wanted to pick up on that word "dominant". Again, that may be how they see the world, but it does not reflect reality.

Yeah I think it ties into a lot of terms that also get used that are not useful, like 'Alpha male'. Like a lot of it there is some truth in it, guys who are confident and take control and are respected by others are generally more attractive, but there is a misinterpretation that it means being aggressive and pushy. A lot of guys could learn to be more confident and be more assertive, but if you don't really know how to do that then you take it way too far. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah I think it ties into a lot of terms that also get used that are not useful, like 'Alpha male'. Like a lot of it there is some truth in it, guys who are confident and take control and are respected by others are generally more attractive, but there is a misinterpretation that it means being aggressive and pushy. A lot of guys could learn to be more confident and be more assertive, but if you don't really know how to do that then you take it way too far. 

You’re putting the cart before the horse.  People are drawn to those who are confident.  Confidence comes from comfort with self.  So, confident people are seen as “dominant” because people are naturally drawn to confident people.