B+A=J almost makes sense

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And the whole thing about Ned returning Dawn to Ashara at Starfall is... collective delusion? A lie? Or did she run back there at the end of the war?

It is either part of the cover story, or she did go to Starfall after the end of the war.  Neither is problematic for this theory.

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The Wolf’s Den is never described as being “a nice place”, as far as I can remember.

Davos at the Wolf's Den:

"As cells went, it was large and queerly comfortable. He suspected it might once have been some lordling's bedchamber. It was thrice the size of his captain's cabin on Black Bessa, and even larger than the cabin Salladhor Saan enjoyed on his Valyrian. Though its only window had been bricked in years before, one wall still boasted a hearth big enough to hold a kettle, and there was an actual privy built into a corner nook. The floor was made of warped planks full of splinters, and his sleeping pallet smelled of mildew, but those discomforts were mild compared to what Davos had expected.

The food had come as a surprise as well. In place of gruel and stale bread and rotten meat, the usual dungeon fare, his keepers brought him fresh-caught fish, bread still warm from the oven, spiced mutton, turnips, carrots, even crabs. Garth was none too pleased by that. "The dead should not eat better than the living," he complained, more than once. Davos had furs to keep him warm by night, wood to feed his fire, clean clothing, a greasy tallow candle. When he asked for paper, quill, and ink, Therry brought them the next day. When he asked for a book, so he might keep at his reading, Therry turned up with The Seven-Pointed Star.

For all its comforts, though, his cell remained a cell. Its walls were solid stone, so thick that he could hear nothing of the outside world"

 

It's spacious, has a bed, a hearth, a toilet, wood floors, decent food, reading material (Davos, the Dead Man is given the Seven Pointed Star to read--Lemore is a septa),

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence."

That’s Cat’s thoughts though, not Ned calling Jon “his son”. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

It is either part of the cover story, or she did go to Starfall after the end of the war.  Neither is problematic for this theory.

Davos at the Wolf's Den:

"As cells went, it was large and queerly comfortable. He suspected it might once have been some lordling's bedchamber. It was thrice the size of his captain's cabin on Black Bessa, and even larger than the cabin Salladhor Saan enjoyed on his Valyrian. Though its only window had been bricked in years before, one wall still boasted a hearth big enough to hold a kettle, and there was an actual privy built into a corner nook. The floor was made of warped planks full of splinters, and his sleeping pallet smelled of mildew, but those discomforts were mild compared to what Davos had expected.

The food had come as a surprise as well. In place of gruel and stale bread and rotten meat, the usual dungeon fare, his keepers brought him fresh-caught fish, bread still warm from the oven, spiced mutton, turnips, carrots, even crabs. Garth was none too pleased by that. "The dead should not eat better than the living," he complained, more than once. Davos had furs to keep him warm by night, wood to feed his fire, clean clothing, a greasy tallow candle. When he asked for paper, quill, and ink, Therry brought them the next day. When he asked for a book, so he might keep at his reading, Therry turned up with The Seven-Pointed Star.

For all its comforts, though, his cell remained a cell. Its walls were solid stone, so thick that he could hear nothing of the outside world"

 

It's spacious, has a bed, a hearth, a toilet, wood floors, decent food, reading material (Davos, the Dead Man is given the Seven Pointed Star to read--Lemore is a septa),

Erhm. Cheers? You made my point for me, do you realise it? I said it was a prison, and the very first line confirms it. Also, what type of food Manderly is feeding Davos is completely beyond the point. Also worth mentioning that Davos was a faux prisoner, Manderly was playing the Lannisters. So here it makes perfect sense that Davos would be fed and kept comfortable. None of this supports what you propose. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

That’s Cat’s thoughts though, not Ned calling Jon “his son”. 

Ned's wife is recalling that "Ned called Jon 'son' for all the north to see" and you are claiming that Cat is wrong and Ned did not actually call Jon "son"?  I think the text is clear on this.

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s Cat’s thoughts though, not Ned calling Jon “his son”. 

That doesn’t make any sense.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Ned's wife is recalling that "Ned called Jon 'son' for all the north to see" and you are claiming that Cat is wrong and Ned did not actually call Jon "son"?  I think the text is clear on this.

Cat is thinking about something that happened in the past. We don’t know how Ned breaks the news to her but since this was some 15 years ago, and people believe Jon to be Ned’s son we can assume that’s what he told her. I mean, are you seriously making something out of that?

You said that Ned calls Jon his son. And yes, we can accept that Ned said something to Cat to explain Jon. But he doesn’t call Jon his son. In fact, in the quote from AGoT Catelyn II, Ned goes out of his way to avoid saying Jon is his son. 

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Cat is thinking about something that happened in the past. We don’t know how Ned breaks the news to her but since this was some 15 years ago, and people believe Jon to be Ned’s son we can assume that’s what he told her. I mean, are you seriously making something out of that?

You said that Ned calls Jon his son. And yes, we can accept that Ned said something to Cat to explain Jon. But he doesn’t call Jon his son. In fact, in the quote from AGoT Catelyn II, Ned goes out of his way to avoid saying Jon is his son. 

Sigh.  Cat isn’t bemoaning what Ned told her about Jon.  She’s bemoaning what Ned told the North about Jon.  He proclaimed him to be his son.  To argue that in the limited time of the first book we don’t specifically hear Ned call Jon “son” must mean that Ned had never called Jon his son during Jon’s 14 years of life is absurd.  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Cat is thinking about something that happened in the past. We don’t know how Ned breaks the news to her but since this was some 15 years ago, and people believe Jon to be Ned’s son we can assume that’s what he told her. I mean, are you seriously making something out of that?

You said that Ned calls Jon his son. And yes, we can accept that Ned said something to Cat to explain Jon. But he doesn’t call Jon his son. In fact, in the quote from AGoT Catelyn II, Ned goes out of his way to avoid saying Jon is his son. 

Serious cope going on here. 

There is also the thing about swords being penises, and in Cat II, she said Ned gave Ashara the sword.  And that Ashara "awaited him" 

"And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes."

 

Why would Ashara be waiting for Ned? 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sigh.  Cat isn’t bemoaning what Ned told her about Jon.  She’s bemoaning what Ned told the North about Jon.  He proclaimed him to be his son.  To argue that in the limited time of the first book we don’t specifically hear Ned call Jon “son” must mean that Ned had never called Jon his son during Jon’s 14 years of life is absurd.  

Sigh indeed. That’s not what I said. That’s the opposite of what I said, Since the whole world believe Jon is Ned’s son, we can be fairly certain that that is because Ned told them as much. But to use it as an argument supporting Jon being actually Ned’s son is either disingenuous or plain silly. 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sigh indeed. That’s not what I said. That’s the opposite of what I said, Since the whole world believe Jon is Ned’s son, we can be fairly certain that that is because Ned told them as much. But to use it as an argument supporting Jon being actually Ned’s son is either disingenuous or plain silly. 

Oh, well that I agree with.  I thought you were furthering Corbon’s argument that Ned never told anyone Jon was his son.  At least I think that’s what Corbon was arguing.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Oh, well that I agree with.  I thought you were furthering Corbon’s argument that Ned never told anyone Jon was his son.  At least I think that’s what Corbon was arguing.

Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear in my previous reply. I’m not convinced that Ned actually told people that Jon was “his son” at any point. I am sure he told people something upon arriving in Winterfell with Jon after the war, but I can’t, in good faith, claim that he must have said what people assume he said. Knowing Ned I would bet on something more vague and less specific that would certainly lead people to assume he meant Jon was his son. For instance, he could have used the same “my blood” line that Cat remembers later on. He could have simply said, “the boy is mine“. The point is, there are any number of ways for Ned to say this without calling Jon “son”, that would cause people to infer he meant Jon was his son. And, of course, he could have said “Jon is my son“, end of story. But we don’t know. What we do know is that Ned never calls Jon his son, nor refers to Jon as “my son” in the current timeline. 

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear in my previous reply. I’m not convinced that Ned actually told people that Jon was “his son” at any point. I am sure he told people something upon arriving in Winterfell with Jon after the war, but I can’t, in good faith, claim that he must have said what people assume he said. Knowing Ned I would bet on something more vague and less specific that would certainly lead people to assume he meant Jon was his son. For instance, he could have used the same “my blood” line that Cat remembers later on. He could have simply said, “the boy is mine“. The point is, there are any number of ways for Ned to say this without calling Jon “son”, that would cause people to infer he meant Jon was his son. And, of course, he could have said “Jon is my son“, end of story. But we don’t know. What we do know is that Ned never calls Jon his son, nor refers to Jon as “my son” in the current timeline. 

I think Cat's quote makes it clear that Ned declared Jon his son.  Cat wouldn't have come to that conclusion unless Ned made it unambiguous.  I also don't see a scenario where Ned just shows up with a child without declaring his relation to said child.  

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Cat's quote makes it clear that Ned declared Jon his son.  Cat wouldn't have come to that conclusion unless Ned made it unambiguous.  I also don't see a scenario where Ned just shows up with a child without declaring his relation to said child.  

Cat is remembering something that happened a long time ago, and something that had a pretty big impact on her life. I think it’s not inconceivable that she is remembering the content of what was said, since that’s what really weighed on her, rather than the words Ned said, verbatim. But as I said, maybe Ned said Jon was his son, then again, maybe he phrased it differently. It’s actually not that hard to phrase things in a way so that people will assume things that haven’t been said. No matter whether he called Jon his son or not; I don’t even think we will ever find out. Point remains, though, he doesn’t call Jon his son nor thinks of Jon as his son, nor refers to Jon as his son in his PoVs.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Cat is remembering something that happened a long time ago, and something that had a pretty big impact on her life. I think it’s not inconceivable that she is remembering the content of what was said, since that’s what really weighed on her, rather than the words Ned said, verbatim. But as I said, maybe Ned said Jon was his son, then again, maybe he phrased it differently. It’s actually not that hard to phrase things in a way so that people will assume things that haven’t been said. No matter whether he called Jon his son or not; I don’t even think we will ever find out. Point remains, though, he doesn’t call Jon his son nor thinks of Jon as his son, nor refers to Jon as his son in his PoVs.

I don't think Cat is remembering a single conversation about Jon, And I don't think Cat is referring to a private conversation that she and Ned had about Jon.  Her issue is that Ned brought Jon back to Winterfell and called him his son for all the North to hear.  In other words, Ned goes out of his way to make sure the other Lords and denizens of Winterfell know that Jon is his son.  

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think Cat is remembering a single conversation about Jon, And I don't think Cat is referring to a private conversation that she and Ned had about Jon.  Her issue is that Ned brought Jon back to Winterfell and called him his son for all the North to hear.  In other words, Ned goes out of his way to make sure the other Lords and denizens of Winterfell know that Jon is his son.  

It doesn’t matter if it’s one convo or 10,000. Nothing really matters much apart from the very first time the issue is addressed. Once one person or more people make the initial assumption based on whatever Ned says upon arriving w/ Jon, then it becomes a “well known fact”. 
It’s like gossip. I once read something on a door in the loo at uni about someone. Same day I mention it to a friend, “did you know so and so is shagging so so?”. My friend looks at me and says, “nah”. I reply, “I just read it, though, there might be something to it”. She says, “there’s nothing to it. I wrote it, and I made it all up”. 
So, if Ned, upon arriving, says something that Cat (and whoever else) understands as “this is my son”, that’s it. From that moment on Jon is Ned’s son, and that’s what everyone will think and say, and Ned doesn’t have to say anything else. 

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It doesn’t matter if it’s one convo or 10,000. Nothing really matters much apart from the very first time the issue is addressed. Once one person or more people make the initial assumption based on whatever Ned says upon arriving w/ Jon, then it becomes a “well known fact”. 
It’s like gossip. I once read something on a door in the loo at uni about someone. Same day I mention it to a friend, “did you know so and so is shagging so so?”. My friend looks at me and says, “nah”. I reply, “I just read it, though, there might be something to it”. She says, “there’s nothing to it. I wrote it, and I made it all up”. 
So, if Ned, upon arriving, says something that Cat (and whoever else) understands as “this is my son”, that’s it. From that moment on Jon is Ned’s son, and that’s what everyone will think and say, and Ned doesn’t have to say anything else. 

Ha, no I think not.  Jon doesn't become a son of the Lord of Winterfell via a mistaken assumption.  Cat's upset because Ned brings Jon to court and makes it clear that Jon is his son.  It's clear as to why Ned does this, because it puts Jon under his protection.  That's what it means when Cat says Ned called him his son for all the North to hear.  He acknowledges Jon as his son.  Which means if Jon is ever legitimized he can potentially inherit.  It has a rather large legal significance.  One that Cat is very aware of.

You can't take a snippet of time (which AGOT is) and argue that because Ned never calls him "son" during that brief moment of time, means that Ned never calls Jon his son in their fourteen year history together.  That is absurd.  After all, there is a reason that Jon calls Ned "father".  There is a reason that Ned's truborn children consider Jon a half brother.  

This is truly a silly argument.

ETA: For shits and giggles I decided to see if I could find a place where Ned specifically called Jon his son, and it didn't take long.  When Jon and Robb located the Direwolf, Jon calls out to Ned:

Quote

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them.  He waved and shouted down at them.  "Father, Bran, come quickly, see what Robb has found!"  Then he was gone again.

Jory rode up beside them.  "Trouble my lord?"

"Beyond a doubt," his lord father said.  "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."

Notice that Ned said sons, referring to Jon and Robb.  In the very first freaking chapter we meet Ned and Jon.

[CamiloRP]

5 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence."

Hey, @corbon odin here has a quote that (I think) nave came up in our discussion!

 

[lehutin]

4 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Serious cope going on here. 

There is also the thing about swords being penises, and in Cat II, she said Ned gave Ashara the sword.  And that Ashara "awaited him" 

"And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes."

 

Why would Ashara be waiting for Ned? 

You should re-read that part of Catelyn II much more closely:

Quote

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Catelyn does not know for a fact that Ned actually gave Dawn to Ashara. It is a story she heard from "her maids." Where did "her maids" hear the story from? "Her husband's soldiers." Where did "her husband's soldiers" hear the story from? 

 

This story is nothing more than than a she said, he said rumor. FWIW, GRRM has two degrees in journalism from Northwestern. IMO it's a sign of his journalism education that every time Ashara is mentioned as possibly being Jon's mother, it comes from a character who has no clue what they're talking about.

[Azarial]

If Jon was proclaimed as Neds son by the wet nurse then, then Ned says his usual, "He's my blood, that's all you need to know." Cat could see that as him proclaiming him as his son since it would take a previous belief, and say just enough to confirm it in her mind. No crazy manipulation or scheming necessary on Ned's part.  Have Howland hire a wet nurse, send her and Howland north. She asks Howland who the baby is and he says the kid is Neds, easy.  And based on the story his kids tell Bran, making up these manipulative stories seems right up his alley. Not saying it's the only option, or the most likely, simply that this is one way that Ned doesn't have to be all devious, and people are still told Jon is his son. Or it's Wylla, and she takes it on herself to do this. Claiming Jon as hers may have been her idea. If she was hired by Rhaegar and the kings guard they must have trusted her. Then Ned only needs to lie once to Robert. After she claims he's hers at Starfall and says he's Neds at Winterfell Ned doesn't need to say more than the he's my blood thing, as the people have already been primed to view him as his son.

As to the sons plural thing. It would be really odd to say what has my son and my blood gotten into to. And calling each by name would seem to formal for the situation. I'm guessing most of the time he just calls him Jon, when questioned he's his blood, and when referring to a Jon and Rob together it's son's or children for simplicity more than anything.

I don't know, Ned making an announcement declaring Jon his son just seems out of character for Ned. And taking Cat's statement at face value implies that this is what he did. At most I can see him telling a few select people, and even then I'm guessing they'd have to confront him with questions and assumptions first based on what we've seen of his actions in the main story. He does appear to be trying to stick as close to the truth as possible, I think Corbon is right in this. I'm not convinced he never lied, but if he did they would be very concise, and necessary for the safety of a family member in his mind, as that seems to be the only time he lies. Cat's statement seems more like her remembering how it felt to her, than reality. To her it would have felt like she was shamed in front of the entire north, by Ned declaring this. But this just seems really unlikely to me.  

[corbon]

On 10/30/2020 at 4:28 PM, CamiloRP said:

Nope, I agree with what he did, but what he did was a lie. "Sometimes lies can be honorable." 

I understand your position on lies of omission.
I just cannot bring myself to call the precise and accurate truth a lie. Thats it. Period. 

Quote

I guess we're really different about this and that's it,

Yep. 

Quote

in this case tho, that doesn't apply. "Jon is my son, that's all you need to know." 

That'd be it, nothing to contradict, if he somehow calls him not his son, then it would seem off regardless if he had actually call him that, as Jon being Ned's son is an accepted truth for everyone who knows about them (except for people who know the truth).

Sure. Except thats not what he actually said, is it.

So I'll stick with the observables, rather than the incorrect paraphrases.

Quote

Yeah, I get it, I just don't think it goes with the character to do such a sneaky thing. I think Ned would consider both lie and trick equally dishonorable, with the added things that he has no patience for tricks and as they are less straightforward he dislikes them more.

As you said above, we have very different views.

I can't see 'your' Ned in the books at all. 'My' Ned isn't above sneaky things. He lies, when he thinks its honourable. He'd use tricks in battle, because battle is real, not faux honour bullshit like Renly's 'knights of summer' play at when Cat visits them . He'd leave his friend's bones in the south because their honourable death is real, the location of their bones is much less important if collecting them might reveal more (like 8 cairns, the missing 3 KG, more tricky and dangerous questions).

Robb is the son of my Ned, I don't think yours. Luring Jaime into a night ambush at the Whispering Wood? Bypassing teh Golden Tooth via a goat track? These don't sound like the son of your Ned.  

Quote

Furthermore, if him calling Jon his son after 14 is okay because he's his adoptive son, why isn't it when he arrived at WF? He knew he was gonna raise him as his son, so he was already his son, he was already 'adopted'.

May be it is. But we don't actually see him doing that. And Cat's memory he says 'my blood', not 'my son'. Why is that?
That one time we do see it, its a collective, not a singular. Which is different, even if subtly. 

Quote

Tricks are more sneaky, less straightforward and he has no patience for them.

I very much disagree.
Ned has all the patience in the world for some things. But not for politics.

On 10/30/2020 at 4:45 PM, Frey family reunion said:

What Rodrick said was that Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the bastard, as far as he knew.  When this conversation occurred with Lady Hornwood, Ramsay is not referred to as the Bastard of Bolton.  It’s also pretty apparent that Rodrick knows little if anything about him.  Lady Hornwood supplies most of the information to Rodrick, and it seems that Lady Hornwood’s information comes from a lot of troubling rumors about the boy.

No, he’s not commonly known as the Bastard of Bolton, not until Rodrick travels to the Dreadfort to try and free Lady Hornwood.  When Rodrick returns to Winterfell is when he first calls him the Bastard of Bolton.  So presumably that’s how the denizens of the Dreadfort referred to him.  Now that could be because Roose acknowledged him before he left for the war, or that Ramsay made everyone call him that, to emphasis his authority while Lord Bolton was away.

Its the same book ad there is no evidence of new information coming to Rodrik.

On 10/31/2020 at 5:51 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

Ned's wife is recalling that "Ned called Jon 'son' for all the north to see" and you are claiming that Cat is wrong and Ned did not actually call Jon "son"?  I think the text is clear on this.

The language and context is figurative, as demonstrated by the 'see' as opposed to 'hear'. Its not actually a specific quote.

On 10/31/2020 at 6:35 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Oh, well that I agree with.  I thought you were furthering Corbon’s argument that Ned never told anyone Jon was his son.  At least I think that’s what Corbon was arguing.

My argument is that we don't know whether Ned ever announced Jon was his literal son. We do know, that when we hear Ned's actual words, he doesn't say Jon is his son when we would expect him to, especially if he said it other times. If you lie once, then what is the point of carefully precise language to avoid repeating the same lie? If you lie once then you should be comfortable repeating the lie to reinforce it, sustain it. Not avoid doing so.

On 10/31/2020 at 9:46 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Ha, no I think not.  Jon doesn't become a son of the Lord of Winterfell via a mistaken assumption.  Cat's upset because Ned brings Jon to court and makes it clear that Jon is his son.  It's clear as to why Ned does this, because it puts Jon under his protection.  That's what it means when Cat says Ned called him his son for all the North to hear. 

You see? You have to unconsciously change the language to make it work, and even then its still not phrased as a verbal quote. He didn't call Jon his son for all the North to hear, he called him his son for all the North to see.

Quote

He acknowledges Jon as his son. 

There is no text that says or indicates this. 

Quote

You can't take a snippet of time (which AGOT is) and argue that because Ned never calls him "son" during that brief moment of time, means that Ned never calls Jon his son in their fourteen year history together.  That is absurd. 

Straw man.

You can take every time we hear Ned's actual words during a moment of stress around this subject and note a pattern. 
You can then check all the times that 'mark' Jon as Ned's son and find out that they come from other people, not Ned's actual words.
You can then make an argument that maybe, not definitively, Ned didn't actually call Jon his son. Merely treated him as his son. And that was enough.
And that therefore, we should be wary about any arguments that claim Ned called Jon his son or lied about his relationship.

Quote

ETA: For shits and giggles I decided to see if I could find a place where Ned specifically called Jon his son, and it didn't take long.  When Jon and Robb located the Direwolf, Jon calls out to Ned:

Notice that Ned said sons, referring to Jon and Robb.  In the very first freaking chapter we meet Ned and Jon.

Well d-uh! Good to see you at least trying to catch up...

On 10/31/2020 at 10:38 AM, CamiloRP said:

Hey, @corbon odin here has a quote that (I think) nave came up in our discussion!

I brought it up (initially, in this thread), and explained it in post #32 (pg2). And the other one (collective sons) too. I've covered both multiple times already in this thread. @kissedbyfire's posts #91, #93 and #95 exactly fit my position.