B+A=J almost makes sense

[CamiloRP]

7 minutes ago, corbon said:

I understand your position on lies of omission.
I just cannot bring myself to call the precise and accurate truth a lie. Thats it. Period. 

Yep. 

Sure. Except thats not what he actually said, is it.

Yes, I was saying, wether he said "Jon is my son" or he let everyone believe he was, he still has the same 'untruth' to keep, the only thing giving it up would be him calling Jon 'not my son' so it doesn't make lying harder than keeping the truth.

 

Quote

I can't see 'your' Ned in the books at all. 'My' Ned isn't above sneaky things. He lies, when he thinks its honourable. He'd use tricks in battle, because battle is real, not faux honour bullshit like Renly's 'knights of summer' play at when Cat visits them . He'd leave his friend's bones in the south because their honourable death is real, the location of their bones is much less important if collecting them might reveal more (like 8 cairns, the missing 3 KG, more tricky and dangerous questions).

Robb is the son of my Ned, I don't think yours. Luring Jaime into a night ambush at the Whispering Wood? Bypassing teh Golden Tooth via a goat track? These don't sound like the son of your Ned.  

Tricking an enemy in battle is not the same as tricking your wife.

 

Quote

May be it is. But we don't actually see him doing that. And Cat's memory he says 'my blood', not 'my son'. Why is that?
That one time we do see it, its a collective, not a singular. Which is different, even if subtly. 

Yes, but you are arguing he never called him his son until he was his son, but I think he was his son when he arrived to Winterfel.

 

Quote

I very much disagree.
Ned has all the patience in the world for some things. But not for politics.

I think tricks such as that are one of the things he has no patience for.

 

Quote

I brought it up (initially, in this thread), and explained it in post #32 (pg2). And the other one (collective sons) too. I've covered both multiple times already in this thread. @kissedbyfire's posts #91, #93 and #95 exactly fit my position.

(would someone clean the egg off my face?)

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, but you are arguing he never called him his son until he was his son, but I think he was his son when he arrived to Winterfel.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here, can you clarify? From what I understood, I don’t think that’s what @corbon is saying, but maybe I misunderstood. 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here, can you clarify? From what I understood, I don’t think that’s what @corbon is saying, but maybe I misunderstood. 

He's right, in a way.

Ned implicitly calls Jon his son when he calls Jon and Robb (and Bran?) collectively 'my sons' in the opening chapter of AGoT.
I've made the point that this is different that explicitly telling people "Jon is my son" when he returned after the war. 

By the time Jon and Robb have lived as brothers for 13 years or so, IMO Jon is Ned's son, even if they had no blood relation at all.
I think @CamiloRP suggests that there is no difference between this 'truth' and Ned saying Jon is his son right from the start. I disagree, but understand where he is coming from. Its a fine line...

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, corbon said:

He's right, in a way.

Ned implicitly calls Jon his son when he calls Jon and Robb (and Bran?) collectively 'my sons' in the opening chapter of AGoT.
I've made the point that this is different that explicitly telling people "Jon is my son" when he returned after the war. 

By the time Jon and Robb have lived as brothers for 13 years or so, IMO Jon is Ned's son, even if they had no blood relation at all.
I think @CamiloRP suggests that there is no difference between this 'truth' and Ned saying Jon is his son right from the start. I disagree, but understand where he is coming from. Its a fine line...

Gotcha. I didn't understand what @CamiloRP said. I agree w/ you on this, as you can probably tell. 

 

[corbon]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Tricking an enemy in battle is not the same as tricking your wife.

I don't think so. Not if the purpose is honourable enough and necessary enough. Not in Ned's mind.
"Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

(would someone clean the egg off my face?)

Hey, at least you are honest enough to admit it. Others bring these up later as 'gotcha's'... 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Straw man.

You can take every time we hear Ned's actual words during a moment of stress around this subject and note a pattern. 
You can then check all the times that 'mark' Jon as Ned's son and find out that they come from other people, not Ned's actual words.
You can then make an argument that maybe, not definitively, Ned didn't actually call Jon his son. Merely treated him as his son. And that was enough.
And that therefore, we should be wary about any arguments that claim Ned called Jon his son or lied about his relationship.

Ha, ok whatever you say.  Cat specifically notes that Ned called Jon his son for all the North to hear.  In the very first chapter we meet Jon and Ned, he calls him his son.  Jon is known as the Bastard of Winterfell.  And it’s commonly known by everyone that Jon is Ned’s son, and the half brother to Ned’s children.  

But there is no evidence that Ned ever called Jon his son.  

[corbon]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

If Jon was proclaimed as Neds son by the wet nurse then, then Ned says his usual, "He's my blood, that's all you need to know." Cat could see that as him proclaiming him as his son since it would take a previous belief, and say just enough to confirm it in her mind. No crazy manipulation or scheming necessary on Ned's part.  Have Howland hire a wet nurse, send her and Howland north. She asks Howland who the baby is and he says the kid is Neds, easy.  And based on the story his kids tell Bran, making up these manipulative stories seems right up his alley. Not saying it's the only option, or the most likely, simply that this is one way that Ned doesn't have to be all devious, and people are still told Jon is his son.

Right. You've got the right idea. There are any number of ways this can happen.

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

Or it's Wylla, and she takes it on herself to do this. Claiming Jon as hers may have been her idea. If she was hired by Rhaegar and the kings guard they must have trusted her.

Indeed. Though its worth noting that the idea that Wylla is Jon's mother doesn't come from her. It comes from Robert and from Allyria Dayne.
The only information known to have come from the source Wylla is that Jon and Edric are milk-brothers, which merely means Wylla nursed Jon, not that she was his mother.

IMO the mostly likely source of the idea that Wylla is Jon's mother is not from any person making a statement, but rather from general gossip at Starfall. Ned rides in to Strafall with Wylla nursing Jon and has Jon treated as 'his blood', and the natural guess at Starfall, who know Ashara is not the mother, because she's already there and had a different, dead, child, is that Wylla is the mother. Using the mother as wetnurse is an age-old story.
King Robert no doubt gets a report about Ned's visit to Starfall and probably reads or is told that Wylla is suspected as the mother. When he and Ned get together he asks about the-wetnurse and Ned gives him her name. I see no reason hat the first conversation went markedly different than the second, which we witnessed.

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

Then Ned only needs to lie once to Robert.

Not even that in truth.
Maybe he did, but if so, why does Ned act the way he does later? Makes no sense. He should be reaffirming the lie even if he's angry. If he talked once to Robert, then he should be talking again, not staying tight-lipped.

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

As to the sons plural thing. It would be really odd to say what has my son and my blood gotten into to. And calling each by name would seem to formal for the situation. I'm guessing most of the time he just calls him Jon, when questioned he's his blood, and when referring to a Jon and Rob together it's son's or children for simplicity more than anything.

Exactly.

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

I don't know, Ned making an announcement declaring Jon his son just seems out of character for Ned.

Yes. And inconsistent from who he acts and talks about the subject later.

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

And taking Cat's statement at face value implies that this is what he did.

Cat's statement is very 'general'. And if you truly take it at 'face value', then Ned didn't say anything, his actions 'spoke' on his behalf. The North can't see his words, it sees his actions.

On 10/31/2020 at 12:37 PM, Azarial said:

 I'm not convinced he never lied, but if he did they would be very concise, and necessary for the safety of a family member in his mind, as that seems to be the only time he lies.

I'm not certain either. But agree exactly that any lies would be concise and necessary.

Seeing as how they don't seem to be 'necessary' when he talks with Cat or Robert that we saw, it makes me suspicious that they weren't 'necessary' earlier either...

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here, can you clarify? From what I understood, I don’t think that’s what @corbon is saying, but maybe I misunderstood. 

I worded it like crap, but what I meant is that if Ned intended to 'adopt' Jon, he would already consider him his son, after all he treated him as his son since always, meaning he was, if not in a biological sense. Also, they likely had spent a few weeks if not months together by the time they showed up in Winterfell, he was likely already feeling like the boys father, and probably had a greater connection to him than to Robb, whom he hadn't even met.

[corbon]

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ha, ok whatever you say.  Cat specifically notes that Ned called Jon his son for all the North to hear.  

See. Not hear.

[CamiloRP]

30 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't think so. Not if the purpose is honourable enough and necessary enough. Not in Ned's mind.
"Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's simpler and more honest to simply lie in that situation, rather than forcing someone to lie to themselves, and I think that's what Ned would do.

 

Quote

Hey, at least you are honest enough to admit it. Others bring these up later as 'gotcha's'... 

Oh no, I'm playing 5D chess right now, in a few weeks I'm gonna remind you of how I accept my mistakes and imply you don't, then you will be forced into exile.

[corbon]

1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's simpler and more honest to simply lie in that situation, rather than forcing someone to lie to themselves, and I think that's what Ned would do.

Well, we don't have to agree on everything.
I think that quote though shows that he thinks that there are secrets he believes are too dangerous to share with Cat. Which means, by your standards, lying to her about them. Or by my standards "tricking" her without lying. 
"He is my blood, and that is all you need to know"

1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

Oh no, I'm playing 5D chess right now, in a few weeks I'm gonna remind you of how I accept my mistakes and imply you don't, then you will be forced into exile.

3d is pushing my limits. 5D!? Wow. 

You can imply all you like. If I made a mistake, I'll just accept it and leave the egg on your face again. 

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, corbon said:

See. Not hear.

Whatever.  You’re missing the big point here. It’s evident that Jon is an acknowledged bastard of Ned.  Which is why Cat is worried about Robb legitimizing Jon.  Ned’s acknowledgment combined with Robb legitimizing Jon makes Jon a threat to her children’s inheritance.  

It’s also why the theory advanced (tepidly) by the OP is probably false.  Ned is only going to make a false acknowledgment of Jon for a very important reason.  This is probably what limits Jon’s parentage to a scenario where the truth outweighs Ned’s dishonor in a false acknowledgment and the truth poses a bigger problem than the antipathy this scenario causes Cat to have for Jon.

It’s what gives additional credence to the argument that Rhaegar may be Jon’s father. This would be a situation that would force Ned’s hand into doing something as significant as making a false acknowledgment of Jon.  Ned doesn’t want anyone asking any questions regarding Jon’s father.  

Jon merely being a bastard of Brandon isn’t enough for Ned to go through these lengths.  With the lone exception of something as scandalous and as harmful to Jon, and Cat, and Winterfell  as an incestuous relationship with Brandon and Lyanna.

This is why I think these are the only two possible scenarios for Jon’s parentage.  

[Azarial]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Right. You've got the right idea. There are any number of ways this can happen.

Indeed. Though its worth noting that the idea that Wylla is Jon's mother doesn't come from her. It comes from Robert and from Allyria Dayne.
The only information known to have come from the source Wylla is that Jon and Edric are milk-brothers, which merely means Wylla nursed Jon, not that she was his mother.

IMO the mostly likely source of the idea that Wylla is Jon's mother is not from any person making a statement, but rather from general gossip at Starfall. Ned rides in to Strafall with Wylla nursing Jon and has Jon treated as 'his blood', and the natural guess at Starfall, who know Ashara is not the mother, because she's already there and had a different, dead, child, is that Wylla is the mother. Using the mother as wetnurse is an age-old story.

King Robert no doubt gets a report about Ned's visit to Starfall and probably reads or is told that Wylla is suspected as the mother. When he and Ned get together he asks about the-wetnurse and Ned gives him her name. I see no reason hat the first conversation went markedly different than the second, which we witnessed.

I've heard your thoughts on his conversation with Robert in the main story, and the Starfall stuff, that I always found reasonable, but this is the first time I've read how Robert would hear about it and ask in a way that Ned could answer honestly. That was always the biggest hole in this theory so I'm glad you cleared that up.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Not even that in truth.
Maybe he did, but if so, why does Ned act the way he does later? Makes no sense. He should be reaffirming the lie even if he's angry. If he talked once to Robert, then he should be talking again, not staying tight-lipped.

I just hadn't heard your thoughts on how Robert would link it to the wetnurse, and knew Ned had to have told him something based on the conversation, and had no theory of my own. Simple as that lol.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Exactly.

Yes. And inconsistent from who he acts and talks about the subject later.

Cat's statement is very 'general'. And if you truly take it at 'face value', then Ned didn't say anything, his actions 'spoke' on his behalf. The North can't see his words, it sees his actions.

I could go either way on this as it is just a common phrase, so may not have any added meaning, and don't think it changes anything regardless. The fact that Cat is recollecting how she felt about a very general acknowledgement as apposed to recalling a specific event remains the biggest tick against taking her statement at face value regardless. I just see 'the whole north to see' bit as her being melodramatic as it was an emotional thing for her.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I'm not certain either. But agree exactly that any lies would be concise and necessary.

Seeing as how they don't seem to be 'necessary' when he talks with Cat or Robert that we saw, it makes me suspicious that they weren't 'necessary' earlier either...

[corbon]

1 minute ago, Azarial said:

I've heard your thoughts on his conversation with Robert in the main story, and the Starfall stuff, that I always found reasonable, but this is the first time I've read how Robert would hear about it and ask in a way that Ned could answer honestly. That was always the biggest hole in this theory so I'm glad you cleared that up.

Well, it gets pooh-pooh-ed by many people.
But seriously. Does anyone think that Ned's visit to Starfall didn't get reported on to Robert? That Varys wasn't making every effort to ingratiate himself with his new master and keep his position (and head)? That Robert wasn't damned interested in where Ned had disappeared to after Storms End?

1 minute ago, Azarial said:

I just hadn't heard your thoughts on how Robert would link it to the wetnurse, and knew Ned had to have told him something based on the conversation,

what was her name, that common girl of yours?
... 
Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl?
All we know for sure is that Ned told Robert the name of the girl Robert is thinking of once before. We have to guess at the context. Most people's guess is that Ned told Robert a lie about Wylla being Jon's mother. My guess is simply that the conversation went quite close to the one we see - Robert making cheery assumptions, happy his too perfect friend has proven human after all for once, Ned being tight-lipped and angry and uncomfortable and giving minimal safe information. 

Its still just a guess. I think its a better guess, but still a guess. And it can change completely with new info.

1 minute ago, Azarial said:

I could go either way on this as it is just a common phrase, so may not have any added meaning, and don't think it changes anything regardless. The fact that Cat is recollecting how she felt about a very general acknowledgement as apposed to recalling a specific event remains the biggest tick against taking her statement at face value regardless. I just see 'the whole north to see' bit as her being melodramatic as it was an emotional thing for her.

Oh I agree entirely.
I just use the 'see' vs 'hear' thing for the people who want to be entirely literal about it in order to 'make it count' that Ned told people Jon was his son.

[Azarial]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, it gets pooh-pooh-ed by many people.
But seriously. Does anyone think that Ned's visit to Starfall didn't get reported on to Robert? That Varys wasn't making every effort to ingratiate himself with his new master and keep his position (and head)? That Robert wasn't damned interested in where Ned had disappeared to after Storms End?

I always thought he'd hear something. Just wasn't sure what. It could have been Ned turned up with Lyanna's body and a baby and nothing else for all we know. Exactly what was reported would impact if Ned would need to lie. Since Vary's would be trying to win over Robert he would want to tell him something big. That is why my mind never went to something as simple as your explanation. But now that I've heard the missing piece I like it, really. 

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

what was her name, that common girl of yours?
... 
Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl?
All we know for sure is that Ned told Robert the name of the girl Robert is thinking of once before. We have to guess at the context. Most people's guess is that Ned told Robert a lie about Wylla being Jon's mother. My guess is simply that the conversation went quite close to the one we see - Robert making cheery assumptions, happy his too perfect friend has proven human after all for once, Ned being tight-lipped and angry and uncomfortable and giving minimal safe information. 

Its still just a guess. I think its a better guess, but still a guess. And it can change completely with new info.

This part I've seen you explain before, and it always made sense to me. It was just the one detail about how the past conversation would have gone that previously kept me from being fully sold on the Ned wouldn't need to lie at all even in the past, I was 90% sold on this theory working before and now I 100% get the theory, and it does fit. 

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

Oh I agree entirely.
I just use the 'see' vs 'hear' thing for the people who want to be entirely literal about it in order to 'make it count' that Ned told people Jon was his son.

 

 

[corbon]

14 minutes ago, Azarial said:

I always thought he'd hear something. Just wasn't sure what. It could have been Ned turned up with Lyanna's body

I doubt anyone knew he had Lyanna's body with him - if he even did.

Either he boiled her corpse down to bones, as Barristan mentioned, and had the bones tucked away out of sight at Starfall, or he'd already given them to the Silent Sisters somewhere along the way. Surely.
Having Lyanna's bones with him (publicly) seems like a direct invite to very dangerous questions...

[Azarial]

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

I doubt anyone knew he had Lyanna's body with him - if he even did.

Either he boiled her corpse down to bones, as Barristan mentioned, and had the bones tucked away out of sight at Starfall, or he'd already given them to the Silent Sisters somewhere along the way. Surely.
Having Lyanna's bones with him (publicly) seems like a direct invite to very dangerous questions...

I'm not arguing that I believed that lol. But we aren't told so it is the most extreme option, no matter how unlikely. Most likely is that Howland dealt with the bones, and Ned dealt with Jon ensuring neither was ever linked with the other, and explaining why only Ned was mentioned as going to Starfall. I was simply giving an example of the worst possible thing Varys could have said to Robert.  The if Robert heard this Ned would have to lie extreme end of the spectrum of possibilities. 

I hadn't really thought of what Robert heard, and your option never occurred to me as most people seem to think he heard nothing (silly) or that Ned, Howland, and Wylla all stayed together and made up a story (some that Ashara was also involved) that Varys then relayed(complicated). But my belief of Ned and Howland split up, agreeing to meet at the port near Starfall at a set time, fits pretty well with yours as it removes the complication of there being a second lord present as a possible father. Having Ned, a woman and a baby riding up like a family really works with your theory.  And that's my current head cannon until GRRM says different. Plus we have an example of this sort of action with Brienne and Pod, as well as Dunk and Egg, so why not here too.

[RedDragon]

The only thing totters of rlj alternatives have managed is to convince me that they’re possible but nothing really beyond that. If it’s not rlj I would say ned and ahsara would be my chosen alternative.

I will say I think the reason ahsara jumped out of a tower was because of Brandon 

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ha, ok whatever you say.  Cat specifically notes that Ned called Jon his son for all the North to hear.  In the very first chapter we meet Jon and Ned, he calls him his son.  Jon is known as the Bastard of Winterfell.  And it’s commonly known by everyone that Jon is Ned’s son, and the half brother to Ned’s children.  

But there is no evidence that Ned ever called Jon his son.  

It's as if we are living in some epic fantasy where the character with the answers gets his head cut off in the middle of the first season. With Ned, it's always the case that the dog didn't bark and what he doesn't say is as important as what he does say or think. 

Quote

Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

My son Bran …"

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

The only thing I know for certain is that Ned is not Jon's biological father, since in the privacy of his own mind, Jon is not included as Ned's offspring.   So, that eliminates Ashera and Wylla for me.   He is covering for Lyanna and giving Jon his protection and he is very canny about not revealing a single true thing about Jon's father.  Except that Jon is Stark blood and Ned won't be questioned about it..  Jon Snow is a bastard by virtue of his name, if not anything else and people accept Ned as his father whether Ned says so specifically or not.  

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

I doubt anyone knew he had Lyanna's body with him - if he even did.

Either he boiled her corpse down to bones, as Barristan mentioned, and had the bones tucked away out of sight at Starfall, or he'd already given them to the Silent Sisters somewhere along the way. Surely.
Having Lyanna's bones with him (publicly) seems like a direct invite to very dangerous questions...

I've said my theory many times in the past, but just to add it to the mix here once again, I think it likely Howland takes Jon, his not Wylla the wet-nurse, and Lyanna's bones on ahead towards Winterfell when Ned goes to King's Landing to tell Robert of Lyanna's death. I see no reason for Ned to allow the bones to risk examination, have any witness to the events at the tower subject to questioning, or anyone have an opportunity to take hold of the infant Jon if they have somehow figured the truth out. Whether or not Lord Eddard meets Howland and Jon somewhere on the road to Winterfell or at Winterfell itself seems immaterial to the main motivation of Ned's actions here. He has to keep Jon safe and his secret hidden.

I will also add that there is a bit of a legalistic argument about whether or not Ned ever calls Jon his son directly. To me, the whole point is that Ned lives his life conforming to the lie that Jon is his son. Ned knows he is lying to Catelyn, to Robert, to the people of Winterfell, and to the people of Westeros. He owns those lies in his own thoughts.

Does it make a difference that Ned tries to not lie in his spoken word as much as possible? I suppose it tells us something about how Ned covers over his lies, but it doesn't show that he doesn't lie. He lies. By what he says, by the omission when he doesn't deny a lie, and by what his actions show and allow, and encourages, others to believe. 

I'm fairly certain, he does all of this because of two things. He has chosen love over honor in his promises to Lyanna, and that means hiding Jon's origin by a life of lies to most of the world about his relationship to Jon to keep those promises. And secondly, because he loves Jon as much as if he was his own son, and his safety is something Ned would die to protect. Indeed, reading the line "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know" should tell us of what Ned Stark feels for his nephew. He will protect Jon even at the detriment that protection cost his marriage. Lord Stark loves all of his children, including one that is really his sister's son.