B+A=J almost makes sense

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I will also add that there is a bit of a legalistic argument about whether or not Ned ever calls Jon his son directly. To me, the whole point is that Ned lives his life conforming to the lie that Jon is his son. Ned knows he is lying to Catelyn, to Robert, to the people of Winterfell, and to the people of Westeros. He owns those lies in his own thoughts.

Does it make a difference that Ned tries to not lie in his spoken word as much as possible? I suppose it tells us something about how Ned covers over his lies, but it doesn't show that he doesn't lie. He lies. By what he says, by the omission when he doesn't deny a lie, and by what his actions show and allow, and encourages, others to believe. 

If you mean that there is a legal significance in Ned calling Jon his son, then yes, you are correct.  It’s called an acknowledgment of paternity.  And it definitely has legal significance in in Westeros.  It’s the reason that Cat has such animosity towards Jon.  He’s a threat to her family’s inheritance.  It also provides Jon a substantial amount of protection being the acknowledged son of Eddard Stark.

It’s why this argument about Ned ever actually calling Jon his son such a farce.  As a Lord of the North, he doesn’t have the luxury of just letting people make an assumption as to his relationship with Jon.  He has a duty and responsibility of spelling out his relationship with Jon.  (And the fact that Ned actually calls Jon his son in the only chapter that they actually share together kind of puts this entire debate to bed).  

I think Ned’s argument with Cat, where Ned tells Cat he is his blood needs to be put in context.  Ned’s dealing with his wife at this point, and not the North or Winterfell as a whole.  Ned’s anger is also up.  So now we’re in deeply personal territory here.  Presumably Ned has a harder time lying to someone like his wife than he would his subjects.  And I think this is magnified when Ned gets personally indignant.  I think Ned can lie, he’s just not very good at it.  So when he becomes righteously indignant, it’s harder for him to also intertwine his cover story for Jon.

So Ned tells Cat exactly what she needs to know and no more, and makes it clear to her that they’re not going to have the conversation any more.  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Found another one

acharradh means "sprite" (ghost) in gaelic  and right above and below acharradh are words meaning "harbor, ships, moored, and anchor"  Ashara was at White Harbor.

So, gwylla, acharradh, asharir, lemur, le morte, and aileanta all mean "ghost" / "the dead"

 

aschu means "eel" in gaelic, 

naid means "lamprey" (eel) and "husband" "sinner" and naide means "infant" (and right above it is "ship")

Wyman is "Lord Lamprey"

uaim (wym) means "union" "joining together" and "den"

Ned and Ashara take a ship to White Harbor and get joined together by Wyman at the Wolf's Den at White Harbor.  naid means husband, and naide means infant, and Ned comes away with an infant.

the word right above aschu means a "dry cow" and Jon needed a wet nurse, and Ned Dayne needed a wet nurse because his mother couldn't produce milk, and they were milk brothers,

Lemore has stretch marks from birth, but her breasts are nice for a 40-something-year old woman.  She was dry, she couldn't produce milk.  She was a dry cow.

llamwyr / llam means "leaper" in Welsh, and neid /naid is given in both definitions, the word meaning "lamprey" is sandwiched between them.

[SFDanny]

55 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you mean that there is a legal significance in Ned calling Jon his son, then yes, you are correct.  It’s called an acknowledgment of paternity.  And it definitely has legal significance in in Westeros.  It’s the reason that Cat has such animosity towards Jon.  He’s a threat to her family’s inheritance.  It also provides Jon a substantial amount of protection being the acknowledged son of Eddard Stark.

That's not what I meant when I used the phrase "a bit of a legalistic argument" over exactly what Ned calls Jon. But I'll get to what I meant later, let me respond to the above.

There can be no real doubt Jon is acknowledged as Ned's son. The evidence for this is overwhelming. Whether or not there exists some more formal step to actually acknowledge a bastard child as his without asking for the child to have the "taint" of bastardy removed and become recognized as a "legitimate" heir is unknown to me, but rather irrelevant to the simple fact everyone accepts Jon as Ned's bastard son. Obviously, Ned could dispute this status, but he, instead, encourages it in his daily word, actions, and inaction to change this acceptance. 

I also think it is rather obvious at this point that this is one of the lies Ned has lived for the past fourteen years, and is the result of the promises he gave to his dying sister.

While I agree Catelyn sees Jon as a threat to her own children's inheritance, I think it goes much farther than that. She sees Jon's recognition as a  possible future danger, but she sees his forced acceptance into her household as a personal affront. Although Ned, I believe, does not mean it that way, he has to know she is right to see it that way. It is a constant reminder of Ned's love for Jon's unknown mother. 

Jon is schooled in the same skills that Robb is, and done so alongside the legitimate Stark heir. To the point he is better than Robb at some of the skills they share. Jon has developed a loving trusted relationship with most of his "siblings" and is acknowledged as part of the family by one and all in every daily way that matters. All over Catelyn's wishes, and what would be "normal" for a bastard child in noble families across Westeros with the exception of Dorne and among the Free Folk. From Catelyn's perspective she has every reason to be deeply threatened and deeply hurt by Ned's acceptance of Jon into her household. And, yes, it provides an level of protection, and privilege, for Jon to live in Winterfell alongside Cat's children uncustomary to bastard children of most noble fathers.

The question is why does Ned do this, not whether or not Ned acknowledges Jon as his son. In every meaningful way short of petitioning the king to legitimize him, Lord Stark does so. And, as I have said, I think the solution to understanding this puzzlingly behavior is just who Jon's real parents are.

In short, if I understand your position on the question of "acknowledging" Jon, I think you're right.

No, the reason I used the phrase "a bit of a legalistic argument" is that I think sometimes, we as readers, are guilty of parsing a word or a phrase in ways that misses the context of the story we are reading. With much respect to my friend @corbon I think that is what is going on in this debate. We act like lawyers and miss the forest for the individual sapling, to mix and strain a metaphor.

What I see as valuable in looking at the rather peculiar way Ned sometimes phrases things about Jon, is I do think we are meant to see some of the possible shading of meanings he uses as clues to a deeper meaning of what is really going on with Ned and Jon's relationship. That is particularly true in his use of the phrase, "he is my blood." Ned is not telling anyone outside of Robert any damn thing about who Jon's mother really is. He only tells Robert what he does because he is the one person he must respond to if asked to do so. It is a mystery from almost the beginning of the series until the last published word about Jon. The reader should wonder why.

But the reader shouldn't confuse unwinding that mystery with the way Jon is treated by Ned. The latter tells us a lot about the former, but the the reality of the way Jon is treated by Ned is laid out for everyone to see. It is not a mystery in itself. The why is the mystery, not the evidence of Jon's acceptance into the Stark household.

 

[lehutin]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

The only thing I know for certain is that Ned is not Jon's biological father, since in the privacy of his own mind, Jon is not included as Ned's offspring.

I agree 100%. I have never read a convincing rebuttal to this point. I've seen people argue that

• Jon's name is "implied" or omitted for "brevity" (convenient that he's the only one who's implied/omitted like this)
• Jon is a bastard and thus shouldn't be together with Robb and the rest (Cersei asked about "your children" with no constraint on their legitimacy)
• Ned thinks of Jon anyway (total dodge to why Ned omits Jon from his named list of children in his own mind)

45 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Found another one

Suppose the relationship between Ned and Ashara happened as you propose. Simple question: why doesn't Ned Stark ever think of Ashara in any of his 15 POV chapters?

 

He does not think of her in any context or for any reason or in response to any prompt. He doesn't even think of her

1. when Cersei mentions her name, which is also the only time Ashara's name ever appears in all of Ned's POV chapters
2. or in his final POV chapter, when Ned is in the Black Cells and dreams of Harrenhal again.

Not only that, Ned doesn't even think of anything that might remotely be connected to Ashara, like purple or a dance (cf. "pale blue roses" and Lyanna).

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, lehutin said:

I agree 100%. I have never read a convincing rebuttal to this point. I've seen people argue that

• Jon's name is "implied" or omitted for "brevity" (convenient that he's the only one who's implied/omitted like this)
• Jon is a bastard and thus shouldn't be together with Robb and the rest (Cersei asked about "your children" with no constraint on their legitimacy)
• Ned thinks of Jon anyway (total dodge to why Ned omits Jon from his named list of children in his own mind)

I've never seen these arguments before or I don't remember.   Sometimes you have to take the author at his word rather than trying to explain it away.   These are Ned's internal thoughts and I think they reflect the truth.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 minute ago, lehutin said:

Suppose the relationship between Ned and Ashara happened as you propose. Simple question: why doesn't Ned Stark ever think of Ashara in any of his 15 POV chapters?

 

He does not think of her in any context or for any reason or in response to any prompt. He doesn't even think of her

1. when Cersei mentions her name, which is also the only time Ashara's name ever appears in all of Ned's POV chapters
2. or in his final POV chapter, when Ned is in the Black Cells and dreams of Harrenhal again.

Not only that, Ned doesn't even think of anything that might remotely be connected to Ashara, like purple or a dance (cf. "pale blue roses" and Lyanna).

Simple answer is that it would give away too much. 

If R + L = J is true, why did Ned not immediately get word to Jon when Robert died?  Or mention to anyone who Jon really was when Jon was no longer in danger?  Or support Jon as being the trueborn heir to the Targaryen dynasty and the Iron Throne?--instead he put his support behind Stannis.  He must have thought Jon had no claim to the throne,  And why when Robert was questioning Ned about Jon's mother, Ned's reaction was one of anger rather than fear? 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Simple answer is that it would give away too much. 
 

So the solution to avoid giving too much away is to do an asspull? Because that’s what it would be... what you think are clues supporting N+A=J aren’t proper clues. Yes, there are a few things, red herrings imo, but not the ones you keep bringing up. Where is the textual support for Ashara having travelled to White Harbour with Ned? What about Ashara having spent many months there, in the Wolf’s Den and giving birth to Jon there? And no, the meaning of some words from a Gaelic thesaurus don’t qualify. 

14 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If R + L = J is true, why did Ned not immediately get word to Jon when Robert died?  Or mention to anyone who Jon really was when Jon was no longer in danger?  Or support Jon as being the trueborn heir to the Targaryen dynasty and the Iron Throne?--instead he put his support behind Stannis.  He must have thought Jon had no claim to the throne,  And why when Robert was questioning Ned about Jon's mother, Ned's reaction was one of anger rather than fear? 

So, are you saying that, as soon as Robert dies, Ned should have told him the truth? Jon wasn’t immediately safe just because Robert died, you are aware of that, right? But let’s leave that for now. How should he go about that? He was in KL, so I suppose he sends two ravens, one to CB and one to Winterfell, where he informs everyone that, “hey, FYI, Jon is actually the son of my sister Lyanna and crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, and not really my bastard son”. 
 

[lehutin]

23 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Simple answer is that it would give away too much. 

To see why that's a bad answer, remember that Ned frequently thinks of Lyanna. Yet you don't believe that "gave away" anything.

 

So all the times Ned thought of Lyanna gave away nothing, but if Ned thinks of Ashara even once, that gives away "too much"? C'mon.

 

26 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If R + L = J is true, why did Ned not immediately get word to Jon when Robert died? 

Which is more urgent for Ned immediately after Robert dies?

1. Telling Jon that his parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.
2. Ensuring that the throne smoothly passes to Stannis Baratheon.

If everything had gone according to plan for Ned, he would've had all the time in the world to pay his nephew a visit and tell him the truth. That simply wasn't an urgent priority in the immediate aftermath of Robert's death and with Ned's firm knowledge that Joffrey is not Robert's heir.

31 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Or mention to anyone who Jon really was when Jon was no longer in danger?

Same answer as before. You're forgetting that Ned didn't really have that much time after Robert died. He rejected Renly's offer of help, was making plans to get his family out of King's Landing, rejected Littlefinger's offer of help, and then decided to trust Littlefinger to bribe the Gold Cloaks. Ned's primary concern was to ensure that the throne smoothly passed to Stannis.

 

33 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Or support Jon as being the trueborn heir to the Targaryen dynasty and the Iron Throne?

With what army?

 

If you'd like to play rhetorical questions, how about this: if Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's mother, why can't Ned just say that to Jon, Cat, etc.? If true, it's not even a secret given how widespread it is as a rumor. So what was the point of the secrecy?

 

Please don't tell me your answer is that Ned Stark actually married Ashara Dayne and instead of being an honorable and loving husband and father, is actually a bigamist deadbeat dad who scammed his trueborn eldest son out of Winterfell because he had to do a baby swap to protect Lyanna's Valyrian-looking son with Rhaegar.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

11 minutes ago, lehutin said:

if Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's mother, why can't Ned just say that to Jon, Cat, etc.? If true, it's not even a secret given how widespread it is as a rumor. So what was the point of the secrecy?

I said before, if Riverrun knew Ned's marriage to Cat was bogus, the north would be torn apart in civil war.  But he was going to tell Jon as soon as Jon was old enough. 

14 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Ned Stark actually married Ashara Dayne and instead of being an honorable and loving husband and father, is actually a bigamist deadbeat dad who scammed his trueborn eldest son out of Winterfell because he had to do a baby swap to protect Lyanna's Valyrian-looking son with Rhaegar.

I think Ned actually did the kindest, most compassionate thing possible in this scenario.  He sacrificed his happiness, Ashara's happiness, and Jon's happiness for the sake of the realm, and getting Riverrun into the Northern alliance in the Rebellion.  He did the right thing.  He took care of Jon, and Ashara joined the church, and everybody was okay. 

Contrast this with what Robb did, and Robb's actions tore the North apart.

 

Still when Ned thinks of Jon the primary emotion is shame,

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words."

 

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

Ned is thinking about Robert's bastards, he pictures Jon's face (a younger version of Ned's) and then Littlefinger says Jon is Ned's bastard.  Littlefinger is known as something of an authority on whose bastards belong to whom. 

 

I just went back and checked, Ned supports Stannis in the chapter immediately before Jon has taken his vows at the Nights Watch.  So Jon wasn't disqualified yet--I think this is important.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If R + L = J is true, why did Ned not immediately get word to Jon when Robert died? 

He wasn't with Jon, they where really far away, and sending a letter is not an option, as there is no chance that a letter sent by Ned from King's Landing after Robert dies is gonna get read by, at least, Varys, Cersei, Little Finger and Pycelle.

Even if he wanted to tell Jon, he could wait, he waited for fourteen years.

 

Quote

Or mention to anyone who Jon really was when Jon was no longer in danger?  Or support Jon as being the trueborn heir to the Targaryen dynasty and the Iron Throne?--

If people knew who Jon was he never would be not in danger, he becomes a viable choice for King, meaning anyone wanting the throne (Stannis and Cersei/Tywin) would want him dead. That'd be a dumb thing to do if he wanted him to be safe.

Quote

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this."

ADWD Tyrion I

 

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

And why when Robert was questioning Ned about Jon's mother, Ned's reaction was one of anger rather than fear? 

Why would he be afraid, he knows Robert suspects nothing.

(and FIY, I'm not that convinced by R+L=J, I think it's the best guess we have, but I still dislike it when people take it as a certain fact, but that theory of yours (and the worst youtube channel tied to ASOIAF ever) makes little sense.)

 

13 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

Ned is thinking about Robert's bastards, he pictures Jon's face (a younger version of Ned's) and then Littlefinger says Jon is Ned's bastard.  Littlefinger is known as something of an authority on whose bastards belong to whom. 

... Exactly. Ned thinks about Jon when thinking about bastards, he wouldn't if Jon wasn't a bastard.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

What about Ashara having spent many months there, in the Wolf’s Den and giving birth to Jon there?

Jon's story parallels the Bael the Bard story right?  Bael and the Stark maid stay in the crypts under Winterfell for 9 months, and the Stark maid later throws herself out of a tower.

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark."

 . . .

"When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

 

Entire pregnancy spent in a crypt, with "the dead" right under Winterfell --the donjon at White Harbor where "the dead" are kept, close proximity to Winterfell.  Bastard baby born there becomes next Stark Lord.

The father's head ends up on a spear--Ned

The mother throws herself from a tower--Ashara

the son doesn't long outlive them and gets killed by his own men--Jon

[lehutin]

12 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I said before, if Riverrun knew Ned's marriage to Cat was bogus, the north would be torn apart in civil war.  But he was going to tell Jon as soon as Jon was old enough. 

 

12 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think Ned actually did the kindest, most compassionate thing possible in this scenario.  He sacrificed his happiness, Ashara's happiness, and Jon's happiness for the sake of the realm, and getting Riverrun into the Northern alliance in the Rebellion.  He did the right thing.  He took care of Jon, and Ashara joined the church, and everybody was okay. 

Ah, the Order of the Greenhand's fanfic. It has many flaws, but the relevant flaw that connects back to the topic (the trueborn version of B+A=J) is that it makes Hoster Tully the "big bad" of the series, a character

• who is lord of a region that is easily invaded and whose forces suffer from insubordination (Freys) and feuds (Brackens + Blackwoods).
• who even in his prime, could not get one of his own vassals (Walder Frey) to show up to the Trident on time.
• who at the start of the series, is so far past his prime that the Freys at the Crossroads do not even bother to get involved with Catelyn and Tyrion.

This is the character that motivates Ned to keep Jon's mother a secret from everyone?

[RedDragon]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That's not what I meant when I used the phrase "a bit of a legalistic argument" over exactly what Ned calls Jon. But I'll get to what I meant later, let me respond to the above.

There can be no real doubt Jon is acknowledged as Ned's son. The evidence for this is overwhelming. Whether or not there exists some more formal step to actually acknowledge a bastard child as his without asking for the child to have the "taint" of bastardy removed and become recognized as a "legitimate" heir is unknown to me, but rather irrelevant to the simple fact everyone accepts Jon as Ned's bastard son. Obviously, Ned could dispute this status, but he, instead, encourages it in his daily word, actions, and inaction to change this acceptance. 

I also think it is rather obvious at this point that this is one of the lies Ned has lived for the past fourteen years, and is the result of the promises he gave to his dying sister.

While I agree Catelyn sees Jon as a threat to her own children's inheritance, I think it goes much farther than that. She sees Jon's recognition as a  possible future danger, but she sees his forced acceptance into her household as a personal affront. Although Ned, I believe, does not mean it that way, he has to know she is right to see it that way. It is a constant reminder of Ned's love for Jon's unknown mother. 

Jon is schooled in the same skills that Robb is, and done so alongside the legitimate Stark heir. To the point he is better than Robb at some of the skills they share. Jon has developed a loving trusted relationship with most of his "siblings" and is acknowledged as part of the family by one and all in every daily way that matters. All over Catelyn's wishes, and what would be "normal" for a bastard child in noble families across Westeros with the exception of Dorne and among the Free Folk. From Catelyn's perspective she has every reason to be deeply threatened and deeply hurt by Ned's acceptance of Jon into her household. And, yes, it provides an level of protection, and privilege, for Jon to live in Winterfell alongside Cat's children uncustomary to bastard children of most noble fathers.

The question is why does Ned do this, not whether or not Ned acknowledges Jon as his son. In every meaningful way short of petitioning the king to legitimize him, Lord Stark does so. And, as I have said, I think the solution to understanding this puzzlingly behavior is just who Jon's real parents are.

In short, if I understand your position on the question of "acknowledging" Jon, I think you're right.

No, the reason I used the phrase "a bit of a legalistic argument" is that I think sometimes, we as readers, are guilty of parsing a word or a phrase in ways that misses the context of the story we are reading. With much respect to my friend @corbon I think that is what is going on in this debate. We act like lawyers and miss the forest for the individual sapling, to mix and strain a metaphor.

What I see as valuable in looking at the rather peculiar way Ned sometimes phrases things about Jon, is I do think we are meant to see some of the possible shading of meanings he uses as clues to a deeper meaning of what is really going on with Ned and Jon's relationship. That is particularly true in his use of the phrase, "he is my blood." Ned is not telling anyone outside of Robert any damn thing about who Jon's mother really is. He only tells Robert what he does because he is the one person he must respond to if asked to do so. It is a mystery from almost the beginning of the series until the last published word about Jon. The reader should wonder why.

But the reader shouldn't confuse unwinding that mystery with the way Jon is treated by Ned. The latter tells us a lot about the former, but the the reality of the way Jon is treated by Ned is laid out for everyone to see. It is not a mystery in itself. The why is the mystery, not the evidence of Jon's acceptance into the Stark household.

 

That’s a genuinely well written read on the situation. I’d like to offer catlyn gripes are indeed more personal than actually founded. If ned wanted to get Jon legitimized holy hell he could have. Robert is his best friend and Robert himself holds ned higher than his own siblings. 
 

for all of her talk of bastards causing problems thats only in the case of the targ and the great bastards who were legitimized which Jon was not. 
 

she has a right to be angry and I don’t think people fault her for that. Well they might. What makes the situation tragic is she would probably regret her actions if she knew the truth in the case of this theory or rlj 

[The Green Bard]

On 10/28/2020 at 10:21 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So, obviously R+L=J is true, but one thing that is interesting is that Jon being Brandon's and Ashara's actually makes sense. It would make sense for Ned to hide who he is, given the messy succession implications that would follow, and the schemers trying to put him in charge at Winterfell, not to mention claiming him as his to hide his brother's dishonor is a very Ned thing to do, like when he takes responsability for Cat kidnapping Tyrion. The only piece of evidence against this theory is Lyanna being "in a bed of blood", but other then that B+A=J actually almost holds up. So what do you think, is it a very fun Red Herring or is it more improbable then I think?

I think we're not quite discussing the right thing.  people get all defensive and naysaying when Jon's parentage is brought into it.  To me a better way to look at it is this:  Is B+A possible for Ashara's babe? Forget for a while who that babe is.  Treat that as a completely separate mystery.  I dare say it Brandon is one of the best candidates for Ashara's baby-daddy, although certainly Barristan could be wrong that she "looked to Stark".  

As far as the timeline arguments, I get so annoyed with how many people think they have the timeline of Robert's rebellion figured out, when the fact is that George never bothered to figure it out himself until he'd already tied it in a knot that simply makes no sense.  Personally, I think it could work if she met with him either in King's Landing while he was held prisoner, or the conception could have been at the Harrenhal tourney.  

I know that Ideas of Ice and Fire have a theory that Ashara Dayne married Howland Reed and went into hiding, becoming Gyanna Reed.  Even if it's true, it doesn't necessarily mean that Meera is Howland's blood daughter, though.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, lehutin said:

 

Ah, the Order of the Greenhand's fanfic. It has many flaws,

You read the bold and the underlined goes w/o saying. 

14 minutes ago, lehutin said:

but the relevant flaw that connects back to the topic (the trueborn version of B+A=J) is that it makes Hoster Tully the "big bad" of the series, a character

• who is lord of a region that is easily invaded and whose forces suffer from insubordination (Freys) and feuds (Brackens + Blackwoods).
• who even in his prime, could not get one of his own vassals (Walder Frey) to show up to the Trident on time.
• who at the start of the series, is so far past his prime that the Freys at the Crossroads do not even bother to get involved with Catelyn and Tyrion.

This is the character that motivates Ned to keep Jon's mother a secret from everyone?

Exactly. And just, please, please, make it stop b/c it's hurting my brain. Ned Stark did not marry two women. If he had, we'd get something, anything, to clue us in. And we don't. Not only that, but the utter and complete lack of thoughts for wife #1 Ashara is a huge tell, given who Ned is. 

[CamiloRP]

28 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Jon's story parallels the Bael the Bard story right?  Bael and the Stark maid stay in the crypts under Winterfell for 9 months, and the Stark maid later throws herself out of a tower.

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark."

 . . .

"When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

 

Entire pregnancy spent in a crypt, with "the dead" right under Winterfell --the donjon at White Harbor where "the dead" are kept, close proximity to Winterfell.  Bastard baby born there becomes next Stark Lord.

The father's head ends up on a spear--Ned

The mother throws herself from a tower--Ashara

the son doesn't long outlive them and gets killed by his own men--Jon

You could make that argument for Brandon and Ashara having sex in the Black Cells.

Rhaegar also parallels Bael The Bard (he's a bard who gives a blue rose to the daughter of Lord Stark and then steals her)

 In fact, the Wolf's Den thing has less evidence than any of those.

[CamiloRP]

25 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Ah, the Order of the Greenhand's fanfic.

I think, and I dare to say that even George may agree with me on this, fanfic is more respectable that whatever-the-fuck The Order Of The Greenhand makes.

[lehutin]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ned Stark did not marry two women. If he had, we'd get something, anything, to clue us in. And we don't.

I believe an "argument" used to support Ned's bigamy is a line from Tywin in ASOS Tyrion III:

Quote

“Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter,” said Lord Tywin, “and Robb Stark is his father’s son.”

So just like his old man, Robb married two women and then for "the greater good," never told anyone about his first, Frey wife 

 

Seriously, though, I find it hilarious that this line is used by bigamist Ned folks as "evidence." If Robb had treated Jeyne the way Ned supposedly treated Ashara, Robb Stark would still have his head! What is up with these fanfics totally missing why Ned and Robb lost their heads???

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I think we're not quite discussing the right thing.  people get all defensive and naysaying when Jon's parentage is brought into it.  To me a better way to look at it is this:  Is B+A possible for Ashara's babe? Forget for a while who that babe is.  Treat that as a completely separate mystery.  I dare say it Brandon is one of the best candidates for Ashara's baby-daddy, although certainly Barristan could be wrong that she "looked to Stark".  

As far as the timeline arguments, I get so annoyed with how many people think they have the timeline of Robert's rebellion figured out, when the fact is that George never bothered to figure it out himself until he'd already tied it in a knot that simply makes no sense.  Personally, I think it could work if she met with him either in King's Landing while he was held prisoner, or the conception could have been at the Harrenhal tourney.  

Brandon may very well be the father of Ashara's baby, if she really had a baby. And it's fine to ignore the baby's identity as long as we keep in mind that said baby can't be Jon. Because Ashara conceiving Jon with Brandon while he was a prisoner in KL is far-fetched, but more importantly unsupported by the text. And we all have our own ideas about the timeline, but Harrenhal doesn't work for Jon's conception. Mostly b/c the age difference between Jon and Robb becomes such that no one would ever believe Jon is younger than Robb. 

 

13 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I know that Ideas of Ice and Fire have a theory that Ashara Dayne married Howland Reed and went into hiding, becoming Gyanna Reed.  Even if it's true, it doesn't necessarily mean that Meera is Howland's blood daughter, though.

Just curious, are you suggesting that Meera is Jon's twin sister?

[lehutin]

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You could make that argument for Brandon and Ashara having sex in the Black Cells.

At this point, I just want some fanfic authors to admit they're writing fanporn. I ain't judging BTW; I find the idea of a conjugal visit in the Black Cells quite alluring...