B+A=J almost makes sense

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You could make that argument for Brandon and Ashara having sex in the Black Cells.

Rhaegar also parallels Bael The Bard (he's a bard who gives a blue rose to the daughter of Lord Stark and then steals her)

 In fact, the Wolf's Den thing has less evidence than any of those.

Agree w/ everything except the first part. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, lehutin said:

I believe an "argument" used to support Ned's bigamy is a line from Tywin in ASOS Tyrion III:

So just like his old man, Robb married two women and then for "the greater good," never told anyone about his first, Frey wife 

 

Seriously, though, I find it hilarious that this line is used by bigamist Ned folks as "evidence." If Robb had treated Jeyne the way Ned supposedly treated Ashara, Robb Stark would still have his head! What is up with these fanfics totally missing why Ned and Robb lost their heads???

This is so absurd it's actually funny!

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Jon's story parallels the Bael the Bard story right?

I like this game... but what if we swap the genders, and play with it a bit? 

Bael disguises himself as a singer to teach Stark a lesson about honor
Lyanna disguises herself as the mystery knight, to teach a lesson about honor

Bael gets a blue rose as a reward
Lyanna is crowned Queen of Love and Beauty with blue roses

Lord Stark sends men searching for Bael, but they can't find him
Aerys sends men after the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but they return empty handed

The Stark line was on the verge of extinction when the daughter and grandson appear in her room, they had been with the dead in the crypts
The Targaryens face the greatest threat since the Blackfyres, and Rhaegar returns from the south, where he had been with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy (Where Lord Stark buried his dead)

Incapable of killing his own Blood, Bael lets himself be killed by Lord Stark
Arthur Dayne, Knight of the Kingsguard (Stand in for Rhaegar), falls to the young Lord Stark, although the details still remain a mystery, Howland Reed (whose honor was originally in question here) was involved

Lord Stark brings the head of Bael back to Winterfell and his mother jumps from a tower
Lord Stark brings Dawn to Starfall, and Ashara jumps from a tower

A bard's truth is different than yours or mine... "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.
Aegon did not long outlive Rhaegar and Young Griff has now appeared claiming to be Rhaegar's son ("wearing his skin").

Edit/Note: I feel remiss in any discussion of Bael if I don't also note the fact that it an anagram of Able (which Mance even uses as his name when sneaking into Winterfell), who is the classic biblical victim of kinslaying.

[The Green Bard]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Just curious, are you suggesting that Meera is Jon's twin sister?

No, Brandon and Ashara's daughter, possibly, but Meera isn't tall, so that's a hurdle. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

No, Brandon and Ashara's daughter, possibly, but Meera isn't tall, so that's a hurdle. 

Oh I see. Any specific reason why? Or, what led you to this in the first place? Maybe the fact that we're not sure of Ashara's baby's fate (or even of she really had one?), and the idea that it would be interesting to have this child appear on the page? No idea really, just curious and throwing possibilities out there. 

[The Green Bard]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Brandon may very well be the father of Ashara's baby, if she really had a baby. And it's fine to ignore the baby's identity as long as we keep in mind that said baby can't be Jon. Because Ashara conceiving Jon with Brandon while he was a prisoner in KL is far-fetched, but more importantly unsupported by the text. And we all have our own ideas about the timeline, but Harrenhal doesn't work for Jon's conception. Mostly b/c the age difference between Jon and Robb becomes such that no one would ever believe Jon is younger than Robb.

Agree, not Jon.

Unsupported by the text in that there is no direct evidence, but we know that people with power can pull strings to get access to prisoners if they know the right people.  I dare say that Varys (who was certainly there), might have arranged a meeting, just as he did for himself with Ned and Jaime with Tyrion.  Those parallels make it feasible.  

[CamiloRP]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree w/ everything except the first part. 

I was not saying that it happened, I was just saying that if you invent a part of the story and say it parallels another, then yeah, off course.

A similar thing happened in the Jaqen=Aegon argument.

But you can't use 'it would parallel Bael The Bard' as an evidence for Ned and Ashara spending their honeymoon in the Wolf's Den, as, if you claim Ashara and Brandon had sex in the Black Cells you have the same parallel. Mother jumped of a tower, father's head on a spear (I mean, likely, right?) and then the fanfic porking in a dungeon.

 

[CamiloRP]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is so absurd it's actually funny!

It's actually the main argument TOOTGH makes, that video is sooooooo stupid, even for their standards

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, CamiloRP said:

I was not saying that it happened, I was just saying that if you invent a part of the story and say it parallels another, then yeah, off course.

A similar thing happened in the Jaqen=Aegon argument.

But you can't use 'it would parallel Bael The Bard' as an evidence for Ned and Ashara spending their honeymoon in the Wolf's Den, as, if you claim Ashara and Brandon had sex in the Black Cells you have the same parallel. Mother jumped of a tower, father's head on a spear (I mean, likely, right?) and then the fanfic porking in a dungeon.

 

Yes, and the Jaqen=Aegon dead horse is still being beaten mercilessly!

I agree w/ you. And you know, there's something else... I have a problem w/ any "theory" if the strongest argument for a it is, "you can't say it's impossible". 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

It's actually the main argument TOOTGH makes, that video is sooooooo stupid, even for their standards

Yeah, they are terrible. Their "Cat is the worst person in the universe" series of vids is actually painful to watch. 

[The Green Bard]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh I see. Any specific reason why? Or, what led you to this in the first place? Maybe the fact that we're not sure of Ashara's baby's fate (or even of she really had one?), and the idea that it would be interesting to have this child appear on the page? No idea really, just curious and throwing possibilities out there. 

Exactly, it's just a mystery that needs a solution.  I have no answers only questions.  Could certainly be that if she had a first babe that died, that one was Brandon's.  Could be she is Gyanna Reed and Meera was conceived after the ToJ.  Could be her backstory is all true (save for the rumor about her being Jon's mom) and she's dead, but I think not.  Meera's tale of the Tourney at Harrenhal tells us that Ashara was very attractive.  Barbrey's tale of Brandon tells us that he took what he wanted and that he loved to sheath a sword.  Barristan connects the 2.  the latter two stories come in close proximity to eachother, so that's why i focus on them. It could mean nothing, and that Barry was hoodwinked by Ned arranging alone time for Ashara and Howland. George could be just trying to lay a false trail, like OP is suggesting.  OK enough ramblings.  

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Exactly, it's just a mystery that needs a solution.  I have no answers only questions.  Could certainly be that if she had a first babe that died, that one was Brandon's.  Could be she is Gyanna Reed and Meera was conceived after the ToJ.  Could be her backstory is all true (save for the rumor about her being Jon's mom) and she's dead, but I think not.  Meera's tale of the Tourney at Harrenhal tells us that Ashara was very attractive.  Barbrey's tale of Brandon tells us that he took what he wanted and that he loved to sheath a sword.  Barristan connects the 2.  the latter two stories come in close proximity to eachother, so that's why i focus on them. It could mean nothing, and that Barry was hoodwinked by Ned arranging alone time for Ashara and Howland. George could be just trying to lay a false trail, like OP is suggesting.  OK enough ramblings.  

Thanks. And I definitely think that if Ashara had a fling w/ a Stark, it was Brandon. 

[The Green Bard]

53 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Edit/Note: I feel remiss in any discussion of Bael if I don't also note the fact that it an anagram of Able (which Mance even uses as his name when sneaking into Winterfell), who is the classic biblical victim of kinslaying.

And that's the bard's truth... 

Let's extend a bit further, Mance as Able comes back to Winterfell twice.  The first time, Jon's brother falls/is pushed from a tower.  The second time Jon's "sister" jumped from a wall, with Theon, a kinslayer, with Abel's assistance.

One of the reasons I still retain a bit of interest in the idea that Arthur = Mance.  Even they're not the same character, which is highly likely the case, Mance and Arthur are very similar characters, mainly in their affinity for the downtrodden (wildlings and smallfolk of the kingswood).  There's also the kinslaying aspect to Arthur's part of the ToJ. Howland if connected to Ashara, would be killing his brother in-law.  All this to block Ned from seeing his dying sister, who dies, and her son, who is then protected by Ned.

[The Green Bard]

51 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

But you can't use 'it would parallel Bael The Bard' as an evidence for Ned and Ashara spending their honeymoon in the Wolf's Den, as, if you claim Ashara and Brandon had sex in the Black Cells you have the same parallel. Mother jumped of a tower, father's head on a spear (I mean, likely, right?) and then the fanfic porking in a dungeon.

Funny thing is, that is one of the few plausible things in that theory, that Ashara was "the fisherman's daughter."  However, it jumps the shark to suggest that they married.  It's completely out of left field.

By my view, if Ashara ever had carnal knowledge of a Stark, it was Brandon, which I think is the main thrust of @Alyn Oakenfist original point.  If Ashara did go to Ned, it was on a diplomatic mission; she'd be going of her own accord on behalf of Brandon or Rhaegar, not just for sexy time with Ned, because FTW, lol.  Obviously if my guess there is right, she arrived at the vale too late, Brandon and Rickard were already dead.  Any further travel she did with Ned was simply because there was a battle in Gulltown and that path home would be closed to her.  White Harbor is the obvious next choice for her voyage home, with her own silver.  Ned di leave her with a bag of silver and a baby in his belly... it's just that neither were his.  

But TOotGH just use that idea as a stepping stone to their predetermined conclusion, kinda ruining the validity of the rest of the analysis. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

No, Brandon and Ashara's daughter, possibly, but Meera isn't tall, so that's a hurdle. 

I think Meera's green eyes would be an issue too.

[The Green Bard]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Meera's green eyes would be an issue too.

I don't.  Alyssa Targaryen had 1 green eye and 1 purple.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

There can be no real doubt Jon is acknowledged as Ned's son. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

You've missed the point, as you explicitly note below.
"Acknowledgement" is a formal step. The only bastard noted as 'acknowledged' in the current timeline is Edric Storm. 
Ser Rodrik says that Ramsey Snow has not been acknowledged by Roose, to the best of his knowledge, yet he's already known as "Bolton's Bastard".
Sansa thinks that Lothar Brune, as lowly a Knight as it is possible to be, almost, is an excellent match for Mya Stone , though it would be very different if Robert had acknowledged her. But everyone, or at least most people, knows she's Robert's daughter.

I think you are talking about acceptance. Oops, yes, you actually use the word accept yourself below.

I think its entirely possible for a bastard to be accepted, without being acknowledged. Ramsey clearly is at this stage. Jon appears to be, since unlike Edric Storm there is no reference anywhere to him being "acknowledged" by Ned.
Mya I think is not as far along on the bastard-social-track. She's known', but not 'accepted' - probably primarily because of Cersei I'd guess, or perhaps because she's not living in her father's household. Certainly Mya's mother didn't have relatives suitably important to force Robert to 'acknowledge' her. 

Its also possible the difference between Edric and Jon/Ramsey/Mya is that Edric is known to have two noble parents. Whereas the others have a common mother (or unknown in Jon's case).
I don't think the difference is Robert's status as King.

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Whether or not there exists some more formal step to actually acknowledge a bastard child as his without asking for the child to have the "taint" of bastardy removed and become recognized as a "legitimate" heir is unknown to me,

Its clear there is. 

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but rather irrelevant to the simple fact everyone accepts Jon as Ned's bastard son. Obviously, Ned could dispute this status, but he, instead, encourages it in his daily word, actions, and inaction to change this acceptance. 

Agreed.

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No, the reason I used the phrase "a bit of a legalistic argument" is that I think sometimes, we as readers, are guilty of parsing a word or a phrase in ways that misses the context of the story we are reading. With much respect to my friend @corbon I think that is what is going on in this debate. We act like lawyers and miss the forest for the individual sapling, to mix and strain a metaphor.

Sure. There are wider discussions going on where the subtle differences are relevant though.

ETA: I think I'd classify this, on my part, as arguing against dogma. Most people assume Ned publicly claimed Jon as his bastard, and lied about it. All I'm doing, persistently, is pointing out that this assumption is not as warranted by the textual sources s people think.
It may still be true. Or not.

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What I see as valuable in looking at the rather peculiar way Ned sometimes phrases things about Jon, is I do think we are meant to see some of the possible shading of meanings he uses as clues to a deeper meaning of what is really going on with Ned and Jon's relationship. That is particularly true in his use of the phrase, "he is my blood." Ned is not telling anyone outside of Robert any damn thing about who Jon's mother really is.

Or even Robert in fact. Ned acts the same way with Robert as he does with Cat - he gets angry and shuts down the conversation. He just can't order Robert and bull over him he way he orders Cat.

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He only tells Robert what he does

I know, we've been here before, but the only thing he tells Robert is the name of the woman Robert is thinking of. 

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But the reader shouldn't confuse unwinding that mystery with the way Jon is treated by Ned. The latter tells us a lot about the former, but the the reality of the way Jon is treated by Ned is laid out for everyone to see. It is not a mystery in itself. The why is the mystery, not the evidence of Jon's acceptance into the Stark household.

Agreed.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, and the Jaqen=Aegon dead horse is still being beaten mercilessly!

I'm actually surprised I went on for such a long time, and after I stopped... others started, I kinda love it.

 

Quote

I agree w/ you. And you know, there's something else... I have a problem w/ any "theory" if the strongest argument for a it is, "you can't say it's impossible". 

Specially since almost anything is possible with the magic present in ASOIAF, you have teleportation, time travel, collective consciousness and face changing, you can use that to make anything possible.

The parallel/allegory/weird turn of phrase is a different monster, bc George does do that, a lot, but then people use it alone as definite proof of so many outlandish things

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, they are terrible. Their "Cat is the worst person in the universe" series of vids is actually painful to watch. 

Almost anything they do is! I love how the 'Lying Piece Of Shit Andals' (they say that so many times in that video it's impossible to forget) have a strange evil plan against the COTF and the Old Gods, but they also have a series on how the Old Gods and The Many Faced God are one and the same, and how The Many Faced God and The Seven are one and the same. Its complete madness.

They also seem like actual Red Raloo fanatics, which always seems like a big fucking trigger to me.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, CamiloRP said:

I'm actually surprised I went on for such a long time, and after I stopped... others started, I kinda love it.

 

Specially since almost anything is possible with the magic present in ASOIAF, you have teleportation, time travel, collective consciousness and face changing, you can use that to make anything possible.

The parallel/allegory/weird turn of phrase is a different monster, bc George does do that, a lot, but then people use it alone as definite proof of so many outlandish things

Not sure what you mean w/ teleportation and time travel.

 But yes, it's a fantasy so the argument often is, pretty much anything is possible. But the thing is, it isn't. 

And there are tons of stuff that haven't been officially revealed yet, and Martin likes to plant red herrings and leave things ambiguous until he's good and ready to make a reveal. But again, that doesn't mean anything is possible just because it isn't impossible.