B+A=J almost makes sense

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

Funny thing is, that is one of the few plausible things in that theory, that Ashara was "the fisherman's daughter."  However, it jumps the shark to suggest that they married.  It's completely out of left field.

Why do you think is was her?

 

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By my view, if Ashara ever had carnal knowledge of a Stark, it was Brandon, which I think is the main thrust of @Alyn Oakenfist original point.  If Ashara did go to Ned, it was on a diplomatic mission; she'd be going of her own accord on behalf of Brandon or Rhaegar, not just for sexy time with Ned, because FTW, lol.  Obviously if my guess there is right, she arrived at the vale too late, Brandon and Rickard were already dead.  Any further travel she did with Ned was simply because there was a battle in Gulltown and that path home would be closed to her.  White Harbor is the obvious next choice for her voyage home, with her own silver.  Ned di leave her with a bag of silver and a baby in his belly... it's just that neither were his.  

But TOotGH just use that idea as a stepping stone to their predetermined conclusion, kinda ruining the validity of the rest of the analysis. 

Until yesterday (I think, I'm still in March) I could've seen the Ashara thing gone in either Brandon or Ned's direction with pretty much the same odds, but @kissdbyfire read of the Harrenhall dance situation all but convinced me of a relationship with Brandon.

Does anyone think she might have had something with both?

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean w/ teleportation and time travel.  

Bran time travels through the weirwoods, and he can warg into people, so he could (maybe) warg into someone in the past and do anything.

Weren't Tyrion and company teleported right before the stone men attack? I might be missremembering.

 

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But yes, it's a fantasy so the argument often is, pretty much anything is possible. But the thing is, it isn't. 

And there are tons of stuff that haven't been officially revealed yet, and Martin likes to plant red herrings and leave things ambiguous until he's good and ready to make a reveal. But again, that doesn't mean anything is possible just because it isn't impossible. 

Yep I agree. With the Jaqen thing I almost said to the guy 'dude, look at all the things you have to excuse for this to happen, do you really think it's that certain?" but he clearly does, and the fact that everything he claimed was possible kept coming back.

 

[James West]

It is a better theory than R + L = J.  Jon is older than what Ned claimed.  The love triangle involving Ned, Ashara, and Brandon could have been interesting drama.  All that aside, I am in the camp which supports Mance Rayder as the lover of Lyanna Stark and the father of Jon Snow. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Bran time travels through the weirwoods,

What do you mean?

 

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

and he can warg skinchange into people,

FTFY. 

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

so he could (maybe) warg skinchange into someone in the past and do anything.

Maybe, but that's not time travel. 

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Weren't Tyrion and company teleported right before the stone men attack? I might be missremembering.

Yeah, I don't know what happened there. A few theories out there, some interesting, others insane. I'm not married to any, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. 

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Yep I agree. With the Jaqen thing I almost said to the guy 'dude, look at all the things you have to excuse for this to happen, do you really think it's that certain?" but he clearly does, and the fact that everything he claimed was possible kept coming back.

 

 

[CamiloRP]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What do you mean?

He talks to Ned and he seems to hear him.

 

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FTFY. 

(in the Spanish version there is no 'skinchange' term, as it would sound really clumsy, so I often mix the too, thanks)

 

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Maybe, but that's not time travel. 

Yeah, I don't know what happened there. A few theories out there, some interesting, others insane. I'm not married to any, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. 

Yeah no, I'm not taking either that or the first point as a certainty, but it could be, there is some evidence for time travel and teleporting in the series, and that's all you need for making a crackpot theory, that's my point. For example, Bran skinchanging into a faceless man from the past, glamouring (or solid changing) himself as anyone and that's all you need for anything. Any character could be anywhere at anytime with any face. So everything is actually possible.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

He talks to Ned and he seems to hear him.

 

(in the Spanish version there is no 'skinchange' term, as it would sound really clumsy, so I often mix the too, thanks)

 

Yeah no, I'm not taking either that or the first point as a certainty, but it could be, there is some evidence for time travel and teleporting in the series, and that's all you need for making a crackpot theory, that's my point. For example, Bran skinchanging into a faceless man from the past, glamouring (or solid changing) himself as anyone and that's all you need for anything. Any character could be anywhere at anytime with any face. So everything is actually possible.

Oh definitely. And Bloodraven did everything, caused everything, and skinchanged into everyone!

[CamiloRP]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh definitely. And Bloodraven did everything, caused everything, and skinchanged into everyone!

The sad thing is, if you put all the Bloodraven theories together, he kinda did! You would know tho

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The sad thing is, if you put all the Bloodraven theories together, he kinda did! You would know tho

Not sure what you mean? But I'm gonna leave it at that b/c we are totally OT and hijacking the thread.

 

[CamiloRP]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean? But I'm gonna leave it at that b/c we are totally OT and hijacking the thread.

 

That there are theories for Bloodraven doing everything, skinchanging into everyone and causing everything

[The Green Bard]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why do you think is was her?

Because she's the only character that fits, unless it was actually a fisherman's daughter, which is a pointless tangent that I don't think likely.  Can you name a better candidate?

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Does anyone think she might have had something with both?

Well, It is certainly possible that Ned had a thing for her as well, but if Brandon got there first, there would be a lot of bitterness in Ned ... and there is bitterness there.  

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She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

 

Thing is Brandon clearly did not know what to do, so was Ned thinking a few unsaid things about Brandon here?  George cleverly has this done in Cat's POV, so we really have no much to go on, but repeating his name 3 times in rapid succession to me sounds like an alternative to expletives (I imagine the word motherfucker to be in there, but it's really up to your own creativity.  All signs point to Brandon being a loaded cannon that might do anything.  Certainly he had no idea what he was doing when he entered King's Landing.

Who knows what the bitterness to Brandon means, but it might be more than sour grapes that he got stuck being Lord. Thing is, being lord prevents him from seeking his own prospects in marriage, for sure. Maybe it's very connected to your question. George was laying out the clues about Ashara in Cat's inner monologue in that same chapter (AGoT Cat II).

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Any character could be anywhere at anytime with any face. So everything is actually possible.

I know your were on the Jaqen =Aegon thing, but tyring to bing it a bit more back on topic, I think where Ashara Dayne is concerned we should expect a bit of creativity because:

A) We know so little about where she was except at Harrenhal and then that last stint at Starfall, where she supposedly dies.  In between is a completely blank page, which I assume will get filled in a bit more in Winds, but never completely.

B) George actually encourages this by telling us that she wasn't nailed to the floor.  It invites speculation.

Some of that speculation will be wrong in the end, but I don't see that it makes this fandom any better to completely snuff out unlikely ideas just because they are unlikely.  

2 hours ago, James West said:

It is a better theory than R + L = J.  Jon is older than what Ned claimed.  The love triangle involving Ned, Ashara, and Brandon could have been interesting drama.  All that aside, I am in the camp which supports Mance Rayder as the lover of Lyanna Stark and the father of Jon Snow. 

Well, I think we need to be realistic. B+A=J is proven false by George's blog posts.  At this point, it is inherently not a better theory than R+L=J.  Definitely a love triangle is in GRRM's wheelhouse.  That doesn't mean that there aren't problems with the write-ups of R+L=J.  I still want to know what Ned's "broken promises are, for instance.  If R+L=J, my interpretation would be that he kept his promises, but this is a pretty small weakness given the rest of the stuff that checks out in the theory.  

Are you suggesting that Mance = Arthur (which I am fond of), and thus A+L=J?  I suppose he is the only other person (save for Whent) who had an opportunity to be the father, but there is very little to make that a better theory than R+L=J.  TBH, I think B+A=J a much better theory than A+L=J.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Because she's the only character that fits, unless it was actually a fisherman's daughter, which is a pointless tangent that I don't think likely.  Can you name a better candidate?

Nope, I can't, I haven't spared much thoughts to the fisherman's daughter, I just wanted to see if you had any points I might have missed. She could be Ashara, then again she could also be some fisherman's daughter who just happened to be there and GRRM jsut added her as a red herriing.

 

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Well, It is certainly possible that Ned had a thing for her as well, but if Brandon got there first, there would be a lot of bitterness in Ned ... and there is bitterness there.  

Thing is Brandon clearly did not know what to do, so was Ned thinking a few unsaid things about Brandon here?  George cleverly has this done in Cat's POV, so we really have no much to go on, but repeating his name 3 times in rapid succession to me sounds like an alternative to expletives (I imagine the word motherfucker to be in there, but it's really up to your own creativity.  All signs point to Brandon being a loaded cannon that might do anything.  Certainly he had no idea what he was doing when he entered King's Landing.

Who knows what the bitterness to Brandon means, but it might be more than sour grapes that he got stuck being Lord. Thing is, being lord prevents him from seeking his own prospects in marriage, for sure. Maybe it's very connected to your question. George was laying out the clues about Ashara in Cat's inner monologue in that same chapter (AGoT Cat II).

I actually really like this observations, and the bold part actually made me laugh. George does love his love triangles.

 

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I know your were on the Jaqen =Aegon thing, but tyring to bing it a bit more back on topic, I think where Ashara Dayne is concerned we should expect a bit of creativity because:

A) We know so little about where she was except at Harrenhal and then that last stint at Starfall, where she supposedly dies.  In between is a completely blank page, which I assume will get filled in a bit more in Winds, but never completely.

George actually encourages this by telling us that she wasn't nailed to the floor.  It invites speculation.

Some of that speculation will be wrong in the end, but I don't see that it makes this fandom any better to completely snuff out unlikely ideas just because they are unlikely.  

Oh no, I agree, I love weird theories. What I don't like is acting like they are the absolute truth with little to no evidence, that's wa=hat that part was about. And some parts of the story are almost impossible to analyze without getting weird.

 

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Well, I think we need to be realistic. B+A=J is proven false by George's blog posts.  At this point, it is inherently not a better theory than R+L=J.  Definitely a love triangle is in GRRM's wheelhouse.  That doesn't mean that there aren't problems with the write-ups of R+L=J.  I still want to know what Ned's "broken promises are, for instance.  If R+L=J, my interpretation would be that he kept his promises, but this is a pretty small weakness given the rest of the stuff that checks out in the theory.  

Yes! that bugs me as well. Some people claim is tied to Dany's death, and that's the most likely explanation for me, but I still don't know how without getting into complete crackpot. (I do think there's some evidence for R+L=D, but I don't think it's very likely)

 

[corbon]

2 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Because she's the only character that fits, unless it was actually a fisherman's daughter, which is a pointless tangent that I don't think likely.  Can you name a better candidate?

Not even a tangent. Its merely a verisimilitude enhancing 'local' story about big events that muddies the waters a bit. Rather realistic, not actual relevant to anything in itself.

Not sure I'm getting my point across clearly. IMO it doesn't need to be a 'thing', which is what you imply it should be. 

2 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

That doesn't mean that there aren't problems with the write-ups of R+L=J.  I still want to know what Ned's "broken promises are, for instance.  If R+L=J, my interpretation would be that he kept his promises, but this is a pretty small weakness given the rest of the stuff that checks out in the theory.  

His 'broken promises' are not related to Lyanna. He did keep those promises.

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"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them

His dreams of blood and broken promises come when he lies wounded and feverish in the black cells, after Cersei has seized power for Joffrey.

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When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

By this time Ned is broken and powerless. He now has has many broken promises (and blood aplenty, Jory's, his own, his men's, potentially his whole family's etc.) Promises to Cat, that it would not come to war. To Robert, that he would protect Robert's heirs etc. To Jon, that he would tell him about his mother. Probably others I can't recall too.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yeah no, I'm not taking either that or the first point as a certainty, but it could be, there is some evidence for time travel and teleporting in the series, and that's all you need for making a crackpot theory, that's my point. For example, Bran skinchanging into a faceless man from the past, glamouring (or solid changing) himself as anyone and that's all you need for anything. Any character could be anywhere at anytime with any face. So everything is actually possible.

Jesus R. R. Christ! This sounds like sour grapes to me.  Some evidence?  I never said Bran skinchanged into a faceless man.  I'm going to put this down to a language and comprehension problem.  If you want to attack me, ovary up or get your balls out of your purse.   

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jesus R. R. Christ! This sounds like sour grapes to me.  Some evidence?  I never said Bran skinchanged into a faceless man.  I'm going to put this down to a language and comprehension problem.  If you want to attack me, ovary up or get your balls out of your purse.   

I wasn't talking about you, I'm sorry if you got that. I wasn't talking about anyone really. I was just talking about how the 'it's possible' argument is weird in a series in which, if you try hard enough you can make anything possible

[The Green Bard]

16 hours ago, corbon said:

His 'broken promises' are not related to Lyanna. He did keep those promises.

I am never going to buy an argument that the broken promises he dreamed of were completely unrelated to Lyanna.  Yes, I am well aware of his promise to Barra.  He also promised Cat it wouldn't come to war, and he promised Robert that he'd eat the boar.  None of those promises come up again.  There is also certainly Littlefinger's promise to keep Ned safe, which Ned certainly would consider to be broken, though I'd imagine Littlefinger would say he tried to keep it but Ned wouldn't listen to reason.  However, "Promise me, Ned" comes up eight times in his inner monologue throughout the book.  He felt he'd broken something about those promises; I believe we as a fandom just still haven't figured out what yet. 

Further, in that same chapter he thinks this:

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The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. "Is this your own scheme," he gasped out at Varys, "or are you in league with Littlefinger?"

I would say that something in that sorrow and/or those unsaid words is also related to this. The proximity in the text certainly makes it relevant.

[The Green Bard]

17 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes! that bugs me as well. Some people claim is tied to Dany's death, and that's the most likely explanation for me, but I still don't know how without getting into complete crackpot. (I do think there's some evidence for R+L=D, but I don't think it's very likely)

Yes, certainly Lyanna could have asked him to protect Rhaegar's remaining family from Robert, not to just protect Jon.  This is reasonable.  While some have argued that it means she was Lyanna's daughter, this promise fits better what we know to be true.  I would like clarity from the author on this.  I'd have to say that Ashara and Howland could give us a bit of exposition as the story progresses and I hold out hope for that.  Obviously Bran might as well, I suppose.

I have my own tinfoil about Dany, lemongate, Dorne, etc. that doesn't require R+L=D.  With Lyanna proven to be Jon's mom, R+L=D is not viable either given the SSM about their ages, but that doesn't mean that Dany did not spend a fair bit of time in Dorne, separate from Viserys, when she was a toddler.  I mean Sam and Myrcella make trips to the Bravoosi coastline, then continue south to Dorne...  with Myrcella it was for the specific reason of separating the heirs, which is exactly why a person who'd promised to protect them would do (like Luwin with Bran and Rickon). It really makes me want to know who the "four loyal men" were that helped Darry in the evacuation.  I know who I want them to be, but that doesn't make it so....

18 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Oh no, I agree, I love weird theories. What I don't like is acting like they are the absolute truth with little to no evidence, that's wa=hat that part was about. And some parts of the story are almost impossible to analyze without getting weird.

Yes, I agree with your approach here.  To take it as fact and build upon something makes it a house of cards.  But to come up with an idea and test it, with full understanding that it is a stretch... that's just imagination.  When the author leaves things to our imagination, this makes it fun.  It's why I am in this thread actually... with working on my own content, I don't have the time to explore every thread like I used to.  

18 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Nope, I can't, I haven't spared much thoughts to the fisherman's daughter, I just wanted to see if you had any points I might have missed. She could be Ashara, then again she could also be some fisherman's daughter who just happened to be there and GRRM just added her as a red herring.

A complete red herring doesn't feel like his style.  I think his stuff is mostly tied together, especially the later books, which is why it takes him so long to write them.  I wish I had more to go on, but my conjecture, mostly based upon the SSM that she wasn't nailed to the floor, is that she took it upon herself to deliver messages in the hopes of making peace. Also, her actions at Harrenhal could be suggestive that she was passing messages along to her dance partners.  I can easily see her being in KL, seeing the mess Rhaegar and Brandon created (two men she might have romantic feelings for and may have spoken to and gotten the messages from), and taking it upon herself to go to Ned and Robert in the Vale to try to de-escalate.  Like I've said before, if that was her aim, she must have arrived too late.

I also love the idea (my own idea, I think) that she was the person Rhaegar was looking at in Dany's HotUD vision where he says:

Quote

"There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. 

Of course, next to Lyanna, Ashara with her Dayne genes (think Dyanna Dayne, Egg's mom), would be a great candidate to bear such a child, but couldn't do so if she were already pregnant.

18 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I actually really like this observations, and the bold part actually made me laugh. George does love his love triangles.

Thx!  Yeah,  I've had those thoughts for a while.  

[CamiloRP]

7 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Yes, certainly Lyanna could have asked him to protect Rhaegar's remaining family from Robert, not to just protect Jon.  This is reasonable.  While some have argued that it means she was Lyanna's daughter, this promise fits better what we know to be true.  I would like clarity from the author on this.  I'd have to say that Ashara and Howland could give us a bit of exposition as the story progresses and I hold out hope for that.  Obviously Bran might as well, I suppose.

That's an interesting possibility

 

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I have my own tinfoil about Dany, lemongate, Dorne, etc. that doesn't require R+L=D.  With Lyanna proven to be Jon's mom, R+L=D is not viable either given the SSM about their ages, but that doesn't mean that Dany did not spend a fair bit of time in Dorne, separate from Viserys, when she was a toddler.  I mean Sam and Myrcella make trips to the Bravoosi coastline, then continue south to Dorne...  with Myrcella it was for the specific reason of separating the heirs, which is exactly why a person who'd promised to protect them would do (like Luwin with Bran and Rickon). It really makes me want to know who the "four loyal men" were that helped Darry in the evacuation.  I know who I want them to be, but that doesn't make it so....

Hey, my first argument here was about (in favor of) lemongate, you have my axe

 

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A complete red herring doesn't feel like his style.  I think his stuff is mostly tied together, especially the later books, which is why it takes him so long to write them.  I wish I had more to go on, but my conjecture, mostly based upon the SSM that she wasn't nailed to the floor, is that she took it upon herself to deliver messages in the hopes of making peace. Also, her actions at Harrenhal could be suggestive that she was passing messages along to her dance partners.  I can easily see her being in KL, seeing the mess Rhaegar and Brandon created (two men she might have romantic feelings for and may have spoken to and gotten the messages from), and taking it upon herself to go to Ned and Robert in the Vale to try to de-escalate.  Like I've said before, if that was her aim, she must have arrived too late.

But there hasn't been much attention placed on the fisherman's daughter, she was mentioned once, by a non-POV character to a character that didn't even know Ned or Ashara, there isn't much importance placed on her, so her being no one of importance wouldn't be an issue. I can't imagine any (reasonable) fan finishing the series and after the fisherman's daughter is never mentioned again feeling scammed or something, of course this could change in future books.

[The Green Bard]

38 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I can't imagine any (reasonable) fan finishing the series and after the fisherman's daughter is never mentioned again feeling scammed or something, of course this could change in future books.

I'll grant only that he can't possibly tie up every loose end, though not that he didn't have a bit more of that story in his head when writing Dance.  If unfinished, it would be, IMHO, that he just didn't have another opportunity to finish the thread later due to where the story flowed.  

[corbon]

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

I am never going to buy an argument that the broken promises he dreamed of were completely unrelated to Lyanna. 

Well, if you aren't gonna take Ned's word for it, then thats up to you. He literally thinks earlier about how he kept his promises (to Lyanna) and the price it cost him.

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

Yes, I am well aware of his promise to Barra.  He also promised Cat it wouldn't come to war, and he promised Robert that he'd eat the boar.  None of those promises come up again.  There is also certainly Littlefinger's promise to keep Ned safe, which Ned certainly would consider to be broken, though I'd imagine Littlefinger would say he tried to keep it but Ned wouldn't listen to reason. 

Haha, agreed. Barra was the other one I was knew I was missing. 
But for me its a whole collective failure on Ned's part, in the current timeline. He's literally broken, in the black cells, with the Lannisters in full control of the reins (and legal appearances) of power. Of course he's got lots of broken promises and blood on his subconscious. 

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

However, "Promise me, Ned" comes up eight times in his inner monologue throughout the book.  He felt he'd broken something about those promises; 

He explicitly thought otherwise. I've already given you the quote.

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

However, "Promise me, Ned" comes up eight times in his inner monologue throughout the book.  He felt he'd broken something about those promises;

Every one of those times he thinks about Lyanna and not a single one of those times does he think about his failures, or having broken those promises. Just sadness, because he paid a heavy price to keep them.

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

Further, in that same chapter he thinks this:

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. "Is this your own scheme," he gasped out at Varys, "or are you in league with Littlefinger?"

I would say that something in that sorrow and/or those unsaid words is also related to this. The proximity in the text certainly makes it relevant.

Exactly. His promise to Jon is one of the broken ones. He promised him he'd talk with him about his mother. He really has made a mess of Jon's life  and now Jon will never know why.

[The Green Bard]

8 minutes ago, corbon said:

He literally thinks earlier about how he kept his promises (to Lyanna) and the price it cost him.

That was 6 chapter's earlier.  A lot can change ... no ... a lot did change in the ensuing chapters.