Was Rhaegar becoming another Mad King?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So everyone we know calls Rhaegar charming, fair and just. But here's the thing, from what we know of Aerys, he started out as a pretty swell King. His jealousy and narcissism did sour him a little, while the pregnancies put a strain on him, before finally breaking with Duskendale. So the question is, could Rhaegar have gone the way of his father? I mean call me crazy, but a man that runs away with Lyanna Stark without giving 2 shits about the fairly obvious clusterfuck that would create doesn't strike me as the most stable person, especially given the obsession with prophecy.

[ShimShim]

I think its possible, but I think his madness would be caused not by a similar personality to his father, and more his obsession with prophecy. I mean what else would you call running off with Lyanna but an act of madness. We all know what they say about prophecy, "Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." I think that pretty much accurately describes Rhaegars situation. He was so high on his belief that getting Lyanna with child would fulfill the prophecy, so sure it would all work out, until everything came crashing down. The question I think would be is if, Rhaegar did win, would he still be going mad because of his belief in this prophecy, or would he believe that he already did what he needed to do/it was fulfilled so he would start thinking straight again.    

[Daeron the Daring]

55 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So everyone we know calls Rhaegar charming, fair and just. But here's the thing, from what we know of Aerys, he started out as a pretty swell King. His jealousy and narcissism did sour him a little, while the pregnancies put a strain on him, before finally breaking with Duskendale. So the question is, could Rhaegar have gone the way of his father? I mean call me crazy, but a man that runs away with Lyanna Stark without giving 2 shits about the fairly obvious clusterfuck that would create doesn't strike me as the most stable person, especially given the obsession with prophecy.

No. Aerys was nothing like Rhaegar. Aerys was ambitious, but weak too. He seemed to run after fairytales, and easily lost interest in anything. And of course he wasn't talented in anything.

[kissdbyfire]

Aerys was vain and fickle from the start, even if his worst traits didn’t become obvious until later. We have no indication that Rhaegar was anything like his father; in fact, what we do have points in the opposite direction. Also, we don’t know what happened between Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, etc. We have only a small amount of speculation and head canon from some characters, like Robert. So, I don’t think it’s fair to pass judgement on Rhaegar just yet, when there’s so little information.

[The Commentator]

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So everyone we know calls Rhaegar charming, fair and just. But here's the thing, from what we know of Aerys, he started out as a pretty swell King. His jealousy and narcissism did sour him a little, while the pregnancies put a strain on him, before finally breaking with Duskendale. So the question is, could Rhaegar have gone the way of his father? I mean call me crazy, but a man that runs away with Lyanna Stark without giving 2 shits about the fairly obvious clusterfuck that would create doesn't strike me as the most stable person, especially given the obsession with prophecy.

A lord commander of the Watch who would start a war with the Boltons during a critical time for human survival just to get his sister away from her husband is equally as foolish as Rhaegar.  Lyanna was just as foolish.  Running off and risking war just to avoid doing something she doesn't like is not only foolish but selfish.  She knew how her brother and father would react. 

[James Steller]

17 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

A lord commander of the Watch who would start a war with the Boltons during a critical time for human survival just to get his sister away from her husband is equally as foolish as Rhaegar.  Lyanna was just as foolish.  Running off and risking war just to avoid doing something she doesn't like is not only foolish but selfish.  She knew how her brother and father would react. 

That’s the biggest case for Jon’s parentage being Lyanna and Rhaegar, as far as I’m concerned. 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

A lord commander of the Watch who would start a war with the Boltons during a critical time for human survival just to get his sister away from her husband is equally as foolish as Rhaegar.  Lyanna was just as foolish.  Running off and risking war just to avoid doing something she doesn't like is not only foolish but selfish.  She knew how her brother and father would react. 

What's that got to do w/ Rhaegar taking after his daddy or not?

[Castellan]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What's that got to do w/ Rhaegar taking after his daddy or not?

I think the point is that it could be seen as a human failing where emotion overrides strategy, rather than a sign of Targ madness.

It seems like the tourney at Harrenhall was putting together an alliance prepared to put Aerys aside and make Rhaegar King, and Rhaegar also had it in mind to take a second wife to fulfil prophecy. Aerys showing up at Harrenhal, and Jaime joining the Kingsguard, would have ended the chances of that especially if it was essential to recruit Tywin to that cause, as Aerys now Jaime hostage. With his hopes raised then defeated, Rhaegar went for the one part he had achieved - conceiving another child, and took Lyanna away.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Rhaegar changed his entire life because of something he read on Facebook. Like some crazy people I know.

[broken one]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What's that got to do w/ Rhaegar taking after his daddy or not?

""Furthermore, I consider that Jon Snow must be destroyed""

[Alyn Oakenfist]

16 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

A lord commander of the Watch who would start a war with the Boltons during a critical time for human survival just to get his sister away from her husband is equally as foolish as Rhaegar.  Lyanna was just as foolish.  Running off and risking war just to avoid doing something she doesn't like is not only foolish but selfish.  She knew how her brother and father would react. 

Alright, let's do this one last time

 

 

The reason Jon wanted to march on Ramsay, was not only because he wanted to save his sister, thought let's face it it was a factor, I mean how could it not be, but mainly because Ramsay actively threatened to march on the Wall

Quote

Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Now the veridicity of Ramsay's letter is questionable, but Jon's reaction came as an attempt to defend the Watch and end a threat to it.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

36 minutes ago, broken one said:

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What's that got to do w/ Rhaegar taking after his daddy or not?

""Furthermore, I consider that Jon Snow must be destroyed""

Eh, still better then the Stannis haters

[TedBear]

If we were to consider people who believe prophecies to be mad, these books would be a madhouse

[Nathan Stark]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Eh, still better then the Stannis haters

All those who deny their true King are my foes!

[Mad King Bolton]

I don't think Rhaegar was mad in the slightest.  I think he was one of the most thoughtful and so his actions were not foolish, but necessary in his mind.  Just because he lost to Robert doesn't mean he was wrong and the prophecy as he understood it hasn't happened exactly as it should have. In this particular world, it's not like reading it on Facebook, it's a world where magic is real and so he took action on what he believed was real and as far as the story seems to go, was correct.  If Rhaegar read a prophecy that said you need to have 3 children to save the world from ice zombies, not because the first two will have any role to play at all, but because your third child will be the one to either save it or help save it, then you make sure you have the third child. If it's through getting it on with a child of ice (a Stark) then you bone a Stark.  

So no, I don't think Rhaegar as anything like the Mad King. He grew up right and played his part in saving the world by doing what he had to do. He's a tragic character that I hope gets further fleshed out in the books to come, but as he is, was one of the good Targaryen's. 

Let's not forget that good and evil are often perspectives (lessons learned from Jaime and quite a few others).

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, TedBear said:

If we were to consider people who believe prophecies to be mad, these books would be a madhouse

Rhaegar didn't just believe in it. He became a fanatic in his ideology, like Stannis and Meli with the Red Rahloo/AAR bullshit. OP calls Rhaegar 'mad' for that if im correct.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 10/29/2020 at 3:52 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So everyone we know calls Rhaegar charming, fair and just. But here's the thing, from what we know of Aerys, he started out as a pretty swell King. His jealousy and narcissism did sour him a little, while the pregnancies put a strain on him, before finally breaking with Duskendale. So the question is, could Rhaegar have gone the way of his father? I mean call me crazy, but a man that runs away with Lyanna Stark without giving 2 shits about the fairly obvious clusterfuck that would create doesn't strike me as the most stable person, especially given the obsession with prophecy.

We have no idea how or why King Aerys went mad.  We might get an expose from Marwyn that the maesters were slowly poisoning him.  Simple PTSD from his experience at Duskendale didn't help.  Rhaegar would have been completely lucid if he was only obeying an order from his king-father to kidnap Lyanna.  The wolf girl was the key to a very dangerous conspiracy to topple the Targaryen dynasty.  

[SFDanny]

On 10/29/2020 at 1:31 AM, ShimShim said:

I think its possible, but I think his madness would be caused not by a similar personality to his father, and more his obsession with prophecy. I mean what else would you call running off with Lyanna but an act of madness. We all know what they say about prophecy, "Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." I think that pretty much accurately describes Rhaegars situation. He was so high on his belief that getting Lyanna with child would fulfill the prophecy, so sure it would all work out, until everything came crashing down. The question I think would be is if, Rhaegar did win, would he still be going mad because of his belief in this prophecy, or would he believe that he already did what he needed to do/it was fulfilled so he would start thinking straight again.    

To the first bolded part, I would not call it madness. Unless you call love a form of madness. Rather I would call it desperation with little in the way of options available. I would say the same about Lyanna. She wants out of an arranged marriage for her father's political schemes and has no allies for her future outside what looks like to be her little brother. Along comes the Crown Prince who is willing to help her escape her fate. They both have their fathers against them, and running off together and hiding is the only way they can see a future that doesn't just mean following their fathers's wishes. I don't think that is madness. It is a clear eyed view of the options open to them.

To the second bolded part, I think you are mistaken. Rhaegar thinks Aegon is the Prince who was promised, not a future child of Lyanna's. While Rhaegar believes he needs another child, because the dragon has three heads, he is not looking for a child with Lyanna as the heir to the throne or as the promised prince. What the role Rhaegar thought Rhaenys and Jon would play is very unclear. It is even unclear whether he thought he would have a son or a daughter with Lyanna.

In fact, we don't even know if Rhaegar leaves Lyanna knowing she is pregnant. I would say Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna is much less about a future child, and much, much more about finding real love in a life in which he has so little.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/30/2020 at 2:50 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The reason Jon wanted to march on Ramsay, was not only because he wanted to save his sister, thought let's face it it was a factor, I mean how could it not be, but mainly because Ramsay actively threatened to march on the Wall

 

Here's the Pink Letter, my lord: 

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

Sorry for the double post. Anyway, he says he'd march on the Wall if Jon didn't comply with his demands, which seems to be the norm in Westeros. Also, Ramsay is always going to be Ramsay, but you'd have to be D&D to think that Roose or the northern lords would even allow one man to walk out the front gates.