BlackLightning Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 On 2/15/2021 at 9:32 AM, SeanF said: People you sympathise with can come into conflict with each other, without either one of them being Hitler. Sadly, that's a foreign concept to most people these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 No. Vengeance begets vengeance. And for what? It doesn't bring the dead back. It doesn't fill the hole left by those who have been lost. It only puts everyone else you love in danger. Oberyn wouldn't have died if he and Doran hadn't been so obsessed with vengeance. Arya doesn't feel any less grief for Ned just because she hears of Joffrey's death. Killing all the Freys won't fix Lady Stoneheart. And Dany didn't even know her parents, and her vile brother abused her. Why would seeking vengeance mean anything to her? What did crucifying the Masters for their own vile acts do for Dany, other than make her feel sick? Why would murdering entire Houses filled with people Dany doesn't know right the wrongs done to relatives that she also doesn't know? It wouldn't. It would just make Dany a whole lot of enemies, and make her feel sick to her stomach again. Vengeance is never justified, and so many of the pov characters learn this the hard way in these books. There is a fine line between justice and revenge, of course. But ultimately, justice is the thing these people deserve, not revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Aerys ordered Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon's deaths so Daenerys' logic fails. Ned Stark's descendants would be justified if they want to fight or kill her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: No. Vengeance begets vengeance. And for what? It doesn't bring the dead back. It doesn't fill the hole left by those who have been lost. It only puts everyone else you love in danger. Oberyn wouldn't have died if he and Doran hadn't been so obsessed with vengeance. Arya doesn't feel any less grief for Ned just because she hears of Joffrey's death. Killing all the Freys won't fix Lady Stoneheart. And Dany didn't even know her parents, and her vile brother abused her. Why would seeking vengeance mean anything to her? What did crucifying the Masters for their own vile acts do for Dany, other than make her feel sick? Why would murdering entire Houses filled with people Dany doesn't know right the wrongs done to relatives that she also doesn't know? It wouldn't. It would just make Dany a whole lot of enemies, and make her feel sick to her stomach again. Vengeance is never justified, and so many of the pov characters learn this the hard way in these books. There is a fine line between justice and revenge, of course. But ultimately, justice is the thing these people deserve, not revenge. This and also,the fact that she didn't know her parents does not mean she can't feel angry and sad at the fact that she has been deprived of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 2 hours ago, saltedmalted said: Aerys ordered Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon's deaths so Daenerys' logic fails. Ned Stark's descendants would be justified if they want to fight or kill her. What has Daenerys done to the children of Ned Stark? The rebels were indeed entitled to fight against Aerys, and Rhaegar, once he chose to fight for his father. But, the rest of the royal family were not really legitimate targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 19 minutes ago, SeanF said: What has Daenerys done to the children of Ned Stark? I guess he speculates about possible future, in which she does a thing or two to them (the wiping out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 18 minutes ago, SeanF said: What has Daenerys done to the children of Ned Stark? She does not even think of them. She thinks of Robert and his "dogs" meaning : cold eyes,frozen heart Ned Stark (as she sees him),Tywin,Jamie,Jon Arryn and probably Gregor (if she knows who killed Elia and her children).When she hears that Robert died and Joffrey was in his place she tought how great it would be if she could just give him gold to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Found the quote I was talking about. Quote "[...]They know that if they feast the horselords and give them gifts, they will soon ride on. It's cheaper than fighting, and a deal more certain." Cheaper than fighting, Dany thought. Yes, it might be. If only it could be that easy for her. How pleasant it would be to sail to King's Landing with her dragons, and pay the boy Joffrey a chest of gold to make him go away.[...] "A Storm of Swords" - Chapter 23 , Daenerys II And about the usurper's dogs,here is a quote that she does not think of the Lannister and Stark children,but the lords : Quote [...]The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.[...] "A Game of Thrones" - Chapter 3 , Daenerys I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said: Found the quote I was talking about. And about the usurper's dogs,here is a quote that she does not think of the Lannister and Stark children,but the lords : Yes, I've never had the impression that Daenerys wants to target the children of her enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: Yes, I've never had the impression that Daenerys wants to target the children of her enemies. Children grow old. Does she expect to waltz in to Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Children grow old. Does she expect to waltz in to Westeros? I doubt it. The question is how committed will adult children be to Cersei, fAegon, et al? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Children grow old. Does she expect to waltz in to Westeros? No,but people often seem to forget this about her : Quote [...]"When Aegon the Dragon stepped ashore in Westeros, the kings of Vale and Rock and Reach did not rush to hand him their crowns. If you mean to sit his Iron Throne, you must win it as he did, with steel and dragonfire. And that will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done." Blood and fire, thought Dany. The words of House Targaryen. She had known them all her life. "The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of innocents is another matter. Eight thousand Unsullied they would offer me. Eight thousand dead babes. Eight thousand strangled dogs."[...] "A Storm os Swords" - Chapter 23 , Daenerys II And what made her take Astapor : "Eight thousand Unsullied they would offer me. Eight thousand dead babes. Eight thousand strangled dogs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 47 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Children grow old. Does she expect to waltz in to Westeros? If any of them are in a position of power and oppose her than yes they are fair game. If they don't oppose her than Dany has no reason to go after them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 4 hours ago, El Guapo said: If any of them are in a position of power and oppose her than yes they are fair game. If they don't oppose her than Dany has no reason to go after them at all. 10 year old Dickon gonna get very crispy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: 10 year old Dickon gonna get very crispy Why?Do you think a 10 year boy will march an army against her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracul's Daughter Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 @Rose of Red Lake (about your comment) I know!!!I think I know why!!! It's because : "They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated,that she mates with men,women,eunuchs,even dogs and children,and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her.She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall." Am I correct?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 13 hours ago, saltedmalted said: Aerys ordered Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon's deaths so Daenerys' logic fails. Ned Stark's descendants would be justified if they want to fight or kill her. Even Ned Stark doesn't accept that logic, and he has more reason to than most. He was royally pissed at Robert for accepting the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon and chose to resign as Hand rather than be a part of Dany's murder. And none of his children have any particular bone to pick with Dany. They certainly would not be justified in killing her over what Aerys did to their family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 10/31/2020 at 2:32 AM, Mario Seddy said: Is daenerys justified in seeking revenge against houses Lannister/ Baratheon for how brutally they killed her good sister, niece and nephew. And how they would've killed any targaryen they could have got their hands on? She would be totally justified in taking back the seven kingdoms. She has that right just as the Starks have a right to attempt to take back Winterfell. She will obviously need to get rid of the Lannisters and the Baratheons who would resist. That's part of reclaiming back the iron throne. Robert and the Baratheons would have slaughtered every Targaryen they could find in the past because they were a threat to their rule. Daenerys would be justified in killing every Lannister and Baratheon who are threats to her goals. It's how the game of thrones is played. It's not like killing Lannisters and Baratheons would be killing good people. Shireen is the exception. But look here, Tywin's henchmen did not make that moral distinction when they killed Elia and the children. But I believe Daenerys will be very discriminate in who she chooses to execute. I know it's a thing with Martin to have gray characters and she will be gray. Even the dragon-riding heroine of this epic story will be gray. But I don't think she will harm Shireen. I also believe Shireen will be smart enough so that in time, she will see that Daenerys had to execute her dad and accept it. It's how leaders get fired in Westeros. By execution or death on the battlefield. It's what her dad would have done to Daenerys if he could and it's what Uncle Robert tried to do when he sent his assassin. I am in Dany's corner, no secret there, and I will support her decision when she executes Stannis and Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Even Ned Stark doesn't accept that logic, and he has more reason to than most. He was royally pissed at Robert for accepting the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon and chose to resign as Hand rather than be a part of Dany's murder. And none of his children have any particular bone to pick with Dany. They certainly would not be justified in killing her over what Aerys did to their family. There are ways in which Dany, Jon Snow, Sansa could come into conflict. If Sansa’s in power in the Vale, she might support fAegon and Arianne against the Tyrells and Lannisters who wronged her family. That would place her at odds with Dany, upon her return. Jon might want a separate kingdom in the North, or even press his own claim to the Iron Throne, in opposition to Dany. Plainly, the loser of such a conflict would be at risk of death in battle, or subsequent execution. But that’s quite a different matter to just carrying on a blood feud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: And none of his children have any particular bone to pick with Dany. But she has a bone to pick with them. 11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: They certainly would not be justified in killing her over what Aerys did to their family. Daenerys will come looking for trouble. 11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: Even Ned Stark doesn't accept that logic, and he has more reason to than most. Ned opposed the killing of defenceless children, not invaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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