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Is Daenerys justified in wiping out House Lannister/Baratheon since they tried to do the same to House Targaryen?


Mario Seddy
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14 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Please refrain from using personal attacks. Thank you.

 

She did. In Astapor she ordered the death of highborn children over the age of 12 and I am not going to even mention the torture or wine seller's young daughters for their father to give her the information she needs.

"harm no child over 12 " does not mean "kill everyone over 11".I'm sure the Unsullied were clever enough to understand that she simply commanded children not to be harmed elsewise they would still be in Astapor figuring out everyone's age.
Her allowing Shapevate to do as he considers in order to obtain information form the winseller was because he and his daughters (we don't know their age) were the only suspects and more important the deaths that occured that night.

"How many dead?"

Reznak wrung his hands. "N-nine, Magnificence. Foul work it was, and wicked. A dreadful night, dreadful."
Nine. The word was a dagger in her heart. Every night the shadow war was waged anew beneath the stepped pyramids of Meereen. Every morn the sun rose upon fresh corpses, with harpies drawn in blood on the bricks beside them. Any freedman who became too prosperous or too outspoken was marked for death. Nine in one night, though ... That frightened her.

"Tell me."

Grey Worm answered. "Your servants were set upon as they walked the bricks of Meereen to keep Your Grace's peace. All were well armed, with spears and shields and short swords. Two by two they walked, and two by two they died. Your servants Black Fist and Cetherys were slain by cross-bow bolts in Mazdhan's Maze. Your servants Mossador and Duran were crushed by falling stones beneath the river wall. Your servants Eladon Goldenhair and Loyal Spear were poisoned at a wineshop where they were accustomed to stop each night upon their rounds."

Mossador. Dany made a fist. Missandei and her brothers had been taken from their home on Naath by raiders from the Basilisk Isles and sold into slavery in Astapor. Young as she was, Missandei had shown such a gift for tongues that the Good Masters had made a scribe of her. Mossador and Marselen had not been so fortunate. They had been gelded and made into Unsullied. "Have any of the murderers been captured?"

"Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy."


Specially this one

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. "Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question."

"It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?"

"Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this." She hesitated. "Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?"

"Three freedmen, murdered in their homes," the Shavepate said.

"A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her."

The queen flinched.
Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany's councils. "We have no captives but this wineseller?"

"None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon."
 

Edited by Oana_Mika
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15 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

oh, I agree with you fully, by their standards, Dany, Ned, hell, even Robert are pretty great guys, but given the question (if the Starks should give their land back to the COTF) I decided to answer based on my opinion rather than the story, as that question, I think, goes above the story. I do hope for Dany to realize conquering Westeros wont be a good thing to do, since she conquered Slaver's Bay without having any sense of a claim to it, and she's by far the best ruler the region ever had, and I think these themes are part of the story, so not just my personal opinion.

They're all entirely legitimate issues to raise, and they are being raised deliberately by the author.

Robb Stark is one of the most decent and honourable leaders in the tale - by the lights of his world.  But, both his war aims, and his methods would be very questionable by our standards.

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Hey, you are the one who asked a question who had nothing to do with anything completely out of nowhere.

Some of those questions are posed by the story tho. Ygritte talks to Jon about how the land is everyone's land, that Westerosi just stole it by putting a Wall in the middle of it, and the solution we are reaching with the Freefolk? they are allowed in, but the people who stole their lands aren't kicked out, kind of exactly what I said, no?

The story also questions the morality of war for war's sake, we see how terrible war is for people, how people suffer and die in war, yet some wars are remembered better than others, Robert's Rebellion, for exampled, is looked upon more kindly than, let's say, the Dance of the Dragons, that is because Robert's cause was a just one, ending the rule of a tyrant, and the Dance was just about twats wanting to rule because they felt entitled to it, the WOT5K is similar to the Dance, and thus is looked down upon very poorly. Dany has no claim to Mereen, yet she battled, took it, and now is the best ruler Mereen ever had, her war is more than justified. But wanting to bring destruction to Westeros just based on her blood, isn't good or just, and the story poses this, I think Dany will come to that realization tho, she clearly cares for the people, and bringing more war to Westeros won't do any good.

I simply asked a question based on answers I saw from you.That was not out of nowhere and I agree with your answer.I never said that The Northeners should leave and leave the North to the Children of the Forest.I made a tongue in cheek question because everyone seems to condemn Dany fighting for her birthright and believing in such thing when everyone does exactly the same.

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10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In any event, this was a fight situation.  There were teenage soldiers and overseers at Astapor.  No one would be sparing the lives of Robb Stark, or Jon Snow, or Joffrey, or Podrick Payne in a fight, just because they were teenagers. Martin is simply adopting the medieval convention that young teenagers be treated as adults.  They serve in armies, can get married etc.

As an aside, I've always been struck by the way in which  teenagers who are slavers, overseers, and soldiers attract so much more sympathy from Dany's detractors than the thousands of teenage Unsullied or pre-teen "uncut boys" who were liberated.

And she also had boys that had not finished their training.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They're all entirely legitimate issues to raise, and they are being raised deliberately by the author.

Robb Stark is one of the most decent and honourable leaders in the tale - by the lights of his world.  But, both his war aims, and his methods would be very questionable by our standards.

yeah, absolutely, tho I think that part fo what Martin tries to question is the glorification of medieval times, and in that sense, something that is wrong now, was equally wrong then. 

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Just now, CamiloRP said:

yeah, absolutely, tho I think that part fo what Martin tries to question is the glorification of medieval times, and in that sense, something that is wrong now, was equally wrong then. 

I doubt that at the end Westeros will change much.Martin said it's absolute monarchy there so the best thing I hope is that at least there will be a ruler who will finally reform things for the small folk,giving them protection and support.

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3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I simply asked a question based on answers I saw from you.That was not out of nowhere and I agree with your answer.I never said that The Northeners should leave and leave the North to the Children of the Forest.I made a tongue in cheek question because everyone seems to condemn Dany fighting for her birthright and believing in such thing when everyone does exactly the same.

The thing is that the Starks living in the North thousands of years after it was taken from the COTF is not the same as, or even similar to, Dany bringing war to Westeros to take her 'birthright', that's actually more comparable to the COTF invading the North and killing all the lords. Let me be clear, Dany conquering Westeros would be bad, in the same way Aegon doing it was bad, or Renly trying to, or Stannis trying to, or Baelon and Joffrey trying to conquer the North, all they are or would be doing is causing a large amount of death and suffering for their pride.

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Just now, CamiloRP said:

The thing is that the Starks living in the North thousands of years after it was taken from the COTF is not the same as, or even similar to, Dany bringing war to Westeros to take her 'birthright', that's actually more comparable to the COTF invading the North and killing all the lords. Let me be clear, Dany conquering Westeros would be bad, in the same way Aegon doing it was bad, or Renly trying to, or Stannis trying to, or Baelon and Joffrey trying to conquer the North, all they are or would be doing is causing a large amount of death and suffering for their pride.

Ok.I get what you are saying : war for personal gains or offense is bad and I agree but giving the fact that they live in a world with absolute monarchy I don't expect them to have the same view as we.

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12 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

harm no child over 12 " does not mean "kill everyone over 11".I'm sure the Unsullied were clever enough to understand that she simply commanded children not to be harmed elsewise they would still be in Astapor figuring out everyone's age.

I am sorry but I am only talking about what is in the books. What is in the books is the order to not harm the children under the age of 12, thus kill every highborn child over the age of 12.

14 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Her allowing Shapevate to do as he considers in order to obtain information form the winseller was because he and his daughters (we don't know their age) were the only suspects and more important the deaths that occured that night.

They were girls that were living in their father's home. Which lead us to the theory that they were not married hence they were too young to be married. 

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2 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I doubt that at the end Westeros will change much.Martin said it's absolute monarchy there so the best thing I hope is that at least there will be a ruler who will finally reform things for the small folk,giving them protection and support.

Yeah, Westeros won't turn into a giant hippy commune by story's end, but it can certainly improve, Dornish Law seems to contain a lot of social justice in it, and the Night' Watch, Iron Born and even Freefolk all have kinda-democracies, this influences can bring some positive change.

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Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I am sorry but I am only talking about what is in the books. What is in the books is the order to not harm the children under the age of 12, thus kill every highborn child over the age of 12.

And how did the Usuliied figured out everyone's age?Isn't more plausible that they simply did not kill children?

 

1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

They were girls that were living in their father's home. Which lead us to the theory that they were not married hence they were too young to be married. 

They arrested the whineseller and his daughters all as suspect so they all worked there,at the shop where the unsullied were poisoned.

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Just now, Oana_Mika said:

Ok.I get what you are saying : war for personal gains or offense is bad and I agree but giving the fact that they live in a world with absolute monarchy I don't expect them to have the same view as we.

The story is about that tho, it highlights the moral failings of the period and the horror of war, as I said above:

 

8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

yeah, absolutely, tho I think that part fo what Martin tries to question is the glorification of medieval times, and in that sense, something that is wrong now, was equally wrong then. 

 

So I don't think it's unfair to point out these things, and I do think Dany would either realice conquering Westeros would be wrong, or conquer it anyway and be framed as a villain (or at least wrong in doing so)

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2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The story is about that tho, it highlights the moral failings of the period and the horror of war, as I said above:

 

 

So I don't think it's unfair to point out these things, and I do think Dany would either realice conquering Westeros would be wrong, or conquer it anyway and be framed as a villain (or at least wrong in doing so)

And why is she the only one to be framed as the villain for wanting what was of her family back and the others get scot-free?

Edited by Oana_Mika
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4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And how did the Usuliied figured out everyone's age?Isn't more plausible that they simply did not kill children?

It's more plausible that they killed children even younger that 12 years old.

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

They arrested the whineseller and his daughters all as suspect so they all worked there,at the shop where the unsullied were poisoned.

Which doesn't mean that the girls were not children.

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3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And why is she the only one to be framed as the villain for wanting what was of her family back and the others get scot-free?

I don't think the others get scot free, throughout the story every war waging character is seen as a villain in a way, the Lannisters are vilains, Stannis is a vilain, the Iron Born are villains, and, while their cause was a bit more just (freeing themselves from foreign rule) the Riverlands' smallfolk think the Northerners are almost as bad as the Lannisters. 

Also, Dany doesn't want what was of her family back, she wants to rule over Westeros because she feels she deserves it, she feels it's her right, because she thinks she has special blood and is superior to everyone, and that's villanous. But Dany is battling that form of thinking too tho, she fights the slavers, who think they are superior to the slaves, and Dany knows it to be false, so she will eventually know she has no right to rule and that her blood doesn't make her special, at least that's what I hope.

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Just now, CamiloRP said:

Also, Dany doesn't want what was of her family back, she wants to rule over Westeros because she feels she deserves it, she feels it's her right, because she thinks she has special blood and is superior to everyone, and that's villanous. But Dany is battling that form of thinking too tho, she fights the slavers, who think they are superior to the slaves, and Dany knows it to be false, so she will eventually know she has no right to rule and that her blood doesn't make her special, at least that's what I hope.

She does not believe in blood superiority.She only believes in birthright,like everyone in this serie,including the Starks,who also wage war in the name of their family.

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1 minute ago, CamiloRP said:

 

Also, Dany doesn't want what was of her family back, she wants to rule over Westeros because she feels she deserves it, she feels it's her right, because she thinks she has special blood and is superior to everyone, and that's villanous. But Dany is battling that form of thinking too tho, she fights the slavers, who think they are superior to the slaves, and Dany knows it to be false, so she will eventually know she has no right to rule and that her blood doesn't make her special, at least that's what I hope.

I would say that her work in Essos is vastly more important than winning the Iron Throne - save for the existential threat from the North, which Marwyn and the Red Clergy will no doubt raise with her.  

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9 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

How so?

 

I doubt that children worked there.

It would be unrealistic to suppose that no innocents were killed at Astapor in the Plaza of Pride.  But, many times that number of innocents were liberated.  8,000 Unsullied, 5,500 uncut boys, and the 40,000 civilians who left with them, had done nothing to merit being made slaves.

Edited by SeanF
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