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Is Daenerys justified in wiping out House Lannister/Baratheon since they tried to do the same to House Targaryen?


Mario Seddy
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53 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Viserys had told her

As I said, Viserys raised her thinking that, and she believes him, she doesn't disagree with him in that part, in fact, she agrees with this, while disagreeing to marry Drogo, partially based on this. And the following quotes support her being obsessed with her bloodline.

 

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This is she giving herself courage,like the Starks when they think they are the blood of Winterfell or have woolf's blood.

The wolf's blood is not used by the Starks, its used somewhat pejoratively to paint them as savages. and the phrase "Blood of Winterfell" is used only four times in the entire story, twice by Jon, once by Sansa and once by the Halfhand, the Starks collectively have 106 chapters, compared to Dany's 31 chapters. So the Phrase 'Blood of Winterfell" is used by Starks 0,028 times per Stark chapter, while  'Blood of the Dragon" is used by Dany 17 times in AGOT alone, averaging 1,7 times per chapter, because Dany is obsessed with her bloodline and the superiority of her blood. No other character talks about their bloodline as much as Dany.

 

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This is her reminding herself that she is the last Targaryen and that is her duity to restore her house name and do right by it.It has nothing to do with blood superiority.

Why i it her duty to do that? the Targaryens were kicked out of Westeros, with help from the smallfolk, people didn't want them there. Is it her duty because the Targaryen are special?

 

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This is her trying to harden her heart and giving herself strenght to endure what she sees : the suffering of the Lamb men and we see immediately later that she can't.Again,it has nothing to do with blood superiority.

Why would having the blood of the dragon make her strenght? is it because the blood of the dragon is superior?

 

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This is her claiming power through her name and heritage in order to stop the rape of the Lhazarren women.

This is her claiming that, because of her blood, Jorah can't limit her, because her blood makes her superior to him.

 

 

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This is her reminding Qotho that she is not nothing.This lines come immediately before the one you quoted: "Only while the blood-of-my-blood still lives," Qotho told the knight. "When he dies, she is nothing." and she was fighting him to not harm Mirri.

Why is she not nothing? does her blood make her special?

 

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This is her giving herself courage.


She gives herself courage.Again,this is not believing in blood superiority.

Again, why would her blood give her courage? does her blood make her better?

 

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This is to show that indeed she can avenge Eroeh and punish those who hurt her.That she is not nothing.Again,where is the blood superiority here?

Again, why does her blood make her not nothing?

 

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All that you showed me is her using the "blood of the dragon" and her heritage as something to draw strenght from and to show others that she is worthy of respect, that she is not nothing.This does not show at all that she is someone who believes in blood superiority.

No, what I showed is that she was raised with the notion that her blood makes her superior to everyone else, that her blood is 'golden' that her bloodline must be kept pure and that the rest of men are less than her, because of her blood. She comes from a family that embodies this notions, that practiced incest regularly based on this notions. I showed that Daenerys thinks about her bloodline much, much more than any other character in the story, and that she uses her blood to signify that she's someone to take seriously, meaning that people without her special blood shouldn't be taken seriously, and to give her courage, because Dragons don't fear, fear is for lesser creatures, like non-Targaryens.

But even ignoring all this, based on her upbringing and the history of her family, we should assume she thinks her blood makes her better than anyone else until proven differently. If we talk about a white man from the 1700s we would all assume he thinks he's better than black people, and we would need evidence of the contrary to think otherwise, especially if this man was raised by massive racist who thought him that having sex with non-white people was wrong, and even more so if this man talked about how he was 'the blood of Europe' as a reason to be respected, claim that people who aren't the 'blood of Europe' can't tell him what to do and to give himself courage.

Yet, despite all this, you think Dany doesn't think she's special based on her blood, why is that? what leads you to think in that way?

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1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

And that's without quoting others saying this about the Stark children.

By this he means the Halfhand and literally no one else. 

Danerys says/thinks the phrases Blood of the Dragon and Blood of Valyria around forty times while having a third of the chapters the Starks have, and that's without counting the times others saying this about her.

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

By this he means the Halfhand and literally no one else. 

Danerys says/thinks the phrases Blood of the Dragon and Blood of Valyria around forty times while having a third of the chapters the Starks have, and that's without counting the times others saying this about her.

Royalty and nobility are obsessed with their bloodlines.  In LOTR, Aragorn is going on endlessly about being Isildur’s heir, and everyone thinks Numenorean blood is awesome. He even has an eagle of Manwe proclaiming him the rightful king.

In this tale, people think Valyrian blood is awesome, and every lord is obsessed with his sigils and his ancestry.  And they all think their blood makes them superior to the masses.

Nobody apart from Arya thinks that that the smallfolk are equals, or that their lives are as important as those of the highborn. 
 

Dany’s attitude towards the smallfolk is paternalistic, but far more enlightened than most of her class.  But Dany still shares a lot of the prejudices of the highborn. (Edit:  actually the execution of 163 Great Masters is a statement that the lives of slave children are equivalent to their own).

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Royalty and nobility are obsessed with their bloodlines.  In LOTR, Aragorn is going on endlessly about being Isildur’s heir, and everyone thinks Numenorean blood is awesome. He even has an eagle of Manwe proclaiming him the rightful king.

Yes, but this story deconstructs those notions.

 

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In this tale, people think Valyrian blood is awesome, and every lord is obsessed with his sigils and his ancestry.  And they all think their blood makes them superior to the masses.

None of them as much as Dany tho, and still, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

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Nobody apart from Arya thinks that that the smallfolk are equals, or that their lives are as important as those of the highborn.  Dany’s attitude towards the smallfolk is paternalistic, but far more enlightened than most of her class.  But Dany still shares a lot of the prejudices of the highborn.

In her treatment of the smallfolk she's better, and yes, Dany is one of the coolest, most progressive characters in the stoyr, but she also sees other nobles as beneath her based on her blood.

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5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

As I said, Viserys raised her thinking that, and she believes him, she doesn't disagree with him in that part, in fact, she agrees with this, while disagreeing to marry Drogo, partially based on this. And the following quotes support her being obsessed with her bloodline.

That is not the reason she diasgrees to marry Drogo.It's because she is being sold to a man who frighten her more than anyone in the world at that moment and she definitely does not agree with her brother.That's why while she adapts to the dothrakis,Viserys thinks he is better than them,not realising he is being mocked and ultimately he does something against their customs,because he thinks they can't touch him,that leads to his death.

Viserys came upon her as sudden as a summer storm, his horse rearing beneath him as he reined up too hard. "You dare!" he screamed at her. "You give commands to me? To me?" He vaulted off the horse, stumbling as he landed. His face was flushed as he struggled back to his feet. He grabbed her, shook her. "Have you forgotten who you are? Look at you. Look at you!"
Dany did not need to look. She was barefoot, with oiled hair, wearing Dothraki riding leathers and a painted vest given her as a bride gift. She looked as though she belonged here. Viserys was soiled and stained in city silks and ringmail. - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III
Viserys was less impressed. "The trash of dead cities," he sneered. He was careful to speak in the Common Tongue, which few Dothraki could understand, yet even so Dany found herself glancing back at the men of her khas, to make certain he had not been overheard. He went on blithely. "All these savages know how to do is steal the things better men have built … and kill." He laughed. "They do know how to kill. Otherwise I'd have no use for them at all."
"They are my people now," Dany said. "You should not call them savages, brother." - "A Game of Thrones" - Daenerys IV

The Qartheen lined the streets and watched from delicate balconies that looked too frail to support their weight. They were tall pale folk in linen and samite and tiger fur, every one a lord or lady to her eyes. The women wore gowns that left one breast bare, while the men favored beaded silk skirts. Dany felt shabby and barbaric as she rode past them in her lionskin robe with black Drogon on one shoulder. Her Dothraki called the Qartheen "Milk Men" for their paleness, and Khal Drogo had dreamed of the day when he might sack the great cities of the east. She glanced at her bloodriders, their dark almond-shaped eyes giving no hint of their thoughts. Is it only the plunder they see? she wondered. How savage we must seem to these Qartheen.  - "A Clash of Kings" - Daenerys II


She also ended by loving Drogo because he gave her something that she never had in a long time : a family and protection and she takes everyone in her counsel from dothrakis,to former slaves,to meereense nobles and sellswords.She is one of the characters that adapts easily to other cultures and respects them.Just like in Meereen,the only things she feels apprehention towards are those that are ingrained in slavery.

 
5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The wolf's blood is not used by the Starks, its used somewhat pejoratively to paint them as savages. and the phrase "Blood of Winterfell" is used only four times in the entire story, twice by Jon, once by Sansa and once by the Halfhand, the Starks collectively have 106 chapters, compared to Dany's 31 chapters. So the Phrase 'Blood of Winterfell" is used by Starks 0,028 times per Stark chapter, while  'Blood of the Dragon" is used by Dany 17 times in AGOT alone, averaging 1,7 times per chapter, because Dany is obsessed with her bloodline and the superiority of her blood. No other character talks about their bloodline as much as Dany.

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

Ned regarded him coldly. "Lord Baelish, I am a Stark of Winterfell. My son lies crippled, perhaps dying. He would be dead, and Catelyn with him, but for a wolf pup we found in the snow. If you truly believe I could forget that, you are as big a fool now as when you took up sword against my brother." A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV


"I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell, and if you lay a hand on me my lord father will have both your heads on spikes. If you don't believe me, fetch Jory Cassel or Vayon Poole from the Tower of the Hand."

Bran flared. "I'm Brandon Stark of Winterfell, and you better let go of my horse, or I'll see you all dead."


I’m a Stark of Winterfell, our sigil is the direwolf, direwolves  don’t cry. - ACOK, Arya I

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."
"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."
"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth. A Clash of Kings - Arya X
Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.
"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. A Game of Thrones - Bran I

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest.  A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I
 
"I expect you will want to say your words before a heart tree, as your uncle did," Mormont said.
"Yes, my lord," Jon said. The gods of the sept had nothing to do with him; the blood of the First Men flowed in the veins of the Starks.
He heard Grenn whispering behind him. "There's no godswood here. Is there? I never saw a godswood." A Game of Thrones - Jon VI
"Why? Why? Why?" the raven called.
"All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours … he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I'm not." Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. "I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall."
His words sent a chill of excitement down Jon's back. "Beyond the Wall?"  A Game of Thrones - Jon IX


They also reffer to as having wolf's blood or are pround of having Eddard Stark's blood running through their veins,or the blood of the Kings of Winter,or appeal to their heritage to show strenght and who they are,that people can't simply mess with them.There is nothing wrong with that,yet when Daenerys uses her heritage and the "blood of the dragon" to assert herself or to give her and others that follow her strenght it suddently becomes wrong.I pointed in my previous reply that all the quotes you gave me only shows that she is telling herself that to be brave,to remember her heritage or to assert herself in front of someone.Context matters.

 
5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

No, what I showed is that she was raised with the notion that her blood makes her superior to everyone else, that her blood is 'golden' that her bloodline must be kept pure and that the rest of men are less than her, because of her blood. She comes from a family that embodies this notions, that practiced incest regularly based on this notions. I showed that Daenerys thinks about her bloodline much, much more than any other character in the story, and that she uses her blood to signify that she's someone to take seriously, meaning that people without her special blood shouldn't be taken seriously, and to give her courage, because Dragons don't fear, fear is for lesser creatures, like non-Targaryens.

But even ignoring all this, based on her upbringing and the history of her family, we should assume she thinks her blood makes her better than anyone else until proven differently. If we talk about a white man from the 1700s we would all assume he thinks he's better than black people, and we would need evidence of the contrary to think otherwise, especially if this man was raised by massive racist who thought him that having sex with non-white people was wrong, and even more so if this man talked about how he was 'the blood of Europe' as a reason to be respected, claim that people who aren't the 'blood of Europe' can't tell him what to do and to give himself courage.

Yet, despite all this, you think Dany doesn't think she's special based on her blood, why is that? what leads you to think in that way?




Yet she is happy to have Drogo's son,she dreams of having a simple life with Daario and she marries Hizdahar.The Targaryens also married very much outside their family.You only have to look at the family tree.You brought no evidence that she thinks she is better than everyone,you just showed instances of her trying to be brave through her ancestors and family,just like the Starks do.
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4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Again, why does her blood make her not nothing?

As @SeanF said,in the medieval society and fantasy stories,people refer to their bloodline to show that they don't come from nothing and it's your idea that the story deconstruct's this and I doubt it,giving the fact how the lords and nobility act and think,including the Starks.That's why they are proud of their ancestors,Kings and kins.

Yes, Arya thought. Yes, it’s you who ought to run, you and Lord Tywin and the Mountain and Ser Addam and Ser Amory and stupid Ser Lyonel whoever he is, all of you better run or my brother will kill you, he’s a Stark, he’s more wolf than man, and so am I.

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they’ll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. A Storm of Swords - Arya XIII



And here is an inteerview that refutes your statement that she sees herself above others:

On the ADWD cover for Brazil, I put Daenerys at the top of the stairs of the meereenese pyramid. I had undoubtedly been, unconsciously, influenced by the series. And George told me that Daenerys wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people, so I had her climb down to keep it consistent”  - Marc Simonetti

https://www.lagardedenuit.com/interview-de-marc-simonetti-2018/

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16 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, but this story deconstructs those notions.

 

None of them as much as Dany tho, and still, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

In her treatment of the smallfolk she's better, and yes, Dany is one of the coolest, most progressive characters in the stoyr, but she also sees other nobles as beneath her based on her blood.

I think that "the Blood of Old Valyria", and "Blood of the Dragon" are psychological props for Daenerys, who when it comes down to it, has quite a low level of self-esteem, IMHO.  She's constantly beating herself up over her mistakes, and blaming herself for the actions of other people (eg over Eroeh).

She's internalised Viserys' views about Targaryen greatness, but she's also internalised his constant belittling of her as a whore and a slut. That's ultimately what she calls herself during her last fever dream "Murderer, Betrayer, Whore."

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17 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

That is not the reason she diasgrees to marry Drogo.It's because she is being sold to a man who frighten her more than anyone in the world at that moment and she definitely does not agree with her brother.That's why while she adapts to the dothrakis,Viserys thinks he is better than them,not realising he is being mocked and ultimately he does something against their customs,because he thinks they can't touch him,that leads to his death.

One of the reasons I said, is it the biggest one? not by a long shot, but it's an argument she uses. And yes, she is better than Viserys, because she changes over her journey, she adapts and she learns, she still has a lot of learning to do tho, that's why I think that in the end she will not go for the throne, because she will in time learn how that's another tool of oppression.

 

 

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The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen A Game of Thrones - Sansa 

Ned regarded him coldly. "Lord Baelish, I am a Stark of Winterfell. My son lies crippled, perhaps dying. He would be dead, and Catelyn with him, but for a wolf pup we found in the snow. If you truly believe I could forget that, you are as big a fool now as when you took up sword against my brother." A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV


"I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell, and if you lay a hand on me my lord father will have both your heads on spikes. If you don't believe me, fetch Jory Cassel or Vayon Poole from the Tower of the Hand."

Bran flared. "I'm Brandon Stark of Winterfell, and you better let go of my horse, or I'll see you all dead."


I’m a Stark of Winterfell, our sigil is the direwolf, direwolves  don’t cry. - ACOK, Arya I

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."
"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."
"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth. A Clash of Kings - Arya X
Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.
"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. A Game of Thrones - Bran I

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest.  A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I
 
"I expect you will want to say your words before a heart tree, as your uncle did," Mormont said.
"Yes, my lord," Jon said. The gods of the sept had nothing to do with him; the blood of the First Men flowed in the veins of the Starks.
He heard Grenn whispering behind him. "There's no godswood here. Is there? I never saw a godswood." A Game of Thrones - Jon VI
"Why? Why? Why?" the raven called.
"All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours … he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I'm not." Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. "I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall."
His words sent a chill of excitement down Jon's back. "Beyond the Wall?"  A Game of Thrones - Jon IX


They also reffer to as having wolf's blood or are pround of having Eddard Stark's blood running through their veins,or the blood of the Kings of Winter,or appeal to their heritage to show strenght and who they are,that people can't simply mess with them.There is nothing wrong with that,yet when Daenerys uses her heritage and the "blood of the dragon" to assert herself or to give her and others that follow her strenght it suddently becomes wrong.I pointed in my previous reply that all the quotes you gave me only shows that she is telling herself that to be brave,to remember her heritage or to assert herself in front of someone.Context matters.

First of all, the Starks doing it doesn't mean Dany is right to do it, just that both are wrong, there's a phrase in my country 'the wrongness of many is the comfort of the fool'. And as I said before, yes, all houses feel superior to others based on their blood, Ned even ties this to morality, and feels that Starks are in general morally superior to the Lannisters, as I write about in War Won't Save The World, but even then you where able to provide me with 10 examples over 53 chapters in one book, while there is 17 examples in Dany's 10 chapters in the same book, because she thinks about it more. All nobles feel superior to the smallfolk, yes, and even some houses feel superior to some other houses the Starks based on their First Men blood, the Arryns based on being the purest of Andals and the Tyrells based on descending from Garth Greendhand, and every house feels superior to the Freys, but there's no house or no individual who feels superior to all other houses based purely on their blood. Tywin thinks he's above everyone, but that's based on his money and him thinking he's smarter than he is, not on blood. Of all the houses only the Targaryens think blood makes them better than absolutely anyone else, a lesson Dany has internalized. 

 

Also, I want to clarify that some of your examples don't count in my opinion, as they are threats, Arya and Bran, for example, Arya isn't being let in into KL, and Bran is near to be killed, they are saying 'this is who I am, so you better don't fuck with me cause I can fuck with you back' is the medieval version of 'my father is a lawyer' which, yes, is prickly and entitled, but I don't think it counts as a show of them thinking they are better (tho they definitely do), in those situations you use the tools you have.

 

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 Yet she is happy to have Drogo's son,she dreams of having a simple life with Daario and she marries Hizdahar.

Before she meets him, Dany thinks Drogo is a savage barbarian, she then meets him and realices he's not... because that's how prejudice works, humans can't be savages, so to destroy prejudice the only thing you need is to know intimately someone whom you are prejudiced against, most people aren't willing to, but Dany had no choice. 

 

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The Targaryens also married very much outside their family.You only have to look at the family tree.

Yes, I never said they never married outside their family, but they don't get points for that, the norm for Targs was marrying family members, they are by much the most inbred family in fiction or real life, and just because they wanted to keep their blood pure. 

 

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You brought no evidence that she thinks she is better than everyone,you just showed instances of her trying to be brave through her ancestors and family,just like the Starks do.

Nah, I showed instances of her using her blood to put herself above people, and this is not the same as Bran or Arya doing it, because Bran and Arya can back up their claim with armies, Dany only has her blood. When Bran says 'Im Bran Stark of Winterfell, touch me and I'll fuck you up.' the first part lets the person he's speaking to know that he can indeed fuck them up, because he can command armies. When Dany says "I'm the blood of the dragon, do as I say" she's just sayin 'my blood makes me better than you.

 

17 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

As @SeanF said,in the medieval society and fantasy stories,people refer to their bloodline to show that they don't come from nothing and it's your idea that the story deconstruct's this and I doubt it,giving the fact how the lords and nobility act and think,including the Starks.That's why they are proud of their ancestors,Kings and kins.

It's not my idea, George talks a lot about deconstruction and subverting expectations, most stories he's written deconstruct the ideas presented in ASOIAF, and ASOIAF itself mentions this issues, like blood meaning nothing to the Freefolk or every time they question someone ruling over land based on inheritance and blood, like Nettles being able to ride a dragon despite not having any Targaryen blood, like Varys 'power is a shadow on the wall' speech. Who is the one character more obsessed with bloodlines than Dany? Melissandre, a woman who serves a religion so awful that they burn people alive because they think differently, a woman who's basically the same character as the villain in GRRM's best book, and even her wants Mance's blood as king's blood, even tho he has no royal ascendance. 

Stories aren't just plot, they also have themes and subtext, and in ASOIAF, these deconstruct the story itself. Martin is a very political writer, he has spent most of his career writing about the evils of war, exploitation and othering, he wouldn't change that in his magnus opus, would he?

 

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And here is an inteerview that refutes your statement that she sees herself above others:

On the ADWD cover for Brazil, I put Daenerys at the top of the stairs of the meereenese pyramid. I had undoubtedly been, unconsciously, influenced by the series. And George told me that Daenerys wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people, so I had her climb down to keep it consistent”  - Marc Simonetti

https://www.lagardedenuit.com/interview-de-marc-simonetti-2018/

Yes, she grows, she wants equality, and she will realice more and more how much she needs to change to achieve it, in the world and herself, but now, she still envisions herself in the top.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

She's internalised Viserys' views about Targaryen greatness, but she's also internalised his constant belittling of her as a whore and a slut. That's ultimately what she calls herself during her last fever dream "Murderer, Betrayer, Whore."

Yes, I agree with this.

 

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I think that "the Blood of Old Valyria", and "Blood of the Dragon" are psychological props for Daenerys, who when it comes down to it, has quite a low level of self-esteem, IMHO.  She's constantly beating herself up over her mistakes, and blaming herself for the actions of other people (eg over Eroeh).

This tho... she can use it as a prop sometimes, but it comes from a fundamental belief in her. own superiority, and sometimes she uses it plainly as a show of superiority.

"I am khaleesi, heir to the Seven Kingdoms, the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "It is not for you to tell me what I cannot do." 

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20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

One of the reasons I said, is it the biggest one? not by a long shot, but it's an argument she uses. And yes, she is better than Viserys, because she changes over her journey, she adapts and she learns, she still has a lot of learning to do tho, that's why I think that in the end she will not go for the throne, because she will in time learn how that's another tool of oppression.

Where is pointed that one of the reasons she did not want to marry Drogo is because she thinks she is better than him?Because I rememeber that the sole reason is because she has only 13 years old,she is terrified because she is being sold to a man twice her age,about whom she knows nothing.

[...]Her brother hung the gown beside the door. "Illyrio will send the slaves to bathe you. Be sure you wash off the stink of the stables. Khal Drogo has a thousand horses, tonight he looks for a different sort of mount." He studied her critically. "You still slouch. Straighten yourself" He pushed back her shoulders with his hands. "Let them see that you have a woman's shape now." His fingers brushed lightly over her budding br**sts and tightened on a nipple. "You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" His fingers twisted her, the pinch cruelly hard through the rough fabric of her tunic. "Do you?" he repeated.

"No," Dany said meekly.

Her brother smiled. "Good." He touched her hair, almost with affection. "When they write the history of my reign, sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight."

[...]When he was gone, Dany went to her window and looked out wistfully on the waters of the bay. The square brick towers of Pentos were black silhouettes outlined against the setting sun. Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse. [...]

[...]"We will have it all back someday, sweet sister," he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. "The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King's Landing, the Iron Throne and the SevenKingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back." Viserys lived for that day. All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known. [...]

[...]"Now you look all a princess," the girl said breathlessly when they were done. Dany glanced at her image in the silvered looking glass that Illyrio had so thoughtfully provided. A princess, she thought, but she remembered what the girl had said, how Khal Drogo was so rich even his slaves wore golden collars. She felt a sudden chill, and gooseflesh pimpled her bare arms. [...]

[...]She was still looking at this strange man from the homeland she had never known when Magister Illyrio placed a moist hand on her bare shoulder. "Over there, sweet princess," he whispered, "there is the khal himself."

Dany wanted to run and hide, but her brother was looking at her, and if she displeased him she knew she would wake the dragon. Anxiously, she turned and looked at the man Viserys hoped would ask to wed her before the night was done. [..]

[...]Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. "I don't want to be his queen," she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. "Please, please, Viserys, I don't want to, I want to go home."

"Home?" He kept his voice low, but she could hear the fury in his tone. "How are we to go home, sweet sister? They took our home from us!" He drew her into the shadows, out of sight, his fingers digging into her skin. "How are we to go home?" he repeated, meaning King's Landing, and Dragonstone, and all the realm they had lost.

Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio's estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him. His fingers dug hard into her arm, demanding an answer. "I don't know . . . "she said at last, her voice breaking. Tears welled in her eyes.

"I do," he said sharply. "We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo's army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will." He smiled at her. "I'd let his whole khalasar f*ck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying."

Dany turned and saw that it was true. Magister Illyrio, all smiles and bows, was escorting Khal Drogo over to where they stood. She brushed away unfallen tears with the back of her hand.

"Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand failing to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is."

Daenerys smiled, and stood up straight. [...] - "A Game of Thrones" - Daenerys I


[...]Dany had never felt so alone as she did seated in the midst of that vast horde. Her brother had told her to smile, and so she smiled until her face ached and the tears came unbidden to her eyes. She did her best to hide them, knowing how angry Viserys would be if he saw her crying, terrified of how Khal Drogo might react. Food was brought to her, steaming joints of meat and thick black sausages and Dothraki blood pies, and later fruits and sweetgrass stews and delicate pastries from the kitchens of Pentos, but she waved it all away. Her stomach was a roil, and she knew she could keep none of it down.

There was no one to talk to. Khal Drogo shouted commands and jests down to his bloodriders, and laughed at their replies, but he scarcely glanced at Dany beside him. They had no common language. Dothraki was incomprehensible to her, and the khal knew only a few words of the bastard Valyrian of the Free Cities, and none at all of the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms. She would even have welcomed the conversation of Illyrio and her brother, but they were too far below to hear her.

So she sat in her wedding silks, nursing a cup of honeyed wine, afraid to eat, talking silently to herself. I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror. [...]

[...]Dany looked away from the coupling, frightened when she realized what was happening, but a second warrior stepped forward, and a third, and soon there was no way to avert her eyes. Then two men seized the same woman. She heard a shout, saw a shove, and in the blink of an eye the arakhs were out, long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe. A dance of death began as the warriors circled and slashed, leaping toward each other, whirling the blades around their heads, shrieking insults at each clash. No one made a move to interfere.

It ended as quickly as it began. The arakhs shivered together faster than Dany could follow, one man missed a step, the other swung his blade in a flat arc. Steel bit into flesh just above the Dothraki's waist, and opened him from backbone to belly button, spilling his entrails into the dust. As the loser died, the winner took hold of the nearest woman - not even the one they had been quarreling over - and had her there and then. Slaves carried off the body, and the dancing resumed.

Magister Illyrio had warned Dany about this too. "A Dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is deemed a dull affair," he had said. Her wedding must have been especially blessed; before the day was over, a dozen men had died
. As the hours passed, the terror grew in Dany, until it was all she could do not to scream. She was afraid of the Dothraki, whose ways seemed alien and monstrous, as if they were beasts in human skins and not true men at all. She was afraid of her brother, of what he might do if she failed him. Most of all, she was afraid of what would happen tonight under the stars, when her brother gave her up to the hulking giant who sat drinking beside her with a face as still and cruel as a bronze mask.

I am the blood of the dragon, she told herself again.[..] - "A Game of Thrones" -Daenerys II


So as you can see,the only things she feels are terror and loneliness.

 
20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

First of all, the Starks doing it doesn't mean Dany is right to do it, just that both are wrong, there's a phrase in my country 'the wrongness of many is the comfort of the fool'. And as I said before, yes, all houses feel superior to others based on their blood, Ned even ties this to morality, and feels that Starks are in general morally superior to the Lannisters, as I write about in War Won't Save The World, but even then you where able to provide me with 10 examples over 53 chapters in one book, while there is 17 examples in Dany's 10 chapters in the same book, because she thinks about it more. All nobles feel superior to the smallfolk, yes, and even some houses feel superior to some other houses the Starks based on their First Men blood, the Arryns based on being the purest of Andals and the Tyrells based on descending from Garth Greendhand, and every house feels superior to the Freys, but there's no house or no individual who feels superior to all other houses based purely on their blood. Tywin thinks he's above everyone, but that's based on his money and him thinking he's smarter than he is, not on blood. Of all the houses only the Targaryens think blood makes them better than absolutely anyone else, a lesson Dany has internalized. 

You quoted explicitly from AGoT,where she has one of the most mentions of "the blood of the dragon",when she uses it very often due to her being scared,alone and needing to give herself courage or to assert herself in front of others.Her having more times repeating it does not prove anything,context matters and I showed you quotes where she specifically puts herself at the same level with the people that follow her.Here is another one,in case you missed the other two quotes:

High on the walls of Meereen, the jeers had grown louder, and now hundreds of the defenders were taking their lead from the hero and pissing down through the ramparts to show their contempt for the besiegers. They are pissing on slaves, to show how little they fear us, she thought. They would never dare such a thing if it were a Dothraki khalasar outside their gates. - A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

 

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Nah, I showed instances of her using her blood to put herself above people, and this is not the same as Bran or Arya doing it, because Bran and Arya can back up their claim with armies, Dany only has her blood. When Bran says 'Im Bran Stark of Winterfell, touch me and I'll fuck you up.' the first part lets the person he's speaking to know that he can indeed fuck them up, because he can command armies. When Dany says "I'm the blood of the dragon, do as I say" she's just sayin 'my blood makes me better than you.

So the probelm is that she has no armies to back her up when she uses her heritage?
 

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It's not my idea, George talks a lot about deconstruction and subverting expectations, most stories he's written deconstruct the ideas presented in ASOIAF, and ASOIAF itself mentions this issues, like blood meaning nothing to the Freefolk or every time they question someone ruling over land based on inheritance and blood, like Nettles being able to ride a dragon despite not having any Targaryen blood, like Varys 'power is a shadow on the wall' speech. Who is the one character more obsessed with bloodlines than Dany? Melissandre, a woman who serves a religion so awful that they burn people alive because they think differently, a woman who's basically the same character as the villain in GRRM's best book, and even her wants Mance's blood as king's blood, even tho he has no royal ascendance. 

Stories aren't just plot, they also have themes and subtext, and in ASOIAF, these deconstruct the story itself. Martin is a very political writer, he has spent most of his career writing about the evils of war, exploitation and othering, he wouldn't change that in his magnus opus, would he?


 

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, she grows, she wants equality, and she will realice more and more how much she needs to change to achieve it, in the world and herself, but now, she still envisions herself in the top.

 

19 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

This tho... she can use it as a prop sometimes, but it comes from a fundamental belief in her. own superiority, and sometimes she uses it plainly as a show of superiority.

"I am khaleesi, heir to the Seven Kingdoms, the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "It is not for you to tell me what I cannot do." 


She tells Jorah that because he told her she couldn't save the women and she asserted herself to help others.
She used her name as a POLITICAL TOOL. Barristan would not have followed her WERE SHE NOT TARGARYEN. Magister Illyrio would not have helped her and Viserys then later given her three ships and a protector WERE SHE NOT TARGARYEN. The captain of the ship who brought her the news of Robert Baratheon's death would not have done so WERE SHE NOT TARGARYEN.The people of Westeros would not be raising secret toasts to her health WERE SHE NOT TARGARYEN.Dany herself has low self esteem and is so self critical, she wants equality for all and to be one with her people, but in order for her to achieve what she wants she HAS to assert herself with her blood and heritage. She comes from line of Conquerors and Kings, in a Feudal Society that means A LOT even to the smallfolk.
It reminds me of Aegon V. He didn't think of himself as superior to the smallfolk he grew up around, but in dangerous situations he wasn't afraid to whip out his ring to prove his heritage and put an end to conflict.Because in a fedual medieval society, blood is important. You have not given one instance of Dany actually thinking to herself that she's better than other people. Different yes, which she is,but NEVER superior.Just like the Starks are different due to their status,ancestors and bloodline (the blood of the first men gives them the ability to warg,skinchange,have green dreams,wolf dreams and being a greenseer).
 
 
 
Edited by Oana_Mika
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