The differences and similarities between Cersei and Catelyn

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So there are quite a lot of interesting similarities between Cat and Cersei when you think about it, which lead to some really nice thought provoking commentary

- both were the treasured eldest daughters of a major house

- both were sold as little more then broodmares to the second option (Robert after Rhaegar and Ned after Brandon)

- both marriages started out loveless arranged marriages

- both had to deal with their husbands infidelity

- this is mostly irrelevant but besides Arya, all their children take after them and not their husbands.

- both have a general fuck you got mine attitude. Cat doesn't seem to truly give a shit about anybody not named Stark or Tully, thinking about all of them with jaded cynicism while Cersei, well she doesn't give a shit about anybody but herself.

- both do a lot of stupid shit based on emotions

But in all those similarities there is one major difference. Cat is a kind, good person (albeit a very flawed one) while Cersei is a vile bitch.

And really there are only 2 major difference between them. Cersei's narcissism and the fact that Cat's marriage was a success while Cersei's was anything but. So with all of this is GRRM hinting at just how small the difference between good and evil is?

[Loose Bolt]

Actually their situation was price of their pedigree. For instance princesses of ruling dynasties of kingdoms of Denmark and Sweden very often had to marry a man who just have been enemy of her family and they knew that their possible children would almost certainly fight against their relatives. Or those kingdoms were "natural enemies" and fought 11 wars with each other. 

Besides daughters of any VIP usually could not really choose who she would marry. Or possibility that a daughter of a major house would be sold by her father (or her brother) as a breeding mare was very high. Besides male VIPs very often kept lovers and that was considered as normal. So Cat and Cercei had a lot of counterparts in real life and the situation they found themselves was very common.

[Angel Eyes]

Arya actually takes a couple traits from Catelyn: some of her passionate personality, her sense of justice molding into a need for revenge.

Another difference between Catelyn and Cersei is that Catelyn was raised as her father's heir until Edmure was born while Cersei knew from the get-go that Jaime was the heir.

[RedDragon]

Yeah I’ve personally been thinking a lot about this, the similarities are almost too numerous to be an accident. 
 

My spicy hot take is that I think cat while a nominally better person than Cersei is still not someone you should aspire to. Tldr she’s not that much better if at all.

I think without the benefit of spending three whole books in her perspective and the general fact that she’s on team good guy I do not think she would be as favorably looked upon as she is now. The difference being perspective and context. We knew as the story progressed and as she acts why she did those things right or wrong we are predisposed to believing her. 
 

whereas with Cersei we’ve had time to form are own conclusions before we got inside her head and she’s still acting on them whereas cat is dead and judging Alive cat based on the actions of a vengeance zombie would be unfair. 
 

There’s a lot to go over but I’ll go for the one I think Cersei and cat are the exact same in and that’s their love for their children. Now I do think they do both love their children yes Cersei does indeed think about others besides herself, 

Anyways they both say they love their children but they seem to do things counter to those interests. Cat deadass abandons rickon in favor to play war advisor in her sons council, as much as she says how her children are her world o find it hard to believe the women who was incapable of functioning after bran fell would just leave her son. Say to herself “it can’t come to war” and then ten seconds later she gave Tywin an excuse to go to war, then when she’s aware of her sons precarious situation thinks it’s a good idea to alienate northern bannermen on the spitball chance the Lannister’s who arnt famous for their honor or fair play release Jamie on the once again off chance they trade for Sansa. No ones arguing she’s a perfect person or mother but in light of Cersei’s I’m calling them crimes for hyperbole cuddling her kids what cat does is kinda suspect. 
 

there’s so much more but I figure it’d be easier to wait for the respectful disagreement and opinions of cat. 
 

also I do think they’re both interesting characters and trick of perspective and context is really interesting and I applaud George for crafting such a compelling dynamic and characters 

 

[Angel Eyes]

Not really sure if Catelyn would be better off if she decided to go back to Winterfell. Theon went to Pyke despite her counsel against it and I'm not really sure if Catelyn would fare any better against the Ironborn than Bran did. Plus if she was still around when Ramsay came with his relief force he might have tried to have his way with her as he did Donella Hornwood

[The Commentator]

Cersei murdered her childhood friend.  Her character flaws are more extreme.  Catelyn was hateful and hostile towards Jon Snow.  We should definitely call her out on that one.  But bear in mind, Cersei would have done worse to her husband's illegitimate children.   They are both upper class women and mothers.  It's how they handled those roles where they are different. 

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Cersei murdered her childhood friend.  Her character flaws are more extreme.  Catelyn was hateful and hostile towards Jon Snow.  We should definitely call her out on that one.  But bear in mind, Cersei would have done worse to her husband's illegitimate children.   They are both upper class women and mothers.  It's how they handled those roles where they are different. 

She did do worse than Catelyn, she actually ordered their deaths.

[Mourning Star]

24 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Cersei murdered her childhood friend.  Her character flaws are more extreme.  Catelyn was hateful and hostile towards Jon Snow.  We should definitely call her out on that one.  But bear in mind, Cersei would have done worse to her husband's illegitimate children.   They are both upper class women and mothers.  It's how they handled those roles where they are different. 

Cersei is much more extreme and less sympathetic than Cat, although I agree the parallels are too abundant to be entirely coincedental.

One comparison here, for me, is between Cersei pushing Melara down a well (because she liked Jaime?) to Cat and Petyr. Cat doesn't stop the duel, but she does ask Brandon not to kill him. And Petyr ends up pushing Lysa out the Moon Door.

Melara Heatherspoon and Petyr Baelish make a nice parallel, and while I'm not a believer in the ends justifying the means, it does beg the question, would the world have been better off if Cat had let Brandon kill Petyr.

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Cersei is much more extreme and less sympathetic than Cat, although I agree the parallels are too abundant to be entirely coincedental.

One comparison here, for me, is between Cersei pushing Melara down a well (because she liked Jaime?) to Cat and Petyr. Cat doesn't stop the duel, but she does ask Brandon not to kill him. And Petyr ends up pushing Lysa out the Moon Door.

Melara Heatherspoon and Petyr Baelish make a nice parallel, and while I'm not a believer in the ends justifying the means, it does beg the question, would the world have been better off if Cat had let Brandon kill Petyr.

2/3 plots would still happen:

• the White Walkers, wildlings, and Night's Watch would still be fighting
• Viserys would still be trying to get back to Westeros using Daenerys as his pawn, Robert orders her death, Viserys takes the Gold Bucket Challenge, the poisoned wine is botched, Drogo dies, Daenerys hatches dragons, etc.

Petyr would have little bearing on those plots.

You know all this talk about Petyr challenging Brandon makes me think back to a fanfic idea where Lord Stark had another ward at Winterfell who challenged Joffrey for Sansa's hand...

[James Steller]

Here’s another similarity; they both resent their younger brothers.

Edmure and Tyrion are among the most competent lords in the Seven Kingdoms, albeit flawed. They both have egos about their own abilities which stems from a sense of insecurity. Cat and Cers both see the worst in every one of their brothers’ actions and constantly antagonize them even when they don’t deserve it. Given the fact that Catelyn was raised as heir for a while and given that Cersei always thought she deserved to be heir, I see a slight similarity in how they must be frustrated by the patriarchy of Westeros. They both feel they could rule in their own right, but they’re getting passed over by their snot nosed kid brothers (this is an exaggeration, obviously, but I can’t help seeing a grain of that in both Cersei and Catelyn).

[Angel Eyes]

21 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Here’s another similarity; they both resent their younger brothers.

Edmure and Tyrion are among the most competent lords in the Seven Kingdoms, albeit flawed. They both have egos about their own abilities which stems from a sense of insecurity. Cat and Cers both see the worst in every one of their brothers’ actions and constantly antagonize them even when they don’t deserve it. Given the fact that Catelyn was raised as heir for a while and given that Cersei always thought she deserved to be heir, I see a slight similarity in how they must be frustrated by the patriarchy of Westeros. They both feel they could rule in their own right, but they’re getting passed over by their snot nosed kid brothers (this is an exaggeration, obviously, but I can’t help seeing a grain of that in both Cersei and Catelyn).

Here's a thread for discussing Mirror and Foil Characters.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Here's a thread for discussing Mirror and Foil Characters.

As opposed to this thread?

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

As opposed to this thread?

I thought this thread was focused on Cersei and Catelyn.

[James Steller]

24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought this thread was focused on Cersei and Catelyn.

Edmure and Tyrion are very important to their sisters’ personalities. Look at the similarities and differences in how they deal with their brothers.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, RedDragon said:

Tldr she’s not that much better if at all.

Yeah she is. 

 

2 hours ago, RedDragon said:

We knew as the story progressed and as she acts why she did those things right or wrong we are predisposed to believing her. 

Why should not we believe her?? Are her actions in contradiction with her thoughts or what??

 

2 hours ago, RedDragon said:

whereas with Cersei we’ve had time to form are own conclusions before we got inside her head and she’s still acting on them whereas cat is dead and judging Alive cat based on the actions of a vengeance zombie would be unfair. 

Sure but when you go around ordering the murder of literal babies is really hard to come back from that.

 

2 hours ago, RedDragon said:

There’s a lot to go over but I’ll go for the one I think Cersei and cat are the exact same in and that’s their love for their children. Now I do think they do both love their children yes Cersei does indeed think about others besides herself, Varys even brought(in game of thrones before he was beheaded, I use audio books so I apologize for the lack of quotes) up how he believes she does truly care more about jeofferys well being than her own, you can argue about how good of a mother she is but without a doubt she does lover her children. 

I do think she loves Joffrey, I kinda feel like she loves Myrcella.

I don't see at all how does she loves Tommen, she's literal poison to the child and it seems more to me that she loves what Tommen represents and unlocks, power, than she loves the boy.

 

 

2 hours ago, RedDragon said:

Anyways they both say they love their children but they seem to do things counter to those interests. Cat deadass abandons rickon in favor to play war advisor in her sons council,

She doesn't abandon him and Robb's actually holding the fate of his family on his hands. Soon after that, Theon betrays the Starks and Balon cuts them off Winterfell.

 

2 hours ago, RedDragon said:

Say to herself “it can’t come to war” and then ten seconds later she gave Tywin an excuse to go to war, then when she’s aware of her sons precarious situation thinks it’s a good idea to alienate northern bannermen on the spitball chance the Lannister’s who arnt famous for their honor or fair play release Jamie on the once again off chance they trade for Sansa. No ones arguing she’s a perfect person or mother but in light of Cersei’s I’m calling them crimes for hyperbole cuddling her kids what cat does is kinda suspect. 

- She believed that Tyrion would spill the beans if he went to KL so she had him as hostage.

- I don't know how could she foresee the events of KL, without that, Tywin is sittong at Casterly Rock forever.

- She actually liberated Tywin in a desperate attempt to get her daughters back.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Here’s another similarity; they both resent their younger brothers.

No, Cat doesn't resent her younger brother.

She has her doubts at times, like the rest of her family but Cat doesn't resent him.

 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Edmure and Tyrion are among the most competent lords in the Seven Kingdoms, albeit flawed.

In what sense?? Edmure is cool dude and has a heart of gold... But the man was destroyed by Tywin and Jaime in AGOT... because Edmure is not very bright there.

 

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Edmure and Tyrion are very important to their sisters’ personalities.

Not really, Cat's not really concerned with having been the heir for a while, nor she thinks he's going to kill her.

I don't know how is he more important than Lysa.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

In what sense?? Edmure is cool dude and has a heart of gold... But the man was destroyed by Tywin and Jaime in AGOT... because Edmure is not very bright there.

To be fair there wasn't much anybody could have done. Confronting the power of the fully armed and operational Westerlands head on would have resulted in a defeat regardless

[James Steller]

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, Cat doesn't resent her younger brother.

She has her doubts at times, like the rest of her family but Cat doesn't resent him.

Go back to the first two books. Literally every single time she interacts with Edmure or even thinks of him, she’s being at best, critical, and at worst, outright nasty. I see similar resentment there to the way she sees no good in Jon Snow. She hates that she’s expected to be faithful to her family and Jon represents Eddard’s failure to do the same. She also feels like she was her father’s favourite and thus hates that she could have led the Riverlands if it wasn’t for the fact that she was a woman in a patriarchal society and the fact that she has a younger brother who (in her eyes, anyway) is not deserving of his responsibilities. And if she doesn’t resent him on those grounds, then it’s almost insane how hostile she is with him. I can’t think of a better reason for Catelyn’s attitude towards her younger brother. Even when she’s aware that she’s being harsh and unfair to him, she still can’t change her ways. 

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

In what sense?? Edmure is cool dude and has a heart of gold... But the man was destroyed by Tywin and Jaime in AGOT... because Edmure is not very bright there.

 

12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To be fair there wasn't much anybody could have done. Confronting the power of the fully armed and operational Westerlands head on would have resulted in a defeat regardless

I’d also add that Edmure is the only person in the entire series to engage Tywin Lannister himself in battle and win. That’s not projection either. Edmure mounted a very effective defence of the crossings despite being outnumbered, he did a lord’s duty by providing shelter to the smallfolk of the area, and he objectively achieved his goal: stop Tywin from crossing the fords. He did that. Tywin gave up and left. Sure, it wasn’t a complete victory, and sure, in the grand scheme of things, it was a bad outcome, but Edmure and Tywin were both facing off in good faith, for lack of a better term. Both men were trying to stop each other’s goals, and Tywin was unsuccessful. 
And again, Edmure actually cares about the people he’s supposed to rule. Much as I love Stannis, he needed to be reminded of what his responsibilities were, and that he had to prove his worthiness by protecting the people. Edmure never needed such an arc, he was always mindful of the people’s plight. That’s what proved his undoing the first time; Tywin tricked him by sending raiders after civilian populations out of the blue and invaded with a massive force when Edmure wasn’t expecting such an assault.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To be fair there wasn't much anybody could have done. Confronting the power of the fully armed and operational Westerlands head on would have resulted in a defeat regardless

The Westerlands and the Riverlands have similar manpower, they both have veterans and if they were led by a proper  commander , which Edmure was not at the time, Tywin would not have been sitting at Harrenhall while his son was besieging Riverrun in like a month after the fighting started.

Edmure  beats Tywin good, to his eternal shame, in the fords because he actually thinks things through and i very much doubt that Tywin would be as bold to go head on against a fully operational Hoster. Then again, i doubt Hoster cultivated as much good will as Edmure did.

 

 

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Go back to the first two books. Literally every single time she interacts with Edmure or even thinks of him, she’s being at best, critical, and at worst, outright nasty.

 

Quote

Catelyn's bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place.

 

Quote

"The Kingslayer is massing a host at Casterly Rock," Ser Rodrik Cassel answered from the room behind her. "Your brother writes that he has sent riders to the Rock, demanding that Lord Tywin proclaim his intent, but he has had no answer. Edmure has commanded Lord Vance and Lord Piper to guard the pass below the Golden Tooth. He vows to you that he will yield no foot of Tully land without first watering it with Lannister blood."
Catelyn turned away from the sunrise. Its beauty did little to lighten her mood; it seemed cruel for a day to dawn so fair and end so foul as this one promised to. "Edmure has sent riders and made vows," she said, "but Edmure is not the Lord of Riverrun. What of my lord father?"

 

Quote

He rubbed his stubbled jaw, suddenly awkward. "Yes." His chin hairs were redder than the ones on his head.
"I like it." Catelyn stroked the wolf's head, gently. "It makes you look like my brother Edmure." Grey Wind nipped at her fingers, playful, and trotted back to his place by the fire.

 

Quote

She feared for her lord father, and wondered at his ominous silence. She feared for her brother Edmure, and prayed that the gods would watch over him if he must face the Kingslayer in battle. She feared for Ned and her girls, and for the sweet sons she had left behind at Winterfell. And yet there was nothing she could do for any of them, and so she made herself put all thought of them aside. You must save your strength for Robb, she told herself. He is the only one you can help. You must be as fierce and hard as the north, Catelyn Tully. You must be a Stark for true now, like your son.

 

 

Quote

"It is not your sword I want, ser," she told him. "Give me my father and my brother Edmure. Give me my daughters. Give me my lord husband."

 

Quote

Edmure came down the steps to embrace her. "Sweet sister," he murmured hoarsely. He had deep blue eyes and a mouth made for smiles, but he was not smiling now. He looked worn and tired, battered by battle and haggard from strain. His neck was bandaged where he had taken a wound. Catelyn hugged him fiercely.
"Your grief is mine, Cat," he said when they broke apart. "When we heard about Lord Eddard … the Lannisters will pay, I swear it, you will have your vengeance."

 

 

Quote

Edmure's look was somber. "He will not be with us long, the maesters say. The pain is … constant, and grievous."
A blind rage filled her, a rage at all the world; at her brother Edmure and her sister Lysa, at the Lannisters, at the maesters, at Ned and her father and the monstrous gods who would take them both away from her. "You should have told me," she said. "You should have sent word as soon as you knew."
"He forbade it. He did not want his enemies to know that he was dying. With the realm so troubled, he feared that if the Lannisters suspected how frail he was …"

 

Quote

Edmure persisted. "Do we grow stronger sitting here? Our host dwindles every day."
"And whose doing is that?" Catelyn snapped at her brother. It had been at Edmure's insistence that Robb had given the river lords leave to depart after his crowning, each to defend his own lands. Ser Marq Piper and Lord Karyl Vance had been the first to go. Lord Jonos Bracken had followed, vowing to reclaim the burnt shell of his castle and bury his dead, and now Lord Jason Mallister had announced his intent to return to his seat at Seagard, still mercifully untouched by the fighting.

 

 

Quote

Grey Wind growled, as if he sensed Robb's anger, and Edmure Tully put a brotherly hand on Catelyn's shoulder. "Cat, don't. The boy has the right of this."

"Don't call me the boy," Robb said, rounding on his uncle, his anger spilling out all at once on poor Edmure, who had only meant to support him. "I'm almost a man grown, and a king—your king, ser. And I don't fear Jaime Lannister. I defeated him once, I'll defeat him again if I must, only . . ." He pushed a fall of hair out of his eyes and gave a shake of the head. "I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but . . ."

". . . but not for the girls?" Her voice was icy quiet. "Girls are not important enough, are they?"

 

This is only a small sample.  If you want to see all of them... Cat does act out sometimes, but it's not because of resentment or any of such things, there's a say in spanish that translated would be something like "trust sucks",  Cat suffers the same disease  Brynden has,  they simply cannot see Edmure as lord, he's a little brother or a little nephew, as such, and giving Robb's towering figure, he's scolded many times, but as someone would to their baby brother, not as... well, Cersei would do to Tyrion.

 

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I see similar resentment there to the way she sees no good in Jon Snow.

Hmm, you're seeing what you want to see and missremembering.

 

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

She also feels like she was her father’s favourite and thus hates that she could have led the Riverlands if it wasn’t for the fact that she was a woman in a patriarchal society and the fact that she has a younger brother who in her eyes is not deserving of his responsibilities.

Nope, this is made up. You're literally just giving her Cersei's characterization just because. 

 

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And if she doesn’t resent him on those grounds, then it’s almost insane how hostile she is with him. I can’t think of a better reason.

Well, we're giving better reasons, do you think Brynden is hostile to him because he wanted to take over Riverrun?? Or because he's seeing his nephew's, not his Lord's a liege's,  screwing things up??

 

 

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I’d also add that Edmure is the only person in the entire series to engage Tywin Lannister himself in battle and win.

That it's true but that's just shame on Tywin.

 

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

That’s what proved his undoing the first time; Tywin tricked him by sending raiders after civilian populations out of the blue and invaded with a massive force when Edmure wasn’t expecting such an assault.

He was expecting that assault, he was simply too golden hearted to actually put his resources in a choke point to bleed Tywin dry as he was doing in the Fords.

He scattered his forces so thinly trying to protect every settlement of the Riverlands that Tywin had a field day. 

Ned knows what's Tywin's endgame and what would be Edmure's mistake and he was pretty much right.

 

Quote

Littlefinger stroked the point of his beard thoughtfully. “And if they come again, ser?” “If they come again, we’ll use their blood to water the fields they burnt,” Ser Marq Piper declared hotly. “Ser Edmure has sent men to every village and holdfast within a day’s ride of the border,” Ser Karyl explained. “The next raider will not have such an easy time of it.” And that may be precisely what Lord Tywin wants, Ned thought to himself, to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords. His wife’s brother was young, and more gallant than wise. He would try to hold every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman, and child who named him lord, and Tywin Lannister was shrewd enough to know that.

 

Quote

“How is your war going?” His uncle answered. “Well enough, for the nonce. Ser Edmure had scattered small troops of men along his borders to stop our raiding, and your lord father and I were able to destroy most of them piecemeal before they could regroup.” “Your brother has been covering himself with glory,” his father said. “He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds.” “Your father and I have been marching on each in turn,” Ser Kevan said. “With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens …”

 

[Frey family reunion]

They're both psychotically protective of their offspring.

[RedDragon]

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yeah she is. 

That’s like, your opinion man. The only thing in my view that stops her from ordering Jon dead or to abdomen him that he might as well be is ned. In my view. It’s literally just how I see it. 
 

I went to great lengths to explain why I see that her actions are different than her motives. So yeah. They are 

“how could she have predicted what would happen in kl” 

The point is that capturing Tyrion is hands down a bad move no matter the reason and contradictory to her own stated thoughts. 
“war can’t happen, riverrun is in danger” 

**takes Tyrion, is the direct cause for conflict** 

If she knows about Tywin. And she knows the starks and lannisters are coming to blows. Giving your enemy a casus beli to attack you, is a dumb move irrespective of what precisely is happening in kings landing. 
 

timing is everything and she blew it on a rash decision. 

“She doesn’t abandon them” 

yes. She does.
catlyn is smart but she’s not a battle commander and her patent “just listen to me I’m right” negotiating style is not really suited for good diplomacy. He constant holier than tho attitude and Ik what’s best leadership style has lead her to alienate Rob, the northern lords, and maybe edmure 

Not seeing them again and staying in the south is abandoning. Full stop. Rickon is a toddler, are you gonna leave your toddler? Not even gonna go it him? The point of that isn’t to look at the causality of the books with the benefit of hindsight, I’m putting myself in her shoes at the time and if I loved my kids as much as cat says she does I would not leave my god darn toddler alone for what half a year? That is the point 

 

Cersei being poison to her children is not at all the point. You want me to take catlyn words at face value you have to take Cersei. I didn’t say she was a good mother, I said she professes love for her children.

 

”he was gonna spill the beans she was there”

 

ooo spill the beans that she was in the riverlands. Where shes from. Better start a war early for that. 

 

also you mentioned Tywin in this part in reference to liberating him, idk if that’s a mistake on my or your part but she let Jamie free not Tywin. 
 

i guess more on Cersei, yeah she’s a bad person who ordered the murder of babies but as we saw with jingle bells and neds inner monologue killing people hardly related to her children’s safety is no real concern.