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The differences and similarities between Cersei and Catelyn


Alyn Oakenfist

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21 minutes ago, frenin said:

The Westerlands and the Riverlands have similar manpower, they both have veterans and if they were led by a proper  commander , which Edmure was not at the time, Tywin would not have been sitting at Harrenhall while his son was besieging Riverrun in like a month after the fighting started.

Edmure  beats Tywin good, to his eternal shame, in the fords because he actually thinks things through and i very much doubt that Tywin would be as bold to go head on against a fully operational Hoster. Then again, i doubt Hoster cultivated as much good will as Edmure did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is only a small sample.  If you want to see all of them... Cat does act out sometimes, but it's not because of resentment or any of such things, there's a say in spanish that translated would be something like "trust sucks",  Cat suffers the same disease  Brynden has,  they simply cannot see Edmure as lord, he's a little brother or a little nephew, as such, and giving Robb's towering figure, he's scolded many times, but as someone would to their baby brother, not as... well, Cersei would do to Tyrion.

 

Hmm, you're seeing what you want to see and missremembering.

 

Nope, this is made up. You're literally just giving her Cersei's characterization just because. 

 

Well, we're giving better reasons, do you think Brynden is hostile to him because he wanted to take over Riverrun?? Or because he's seeing his nephew's, not his Lord's a liege's,  screwing things up??

 

 

That it's true but that's just shame on Tywin.

 

He was expecting that assault, he was simply too golden hearted to actually put his resources in a choke point to bleed Tywin dry as he was doing in the Fords.

He scattered his forces so thinly trying to protect every settlement of the Riverlands that Tywin had a field day. 

Ned knows what's Tywin's endgame and what would be Edmure's mistake and he was pretty much right.

 

 

 

Those quotes arnt so much in your favor as I believe you think they are. You can quote things but you kinda gotta explain what they mean and how you came to that conclusion. George is really good at being obtuse so just posting them doesn’t do much imo. 
 

idk if “trust sucks”is the full translation of that saying but cats problem isn’t that she trusts too much it’s that she trusts too little and respects others too little. Every time she talks to edmure she acts like his mom a mean one at that. You attract more flies with honey as the English saying goes and catlyn stark prefers a sword swing. She’s really good at demanding Curtesy at least in her inner monologue and getting consideration for her situation but god forbid she gives some of it back. 
 

she’d rather lash out at edmure when he’s in a Similar situation to her, being married off against his wishes for political gain but instead of a kind word and advice she just tells him to suck it up 

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42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

That’s like, your opinion man. The only thing in my view that stops her from ordering Jon dead or to abdomen him that he might as well be is ned. In my view. It’s literally just how I see it. 

Has Cat ever expressed murderous intent towards Jon?? The two things she wants is him off her sight and him non threatening her son's inheritance. At no point she had wanted to kill him,

I can tell is how you see it, i'm just arguing it doesn't make much sense.

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

The point is that capturing Tyrion is hands down a bad move no matter the reason and contradictory to her own stated thoughts. 
“war can’t happen, riverrun is in danger” 

**takes Tyrion, is the direct cause for conflict** 

I know what the point is, Cat thought that capturing Tyrion was the good move given her own limited data, she hoped that war did not happen, she no longer has that thought when Tyrion sees her.  

 

Quote

“Nothing would be more likely to ruin my supper,” the dwarf said dryly. His mismatched eyes considered the singer briefly, started to move away … and found Catelyn. He looked at her for a moment, puzzled. She turned her face away, but too late. The dwarf was smiling. “Lady Stark, what an unexpected pleasure,” he said. “I was sorry to miss you at Winterfell.” Marillion gaped at her, confusion giving way to chagrin as Catelyn rose slowly to her feet. She heard Ser Rodrik curse. If only the man had lingered at the Wall, she thought, if only...

You talk as if plans do not change or context was irrelevant. 

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

If she knows about Tywin. And she knows the starks and lannisters are coming to blows. Giving your enemy a casus beli to attack you, is a dumb move irrespective of what precisely is happening in kings landing. 

Tywin can't attack her. There is a reason why Tywin sends bannerless "brigands" to raid the Riverlands, she's trying to gain time and a hostage to use against the Lannisters.

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

yes. She does.
catlyn is smart but she’s not a battle commander and her patent “just listen to me I’m right” negotiating style is not really suited for good diplomacy. He constant holier than tho attitude and Ik what’s best leadership style has lead her to alienate Rob, the northern lords, and maybe edmure 

No, she doesn't. Cat is helpful and is an actual asset to Robb until the news of the "deaths" of Bran and Ricko came to her, she's the one negotiating with the Freys, she's the one negotiating counseling Robb in AGOT, she's the one urging Robb to get the girls back, and Robb did see the wisdom in that too little to late. Etc etc.

She doesn't really alienate Robb, the northern lords or Edmure. But ok.

 

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

Not seeing them again and staying in the south is abandoning. Full stop. Rickon is a toddler, are you gonna leave your toddler? Not even gonna go it him? The point of that isn’t to look at the causality of the books with the benefit of hindsight, I’m putting myself in her shoes at the time and if I loved my kids as much as cat says she does I would not leave my god darn toddler alone for what half a year? That is the point 

It's a bad point, she felt that Robb needed her more, and he kinda did, she did not expect to never see their children again,  saying that she's abandoning them is absurd. Full stop.

If the world revolved around what you would do, then you may have a point, but what you would do is inmaterial forwhether Cat was right or not.

 

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

Cersei being poison to her children is not at all the point. You want me to take catlyn words at face value you have to take Cersei. I didn’t say she was a good mother, I said she professes love for her children.

Yeah and Martin himself has put into question that kind of love.

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

ooo spill the beans that she was in the riverlands. Where shes from. Better start a war early for that. 

Travelling incognito in the south is not a good sign, especially when you believe some people are conspiring against you. 

 

42 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

i guess more on Cersei, yeah she’s a bad person who ordered the murder of babies but as we saw with jingle bells and neds inner monologue killing people hardly related to her children’s safety is no real concern. 

I don't really understand this.

 

25 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

Those quotes arnt so much in your favor as I believe you think they are. You can quote things but you kinda gotta explain what they mean and how you came to that conclusion. George is really good at being obtuse so just posting them doesn’t do much imo. 

Being obtuse with straight forward words and thoughts?? Sometimes black is black and white is white.

 

26 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

idk if “trust sucks”is the full translation of that saying but cats problem isn’t that she trusts too much it’s that she trusts too little and respects others too little. Every time she talks to edmure she acts like his mom a mean one at that. You attract more flies with honey as the English saying goes and catlyn stark prefers a sword swing. She’s really good at demanding Curtesy at least in her inner monologue and getting consideration for her situation but god forbid she gives some of it back. 

The meaning is that trust can easily let to overstepping boundaries, Cat doesn't see Edmure as a Lord, she still sees him as her younger brother and treats him as such.

The rest is just you ranting so i don't really see the point in engaging.

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20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Has Cat ever expressed murderous intent towards Jon?? The two things she wants is him off her sight and him non threatening her son's inheritance. At no point she had wanted to kill him,

I apologize I had the books via audiobook so it’s hard to dig up specific quotes but it is implied she would kill Jon of her children were at risk. It happened in agot when ned is talking to Cersei. She asks if he loved his kids and what he would do to protect them and he thinks to himself what would he do if it was robs life against some unknown then he goes on to wonder what cat would do and dismisses it cause he didn’t want to think about what the answer means. 

It’s also implied and most agree that cat saw Jon as a threat to her children cause she’s blind and bias so I don’t see why she wouldn’t find a way to have him killed probably by just leaving him to die cause she is a tully and it’s classier to leave a child to die in the woods then it is to kill them 

you then have the very first cat chapter where ned calls her cruel for wanting to kick a boy out when he’d probably die if they do that so yes I think there’s enough contextual evidence to support that. I also didn’t fail to notice you didn’t mention her killing a simpleton for no other reason than he had frey for a last name so that’s a general win thank you. 
 

if by ranting you mean I have my own reasoning to not like a complex character that you don’t agree with  then yes. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, RedDragon said:

I also didn’t fail to notice you didn’t mention her killing a simpleton for no other reason than he had frey for a last name so that’s a general win thank you. 

Thing is, Cat's sanity was gone by that point. She was already dead before the blade even touched her neck

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34 minutes ago, frenin said:

Being obtuse with straight forward words and thoughts?? Sometimes black is black and white is white.

Did you learn to write essays or provide evidence? Cause that’s literally not true 

you gotta prove they’re straight forward and what they mean. That’s essay writing 101. Sorry that’s how evidence work, people can have 10 interpretations of the same sentence once context as deep as asoiaf is involved. 

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4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Thing is, Cat's sanity was gone by that point. She was already dead before the blade even touched her neck

Yeah I agree. It was the weakest part of my argument,  it was a downward spiral since at the very least neds death. But that can be argued 

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33 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

I apologize I had the books via audiobook so it’s hard to dig up specific quotes but it is implied she would kill Jon of her children were at risk. It happened in agot when ned is talking to Cersei. She asks if he loved his kids and what he would do to protect them and he thinks to himself what would he do if it was robs life against some unknown then he goes on to wonder what cat would do and dismisses it cause he didn’t want to think about what the answer means. 

It's implied that Ned would kill children if his own were at risk. I don't know how  that's a prove of Ned wanting to kill children on regular basis, almost any parent would kill a random kid to save his own, that's exactly the point of Ned's thoughts.

 

35 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

It’s also implied and most agree that cat saw Jon as a threat to her children cause she’s blind and bias so I don’t see why she wouldn’t find a way to have him killed probably by just leaving him to die cause she is a tully and it’s classier to leave a child to die in the woods then it is to kill them 

Because she doesn't need to kill him.

Like she's happy with him being at the wall.

 

Quote

[...]His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

 

38 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

you then have the very first cat chapter where ned calls her cruel for wanting to kick a boy out when he’d probably die if they do that so yes I think there’s enough contextual evidence to support that. I also didn’t fail to notice you didn’t mention her killing a simpleton for no other reason than he had frey for a last name so that’s a general win thank you. 

What the?? 

  1. Cat wants Jon either out of Winterfell or with Ned in King's Landing. 
    Quote

    “Jon must go,” she said now. “He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …” “He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell. The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.” Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.” “And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

     

  2. Why the hell would Jon die if he's kicked out??
  3. What's the correlation between Jon and the simpleton named Frey?? Is Jon a simpleton?? Is Jon a secret seed of Walder's??

 

I don't even know what win you're talking about, but as long as you're happy...

 

 

38 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

Did you learn to write essays or provide evidence? Cause that’s literally not true 

you gotta prove they’re straight forward and what they mean. That’s essay writing 101. Sorry that’s how evidence work, people can have 10 interpretations of the same sentence once context as deep as asoiaf is involved. 

Hmmm ok. If you're happy with that.

 

46 minutes ago, RedDragon said:

if by ranting you mean I have my own reasoning to not like a complex character that you don’t agree with  then yes. 

Yes, when you tell me that Cat was itching to kill Jon and Ned was the only thing stopping her, yes, i know you're ranting.

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Similarities:  Their names both begin with C.  I think that is about it.

Differences:

Catelyn has a good relationship with her family.  Cersei doesn't.  Catelyn has been high-handed toward Edmure, but she clearly loves and respects him.  And she definitely gets along well with her father and her uncle Brynden.  and the difficulties she has with Lysa are due to Lysa's mental instability, not anything Catelyn does.

Cersei, on the other hand, is fucking one brother and trying to kill the other one, who she had previously plotted against.

 

Catelyn has raised a brood of solid citizens.  If I were a parent, I would be happy having any of the Stark kids as a child's friend.  While flawed, they are decent people with a fairly good moral compass.  (Arya's difficulties stem from her experiences during the war, not from her upbringing.  In fact, her Stark/Tully upbringing has probably kept her from going down an even darker road than the one she is on, and will keep her from going to the end of that one.)

Cersei has enabled Joffrey's stupidity and cruelty, and is probably at least in part responsible for it.  Kevan certainly thought she did a bad job, which is why he wanted to take Tommen away.  As to Tommen, Cersei has been quite cruel to him of late.

 

Catelyn is politically astute.  She has made mistakes of emotion, but her political instincts while advising Robb, in particular, have been quite good.  Cersei, on the other hand, is a political dunce.  She isn't nearly as smart as she thinks she is, and makes dumb decision after dumb decision in Feast.

 

Cersei openly threatened to kill Robert's bastard if he brought her to KL.  She has also had at least one bastard killed, and tried to kill another (Gendry).  Catelyn acquiesced to her husband's bastard being present, although she ignored him, and refused to allow him to stay with Ned gone.  His joining the Nights Watch made the issue moot, though.

Essentially, Catelyn is a decent, if flawed person whose death saddened me.  And her current state isn't good either.  Cersei is a nasty, narcissistic, vilely evil person whose death I will probably celebrate

 

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On 11/2/2020 at 1:49 PM, Mourning Star said:

Cersei is much more extreme and less sympathetic than Cat, although I agree the parallels are too abundant to be entirely coincedental.

One comparison here, for me, is between Cersei pushing Melara down a well (because she liked Jaime?) to Cat and Petyr. Cat doesn't stop the duel, but she does ask Brandon not to kill him. And Petyr ends up pushing Lysa out the Moon Door.

Melara Heatherspoon and Petyr Baelish make a nice parallel, and while I'm not a believer in the ends justifying the means, it does beg the question, would the world have been better off if Cat had let Brandon kill Petyr.

The younger characters needed time and challenges on their way to adulthood.  This is the coming of age part of the story.  

Petyr in his own way also needed to grow up.  The humiliation and possible abortion of his child were significant moments in his life.  He made it his mission to take down the families who were responsible for his humiliation.

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