Literary parallels: Littlefinger and Judge Turpin

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So continuing the trend of characters and plot points so similar that there is no way GRRM didn't intentionally steal them, today we have Judge Turpin from Sweeney Todd and Littlefinger. If you never saw the movie Sweeney Todd (you deffo should, it's one of the best musicals ever), Judge Turpin is the main antagonist of the series.

- Judge Turpin is obsessively infatuated with a certain woman, called Lucy, who however doesn't share his feelings and marries another. So far it's a very common plot point, so not much to it

- Acting on his sick infatuation Turpin frames Lucy's husband for treason and has him removed from the stage. Already sounding similar? Tbf in Sweeney Todd, Lucy's husband, the titular Sweeney Todd is just exiled to Australia, the Empire's penal colony, as opposed to the Nights Watch were Ned was supposed to be sent to.

- Following the fallout of that decision, Lucy eventually goes mad with grief and ends up getting killed by neck slitting. At this point the coincidences are starting to be a bit too much.

- However through all of this, Lucy has a daughter, called Joanna, who is said to be the perfect image of her mother. After she loses her parents, Littlefinger, I mean Turpin takes her in under his wing. However due to the similarities he soon develops a sexual obsession with her, constantly grooming her for marriage.

Yeah no way this is a coincidence, and from this we can be certain that the show at least got right that LF dies by neck slitting.

[James Steller]

55 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So continuing the trend of characters and plot points so similar that there is no way GRRM didn't intentionally steal them, today we have Judge Turpin from Sweeney Todd and Littlefinger. If you never saw the movie Sweeney Todd (you deffo should, it's one of the best musicals ever), Judge Turpin is the main antagonist of the series.

- Judge Turpin is obsessively infatuated with a certain woman, called Lucy, who however doesn't share his feelings and marries another. So far it's a very common plot point, so not much to it

- Acting on his sick infatuation Turpin frames Lucy's husband for treason and has him removed from the stage. Already sounding similar? Tbf in Sweeney Todd, Lucy's husband, the titular Sweeney Todd is just exiled to Australia, the Empire's penal colony, as opposed to the Nights Watch were Ned was supposed to be sent to.

- Following the fallout of that decision, Lucy eventually goes mad with grief and ends up getting killed by neck slitting. At this point the coincidences are starting to be a bit too much.

- However through all of this, Lucy has a daughter, called Joanna, who is said to be the perfect image of her mother. After she loses her parents, Littlefinger, I mean Turpin takes her in under his wing. However due to the similarities he soon develops a sexual obsession with her, constantly grooming her for marriage.

Yeah no way this is a coincidence, and from this we can be certain that the show at least got right that LF dies by neck slitting.

The abomination got very little “right” about any of the characters’ fates. I don’t want to go into why on a forum about the books.

I agree with your other points though.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So continuing the trend of characters and plot points so similar that there is no way GRRM didn't intentionally steal them, today we have Judge Turpin from Sweeney Todd and Littlefinger. If you never saw the movie Sweeney Todd (you deffo should, it's one of the best musicals ever), Judge Turpin is the main antagonist of the series.

- Judge Turpin is obsessively infatuated with a certain woman, called Lucy, who however doesn't share his feelings and marries another. So far it's a very common plot point, so not much to it

- Acting on his sick infatuation Turpin frames Lucy's husband for treason and has him removed from the stage. Already sounding similar? Tbf in Sweeney Todd, Lucy's husband, the titular Sweeney Todd is just exiled to Australia, the Empire's penal colony, as opposed to the Nights Watch were Ned was supposed to be sent to.

- Following the fallout of that decision, Lucy eventually goes mad with grief and ends up getting killed by neck slitting. At this point the coincidences are starting to be a bit too much.

- However through all of this, Lucy has a daughter, called Joanna, who is said to be the perfect image of her mother. After she loses her parents, Littlefinger, I mean Turpin takes her in under his wing. However due to the similarities he soon develops a sexual obsession with her, constantly grooming her for marriage.

Yeah no way this is a coincidence, and from this we can be certain that the show at least got right that LF dies by neck slitting.

Interestingly, Arya could end up playing the role of Sweeny Todd in that she might be the one to bring Littlefinger down (though Wyman's the one who ended up baking people in pies). Either that or Sansa does it herself. 

[Angel Eyes]

The big crossover comparison for Littlefinger in my mind is Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. He's on the low end of the totem pole at the beginning of his life and grows up with the children of a wealthier family (Earnshaws/Tullys). He develops an affection for the daughter of this patriarch (Catherine Earnshaw (I) and Catelyn) and is in turn disliked by the girl's brother. The daughter is promised to a boy of equal social standing with herself (Edgar Linton/Brandon, later Eddard Stark), so Heathcliff/Littlefinger leaves the family he grew up with and spends several years acquiring wealth through unscrupulous means before taking his revenge on the family that slighted him by receiving their lands and gaining power of the daughter of the woman he loved. One of the big differences between them is that Heathcliff has no sexual desire for Catherine (II) and mostly views her as a pawn to lord over Edgar.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Interestingly, Arya could end up playing the role of Sweeny Todd in that she might be the one to bring Littlefinger down (though Wyman's the one who ended up baking people in pies). Either that or Sansa does it herself. 

Can't believe I made a thread about Sweeney Todd and failed to notice the human pies.

Also it could also be Stoenhart that kills him eventually, fits better with the parallel of the vengeful altered parent coming back to claim vengeance.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Can't believe I made a thread about Sweeney Todd and failed to notice the human pies.

Also it could also be Stoenhart that kills him eventually, fits better with the parallel of the vengeful altered parent coming back to claim vengeance.

I'd love nothing more than to see Littlefinger killed by Lady Stoneheart (the sheer horror he'd be feeling would be worth reading such a scene), but I don't see how Littlefinger and Stoneheart are ever going to be in the same room. And while I don't want to rely on that abomination for any hints as to what's going to happen, I do have a feeling that Sansa and/or Arya will be Littlefinger's undoing somehow.

[Bronn Urgandy]

7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The big crossover comparison for Littlefinger in my mind is Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. He's on the low end of the totem pole at the beginning of his life and grows up with the children of a wealthier family (Earnshaws/Tullys). He develops an affection for the daughter of this patriarch (Catherine Earnshaw (I) and Catelyn) and is in turn disliked by the girl's brother. The daughter is promised to a boy of equal social standing with herself (Edgar Linton/Brandon, later Eddard Stark), so Heathcliff/Littlefinger leaves the family he grew up with and spends several years acquiring wealth through unscrupulous means before taking his revenge on the family that slighted him by receiving their lands and gaining power of the daughter of the woman he loved. One of the big differences between them is that Heathcliff has no sexual desire for Catherine (II) and mostly views her as a pawn to lord over Edgar.

 

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So continuing the trend of characters and plot points so similar that there is no way GRRM didn't intentionally steal them, today we have Judge Turpin from Sweeney Todd and Littlefinger. If you never saw the movie Sweeney Todd (you deffo should, it's one of the best musicals ever), Judge Turpin is the main antagonist of the series.

- Judge Turpin is obsessively infatuated with a certain woman, called Lucy, who however doesn't share his feelings and marries another. So far it's a very common plot point, so not much to it

- Acting on his sick infatuation Turpin frames Lucy's husband for treason and has him removed from the stage. Already sounding similar? Tbf in Sweeney Todd, Lucy's husband, the titular Sweeney Todd is just exiled to Australia, the Empire's penal colony, as opposed to the Nights Watch were Ned was supposed to be sent to.

- Following the fallout of that decision, Lucy eventually goes mad with grief and ends up getting killed by neck slitting. At this point the coincidences are starting to be a bit too much.

- However through all of this, Lucy has a daughter, called Joanna, who is said to be the perfect image of her mother. After she loses her parents, Littlefinger, I mean Turpin takes her in under his wing. However due to the similarities he soon develops a sexual obsession with her, constantly grooming her for marriage.

Yeah no way this is a coincidence, and from this we can be certain that the show at least got right that LF dies by neck slitting.

Hats off to both of these finds, to be honest, neither had ever occurred to me until just now. I guess it’s not an uncommon trope but the sheer volume potential homages being paid in this series really shows the scope of ASOIAF, and explains why it takes so damn long to write haha

[Canon Claude]

3 minutes ago, Bronn Urgandy said:

 

Hats off to both of these finds, to be honest, neither had ever occurred to me until just now. I guess it’s not an uncommon trope but the sheer volume potential homages being paid in this series really shows the scope of ASOIAF, and explains why it takes so damn long to write haha

To be honest, I also see a bit of Severus Snape in Littlefinger. Former childhood friends, weedy little loser never gets over losing his red-haired crush to a brave, long-faced dark-haired man. The loser grows up into a scheming plotter, still completely obsessed with said redhead and her offspring to a seriously unhealthy degree...only difference is Rowling thought such a character was a great guy for some stupid reason and GRRM correctly frames such a guy as a seriously dangerous and unwell person. 
I know that Rowling came later than GRRM, by the way, my point was that B. Urgandy (heh) was right; it’s definitely a trope at this point. A lot of stories feature such a character. 

[Canon Claude]

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'd love nothing more than to see Littlefinger killed by Lady Stoneheart (the sheer horror he'd be feeling would be worth reading such a scene), but I don't see how Littlefinger and Stoneheart are ever going to be in the same room. And while I don't want to rely on that abomination for any hints as to what's going to happen, I do have a feeling that Sansa and/or Arya will be Littlefinger's undoing somehow.

The bad guys in this series never get the deaths that they deserve and revenge is never achieved the way we really want (Tywin being the only exception).

Joffrey was killed by Littlefinger and Olenna. Sansa and Tyrion were pawns in their conspiracy and framed unjustly. The Mountain doesn’t die from Oberyn’s vengeful poison, he’s back as an immortal Frankenstein-like figure thanks to Qyburn. I highly doubt that, say, Reek will kill Ramsay, that Stoneheart will kill Littlefinger or Walder Frey, that Tyrion will kill Cersei, or that Aeron will kill Euron. These characters will have an unexpected comeuppance that we don’t see coming. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

15 hours ago, Bronn Urgandy said:

 

Hats off to both of these finds, to be honest, neither had ever occurred to me until just now. I guess it’s not an uncommon trope but the sheer volume potential homages being paid in this series really shows the scope of ASOIAF, and explains why it takes so damn long to write haha

To be honest, I also see a bit of Severus Snape in Littlefinger. Former childhood friends, weedy little loser never gets over losing his red-haired crush to a brave, long-faced dark-haired man. The loser grows up into a scheming plotter, still completely obsessed with said redhead and her offspring to a seriously unhealthy degree...only difference is Rowling thought such a character was a great guy for some stupid reason and GRRM correctly frames such a guy as a seriously dangerous and unwell person. 
I know that Rowling came later than GRRM, by the way, my point was that B. Urgandy (heh) was right; it’s definitely a trope at this point. A lot of stories feature such a character. 

Ironically both Snape and Turpin are played by Alan Rickman RIP

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, Bronn Urgandy said:

 

Hats off to both of these finds, to be honest, neither had ever occurred to me until just now. I guess it’s not an uncommon trope but the sheer volume potential homages being paid in this series really shows the scope of ASOIAF, and explains why it takes so damn long to write haha

Heck, there's even a couple nods to the NFL.

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

The bad guys in this series never get the deaths that they deserve and revenge is never achieved the way we really want (Tywin being the only exception).

Joffrey was killed by Littlefinger and Olenna. Sansa and Tyrion were pawns in their conspiracy and framed unjustly. The Mountain doesn’t die from Oberyn’s vengeful poison, he’s back as an immortal Frankenstein-like figure thanks to Qyburn. I highly doubt that, say, Reek will kill Ramsay, that Stoneheart will kill Littlefinger or Walder Frey, that Tyrion will kill Cersei, or that Aeron will kill Euron. These characters will have an unexpected comeuppance that we don’t see coming. 

I could say something about the elephant in the room, but I don't want this thread shut down.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

that Stoneheart will kill Littlefinger or Walder Frey

The Frey are deffo gonna get Red Weddinged hard by Stoneheart. It's not gonna be particularly nice or just, but Walder will die properly via Stoneheart

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be honest, I also see a bit of Severus Snape in Littlefinger. Former childhood friends, weedy little loser never gets over losing his red-haired crush to a brave, long-faced dark-haired man. The loser grows up into a scheming plotter, still completely obsessed with said redhead and her offspring to a seriously unhealthy degree...only difference is Rowling thought such a character was a great guy for some stupid reason and GRRM correctly frames such a guy as a seriously dangerous and unwell person. 
I know that Rowling came later than GRRM, by the way, my point was that B. Urgandy (heh) was right; it’s definitely a trope at this point. A lot of stories feature such a character. 

I think that Rowling would justify Snape because he doesn't have any higher designs other than "protect Harry because of Lily" and is trying to atone for causing her death, while Littlefinger has a sexual interest in Sansa, is only interested in gaining more power, and has had little remorse for Catelyn's death; he's merely shifted his desires to Sansa.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

I think that Rowling would justify Snape because he doesn't have any higher designs other than "protect Harry because of Lily" and is trying to atone for causing her death, while Littlefinger has a sexual interest in Sansa, is only interested in gaining more power, and has had little remorse for Catelyn's death; he's merely shifted his desires to Sansa.

I think there are 2 basic differences. First Snape is actively regretful and remorseful and is trying to atone and second off, Harry is a boy not a girl so it's pretty hard for there to be any creepy shit there

[Canon Claude]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think there are 2 basic differences. First Snape is actively regretful and remorseful and is trying to atone and second off, Harry is a boy not a girl so it's pretty hard for there to be any creepy shit there

First, Snape could very well have listed after Harry, and frankly it wouldn’t surprise me now given what we know about Rowling’s LGBTQ positions. 
And secondly, Snape clearly isn’t remorseful or regretful enough to not play favourites in a teacher’s position, bully and intimidate people like Harry just because of who his dad was, and also Neville (he literally said he’s more scared of Snape than anything else in his life, even after his parents were tortured into insanity). Also, isn’t it convenient that Snape torments the boy who might have been the Chosen One if Voldemort hadn’t killed Lily? Snape might not have desired Harry, but he clearly had profound problems and did NOT deserve the hero treatment that he got. He was still a creep.

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The Frey are deffo gonna get Red Weddinged hard by Stoneheart. It's not gonna be particularly nice or just, but Walder will die properly via Stoneheart

If that’s what will happen, then I stand corrected.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Canon Claude said:

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The Frey are deffo gonna get Red Weddinged hard by Stoneheart. It's not gonna be particularly nice or just, but Walder will die properly via Stoneheart

If that’s what will happen, then I stand corrected.

Well there aren't many other options really

[James Steller]

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The Frey are deffo gonna get Red Weddinged hard by Stoneheart. It's not gonna be particularly nice or just, but Walder will die properly via Stoneheart

I was under the impression that the Brown Wedding (as I’ve heard it called) would happen at Riverrun when Daven Lannister gets married. Who says Walder will be there? I doubt that he’s leaving the Twins for any reason. 
My prediction was always that one of his offspring will finish him off and the Frey’s will eat each other like starving rats (hence the Rat Cook).

[Canon Claude]

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

I was under the impression that the Brown Wedding (as I’ve heard it called) would happen at Riverrun when Daven Lannister gets married. Who says Walder will be there? I doubt that he’s leaving the Twins for any reason. 
My prediction was always that one of his offspring will finish him off and the Frey’s will eat each other like starving rats (hence the Rat Cook).

I can agree with part of this. There is definitely some kind of Frey civil war being set up. Black Walder and Lame Lothar are probably the most dangerous ones in the bunch, and meanwhile there’s a few “good” Frey characters (Perwyn, Big Walder, Olyvar, Alesander) to get invested in.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I can agree with part of this. There is definitely some kind of Frey civil war being set up. Black Walder and Lame Lothar are probably the most dangerous ones in the bunch, and meanwhile there’s a few “good” Frey characters (Perwyn, Big Walder, Olyvar, Alesander) to get invested in.

Most of the decent Freys are the Rosby Freys and are probably at Darry with Gatehouse Ami