Will we get a Ghost POV?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So we know that the prologue for TWOW will feature Jeyne Westerling and as such be in the Riverlands. So that means that Jon's resurrection will be seen by some pre established character. Of everybody at the Wall when he dies, that leaves out just Mel and Jon as potential POV's for the resurrection. So will we get a Jon POV exclusively from inside Ghost?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

51 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Of everybody at the Wall when he dies, that leaves out just Mel and Jon as potential POV's for the resurrection.

That's not exactly true. There's also Bran. He may not be there at the Wall physically, but I bet he has a very large role to play there anyway and that he will interact with Jon while he's inside Ghost in the same way the three-eyed crow interacted with Bran when he was in his coma.

52 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So will we get a Jon POV exclusively from inside Ghost?

I think so. We already had a taste of it back in ACoK, Jon VII.

[Pontius Pilate]

Jon may just die and his soul will reside in Ghost.  He may get his second life that way.  It will be an interesting challenge for Mr. Martin to write a wolf's point of view.  I find Ghost more interesting than Jon. 

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

21 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

 It will be an interesting challenge for Mr. Martin to write a wolf's point of view.  I find Ghost more interesting than Jon. 

Well, he´s already done partial POVs for Ghost, Summer and Nym in their owner´s chapters.

And in the fantasy genre it´s not that uncommon to have POVs of intelligent beasts, shouldn´t be a problem for GRRM.

[Curled Finger]

Jon in Ghost will be an awesome thing to read...if we are permitted a peak into the otherness of Jon's state.  I sorta want to see him fly around to different places looking for a place to park.  He jumps in Mel--no, too hot here.  He jumps into Tormund--no room in here.  He jumps into the boar and can't stand the stench and finally lands in Ghost--just right.   Then see the odd behavior through Mel's eyes.  That would be cool and keep the mystery about afterlife.  Creepy.  Wonder if he will get some sort of mind meld with The Others and revive with some information about them.  

[U. B. Cool]

On 11/3/2020 at 5:25 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So we know that the prologue for TWOW will feature Jeyne Westerling and as such be in the Riverlands. So that means that Jon's resurrection will be seen by some pre established character. Of everybody at the Wall when he dies, that leaves out just Mel and Jon as potential POV's for the resurrection. So will we get a Jon POV exclusively from inside Ghost?

I doubt it.  We will see Jon-Ghost from another perspective.  This point of view person will suspect something odd about the direwolf but they will not know for sure who is inside.  The only ones who will know are arya, bran, and Rickon.  This is how Arya will learn about Jon's execution and it will cause her to lose her mind.  She will be as crazy as Aerys in his last moments.  Instead of "Burn them all", it will be "stick em with the pointy end" that becomes the mantra of the insane.   That blade is a nasty piece of work.  She will kill a lot of guilty as well as innocent people with it. 

[Walda]

On 11/4/2020 at 9:32 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

It will be an interesting challenge for Mr. Martin to write a wolf's point of view

Quote

Wolves, he knew. His little cousins, chasing down some prey. Now the prince could see more of them, shadows on fleet grey paws. A pack.

He had a pack as well, once. Five they had been, and a sixth who stood aside. Somewhere down inside him were the sounds the men had given them to tell one from the other, but it was not by their sounds he knew them. He remembered their scents, his brothers and his sisters. They all had smelled alike, had smelled of pack, but each was different too.

His angry brother with the hot green eyes was near, the prince felt, though he had not seen him for many hunts. Yet with every sun that set he grew more distant, and he had been the last. The others were far scattered, like leaves blown by the wild wind.

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back … all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

(ASoS Ch 9 Bran I)

A challenge he has met already. Be careful what you wish for.

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Well, he´s already done partial POVs for Ghost, Summer and Nym in their owner´s chapters.

Jon's last words were Ghost. And Arya. Meli saw visions of a man, a direwolf and the man again. Jon will temporarily warg Ghost and return to his body. So interesting POV can be expected. I want a dragon POV too. Like in Eragon (Saphira)

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

12 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

I doubt it.  We will see Jon-Ghost from another perspective.  This point of view person will suspect something odd about the direwolf but they will not know for sure who is inside.  The only ones who will know are arya, bran, and Rickon.

Wasn´t Robb also warging into Grey Wind before his death ?

And I can´t remember any of his siblings "feeling" his death, only Arya new because she was there.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Growl, Arya, sniff, growl, Arya, piss on a tree, catch that hare, scratch that flea.  That about sums up what goes on in Jon's mind in the future.  We will get a third-person look at Ghost after Jon takes up permanent residence within.  I will guess and say it will be Mellisandre. 

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

13 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Growl, Arya, sniff, growl, Arya, piss on a tree, catch that hare, scratch that flea.  That about sums up what goes on in Jon's mind in the future. 

Who is a good boi ? Jon is a good boi ! Now fetch !

[Curled Finger]

On 11/4/2020 at 4:16 PM, U. B. Cool said:

I doubt it.  We will see Jon-Ghost from another perspective.  This point of view person will suspect something odd about the direwolf but they will not know for sure who is inside.  The only ones who will know are arya, bran, and Rickon.  This is how Arya will learn about Jon's execution and it will cause her to lose her mind.  She will be as crazy as Aerys in his last moments.  Instead of "Burn them all", it will be "stick em with the pointy end" that becomes the mantra of the insane.   That blade is a nasty piece of work.  She will kill a lot of guilty as well as innocent people with it. 

You could be right about Arya's reaction, but she's already lost so many Jon's death would be another brick in the wall of her mind.  I don't see insanity so much as a very young child's reactions to immense loss.   Some people withdraw and others get angry.   She is angry not insane.  What's most interesting to me is her place as the dark angel in this story, but she isn't even in the place she can make a difference with the skills she's learning.  I'm not sure if the FM know she's magical but they seem to want to "raise" her and accept her into their community.  I can't see her losing it over anything at this point, she's lost all she will and her loss is substantial.   Part of her training is patience.  Part of her training is control.  

I hope you're right about Jon's remaining family knowing he's still around.  Will he communicate with Bran and Arya or will we only get conversations between Summer, Shaggy Dog and Nymeria?  I sorta hope Jon is incapable of making his own contact and we have to see it all through Ghosts words and impressions.   That will be fascinating.   Perhaps if Jon is able to make contact with the cousins we will see a fire light under all 4 of them and they get moving closer to Winterfell, where they all belong.  

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure if the FM know she's magical but they seem to want to "raise" her and accept her into their community. 

I'm not either, but there's a big chance they do, Jaqen wakes her up in the middle of a wolfdream, meaning she was likely howling. Their blind training strengthens her abilities and the scented candle is similar to the weirwood paste. There's also the fact that she's 'promoted' when she has a breakthrough skinchanging.

Also, the kindly man lists three methods of face-changing, artifice, glamour and honest to god face change. Yet of the faceless men we met, none use the best one (bared from Jaqen) they all use the same face with small changed (artifice) and the kindly man seems to glamour himself when Arya first meets him. Bur Arya is trained directly in 'true' face changing, so why can't the others do this? is it because Arya's special power aids her in facechanging?

 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm not either, but there's a big chance they do, Jaqen wakes her up in the middle of a wolfdream, meaning she was likely howling. Their blind training strengthens her abilities and the scented candle is similar to the weirwood paste. There's also the fact that she's 'promoted' when she has a breakthrough skinchanging.

Also, the kindly man lists three methods of face-changing, artifice, glamour and honest to god face change. Yet of the faceless men we met, none use the best one (bared from Jaqen) they all use the same face with small changed (artifice) and the kindly man seems to glamour himself when Arya first meets him. Bur Arya is trained directly in 'true' face changing, so why can't the others do this? is it because Arya's special power aids her in facechanging?

 

You're on fire today, Camilo.  Even if the FM do understand what Arya is I don't really understand how it serves the order any better than say the Waif, with her agelessness.  Maybe it's a cumulative magic sort of thing where they only collect magical people?  Will Ghost reach out to Arya or Nym while Jon's not talking?  @U. B. Cool's statements about Arya's reaction really got me thinking about alternative reactions.  Now I'm pondering if Sansa could be part of this communication and how?   Would any of the kids head to the Wall because they know Jon's alive?  

@Lady Dacey, you are my FM go to.  Could it be that the Faceless Men are all magical people?  

[LynnS]

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You're on fire today, Camilo.  Even if the FM do understand what Arya is I don't really understand how it serves the order any better than say the Waif, with her agelessness.  Maybe it's a cumulative magic sort of thing where they only collect magical people?  Will Ghost reach out to Arya or Nym while Jon's not talking?  @U. B. Cool's statements about Arya's reaction really got me thinking about alternative reactions.  Now I'm pondering if Sansa could be part of this communication and how?   Would any of the kids head to the Wall because they know Jon's alive?  

@Lady Dacey, you are my FM go to.  Could it be that the Faceless Men are all magical people?  

I think there are deeper mysteries to the FM apart from acting as assassins.  It's possible that they are all capable of skinchanging.  Arya has been marked and chosen for or by the FM from the beginning .

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya I

Nymeria nipped eagerly at her hand as Arya untied her. She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins. Arya had named her after the warrior queen of the Rhoyne, who had led her people across the narrow sea. That had been a great scandal too. Sansa, of course, had named her pup "Lady." Arya made a face and hugged the wolfling tight. Nymeria licked her ear, and she giggled.

I suspect they do know that Arya is a powerful warg and this is why she has been chosen.  She can warg Nymeria across the Narrow Sea.  She can now skinchange a cat.  And she wants to fly.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya X

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried. Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

This sounds like an abbreviated version of what happens to Bran in his coma dream.  

Bran wants to teach his siblings to fly:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

 I think this will happen.  Tree-Bran has already made a connection to Ghost-Jon and it doesn't seem a stretch that can do this with Arya and Rickon.  Not with Sansa though, she lost her direwolf.

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think there are deeper mysteries to the FM apart from acting as assassins.  It's possible that they are all capable of skinchanging.  Arya has been marked and chosen for or by the FM from the beginning .

I suspect they do know that Arya is a powerful warg and this is why she has been chosen.  She can warg Nymeria across the Narrow Sea.  She can now skinchange a cat.  And she wants to fly.

This sounds like an abbreviated version of what happens to Bran in his coma dream.  

Bran wants to teach his siblings to fly:

 I think this will happen.  Tree-Bran has already made a connection to Ghost-Jon and it doesn't seem a stretch that can do this with Arya and Rickon.  Not with Sansa though, she lost her direwolf.

Hey LynnS, thanks for the reply.   I admit this really has me thinking this morning.  It's hard to separate the magic for me.   Ice, fire, water--gads.  Considering the examples you offered it's clear the FM are magical and I think I was getting a jump start on that remembering the waif, but it honestly never even occurred to me before.  My eyes are drawn to your opening sentences about deeper mysteries and skin changing.  Isn't that exactly what the Boltons are famous for?  Taking skins and wearing them.   Shudder.  You are so much more comfortable weighing these higher mysteries.  I am grateful for your examples.  Lady Dacy has an excellent topic about religion going a few years back and she made some eye opening revelations about the FM in that topic.  Could it be that magic is a quotient in real religious worship in this place?   Wow.  

I'm trying not to derail the conversation and failing because this really is interesting.   Saying we do get updates from Ghost or Jon in Ghost.  How could Sansa become part of the communication?   I remember folks used to think she would get a bond bird, but that's sort of silly I think.  I don't think a bond animal can be replaced and both Arya and Bran can skinchange more than direwolves.  (I'm not convinced Arya even had the chance to bond with Nymeria any more deeply than Sansa did with Lady).  But there is that dream in AGOT where Sansa dreams about Lady.  Are dreams a place Sansa could actually get messages if not send them?  Could Sansa's warg blindness (for lack of a better term) make her more receptive to psychic intel?   I could see her rallying forces to go save Ghost if she knew Jon was "in" him.  Sorry, this is all sort of new thinking for me.  

[CamiloRP]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey LynnS, thanks for the reply.   I admit this really has me thinking this morning.  It's hard to separate the magic for me.   Ice, fire, water--gads.  Considering the examples you offered it's clear the FM are magical and I think I was getting a jump start on that remembering the waif, but it honestly never even occurred to me before.  My eyes are drawn to your opening sentences about deeper mysteries and skin changing.  Isn't that exactly what the Boltons are famous for?  Taking skins and wearing them.   Shudder.  You are so much more comfortable weighing these higher mysteries.  I am grateful for your examples.  Lady Dacy has an excellent topic about religion going a few years back and she made some eye opening revelations about the FM in that topic.  Could it be that magic is a quotient in real religious worship in this place?   Wow.  

I'm trying not to derail the conversation and failing because this really is interesting.   Saying we do get updates from Ghost or Jon in Ghost.  How could Sansa become part of the communication?   I remember folks used to think she would get a bond bird, but that's sort of silly I think.  I don't think a bond animal can be replaced and both Arya and Bran can skinchange more than direwolves.  (I'm not convinced Arya even had the chance to bond with Nymeria any more deeply than Sansa did with Lady).  But there is that dream in AGOT where Sansa dreams about Lady.  Are dreams a place Sansa could actually get messages if not send them?  Could Sansa's warg blindness (for lack of a better term) make her more receptive to psychic intel?   I could see her rallying forces to go save Ghost if she knew Jon was "in" him.  Sorry, this is all sort of new thinking for me.  

It's not an original thought of mine, I can't remember where I read it, but I like the idea that Sansa's telepathic powers manifest in her influencing people, making Tyrion, LF, the Hound and SR suddenly feel attached to her.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady Dacy has an excellent topic about religion going a few years back and she made some eye opening revelations about the FM in that topic

That's sounds really interesting.  I'm not familiar with Lady Dacey's observations and insights on the FM.  We are in danger of derailing this thread and this sounds like a long conversation.  Perhaps a new thread?

[Curled Finger]

Sorry Lynn, grandson was in dire need and I rushed off before I could elaborate on my thoughts in this.  Lady Dacey had a topic about religion and the FM came up in an additional section.   I've always thought they were good guys stressing the poisoned wells as proof of the mercy.  What do I know?  At any rate I was thinking if there was a way Sansa could be drawn into whatever hypothetical communication Jon in Ghost might have.  I know Sansa isn't a big fan of Jon's, but it's clear to me that she cares for him in her naming him to Miranda Royce.  He's all the family she knows she has left.  Could a dream about Ghost or even Jon reach her and prompt her to flee the Vale?  Sansa had Lady longer not much longer, but longer than Arya had Nymeria and yet they bond.   I'm thinking the wolves tether the kids to their psychic gifts.  Sansa dreams of Lady.  This got me thinking about Arya not really knowing she's actually living through Nymeria's eyes in her dreams.  Why would she think she was in Nymeria?  Yet, Arya's powers are strong and she can project herself into cats and birds.   I guess I want the powers to still be with Sansa and some expression of her powers to surface.  So that's the big mystery on my mind today.   I'm looking forward to the topic.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 11/4/2020 at 6:16 PM, U. B. Cool said:

I doubt it.  We will see Jon-Ghost from another perspective.  This point of view person will suspect something odd about the direwolf but they will not know for sure who is inside.  The only ones who will know are arya, bran, and Rickon.  This is how Arya will learn about Jon's execution and it will cause her to lose her mind.  She will be as crazy as Aerys in his last moments.  Instead of "Burn them all", it will be "stick em with the pointy end" that becomes the mantra of the insane.   That blade is a nasty piece of work.  She will kill a lot of guilty as well as innocent people with it. 

It won't only be Arya.  The pack will go rabid now.  The connections to the wolves and the Starks are stronger.  Sure Arya will become berserk after she finds out about Jon getting killed for treason.