Minor Blunders?

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

He pretty much did.

In what way? Nothing changed for Myrcella's because of him committing suicide in that stupid, stupid way

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Mandon Moore had the dead eyes, not Preston. Preston is basically a non entity, neither an exceptional warrior or a good man, doomed to die early and leave little impression compared to everyone else.

1.       Thank you, I stand corrected. Apologies for the error. Even as I was typing comment#5 (reply to Alyn), I realized my mistake. But data pack got over. Had to clear browsing history (adv) to even sign out. Moore’s the dead eyed freak, Greenfield was a non-entity, I agree. Wonder how such scum ended up in the KG. That too under Robert. Cersei’s scum are her follies.

12 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To be fair, there wasn't that much he could do in that situation. The Hound was the only one who didn't do it due to Joff knowing he shouldn't fuck with him. Everbody else had to do as he ordered or else

1.       Alyn, there’s always another choice. Arys went as far as objecting to Joffrey’s orders to beat Sansa, could have refused. Made Joff put him in the same category as the Hound. No messing with category. But he was a fool to begin with. When Tyrion could chastise Joff, Arys certainly could do better, given that he doesn’t need Shagga or Timett

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

  Thank you, I stand corrected. Apologies for the error. Even as I was typing comment#5 (reply to Alyn), I realized my mistake. But data pack got over. Had to clear browsing history (adv) to even sign out. Moore’s the dead eyed freak, Greenfield was a non-entity, I agree. Wonder how such scum ended up in the KG. That too under Robert. Cersei’s scum are her follies

"Her Grace does not wish to be disturbed," Ser Mandon repeated slowly, as if Tyrion were a dullard who had not heard him the first time.

Jaime had once told him that Moore was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard—excepting himself, always—because his face gave no hint as what he might do next.

In this scene Tyrion is being treated as a child. Like how Sansa was treated like a "lackwit child" by Preston Greenfield.

Ser Boros was short-tempered, Ser Meryn cold, and Ser Mandon's strange dead eyes made her uneasy, while Ser Preston treated her like a lackwit child

Dangerous dead eyes. Hope you see why I mixed them up. 

[Thandros]

Blount couldn't protect anyone. Tyrion wanted Myrcella protected.

Meryn Trant was little better and Cersei's creature. He's also kind of nasty. Not exactly the bes choice.

Preston Greenfield. Given he's a westerman knight of some repute he may well have been involved in the Sack of King's Landing which would taint him by association. Tyrion probably didn't want to insult them.

Mandon Moore. Dangerous and tricky to like. Tyrion may have been hoping the mission would have some kind of diplomatic effect of improving relations perhaps. Not really a good candidate.

The Hound and Jamie aren't options at all. THe latter due to being a prisoner and the hound for Joffrey not want to let go of his dog.

The Oakhearts may have bad history but nothing too seriously in the last generation. He may not have been the best choice but the others are honestly worse. Arys is also friendly amiable and as far as the current crop of kingsguard go a decent example of chivalry. He's chosen by Tyrion because for all his faults the others would do a lot worse in Dorne than him.

[ShimShim]

I've never given it much thought. I've always assumed that it was just because Arys seemed like one of the more competent members of the KG. The others don't seem like people you would put much confidence in, both skill and personality wise.

[Lord Lannister]

11 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

In what way? Nothing changed for Myrcella's because of him committing suicide in that stupid, stupid way

I didn't say it was a smart decision. I just said he technically died for her. Which he did. Between being manipulated into that half ass coup and the pointless death, I didn't think something as painfully obvious as him being stupid needed mentioning.

[CamiloRP]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I didn't say it was a smart decision. I just said he technically died for her. Which he did. Between being manipulated into that half ass coup and the pointless death, I didn't think something as painfully obvious as him being stupid needed mentioning.

hahahhaha fair, I just don't think he 'died for her'. I think it was a honor thing or something.

[The hairy bear]

On 11/4/2020 at 11:05 AM, TheLastWolf said:

 And to add to it all, House Oakheart already has a centuries-long enmity with Dorne.

I'm sure Tyrion thought that Arys' hatred towards the Dornishmen was a plus. He surely didn't want him to get in bed with the Martells, did he?

 

[Lord Lannister]

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

hahahhaha fair, I just don't think he 'died for her'. I think it was a honor thing or something.

That's exactly what it was. He was a knight of the Kingsguard. His princess(or both) was about to be taken, he was going to die defending her. So... he did.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 11/5/2020 at 2:11 PM, Lord Lannister said:

That's exactly what it was. He was a knight of the Kingsguard. His princess(or both) was about to be taken, he was going to die defending her. So... he did.

If you follow his chapters closely, you can see hes more or less doing it because he can't live with what he's done or for love of Arianne. He moves to defend Arianne, not the princess. All in all he's a pretty shitty KG knight

[TheLastWolf]

Minor Blunders 2

"Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Froth shone on Yoren's lips, like bubbles of blood. "All that time, I only lost three. Old man died of a fever, city boy got snakebit taking a shit, and one fool tried to kill me in my sleep and got a red smile for his trouble." He drew the dirk across his throat, to show her. "Three in thirty years." He spat out the old sourleaf. "A ship now, might have been wiser. No chance o' finding more men on the way, but still . . . clever man, he'd go by ship, but me . . . thirty years I been taking this kingsroad." He sheathed his dirk. "Go to sleep, boy. Hear me?"

Was Yoren mad or crazy? He regrets taking the kings road during war. Knew dogs like Clegane or Lorch won't give a damn for NW neutrality. Ship to Eastwatch via White Harbor or Gulltown would have been wiser. His Own words. Maybe not more recruits, but safer. Why? I won't accept its for plot convenience. Then it's a GRRM oversight of realistic writing. And that is not an option. 

And why don't the NW miss him much? 30 years. Only 3 dead. And suddenly no one comes? Only a few passing references and thoughts in Jon's and Sam's POV S. 

[CamiloRP]

30 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Minor Blunders 2

"Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Froth shone on Yoren's lips, like bubbles of blood. "All that time, I only lost three. Old man died of a fever, city boy got snakebit taking a shit, and one fool tried to kill me in my sleep and got a red smile for his trouble." He drew the dirk across his throat, to show her. "Three in thirty years." He spat out the old sourleaf. "A ship now, might have been wiser. No chance o' finding more men on the way, but still . . . clever man, he'd go by ship, but me . . . thirty years I been taking this kingsroad." He sheathed his dirk. "Go to sleep, boy. Hear me?"

Was Yoren mad or crazy? He regrets taking the kings road during war. Knew dogs like Clegane or Lorch won't give a damn for NW neutrality. Ship to Eastwatch via White Harbor or Gulltown would have been wiser. His Own words. Maybe not more recruits, but safer. Why? I won't accept its for plot convenience. Then it's a GRRM oversight of realistic writing. And that is not an option. 

It was also cheaper and the war wasn't that bad when he left KL.

 

30 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

And why don't the NW miss him much? 30 years. Only 3 dead. And suddenly no one comes? Only a few passing references and thoughts in Jon's and Sam's POV S. 

I think it's fair of them to assume he died during war, and given that they have no set time for him to arrive it's harder to start wondering what happened, they might have thought he was still searching for men months after he died.

[Springwatch]

On 11/6/2020 at 9:28 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

If you follow his chapters closely, you can see hes more or less doing it because he can't live with what he's done or for love of Arianne. He moves to defend Arianne, not the princess. All in all he's a pretty shitty KG knight

Don't agree. His princesses are going to be captured whatever he does, so he has failed in the purpose he dedicated his entire life to. So, death before dishonour.  And he does stay loyal to Myrcella - Arianne had to go to pretty extreme lengths to get any influence at all, and at the end all he's doing is making Myrcella queen - not disloyal, that.

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

"A ship now, might have been wiser. No chance o' finding more men on the way, but still . . . clever man, he'd go by ship, but me . . . thirty years I been taking this kingsroad."

Hard to change the habit of a lifetime, also 'better the devil you know...'

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Why? I won't accept its for plot convenience. Then it's a GRRM oversight of realistic writing. And that is not an option. 

I've had that thought. About a million times. And still it goes on. 

Actually I agree with you; George is not a careless writer. There are mistakes, but fewer mistakes than deliberate anomalies, so it has to be better to assume everything is deliberate. But in this case it's probably that George is cooking up some deeper theme about the sea (ironborn, patchface, drowned winterfell), which may or may not become clear later.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Actually I agree with you; George is not a careless writer. There are mistakes, but fewer mistakes than deliberate anomalies, so it has to be better to assume everything is deliberate. But in this case it's probably that George is cooking up some deeper theme about the sea (ironborn, patchface, drowned winterfell), which may or may not become clear later.

Or in fact (and this is not aimed at anyone or any idea in particular, but a general observation), you (generic) are not as smart as you think you are.

Most of the "complaints" I see seem to me to be... basically just someone's personal opinion about what would be 'right' - with no consideration of reasonable alternatives why they might not be 'right' and GRRM might be 'right' instead.

IMO, its better to think of a reason why something you don't think fits does actually fit, than assume its a mistake. GRRM makes few actual mistakes - he's very good at leaving himself room for uncertainty by the use of casual or vague language or not detailing an idea or subplot. 

[Springwatch]

59 minutes ago, corbon said:

Or in fact (and this is not aimed at anyone or any idea in particular, but a general observation), you (generic) are not as smart as you think you are.

Most of the "complaints" I see seem to me to be... basically just someone's personal opinion about what would be 'right' - with no consideration of reasonable alternatives why they might not be 'right' and GRRM might be 'right' instead.

1. Better if everyone thinks they are smart enough, than have genuinely smart ideas choked off by self-doubts.
2. From where we are right now, it appears GRRM is working hard to write questions, not answers. It's probably 'wrong' (i.e. not what he intended) to settle for a single 'truth' when you could see many angles. For example, he could have written a simple plot for the purple wedding, which is gradually revealed like a detective story. He hasn't done that; he's left big areas of uncertainty - you can't just think, ok LF did it, that's over. We're kind of forced to question the event over and over, and I think that's the point, that's the 'correct' way to read the books: question everything.
3. So in this case, Yoren makes a questionable decision, but nothing we'd notice much except that he makes a little speech about it being wiser to go by sea. Which is odd and unnecessary, and it feels like a nudge, a prompt to question. Maybe it is.

59 minutes ago, corbon said:

IMO, its better to think of a reason why something you don't think fits does actually fit, than assume its a mistake. GRRM makes few actual mistakes - he's very good at leaving himself room for uncertainty by the use of casual or vague language or not detailing an idea or subplot. 

Agree, except we haven't got all the books yet. We are theorising ahead of the evidence, as Sherlock Holmes might have said. That's all we can do.

[talvikorppi]

On 11/5/2020 at 11:20 AM, Thandros said:

Blount couldn't protect anyone. Tyrion wanted Myrcella protected.

Meryn Trant was little better and Cersei's creature. He's also kind of nasty. Not exactly the bes choice.

Preston Greenfield. Given he's a westerman knight of some repute he may well have been involved in the Sack of King's Landing which would taint him by association. Tyrion probably didn't want to insult them.

Mandon Moore. Dangerous and tricky to like. Tyrion may have been hoping the mission would have some kind of diplomatic effect of improving relations perhaps. Not really a good candidate.

The Hound and Jamie aren't options at all. THe latter due to being a prisoner and the hound for Joffrey not want to let go of his dog.

The Oakhearts may have bad history but nothing too seriously in the last generation. He may not have been the best choice but the others are honestly worse. Arys is also friendly amiable and as far as the current crop of kingsguard go a decent example of chivalry. He's chosen by Tyrion because for all his faults the others would do a lot worse in Dorne than him.

Pretty much this.

Here's also Sansa's assessment of the KG in ACOK, Sansa I:

 

Quote

"Shall we go?" Ser Arys offered his arm and she let him lead her from her chamber. If she must have one of the Kingsguard dogging her steps, Sansa preferred that it be him. Ser Boros was short-tempered, Ser Meryn cold, and Ser Mandon's strange dead eyes made her uneasy, while Ser Preston treated her like a lackwit child. Arys Oakheart was courteous, and would talk to her cordially. Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. The others obeyed without question . . . except for the Hound, but Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:59 AM, Springwatch said:

Don't agree. His princesses are going to be captured whatever he does, so he has failed in the purpose he dedicated his entire life to. So, death before dishonour.  And he does stay loyal to Myrcella - Arianne had to go to pretty extreme lengths to get any influence at all, and at the end all he's doing is making Myrcella queen - not disloyal, that.

Man he stares at Arianne to ride to his death -- knowing both princesses will be safe if he yields -- and we know about his shame from prior chapters out of his own mouth. And he *absolutely* didn't stay loyal to Myrcella. He chose his own death of protecting her. Darkstar took a chunk of her head did he not? 

[Springwatch]

18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

knowing both princesses will be safe if he yields

How does he know that? And doesn't Jaime say that Tommen's KG escort (whichever) should have died before giving Tommen up?

ETA

Darkstar was believed to be one of Myrcella's defenders.

[Universal Sword Donor]

27 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

How does he know that? And doesn't Jaime say that Tommen's KG escort (whichever) should have died before giving Tommen up?

“Hotah thumped the butt of his longaxe upon the deck. Behind the ornate rails of the poleboat, a dozen guardsmen rose, armed with throwing spears or crossbows. Still more appeared atop the cabin. “Yield, my princess,” the captain called, “else we must slay all but the child and yourself, by your father’s word.”

And again, when Arianne yells at everyone to protect the princess, Arys stares at her (not the princess) and rides to his death. He wasn't protecting her. They had the option to flee on horses vs the guards on foot as well but they did not.

As to Boros Blount, I believe Tyrion said it but as I mentioned before there are other options. You don't always have to stand and fight. Look at the KG during the Dance of the Dragons. They smuggled children out of KL.

27 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

ETA

Darkstar was believed to be one of Myrcella's defenders.

Part of being Kingsguard is looking for and finding threats wherever they may be. Garin didn't trust him. Darkstar straight up tells Arianne they should just kill Myrcella and then threatens to kill Arys. 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“Hotah thumped the butt of his longaxe upon the deck. Behind the ornate rails of the poleboat, a dozen guardsmen rose, armed with throwing spears or crossbows. Still more appeared atop the cabin. “Yield, my princess,” the captain called, “else we must slay all but the child and yourself, by your father’s word.”

So Doran does not want them immediately dead by the river, but that's not the same as being 'safe'. Arianne could be accused of treason, and Myrcella at minimum is going to be a captive, the exact thing Jaime says a KG should die to prevent (he says to Boros, "You should have died before you let Tommen be taken.")

If there was a possibility of escaping on horseback, Arys did a good thing by attacking the enemy commander - hopefully the crossbowmen would never get the word to fire.

And if the Dornish had shared their suspicions of Darkstar, maybe everything would have been different. But as long as Arianne supported him, Arys would have to smell out the truth like the Hound, and he's not the Hound.