Minor Blunders?

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So Doran does not want them immediately dead by the river, but that's not the same as being 'safe'. Arianne could be accused of treason, and Myrcella at minimum is going to be a captive, the exact thing Jaime says a KG should die to prevent (he says to Boros, "You should have died before you let Tommen be taken.")

If there was a possibility of escaping on horseback, Arys did a good thing by attacking the enemy commander - hopefully the crossbowmen would never get the word to fire.

And if the Dornish had shared their suspicions of Darkstar, maybe everything would have been different. But as long as Arianne supported him, Arys would have to smell out the truth like the Hound, and he's not the Hound.

Myrcella was already a captive in Dorne. And thank you for the update on Boros. Arys didn't attack the enemy commander. The enemy commander attacked him. Arys' job is to smell out the truth and protect Myrcella from everything.

And again, he doesn't yell run he stares at Arianne with a longing look.  He wasn't Myrcella or her safety. He was thinking Arianne and dying for glory / shame.

He was an awful KG through and through.

Edit: totally missed the part where he puts himself between Arianne and the crossbows. Only saw it on a 1500th re read

“No!” Ser Arys Oakheart put his horse between Arianne and the crossbows, his blade shining silver in his hand. He had unslung his shield and slipped his left arm through the straps. “You will not take her whilst I still draw breath.”

Mycella is a complete afterthought to everyone in this scene lol

[Aldarion]

On 11/10/2020 at 3:10 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Minor Blunders 2

"Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Froth shone on Yoren's lips, like bubbles of blood. "All that time, I only lost three. Old man died of a fever, city boy got snakebit taking a shit, and one fool tried to kill me in my sleep and got a red smile for his trouble." He drew the dirk across his throat, to show her. "Three in thirty years." He spat out the old sourleaf. "A ship now, might have been wiser. No chance o' finding more men on the way, but still . . . clever man, he'd go by ship, but me . . . thirty years I been taking this kingsroad." He sheathed his dirk. "Go to sleep, boy. Hear me?"

Was Yoren mad or crazy? He regrets taking the kings road during war. Knew dogs like Clegane or Lorch won't give a damn for NW neutrality. Ship to Eastwatch via White Harbor or Gulltown would have been wiser. His Own words. Maybe not more recruits, but safer. Why? I won't accept its for plot convenience. Then it's a GRRM oversight of realistic writing. And that is not an option. 

And why don't the NW miss him much? 30 years. Only 3 dead. And suddenly no one comes? Only a few passing references and thoughts in Jon's and Sam's POV S. 

Eh... half of ASoIaF is plot convenience. Yeah, there is lot from the books I've forgotten, considering the way I read (a chapter now and then - I don't have time for more), but let's just say that realism isn't very high on list of George's priorities.

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Myrcella was already a captive in Dorne.

Myrcella was a guest with friends. Obviously that's changed.

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And thank you for the update on Boros. Arys didn't attack the enemy commander. The enemy commander attacked him.

Jaime (again) recommends charging archers.

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Arys' job is to smell out the truth and protect Myrcella from everything.

As we're told, distrusting everyone is as useless as trusting everyone. Arys didn't have enough time to winkle out the treachery in Arianne's friends, and in reality, truth has no smell. The Hound might be a bit magic, but Arys is not.

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And again, he doesn't yell run he stares at Arianne with a longing look.  He wasn't Myrcella or her safety. He was thinking Arianne and dying for glory / shame.

He made his decision first. We don't know how much Myrcella was in his mind when he made that decision. Ideally he wouldn't have spared a thought for Arianne at all, but that doesn't mean he would have acted differently if she wasn't present.

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He was an awful KG through and through.

You have not shown this, and you can't because it's not even close to true - not even Barristan could have magicked Myrcella out of that situation.

Tyrion chose Arys to guard the niece he's fond of, so we should really assume that Arys is competent. Obviously he's not perfect - the perfect KG would not fall in love with Arianne, and not get involved in the queen-making plot - but if you call Arys awful through and through, that doesn't leave you any words to describe Boros.

16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Edit: totally missed the part where he puts himself between Arianne and the crossbows. Only saw it on a 1500th re read

“No!” Ser Arys Oakheart put his horse between Arianne and the crossbows, his blade shining silver in his hand. He had unslung his shield and slipped his left arm through the straps. “You will not take her whilst I still draw breath.”

Mycella is a complete afterthought to everyone in this scene lol

The princesses are close together, don't you think? Myrcella was speaking to Arianne on the journey. It's Arianne, the POV,  who has lost focus on Myrcella, who is only thinking of herself.

[TheLastWolf]

On 11/13/2020 at 12:33 PM, Aldarion said:

but let's just say that realism isn't very high on list of George's priorities

WHAT!?!? Martin has been as realistic as possible without harming the plot. No other author is as close except a few whose names would derail this thread with arguments. His world is dark and realistic, because medieval warring worlds will be like that only. Not with dancing Disney princesses. And if you only referred to Yoren and such minor oversights/Blunders (title of this OP), then it's a case of me taking out of context. But if not, I simply disagree. But I'm open to argument and ideas here 

[The Young Maester]

38 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

WHAT!?!? Martin has been as realistic as possible without harming the plot. No other author is as close except a few whose names would derail this thread with arguments. His world is dark and realistic, because medieval warring worlds will be like that only. Not with dancing Disney princesses. And if you only referred to Yoren and such minor oversights/Blunders (title of this OP), then it's a case of me taking out of context. But if not, I simply disagree. But I'm open to argument and ideas here 

Their are so many unrealistic scenarios that can be pointed out in all honesty. We’ve even discussed many of them in these forums.

[TheLastWolf]

1 minute ago, The Young Maester said:

Their are so many unrealistic scenarios that can be pointed out in all honesty. We’ve even discussed many of them in these forums.

Take them as a percentage of the total realism in this humongous series. 0.00000....%. Even less. And many of that are subject to argument. Not certainties or sureties. 

[Aldarion]

53 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

WHAT!?!? Martin has been as realistic as possible without harming the plot. No other author is as close except a few whose names would derail this thread with arguments. His world is dark and realistic, because medieval warring worlds will be like that only. Not with dancing Disney princesses. And if you only referred to Yoren and such minor oversights/Blunders (title of this OP), then it's a case of me taking out of context. But if not, I simply disagree. But I'm open to argument and ideas here 

I was referring to his world in general. His basic worldbuilding is screwed up: Westeros is an allegedly feudal kingdom but is too large, has cities too large and armies too large to function as one. Feudalism was based on social contract, on personal honour: look at some deals and agreements between even enemies during Middle Ages (Richard the Lionheart and Saladdin, for example, or behaviour of combatants on Croatian-Ottoman frontier). That kind of honour, which makes society run, is almost wholly absent in Westeros. Martin took medieval world, yet people within it have outright postmodern (lack of) morality. There is nothing realistic about that.

EDIT: To sum up, he sacrificed realism in favour of GRIMDARK.

[The Young Maester]

21 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

I was referring to his world in general. His basic worldbuilding is screwed up: Westeros is an allegedly feudal kingdom but is too large, has cities too large and armies too large to function as one. Feudalism was based on social contract, on personal honour: look at some deals and agreements between even enemies during Middle Ages (Richard the Lionheart and Saladdin, for example, or behaviour of combatants on Croatian-Ottoman frontier). That kind of honour, which makes society run, is almost wholly absent in Westeros. Martin took medieval world, yet people within it have outright postmodern (lack of) morality. There is nothing realistic about that.

EDIT: To sum up, he sacrificed realism in favour of GRIMDARK.

That basically sums up asoiaf.

But I’m here for the plot only. Despite the world building and all other things that piss me off. I try my best to ignore it, for the sake of enjoying the marvellous plots and characters.

[Aldarion]

3 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

That basically sums up asoiaf.

But I’m here for the plot only. Despite the world building and all other things that piss me off. I try my best to ignore it, for the sake of enjoying the marvellous plots and characters.

Same here. But for my part, worldbuilding is my passion, as is history, so as much as I like the books, that stuff is to me kinda hard to ignore.

[The Young Maester]

3 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Same here. But for my part, worldbuilding is my passion, as is history, so as much as I like the books, that stuff is to me kinda hard to ignore.

Yeah for that reason I’ll never consider asoiaf the best fantasy series. 

[Springwatch]

@Aldarion, @The Young Maester   -  I hope you're not going to say you're disappointed? Because we had the Wall, Winterfell, and the Eyrie in the very first book. You can't honestly wish those three structures brought down to something more 'realistic'? The books would be very different. This is very clearly a style thing - everything supersize, everything on steroids. It's a choice the author has built on every book down the line; take it or leave it.

[The Young Maester]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

@Aldarion, @The Young Maester   -  I hope you're not going to say you're disappointed? Because we had the Wall, Winterfell, and the Eyrie in the very first book. You can't honestly wish those three structures brought down to something more 'realistic'? The books would be very different. This is very clearly a style thing - everything supersize, everything on steroids. It's a choice the author has built on every book down the line; take it or leave it.

I definitely like the series. But we’re just giving our opinion on its world building really. 

[Aldarion]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

@Aldarion, @The Young Maester   -  I hope you're not going to say you're disappointed? Because we had the Wall, Winterfell, and the Eyrie in the very first book. You can't honestly wish those three structures brought down to something more 'realistic'? The books would be very different. This is very clearly a style thing - everything supersize, everything on steroids. It's a choice the author has built on every book down the line; take it or leave it.

That is not what I was talking about. Unrealistic structures can be explained by magic, so while I do see oversized castles in particular (e.g. Winterfell, Storm's End... every single castle in Westeros actually) as rather superfluous and somewhat immersion, breaking, there are very large structures in real life: Mehrangarh fort has 118 ft tall walls. But structures are irrelevant: it doesn't matter whether Winterfell's wall is 18 or 80 feet tall. What matters are the things which determine interactions. Problems I have with Martin's worldbuilding are related to the sociopolitical structures and how they interact with each other, with characters in the story and with the world as a whole.

[HoodedCrow]

The physics of the castles and the wall, etc are not real world. The castles are great calendar material, moments of plot, and keep you in the fantasy story. I thought Martin confessed a bit with having Harrenhal described. Still, what kind of world might have had magical builders and dragon power?

Tyrion’s physical abilities change over episodes. It’s minor but distracting.

 

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

That is not what I was talking about. Unrealistic structures can be explained by magic, so while I do see oversized castles in particular (e.g. Winterfell, Storm's End... every single castle in Westeros actually) as rather superfluous and somewhat immersion, breaking, there are very large structures in real life: Mehrangarh fort has 118 ft tall walls. But structures are irrelevant: it doesn't matter whether Winterfell's wall is 18 or 80 feet tall. What matters are the things which determine interactions. Problems I have with Martin's worldbuilding are related to the sociopolitical structures and how they interact with each other, with characters in the story and with the world as a whole.

Well, me too - the first read was a very bumpy ride, and I still notice it when I'm paying attention. What I'm trying to say is that Martin has discarded more conventions than I thought possible in order to do something else, and you can't argue with success. I mean, I'm a big fan of Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles, better than asoiaf in some ways, but it doesn't have a forum like this one because there's less in it to intrigue/thrill/surprise/annoy readers for years after publication.