What was the point of no return for Cersei?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So The Cersei we see by AFFC and ADWD is paranoid, naricisstic entitled, and an all round vile bitch. The question is, when was the point of no return, what was it that broke her, presuming she did not start out the way she did.

Was it Maggy's prophecy, marrying Robert or fucking Jaime?

My guess would be marrying Robert. Cersei was probably already an overly proud person, being raped and humiliated on a daily basis, probably screwed her up big time.

[Universal Sword Donor]

She killed her best friend at 10. I'm guessing sometime before then

[corbon]

48 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So The Cersei we see by AFFC and ADWD is paranoid, naricisstic entitled, and an all round vile bitch. The question is, when was the point of no return, what was it that broke her, presuming she did not start out the way she did.

I think you made the question pointless by basing it off a false foundation.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, corbon said:

52 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So The Cersei we see by AFFC and ADWD is paranoid, naricisstic entitled, and an all round vile bitch. The question is, when was the point of no return, what was it that broke her, presuming she did not start out the way she did.

I think you made the question pointless by basing it off a false foundation.  

I don't think GRRM would write a character that is born evil. Even Ramsay was fucked up by Reek, his mother and his bastardy

[Arthur Peres]

I think she was born rotten, and her enviroment pushed the worst in her, turning her in this evil creature.

She was already a murder at the age of 10, and before that she tormented and hurted baby Tyrion and ... would not be surprised if she killed/tortured animals at the age of 6 

[broken one]

I think every lord's child is told he/she is better than the rest but in case of cersei it fell on very fertile ground. like she got everything and was allowed to do much but was not properly looked after, I doubt if Ty had much time.

[corbon]

19 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think GRRM would write a character that is born evil. Even Ramsay was fucked up by Reek, his mother and his bastardy

Don't you think its possible to be a narcistic bitch and not actually be evil?
Her main problem is that she is close enough to power that her narcism has evil results. Power corrupts, so she only gets worse. But the foundation was always there.
What sort of person hates their baby brother enough to malevolently twist his penis till he cries and only stop when her other brother tells her to?

[Ser Leftwich]

13 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think GRRM would write a character that is born evil. Even Ramsay was fucked up by Reek, his mother and his bastardy

GRRM may also not write a character so simple as to say "this, this was the point of no return for my dastardly character! Ha, ha, ha, stupid hero, my motivation is because other people were mean to me."

[CamiloRP]

24 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I think she was born rotten, and her enviroment pushed the worst in her, turning her in this evil creature.

She was already a murder at the age of 10, and before that she tormented and hurted baby Tyrion and ... would not be surprised if she killed/tortured animals at the age of 6 

I would, she's a monster, but one of a different kind

[Canon Claude]

Well, I believe she was doomed because she’s the Mad King’s daughter, so she’s got that Targaryen taint on her. So yes, she was born bad. 

[frenin]

Cersei did too many crazy shit since the moment Tyrion was born, her mistreatment to Tyrion, her killing Melara when she was 10 makes clear that there always was something wrong with Cersei. Life pushed hard but she was rotten at an early age,

[RedDragon]

I don’t think it was a single point but the combination of a series of escalating factors that brought out the worst in Cersei. At this point it was more that everything inhibiting her has left, her father is dead, Tyrion is gone, and Jamie is avoiding her. So it’s less of us seeing her finally lose it which she has lost it it’s more like we’re seeing her act freely. 
 

I keep seeing the murder at 10 as an example of her having past the point of no return and while it is a vile act she was also 10. Cersei was 10. One more time for those in the back she was 10, what you do at 10 is not the what sets your destiny in stone. An indicator sure but the deal breaker no. 

I think we can all brain storm what has lead her to this point so I’m not really gonna go into it I just think it’s trying to fit a square peg in a triangle hole in saying the actions of a 10 y/o solidified her destiny. Bit of a gross oversimplification 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Wow, seems to be a many ideas about Cersei.  Before reading the replies, my initial response to the OP was when Joffrey died.  It's possible to cause loss and destruction for people who "mean less" than you, but it's a whole different ball of wax when it comes knocking on your door.  How often do we see clearly sociopathic people holding high positions in companies, often CEO.  Though I believe that all people are born a clean slate and all possibilities can spring forth from that little pure soul, we know all too well the things that can damage, warp and change that soul including genetics.    My honest opinion is somewhere in between.  Cersei was raised for high greatness.  There was no question of her failure.  I think that is probably exactly what sent her physically curious little self to her brother.  Jamie was sort of the only love she would be permitted to actually have.   While it's not a great choice, incest is hardly a crime between very young siblings.  I'm talking curious little kids exploring their bodies, not what became of these siblings.  Johanna didn't handle that well by contemporary standards but those don't count here do they?  So no, not there, but I think that may have been the 1st really big punishment Cersei encountered.  Johanna's death affected all the kids and Tywin to all their detriment and certainly contributed to that unclaimed madness all orphaned children feel.  Brick 2.  Cersei was a monster with infant Tyrion and this is where Jamie began to assert his will in their little world.  I think she was just acting out all the things she thought she should.  They were talking about a monster all the way in Dorne.   She may have even thought killing this baby was a good thing given the standards of her day and place.  Oberyn should have stabbed her in the hand with a spear then.  We all know the story, but this is where I quit assuming building blocks to Cersei.  

Back to the original statement about death being very different when it happens close to you.   Cersei isn't deluded about what her 1st child is and she loves him anyway.  Joffrey's death is what pushed a damaged, cruel, selfish adult Cersei over the edge.   

[Canon Claude]

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Wow, seems to be a many ideas about Cersei.  Before reading the replies, my initial response to the OP was when Joffrey died.  It's possible to cause loss and destruction for people who "mean less" than you, but it's a whole different ball of wax when it comes knocking on your door.  How often do we see clearly sociopathic people holding high positions in companies, often CEO.  Though I believe that all people are born a clean slate and all possibilities can spring forth from that little pure soul, we know all too well the things that can damage, warp and change that soul including genetics.    My honest opinion is somewhere in between.  Cersei was raised for high greatness.  There was no question of her failure.  I think that is probably exactly what sent her physically curious little self to her brother.  Jamie was sort of the only love she would be permitted to actually have.   While it's not a great choice, incest is hardly a crime between very young siblings.  I'm talking curious little kids exploring their bodies, not what became of these siblings.  Johanna didn't handle that well by contemporary standards but those don't count here do they?  So no, not there, but I think that may have been the 1st really big punishment Cersei encountered.  Johanna's death affected all the kids and Tywin to all their detriment and certainly contributed to that unclaimed madness all orphaned children feel.  Brick 2.  Cersei was a monster with infant Tyrion and this is where Jamie began to assert his will in their little world.  I think she was just acting out all the things she thought she should.  They were talking about a monster all the way in Dorne.   She may have even thought killing this baby was a good thing given the standards of her day and place.  Oberyn should have stabbed her in the hand with a spear then.  We all know the story, but this is where I quit assuming building blocks to Cersei.  

Back to the original statement about death being very different when it happens close to you.   Cersei isn't deluded about what her 1st child is and she loves him anyway.  Joffrey's death is what pushed a damaged, cruel, selfish adult Cersei over the edge.   

I must have blocked out my childhood memories of incest exploration, then, because I have no memory of that ever. And I’m glad of that because it’s just wrong to me on a fundamental level. Brothers and sisters is too close for comfort, it’s a gut reaction in our DNA. Literally. It’s been studied and there is genetic preposition in most people to avoid sexual attraction to their siblings/offspring.

Throughout human history and storytelling, incest is the go-to to portray something is inhuman and unnatural. The gods did it because they were gods, and people weren’t supposed to emulate them, only fear them. Even the point of the Egyptian pharaohs was that they could commit incest because they weren’t humans like the rest of us (even though they very much were and their genetic lines suffered badly as a result).

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Canon Claude said:

I must have blocked out my childhood memories of incest exploration, then, because I have no memory of that ever. And I’m glad of that because it’s just wrong to me on a fundamental level. Brothers and sisters is too close for comfort, it’s a gut reaction in our DNA. Literally. It’s been studied and there is genetic preposition in most people to avoid sexual attraction to their siblings/offspring.

incest is the go-to to portray something is wrong with a person. Even the point of the Egyptian pharaohs was that they could commit incest because they weren’t humans like the rest of us (even though they very much were and their genetic lines suffered badly as a result).

Not everyone has that curiosity as a child and we are talking little kids--it's not sex, it's exploration.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong merely citing this usually single experience as not entirely abnormal.  I hope you are wrong about incest defining what's wrong with a person.  Lots of children born of abuse.  Keeping the bloodlines pure is a creepy idea and I only get it on a very base level, having lived a commoner all my life.   Lots of pure bloodlines in many royal families and Pharaohs surely qualify there.   Inbreeding among the royal families was common up to the early 1900s.  ONLY 100 years ago.   Incest among consenting teenagers to adulthood is revulsive in a sex crime sort of way.  I cannot imagine a boy and girl brought up in the same home even wanting to have that sort of relationship.  

[Lord Lannister]

Well she was already gone before she started messing around with Jaime. I never thought she loved him, but that it was her having sex with a male version of herself in her head. The ultimate form of narcissism. Which i turn is why she's so brutal to Jaime whenever he deviates from her notions of what she should be doing. 

I'm inclined to say it was before she was ten. I guess you could argue if she would've killed Melara if not for the prophecy, but if it wasn't that it'd be something else. She had zero problem with killing someone to protect her interests. Probably something Tywin drilled into her at a young age.

[kissdbyfire]

Murdering Melara at the ripe old age of 10.

[Kierria]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So The Cersei we see by AFFC and ADWD is paranoid, naricisstic entitled, and an all round vile bitch. The question is, when was the point of no return, what was it that broke her, presuming she did not start out the way she did.

Was it Maggy's prophecy, marrying Robert or fucking Jaime?

My guess would be marrying Robert. Cersei was probably already an overly proud person, being raped and humiliated on a daily basis, probably screwed her up big time.

Jaime and Cersei lacked a moral compass from birth.  It's more nature in their case.  Though proper nurture and discipline would have helped.  Cersei didn't fall off the wagon.  She was never on that wagon.  Her trajectory has been on the same arc from day one.  There is nothing different to return to.  

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So The Cersei we see by AFFC and ADWD is paranoid, naricisstic entitled, and an all round vile bitch. The question is, when was the point of no return, what was it that broke her, presuming she did not start out the way she did.

Was it Maggy's prophecy, marrying Robert or fucking Jaime?

My guess would be marrying Robert. Cersei was probably already an overly proud person, being raped and humiliated on a daily basis, probably screwed her up big time.

 

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She killed her best friend at 10. I'm guessing sometime before then

 

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Cersei did too many crazy shit since the moment Tyrion was born, her mistreatment to Tyrion, her killing Melara when she was 10 makes clear that there always was something wrong with Cersei. Life pushed hard but she was rotten at an early age,

 

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Murdering Melara at the ripe old age of 10.

She killed her mother to hide her incest with Jaime. We know Joanna found out. Tyrion got the blame, poor guy. So serial killing started at 6.

Or maybe Tywin killed Joanna as Aerys was the father of Tyrion. Lot of circumstantial evidence in text for both. But crackpotty i guess

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So The Cersei we see by AFFC and ADWD is paranoid, naricisstic entitled, and an all round vile bitch. The question is, when was the point of no return, what was it that broke her, presuming she did not start out the way she did.

Was it Maggy's prophecy, marrying Robert or fucking Jaime?

My guess would be marrying Robert. Cersei was probably already an overly proud person, being raped and humiliated on a daily basis, probably screwed her up big time.

It's kind of a scattered question because there isn't likely to be a single moment for the paranoia, narcissism, entitlement and vile bitchiness. Off-hand, though, I would say the last three stem from her upbringing and that there was no point of no return when all of this suddenly became endemic to her personality.

As for the paranoia, she was always suspicious about everyone finding out about her children, which probably comes with the territory when you father your twin brother's child and pass him off as the heir to the throne. But if there was a PoNR moment for her, I would guess that it was watching her son suffocate in her arms at his wedding.