Time and Causality

[LynnS]

I think we've had a pretty big reveal, in an interview with George Martin, in a newly published book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon", by James Hibberd.  I guess it's more or less in the public domain at this point.

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GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It’s an obscenity to go into somebody’s mind. So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time. The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book, but it’s harder to explain in a show. I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical—“hold the door” with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to “hold the door” is more like “hold this pass”—defend it when enemies are coming—and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

This is especially interesting to me because I've been banging on about the events at the Skirling Pass for a while; as an example of Martin manipulating time.  I don't call it time travel.  Martin's explanation that events in the future an affect the past, seems better to me.  I would never have guessed that Hodor was connected to Bran through the dimension of time and was changed by events in the future.  When Martin says that the hold the door incident was more akin to hold the pass and that Bran went into Hodor's mind;  I think he was referring to the events at the door to Bloodraven's cave.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Hodor, stop," said Bran. "Hodor. Wait." Something was wrong. Summer smelled it, and so did he. Something bad. Something close. "Hodor, no, go back."

Coldhands was still climbing, and Hodor wanted to keep up. "Hodor, hodor, hodor," he grumbled loudly, to drown out Bran's complaints. His breathing had grown labored. Pale mist filled the air. He took a step, then another. The snow was almost waist deep and the slope was very steep. Hodor was leaning forward, grasping at rocks and trees with his hands as he climbed. Another step. Another. The snow Hodor disturbed slid downhill, starting a small avalanche behind them.

Sixty yards. Bran craned himself sideways to better see the cave. Then he saw something else. "A fire!" In the little cleft between the weirwood trees was a flickering glow, a ruddy light calling through the gathering gloom. "Look, someone—"

Hodor screamed. He twisted, stumbled, fell.

Bran felt the world slide sideways as the big stableboy spun violently around. A jarring impact drove the breath from him. His mouth was full of blood and Hodor was thrashing and rolling, crushing the crippled boy beneath him.

Something has hold of his leg. For half a heartbeat Bran thought maybe a root had gotten tangled round his ankle … until the root moved. A hand, he saw, as the rest of the wight came bursting from beneath the snow.

Hodor kicked at it, slamming a snow-covered heel full into the thing's face, but the dead man did not even seem to feel it. Then the two of them were grappling, punching and clawing at each other, sliding down the hill. Snow filled Bran's mouth and nose as they rolled over, but in a half a heartbeat he was rolling up again. Something slammed against his head, a rock or a chunk of ice or a dead man's fist, he could not tell, and he found himself out of his basket, sprawled across the hillside, spitting snow, his gloved hand full of hair that he'd torn from Hodor's head.

All around him, wights were rising from beneath the snow.

Two, three, four. Bran lost count. They surged up violently amidst sudden clouds of snow. Some wore black cloaks, some ragged skins, some nothing. All of them had pale flesh and black hands. Their eyes glowed like pale blue stars.

Three of them descended on the ranger. Bran saw Coldhands slash one across the face. The thing kept right on coming, driving him back into the arms of another. Two more were going after Hodor, lumbering clumsily down the slope. Meera was going to climb right into this, Bran realized, with a sick sense of helpless terror. He smashed the snow and shouted out a warning.

Something grabbed hold of him.

That was when his shout became a scream. Bran filled a fist with snow and threw it, but the wight did not so much as blink. A black hand fumbled at his face, another at his belly. Its fingers felt like iron. He's going to pull my guts out.

But suddenly Summer was between them. Bran glimpsed skin tear like cheap cloth, heard the splintering of bone. He saw a hand and wrist rip loose, pale fingers wriggling, the sleeve faded black roughspun. Black, he thought, he's wearing black, he was one of the Watch. Summer flung the arm aside, twisted, and sank his teeth into the dead man's neck under the chin. When the big grey wolf wrenched free, he took most of the creature's throat out in an explosion of pale rotten meat.

The severed hand was still moving. Bran rolled away from it. On his belly, clawing at the snow, he glimpsed the trees above, pale and snow-cloaked, the orange glow between.

Fifty yards. If he could drag himself fifty yards, they could not get him. Damp seeped through his gloves as he clutched at roots and rocks, crawling toward the light. A little farther, just a little farther. Then you can rest beside the fire.

The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he'd brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him. If I can reach that cave …

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away, bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back. "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down. Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR!" he bellowed.

Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy. "Hodor," Hodor said with every step. "Hodor, hodor." He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

Up above them, flaming figures were dancing in the snow.

The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire.

Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn't get so close, what is he doing? Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer's skin? Or will I just be dead?

 

I think this is the event where Bran went into Hodor's mind so powerfully, it broke Hodor's mind in the past.   

Besides Hodor and the Skirling Pass, I think there is another incident of time manipulation that we could define as deja vu.  

To be continued...

 

[LynnS]

Another incident occurs in Tyrion's POV.  I don't think this has anything to do with Bran, although I do think that Martin is clueing the reader into the concepts of the Einstein-Rosen Bridge and what principles he is substituting as magic,  I won't quote the whole text, I'll just summarize.

Tyrion is travelling on the river with Griff and company.  The section of the river they travel is full of ruins.  It's misty and foggy and Ysilla says there is sorcery about.  They pass a stone hand with two fingers rising out of the water, various ruins and they pass beneath the Stone Bridge or the Bridge of Sorrows as it is know.  They pass without incident but as they continue to travel they pass the stone hand again and repeat the journey to the Stone Bridge where they are attacked,  They explain this deja-vu like incident to the unpredictable currents and eddies of the rive returning the travellers to the near-past.

Credit to Ravenous Reader for pointing out that Einstein translates from the German to one stone  and the stone bridge might be a reference to the Einstein- Rosen Bridge.   That was years ago and we didn't know what to make of it.  RR was bang-on.

You can read some of the science here, but I'll just pull out science as magic below:

https://galnet.fandom.com/wiki/Einstein-Rosen_bridge 

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It was Austrian Ludwig Flamm who had realised that Schwarzschild's solution (called the Schwarzschild Metric) to Einstein's equations actually describes a wormhole connecting two regions of flat space-time; two universes, or two parts of the same universe.

A white hole (from the negative square root solution inside the horizon) is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so white holes spit them out. However white holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics[8].

General Relativity is time symmetric. It does not know about the second law of thermodynamics, and it does not know about which way cause and effect go. However we do. The negative square root solution outside the horizon represents another Universe. The wormhole joining the two separate Universes is known as the Einstein-Rosen Bridge.

The purpose of the paper of Einstein and Rosen was not to promote faster-than-light or inter-universe travel, but to attempt to explain fundamental particles like electrons as space-tunnels threaded by electric lines of force.

So as you approach a black hole, time is warped and subject to unpredictable currents and eddies.   I don't think the stone bridge is a blackhole/white hole but I think we are being pointed in that direction.  The black hole that devours and the white hole that sometimes spits out stuff sounds a bit like the god Trios. 

Martin says that the weirwood and we can add greenseer; don't experience time as men do.  Men experience the river of time moving only in one direction from the present.  The weirwood experience past, present and future simultaneously.  I imagine that as the river of time is stopped or doesn't move and Bran can drop in at any point creating waves and echoes to the past.  Where Bran dreams of his future self  talking to Jon at the Skirling Pass from his future, after Bran has been wed to the tree.  Bran's perception of time cannot have changed until then.

I think of this as memories of the future.  If you have seen Star Trek Discovery season two;  they are using the same device.  Spock has a vision of the seven red bursts before they occur.  Time has become fluid instead of running logically in one direction. 

In Hodor's case he is not only affected in the past, he has a connection to Bran not unlike the direwolves.  Their souls are bonded.  Bran recognizes this when when he asks what would happen if he died.  Would he go into Hodor or Summer.  This soul bonding changes Hodor's perception of time as well.  Hodor is tethered to Bran threaded by electric lines of force. Hodor is afraid at certain time according to Martin.  During electrical storms and when Bran takes over his mind.

The question, I've been asking myself is if Bran's connection to Jon (through Ghost) and potentially to Arya will affect their perception of time as well.  Is there anything in the text that could so indicate?  I think there might be something with Arya.

To be continued... 

 

[LynnS]

In the interview with James Hibberd.  Martin asks about the nature of Bran's powers.  We know that in the case with Hodor, that Bran affects Hodo,r  in the past because of the psychic connection, they share a part of each others soul.  

Bran can enter Jon's wolf dream and communicate with him.  He can also touch Jon's third eye using Ghost as a conduit.  It follows that Bran can do this with all his siblings.  If we are asking about Bran's powers, we should also ask about the powers that belong to Jon, Arya, baby Rickon and Sansa.  

If the lone wolf cannot survive, how do they become a pack?  How do they help each other survive?

Here is what Bran says:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

Here is what Arya says:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya X

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried. Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

Arya's POV ina CoK is full of references to flying and what she would do if she could fly.  More importantly, Flying as high as the moon and looking at all the world is what happens in Bran's coma dream  where hr must fly or die, where he is shown the heart of winter and the reason he must live.

At the end of Brans dream, when he begins to wake and the veil is ripped apart, he almost gets a glimpse of the one who is disguised as a crow:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

"What are you doing?" he shrieked.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, "He's awake, he's awake, he's awake."

 The 3EC is really a woman, someone he knows from Winterfell.  He gets a glimpse of her before the dream of the crow resolves into  a serving woman from Winterfell and the dream fades away..

I've puzzled over the identity for a long time.  First as Bloodraven, then as Jon, but it now seems feasible that the 3EC is Arya from sometime in her future.

If this is true. the larger question is what do the Faceless Men or their god of many faces have to do with the Starks and the North. They have had a claim on Arya from the start.

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A Game of Thrones - Arya I

Nymeria nipped eagerly at her hand as Arya untied her. She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins. Arya had named her after the warrior queen of the Rhoyne, who had led her people across the narrow sea. That had been a great scandal too. Sansa, of course, had named her pup "Lady." Arya made a face and hugged the wolfling tight. Nymeria licked her ear, and she giggled.

What, if anything do the FM have to do with the Others:

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon  with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods  of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest.

For years we have discussed the GoT, the Song of Fire but we've barely touched on the Song of Ice.

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

He was surprised at how low the candle had burned. Had the bean-and-bacon soup been today or yesterday? Yesterday. It must have been yesterday. The realization made him yawn. Jon would be wondering what had become of him, though Maester Aemon would no doubt understand. Before he had lost his sight, the maester had loved books as much as Samwell Tarly did. He understood the way that you could sometimes fall right into them, as if each page was a hole into another world.

So what do you think?  Is the game afoot?  The floor is yours.

Edited to include referenced reading:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136291-visions-in-a-wolf-dream-bran-reaches-jon-vii-chapter-53-a-clash-of-kings/

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/moon_visions/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143775-an-old-nan-comment-jumps-out-at-me-thoughts-on-brans-arc-and-a-cracking-idea-on-bran-from-another-poster/ 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Holy cow, LynnS.  Wow.  A couple of idea bombs dropped in the OP.  You have made a reasonable argument for Hodor's past and future disposition being influenced by a present action.  I had to think about that twice because everyone knows you go back or forth with the in between being something of a tether to time.   You could not have summoned a more convincing point in the present where this might have happened.  It's got all the ingredients and I applaud this really twisted connection.   Curiously, I get it.   

I like what you did with Bran's waking and Arya's potential time skipping.  That anyone beyond Bran would actually take a trip to sometime else never occurred to me.  But I do want to talk about Arya and Jon and Baby Rickon and Bran...and Sansa.  This is the whole pack, one without a bond beast.  I will get back to the Bran/Hodor bond because that blew my mind.   I don't see any particular magic in Sansa.  You pointed out her growing betterness at very non-magical business, survival, manipulation, dare I say campaigning a little bit?   While I can appreciate that AGOT Sansa sure needed a magical boost of confidence or machismo, I'm not sure she's reached this increasingly impressive level due to anything magical.  As you say it could be subtle and the correct weight hammer simply hasn't yet hit me.   I don't mean to drone on to make a point or discard yours, only to draw a real conversation out of both.  Martin says Sansa is a magical--i believe the statement was "All the Stark kids are wargs".  That's a curious thing to put out there if we never see Sansa bond with another creature.  In my humble opinion.  Of course Sansa never encountering another bond animal makes her rise maybe more precious than her siblings'--entirely her gig, no howling to wake her up when ice zombies are coming, no dream sustenance, no supernatural spying.  I think that's delicious and still find the statement that all the kids are wargs weird.  The pack is not complete without Sansa so long as she lives.  I believe you tossed out a connection with The Hound, which I immediately thought, well yah, but not the same as a warg bond.  

Which brings me to the Hodor/Bran bond.  Maybe that is the same with The Hound and Sansa, sorta.  We have to consider that neither Arya nor Sansa had their wolves long enough to become conscious of the magic.  So here is Arya in Hogwarts, magic pouring and and out of her.   I don't think she knows she's traveling with Nymeria as she calls herself the Night Wolf, but I'm sure she will eventually.   So Sansa and Lady had this thing where they understood their stations with each other.   Not at all like Bran and Hodor, but I am trying.   Part of the Lady/Sansa bond was behavioral, duh, which makes me reexamine your Hound connection with a different understanding.  Sansa was very brave with that scary man and I think she may have given him something to believe in himself for.  I think he saw himself as maybe saving the damsel in distress in the trope-iest way.  Like an infection.  Sansa's sweet nobility infected him to see the things a true knight might see.  Man I like that.  

I have been watching @The Green Bard's youtube series on the warg bonds with the kids and pups.  I would love to see him take a stab at the Bran/Hodor bond.  We know that Hodor cowers from Bran during these er visits and we know Bran is fully aware of how Hodor feels.  Hodor isn't broken at all.  He lost his words and individuality (read will here) and will always be part Bran.  Sort of an inverse of what Hagon tells Varymyr.  That's fascinating.  

[MissM]

On 11/8/2020 at 11:28 AM, LynnS said:

In the interview with James Hibberd.  Martin asks about the nature of Bran's powers.  We know that in the case with Hodor, that Bran affects Hodo,r  in the past because of the psychic connection, they share a part of each others soul.  

Bran can enter Jon's wolf dream and communicate with him.  He can also touch Jon's third eye using Ghost as a conduit.  It follows that Bran can do this with all his siblings.  If we are asking about Bran's powers, we should also ask about the powers that belong to Jon, Arya and baby Rickon.  

If the lone wolf cannot survive, how do they become a pack?  How do they help each other survive?

Here is what Bran says:

Here is what Arya says:

Arya's POV ina CoK is full of references to flying and what she would do if she could fly.  More importantly, Flying as high as the moon and looking at all the world is what happens in Bran's coma dream  where hr must fly or die, where he is shown the heart of winter and the reason he must live.

At the end of Brans dream, when he begins to wake and the veil is ripped apart, he almost gets a glimpse of the one who is disguised as a crow:

 The 3EC is really a woman, someone he knows from Winterfell.  He gets a glimpse of her before the dream of the crow resolves into  a serving woman from Winterfell and the dream fades away..

I've puzzled over the identity for a long time.  First as Bloodraven, then as Jon, but it now seems feasible that the 3EC is Arya from sometime in her future.

If this is true. the larger question is what do the Faceless Men or their god of many faces have to do with the Starks and the North. They have had a claim on Arya from the start.

What, if anything do the FM have to do with the Others:

For years we have discussed the GoT, the Song of Fire but we've barely touched on the Song of Ice.

So what do you think?  Is the game afoot?  The floor is yours.

Interesting connection. What are your thoughts on these passages from ACoK:

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 Sometimes the maester's ravens joined the feast as well, flapping down from the rookery on wide black wings. When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.

Do the ravens remember Maester Tothmure? Arya wondered. Are they sad for him? When they quork at him, do they wonder why he doesn't answer? Perhaps the dead could speak to them in some secret tongue the living could not hear. - Arya, ACoK

 

 

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A mummer tree, Arya thought as she watched them dangle, their pale skins painted a sullen red by the flames of the burning septry. Already the crows were coming, appearing out of nowhere. She heard them croaking and cackling at one another, and wondered what they were saying.  - Arya, ASOS

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The crows were there too, screaming at the wolves and filling the air with feathers. Their blood was hotter, and one of her sisters had snapped at one as it took flight and caught it by the wing. It made her want a crow herself. She wanted to taste the blood, to hear the bones crunch between her teeth, to fill her belly with warm flesh instead of cold. - Arya, ASOS

And also here:

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Mercy had a pretty smile, and a certain grace. Even Izembaro agreed that she was graceful. She was not far from the Gate as the crows flies, but for girls with feet instead of wings the way was longer. - Mercy, TWOW

 

 

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Holy cow, LynnS.  Wow.  A couple of idea bombs dropped in the OP.  You have made a reasonable argument for Hodor's past and future disposition being influenced by a present action.  I had to think about that twice because everyone knows you go back or forth with the in between being something of a tether to time.   You could not have summoned a more convincing point in the present where this might have happened.  It's got all the ingredients and I applaud this really twisted connection.   Curiously, I get it. 

My goodness,, thank you.  A few things have been thrown into the mix and hopefully interested forum members can choose something that appeals to discuss. Martin's reveal about Hodor was quite a surprise to me. I have been wondering about the incident at BR's cave for a long time. It stands out.  Suddenly Bran is Hodor,  Seven feet of rage and fury, fearless, dispatching the wights with ease.  In the end exhilarated, exalted, in love with Meera. 

We have been given a different frame to interpret this incident and others not so obvious.  I like your term time-skipping to describe this magic.  We don't have a vocabulary to describe Martin's experiments with time and causality.  Time Lord doesn't fit but it's the most familiar.  Of course I can see why readers would object.

I think there are limitations.  Bran cannot go back and change the past or talk to dead people.  I think he can only interact or influence events  drectly through others; people who are alive in his timeline, his siblings or others with some power related to the old gods.  I think this includes Howland Reed.

Sansa has been cut off from her siblings when she loses her direwolf but she has a destiny.  There are two parallels between Sansa and Bran.

North and North and North:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Sansa VI

From the high battlements of the gatehouse, the whole world spread out below them. Sansa could see the Great Sept of Baelor on Visenya's hill, where her father had died. At the other end of the Street of the Sisters stood the fire-blackened ruins of the Dragonpit. To the west, the swollen red sun was half-hidden behind the Gate of the Gods. The salt sea was at her back, and to the south was the fish market and the docks and the swirling torrent of the Blackwater Rush. And to the north …

She turned that way, and saw only the city, streets and alleys and hills and bottoms and more streets and more alleys and the stone of distant walls. Yet she knew that beyond them was open country, farms and fields and forests, and beyond that, north and north and north again, stood Winterfell.

Sansa is also surveying the world around her and while Bran's destiny involves the heart of winter, north and north and north;  Sansa's destiny is Winterfell.

Another parallel involves communion:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

Her maid rolled herself more tightly in her blanket as the snow began to drift in the window. Sansa eased open the door, and made her way down the winding stair. When she opened the door to the garden, it was so lovely that she held her breath, unwilling to disturb such perfect beauty. The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover's kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. It was the old days she hungered for. Prayed for. But who could she pray to? The garden had been meant for a godswood once, she knew, but the soil was too thin and stony for a weirwood to take root. A godswood without gods, as empty as me.

Something strange has happened here, Sansa closes her eyes, tastes the snowflakes and loses time.  When she opens her eyes, she doesn't remember falling.  

(I'll save this post and come back to it later.)

ETA:You are correct, Sansa is a warg without a bond beast and she has a third eye of which she is unaware. I think this does give her some magic by default.  I have corrected the OP. You mentioned that Sansa has the subconscious power to make people love her.  I think this is true and I think it's key.  Jojen says that if love and hate can mate, the land will be one.  The healing of the seven kingdoms, making the land one, is in Sansa's hands.. This is why she is so precious.  We have an example of this magic, turning hate to love, with Sandor.

All of the Stark kids are apprentices of one sort.  Jon is an pprentice lord commander, Arya, to the faceless men, Bran, an apprentice greenseer, Rickon may have something to do with the Isle of Faces and the green men.  Sansa's apprenticeship is with Littlefinger and how to survive the game of thrones.  

    

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, MissM said:

What are your thoughts on these passages from ACoK:

Hello Freerider.  Thank you for joining the conversation.  Arya's POV is interesting for it's many references to flying.  I've noticed something similar  in Jon's POV regarding swords, Sam's POV regarding horns and even Jaime's POV regarding shields.

These quotes from Arya are especially interesting to me because of that wiley old bird, Mormont's Raven, saying things and acting in ways that you would least expect.  Instructing Jon to burn, burn, burn Othor when he attacks Jon in GoT.  The bird doesn't just repeat things, it seems to understand the conversation.  It sticks to Mormont and later to Jon like glue. 

I've started to wonder if Arya keeps track of Jon as Mormont's raven and if she is the 3EC.

30 minutes ago, MissM said:

 Sometimes the maester's ravens joined the feast as well, flapping down from the rookery on wide black wings. When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.

Do the ravens remember Maester Tothmure? Arya wondered. Are they sad for him? When they quork at him, do they wonder why he doesn't answer? Perhaps the dead could speak to them in some secret tongue the living could not hear. - Arya, ACoK

 This reminds me of Coldhands.  A dead guy who speaks to the ravens and crows in some secret tongue.  I wonder if there is some foreshadowing here regarding Jon and if Arya can speak 'to the dead' using a raven or crow.

34 minutes ago, MissM said:

Quote

A mummer tree, Arya thought as she watched them dangle, their pale skins painted a sullen red by the flames of the burning septry. Already the crows were coming, appearing out of nowhere. She heard them croaking and cackling at one another, and wondered what they were saying.  - Arya, ASOS

Quote

The crows were there too, screaming at the wolves and filling the air with feathers. Their blood was hotter, and one of her sisters had snapped at one as it took flight and caught it by the wing. It made her want a crow herself. She wanted to taste the blood, to hear the bones crunch between her teeth, to fill her belly with warm flesh instead of cold. - Arya, ASOS

Arya's insatiable curiosity about the crow, what they are saying, the secret language, all seems to point in one direction.  That she will learn all these things and become a crow at some point.   

I seem to have lost the last quote from the Mercy chapter.  Going by wing is a lot faster than going by foot.  Going back to Westeros is likely, both by wing and by foot.

In Martin's latest blog post, he talks about writing chapters, passages, sentences and even just one word.  I think we should pay attention to the word "cackling". 

[Seams]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Arya's insatiable curiosity about the crow, what they are saying, the secret language, all seems to point in one direction.  That she will learn all these things and become a crow at some point.   

You bring out another important motif with your post and the excerpts: underground vs. towers. Sansa is emerging from a tower when she goes out into the snow; Bran goes into a well and under the Wall and is eventually attacked by things coming from under the snow; Arya is often underground at the House of Black and White and she is interacting with canals throughout Braavos - learning to cross them, where they lead, throwing people and things into them.

In light of your comment here, it makes sense to think about Arya throwing the singer Dareon into a canal: Dareon is a Crow, a deserter and a singer. I think Arya is not just discarding things when she throws them into the canals, she is making a stew. The stew may represent ingredients in the self she is becoming, so Dareon's death in the canal contributes an element of her being that - you demonstrate - she has longed for.

In addition to the death of the singer, there also seems to be a set of symbols around loose or lost tongues or people (such as Hodor) who can't really speak. Maybe a silent character is a clue for us about which characters are affected by these time loop anomalies.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

The walls of Winterfell are described more than once, iirc, as curtain walls. This is a term usually associated with modern architecture, from what little I know of architecture, and indicates that the structural weight of a building is carried by steel beams instead of by its walls. But GRRM had a reason for using the term to describe Winterfell's stone walls, and I think it had to do with curtains being made of fabric and fabric being something that can be torn. A "fell" is another word for a seam in fabric that has been sewn in a certain way.

Interesting that Jon Snow uses a burning curtain to subdue the attacking Othor. Or is it the burning curtain that injures Jon's hand? Or both?

But I would also note here that Bran concludes by noting the burn on his cheek. This has to be a Sandor Clegane allusion. Sandor was burned as punishment for playing with his brother's marvelous wooden knight. Here we see Bran's cheek burned when he dares to look at the heart of winter. (I wonder whether this compares to Bran daring to look at Jaime and Cersei having sex? His hubris was punished in that instance as well.)

I'm still thinking about a lot of the other great insights in the post and subsequent comments. This opens up a whole new set of clues for us to follow. Very nice work.

[Melifeather]

As you may already know, I DO believe Bran IS a time traveler, and I believe he was motivated to do so to prevent Jon's death by the Magnar of Thenn at Queenscrown, which is quite a bit earlier in the story than when they reach the cave of skulls. Its quite clear when Walder became Hodor - it was during the thunderstorm at Queenscrown:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran III

Grey gloom filled the tower, and slowly changed to darkness. Hodor grew restless and walked awhile, striding round and round the walls and stopping to peer into the privy on every circuit, as if he had forgotten what was in there. Jojen stood by the north balcony, hidden by the shadows, looking out at the night and the rain. Somewhere to the north a lightning bolt crackled across the sky, brightening the inside of the tower for an instant. Hodor jumped and made a frightened noise. Bran counted to eight, waiting for the thunder. When it came, Hodor shouted, "Hodor!"

I believe GRRM has copied a scene from H.G. Wells' novel, The Time Machine. In that story the traveler goes back in time to save his fiancé's life at the hands of an armed robber. He enters a period of time just a few minutes before the robbery and intentionally avoids the park where the robbery took place. He instead guides his fiancé to a main street and has her wait on the sidewalk while he buys flowers. She's struck and killed by a runaway carriage thereby proving that while he was able to change some things, he could not prevent her death. I believe GRRM has done the same thing with Bran and Jon. I suspect Jon was killed by "his own men" - the wildlings - at Queenscrown, but Bran went back to that time and used Summer to attack the wildlings giving Jon an opportunity to get away and ride for the Wall. But while Jon does live a few months longer, even long enough to become Lord Commander, Bran was not able to prevent Jon from being killed by his own men. Even the men of the Watch that stabbed him seemed confused as to why they were doing it! 

I have a longer essay that discusses this theory further: https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/19769/thread

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm still thinking about a lot of the other great insights in the post and subsequent comments. This opens up a whole new set of clues for us to follow. Very nice work.

Seams! How good it is to hear from you.  When I saw that you were here, I had to make a pot of earl grey tea, so I could sit down relish your delicious post.  I'm very happy that the OP opens up new lines of inquiry for members such as yourself.  That alone gives me a lot of pleasure.  I struggle with writing OP's.  I have to push myself to come up to the mark left by other members like yourself, Curled Finger, Sweetsunray, and Melifeather, to name a few.

To your comment about spiral staircases going up and down, Danaerys is also instructed to take only the stairs on the right, leading upwards in the House of Undying.  

Sansa's place t the Eyrie seems devoid of gods an empty place inside her.  And yet there is all kinds of godly imagery.

First she passes through the Vale (veil) to the Mountains of the Moon (flying to the high places of the moon).  She passes the Bloody Gate with it's knight challenger," who goes there" (the Black Gate) and reaches the Gates of the Moon (Weirwoods); passes through the waycastles , Stone, Snow and Sky until she reaches the Giant's Lance and the Eyrie (as high as the moon) with it's uprooted weirwood throne and moon door, where you fly and die (failed greenseers).

Sansa's journey follows Bran's journey in a sense but in a very different way.  I wonder about the duality between north and north and north.  That whatever lies in the heart of winter is connected to the heart of Winterfell.  Something that will involve both Bran and Sansa.

It's interesting that a fell has an analogue to weaving or cloth making.  Weaving and sewing are analogues for magic in this story.  I think we have discussed Sweetrobin's cloth doll, that he uses to smash Sansa's snow replica of Winterfell.  Bestrding the walls like a giant.  

Another feature of this place is the broken statue and I wonder if this reflects Sansa's current state of mind or if it foreshadows something that will happen to Sansa.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

In light of your comment here, it makes sense to think about Arya throwing the singer Dareon into a canal: Dareon is a Crow, a deserter and a singer. I think Arya is not just discarding things when she throws them into the canals, she is making a stew. The stew may represent ingredients in the self she is becoming, so Dareon's death in the canal contributes an element of her being that - you demonstrate - she has longed for.

Hah! I like this.  Arya making a stew reminds me of the GOHH encounter with Arya:

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now.

The Medusa figure is Arya and the feast is referring to the weasel soup episode, 

Arya making a stew out of the canals of Braavos just makes laugh because it fits Arya to a fault.  Although she does pull Samwell out of the stew.  

I''m going to save here because my PC's a bit wonky...  More tea.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

As you may already know, I DO believe Bran IS a time traveler, and I believe he was motivated to do so to prevent Jon's death by the Magnar of Thenn at Queenscrown, which is quite a bit earlier in the story than when they reach the cave of skulls. Its quite clear when Walder became Hodor - it was during the thunderstorm at Queenscrown:

Hello Feather,  Thanks for joining in.  We differ on when Bran becomes a time lord or what that term means specifically. I think you have to explain what you mean by time  lord or people are going to think you mean the popular tv show.  

I maintain that Bran's perception of time doesn't change to fluidic time until he reaches BR's cave and is wed to the tree.  Walder becomes Hodor before Bran is actually born.  Bran didn't know that Hodor was once called Walder, he has only ever known him as Hodor.  

I think Hodor experiences the future event at the cave of skulls on the day that Bran is born.  He is the dark angel who will follow Bran through life from that point onwards 

At Queenscrown, we learn that Hodor is afraid of electrical storms and this brings to mind Old Nan's story of the boy who climbed too high (in a tree) and was struck by lightening.  He may have been close to death for the crows to come and peck at his eyes.  This might be a story about Hodor rather than Bran.  Bran isn't struck by lightening, he's pushed out a window.

Bran's internal experience in warging Hodor at Queenscrown is nothing like his experience at the cave of skulls.  Martin says this powerful experience is more about holding the pass, than holding the door.  I don't see where Bran is holding the pass at Queenscrown.

I'm not sure that Future Bran is using Summer to save Jon.  It looks more to me like Bran is warging Summer the next day when he sees Jon and the wildlings.  He does intervene to save Jon's life.  Sorry, I don't see a timeslip event.

I am intrigued by the idea that our Bran is actually all the other Brans, at least Bran the Builder and Bran the Breaker to name a few. I think this is a possibility.

I agree that Martin is repurposing the Time Machine in his story.  Rather than using a throne that looks like something Elton John woul drive through a swap; he's using the wierwood  throne to look through recorded history and to use as a psychic portal to reach the living..  People might also want to look at the Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut for other things that have bee repurposed.

Thank you for posting a link to your essay.  It's interesting reading and I encourage people to read it.    

  

 

 

[Melifeather]

52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hello Feather,  Thanks for joining in.  We differ on when Bran becomes a time lord or what that term means specifically. I think you have to explain what you mean by time  lord or people are going to think you mean the popular tv show.  

I maintain that Bran's perception of time doesn't change to fluidic time until he reaches BR's cave and is wed to the tree.  Walder becomes Hodor before Bran is actually born.  Bran didn't know that Hodor was once called Walder, he has only ever known him as Hodor.  

I think Hodor experiences the future event at the cave of skulls on the day that Bran is born.  He is the dark angel who will follow Bran through life from that point onwards 

At Queenscrown, we learn that Hodor is afraid of electrical storms and this brings to mind Old Nan's story of the boy who climbed too high and was struck by lightening.  He may have been close to death for the crows to come and peck at his eyes.  This might be a story about Hodor rather than Bran.  Bran isn't struck by lightening, he's pushed out a window.

Bran's internal experience in warging Hodor at Queenscrown is nothing like his experience at the cave of skulls.  Martin says this powerful experience is more about holding the pass, than holding the door.  I don't see where Bran is holding the pass at Queenscrown.

I'm not sure that Future Bran is using Summer to save Jon.  It looks more to me like Bran is warging Summer the next day when he sees Jon and the wildlings.  He does intervene to save Jon's life.  Sorry, I don't see a timeslip event.

I am intrigued by the idea that our Bran is actually all the other Brans, at least Bran the Builder and Bran the Breaker to name a few. I think this is a possibility.

I agree that Martin is repurposing the Time Machine in his story.  Rather than using a throne that looks like something Elton John woul drive through a swap; he's using the wierwood  throne to look through recorded history and to use as a psychic portal to reach the living..  People might also want to look at the Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut for other things that have bee repurposed.

Thank you for posting a link to your essay.  It's interesting reading and I encourage people to read it.    

 

 

I'm just using the title "lord" in the usual way - it is an appellation for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others, acting like a master, a chief, or a ruler. Thus Bran is the master over time.

GRRM has given us the rules, per se, of time travel. The rules would be the same as they are for the weirwood trees. Past, present, and future are fluid. The acorn is the tree and the tree is the acorn, thus even if Walder didn't become Hodor until Queenscrown, he would always be Hodor.   

Bran is the one that tells us about the first time he skinchanged Hodor:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.

The "pass" that Bran BROKE was control over Walder's body. Walder tried to keep Bran out - this is what GRRM meant by holding a pass. When skinchanging occurs the skinchanger passes their consciousness - or spirit - into the body of the host. The show chose to demonstrate Hodor holding back a door, but in the books it was a passage into another human like what also occurred between Varamyr and Thistle. Thistle fought hard to keep Varamyr out, and I believe the fight for control killed her. The first time Bran skinchanged Hodor, Hodor fought back. Bran said Hodor no longer fought him - he was like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him. It was a traumatic experience that Hodor associates with thunderstorms. He even took up a sword to "fight the storm" - in other words, to fight Bran off:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran III

I hope Summer isn't scared too, Bran thought. The dogs in Winterfell's kennels had always been spooked by thunderstorms, just like Hodor. I should go see, to calm him . . .

The lightning flashed again, and this time the thunder came at six. "Hodor!" Hodor yelled again. "HODOR! HODOR!" He snatched up his sword, as if to fight the storm.

Jojen said, "Be quiet, Hodor. Bran, tell him not to shout. Can you get the sword away from him, Meera?”

The evidence that Bran helped Jon was the furious lightning bolt that struck the Queenscrown tower:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"I'm no crow wife!" Ygritte snatched her knife from its sheath. Three quick strides, and she yanked the old man's head back by the hair and opened his throat from ear to ear. Even in death, the man did not cry out. "You know nothing, Jon Snow!" she shouted at him, and flung the bloody blade at his feet.

The Magnar said something in the Old Tongue. He might have been telling the Thenns to kill Jon where he stood, but he would never know the truth of that. Lightning crashed down from the sky, a searing blue-white bolt that touched the top of the tower in the lake. They could smell the fury of it, and when the thunder came it seemed to shake the night.

And death leapt down amongst them.

The lightning flash left Jon night-blind, but he glimpsed the hurtling shadow half a heartbeat before he heard the shriek. The first Thenn died as the old man had, blood gushing from his torn throat. Then the light was gone and the shape was spinning away, snarling, and another man went down in the dark. There were curses, shouts, howls of pain. Jon saw Big Boil stumble backward and knock down three men behind him. Ghost, he thought for one mad instant. Ghost leapt the Wall. Then the lightning turned the night to day, and he saw the wolf standing on Del's chest, blood running black from his jaws. Grey. He's grey.

Darkness descended with the thunderclap. The Thenns were jabbing with their spears as the wolf darted between them. The old man's mare reared, maddened by the smell of slaughter, and lashed out with her hooves. Longclaw was still in his hand. All at once Jon Snow knew he would never get a better chance.

Grey. He's grey. Jon's grey brother is Bran.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

I realize my answers include reusing some of the same passages from my thread, but they are the best evidence to support the theory - and they are in the same order as your comments above.
 

 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The "pass" that Bran BROKE was control over Walder's body. Walder tried to keep Bran out - this is what GRRM meant by holding a pass. When skinchanging occurs the skinchanger passes their consciousness - or spirit - into the body of the host. The show chose to demonstrate Hodor holding back a door, but in the books it was a passage into another human like what also occurred between Varamyr and Thistle. Thistle fought hard to keep Varamyr out, and I believe the fight for control killed her. The first time Bran skinchanged Hodor, Hodor fought back. Bran said Hodor no longer fought him - he was like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him. It was a traumatic experience that Hodor associates with thunderstorms. He even took up a sword to "fight the storm" - in other words, to fight Bran off:

I do like this explanation.  Hodor is holding the door to his mind closed.  That would make sense.  Although Martin says that is the repeated entry into Hodor's mind that weakens him.  The playing at swords.  This reminds me of conversations about Euron invading the minds of his bother's and the sound of screaming iron doors.

However, in the context of the show. they used the event at the cave of skulls.  Since we have something in the text that also points to the pass here;  I'm still inclined to stick with my first assumption;  that this the event that Martin refers to.

But I do accept an alternate explanation as a choice.  Well done Feather! 

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I do like this explanation.  Hodor is holding the door to his mind closed.  That would make sense.  Although Martin says that is the repeated entry into Hodor's mind that weakens him.  The playing at swords.  This reminds me of conversations about Euron invading the minds of his bother's and the sound of screaming iron doors.

However, in the context of the show. they used the event at the cave of skulls.  Since we have something in the text that also points to the pass here;  I'm still inclined to stick with my first assumption;  that this the event that Martin refers to.

But I do accept an alternate explanation as a choice.  Well done Feather! 

You are a very gracious host! Just keep in mind all the things the show did different than in the books!

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

You bring out another important motif with your post and the excerpts: underground vs. towers. Sansa is emerging from a tower when she goes out into the snow; Bran goes into a well and under the Wall and is eventually attacked by things coming from under the snow; Arya is often underground at the House of Black and White and she is interacting with canals throughout Braavos - learning to cross them, where they lead, throwing people and things into them.

In light of your comment here, it makes sense to think about Arya throwing the singer Dareon into a canal: Dareon is a Crow, a deserter and a singer. I think Arya is not just discarding things when she throws them into the canals, she is making a stew. The stew may represent ingredients in the self she is becoming, so Dareon's death in the canal contributes an element of her being that - you demonstrate - she has longed for.

In addition to the death of the singer, there also seems to be a set of symbols around loose or lost tongues or people (such as Hodor) who can't really speak. Maybe a silent character is a clue for us about which characters are affected by these time loop anomalies.

The walls of Winterfell are described more than once, iirc, as curtain walls. This is a term usually associated with modern architecture, from what little I know of architecture, and indicates that the structural weight of a building is carried by steel beams instead of by its walls. But GRRM had a reason for using the term to describe Winterfell's stone walls, and I think it had to do with curtains being made of fabric and fabric being something that can be torn. A "fell" is another word for a seam in fabric that has been sewn in a certain way.

Interesting that Jon Snow uses a burning curtain to subdue the attacking Othor. Or is it the burning curtain that injures Jon's hand? Or both?

But I would also note here that Bran concludes by noting the burn on his cheek. This has to be a Sandor Clegane allusion. Sandor was burned as punishment for playing with his brother's marvelous wooden knight. Here we see Bran's cheek burned when he dares to look at the heart of winter. (I wonder whether this compares to Bran daring to look at Jaime and Cersei having sex? His hubris was punished in that instance as well.)

I'm still thinking about a lot of the other great insights in the post and subsequent comments. This opens up a whole new set of clues for us to follow. Very nice work.

Heck yes!

[Curled Finger]

Hey @LynnS & @Melifeather--

I read the OP 3 times before I actually replied as I was instantly lost in the event chosen because it wasn't the first time Bran visited Hodor.  Now, as a big swords fan I have spent some time considering Bran and Hodor's expertise and effectiveness with weapons.  (Sorry, Ladies, this rambling is usually how I get to a place.)  Somewhere midway the 2nd reread of the OP I remembered that Hodor sort of practices with his sword.  I don't have any text pointing to Bran visiting at the time so I have to think this practice or at least becoming comfortable with the sword is Hodor's idea or motivation.  Top of the 3rd reread I began to understand that Bran has to learn how to practice his new skill too.  Queensgate was the introduction and the cave entrance was a real take over.   I don't know, I would think it's got to be more difficult to just inhabit a human being and it would take time and practice to perfect the possession?  Bran's even comfortable knowing it's not cool to go into Hodor at this point.   He sure seems practiced at it.  

My only not even for sure proof of this is when Bran stares into the fires in the cave and thinks about comforting Meera.  As I read that he actually tried to maybe give her a psychic hug of sorts.    First time not so successful, but stayed tuned for this to happen again and with more impact.   I know it is not a popular idea, but my understanding hasn't changed after many rereads.  

Does this reckoning have legs?  Certainly the 1st event has to be considered when weighing the 2nd event.  Now that Bran is fully comfortable walking around in Hodor's skin what does that say insofar as events go?  

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey @LynnS & @Melifeather--

I read the OP 3 times before I actually replied as I was instantly lost in the event chosen because it wasn't the first time Bran visited Hodor.  Now, as a big swords fan I have spent some time considering Bran and Hodor's expertise and effectiveness with weapons.  (Sorry, Ladies, this rambling is usually how I get to a place.)  Somewhere midway the 2nd reread of the OP I remembered that Hodor sort of practices with his sword.  I don't have any text pointing to Bran visiting at the time so I have to think this practice or at least becoming comfortable with the sword is Hodor's idea or motivation.  Top of the 3rd reread I began to understand that Bran has to learn how to practice his new skill too.  Queensgate was the introduction and the cave entrance was a real take over.   I don't know, I would think it's got to be more difficult to just inhabit a human being and it would take time and practice to perfect the possession?  Bran's even comfortable knowing it's not cool to go into Hodor at this point.   He sure seems practiced at it.  

My only not even for sure proof of this is when Bran stares into the fires in the cave and thinks about comforting Meera.  As I read that he actually tried to maybe give her a psychic hug of sorts.    First time not so successful, but stayed tuned for this to happen again and with more impact.   I know it is not a popular idea, but my understanding hasn't changed after many rereads.  

Does this reckoning have legs?  Certainly the 1st event has to be considered when weighing the 2nd event.  Now that Bran is fully comfortable walking around in Hodor's skin what does that say insofar as events go?  

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 In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay

This is what George says but I don't find anything in the text before Queensgate.  So this must be the first time and given how violently Hodor reacts, that would make sense.  So the continued swordplay and warging happens after that and this continually weakens his mind until they reach the cave.  

[Melifeather]

LynnS's OP is a spin-off from GRRM's interview in Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon. In it he states that the show handled Walder’s transformation into Hodor in a very literal way by having him hold a physical door. This implies that Hodor’s transformation in the book was more “meta” - the science of what is beyond physical. This is why I believe that the "pass" that Hodor was holding was control over his own body. 

The entire interview is centered on Bran's abilities and whether or not he can change the past. GRRM wanted to explore time and whether it is like a river only flowing in one direction, or is it more like an ocean where you can drop down anywhere and affect change wherever you land? I believe Bran dropped down into an ocean changing the circumstances of Jon's death, changed Walder into Hodor (unintentionally), and that it is also why GRRM chose to describe the North as a great sea.

[Curled Finger]

@LynnS & @Melifeather, I thank you both.  

[Seams]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't find anything in the text before Queensgate.

This is in ASoS, Bran I, indicating that Hodor habitually swings his sword for hours at a time. I believe the Queens Crown was in Bran III.

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He is not going to stop, Bran realized. "Hodor," he said, "why don't you go outside and train with your sword?"

The stableboy had forgotten about his sword, but now he remembered. "Hodor!" he burped. He went for his blade. They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust. He could swing it for hours at a time. There was a rotted tree near the tumbled stones that he had hacked half to pieces.

This thread is bringing up some very interesting Lightning Lord imagery, evoking the storm king, which leads me to think that Ser Beric (who seems to be an heir of the Storm King, now that King Robert is out of the picture) is Hodor's nemesis.

There was also a recent thread comparing Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart to a weirwood tree. I think the "rotted tree near the tumbled stones" could be a reference to Lady Stoneheart, as the Riverrun castle is located on the Tumblestone River. (Sansa also notes the statue of Alyssa broken in pieces just before her snow castle scene - broken statue, tree hacked to pieces.)

I'm having another thought here, too. The catspaw was in the stable with Hodor before making his way up to Bran's room. What if Hodor played a role in the attack on Bran and Catelyn? Maybe trying to stop the future abomination of skinchanging by Bran into Hodor's mind?