Time and Causality

[corbon]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's not the same,  Ned isn't Bran and he isn't emerging from a dream with the 3EC who must keep a secret identity.

How is that the standard this time?  Suddenly there is no such thing as a parallel in GRRMs writing?

Ned was in a dream, someone in the dream (Lyanna) turned into someone else in real life (Vayon) as he was woken by that someone else (Vayon).
Bran was in a dream, someone in the dream (3EC) turned into someone else in real life (BHSW) as he was woken by that someone else (BHSW).

How is that not a close parallel? Literally the only words different in those sentences are the identities involved.

Vayon had no relevance to Lyanna. Its entirely possible that BHSW has no relevance to 3EC and is literally just a random serving woman at Winterfell who happened to be in the room changing the water or whatever when Bran woke, which would explain why it was a puzzle to figure out who she might 'represent'. Perhaps she 'represents' just her ordinary self, just as Vayon did. 
Thats it, thats all. You asked for opinions, I gave one that explains the problem you brought up. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not. Its all a very interesting  discussion either way.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats it, thats all. You asked for opinions, I gave one that explains the problem you brought up. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not. Its all a very interesting  discussion either way.

Once again, thanks for your opinion.  I know well enough that when your mind is set on something, there is no changing it. 

Bran is about to see something he shouldn't, It's a women he knows from Winterfell.  Not the woman he sees when he wakes.   

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Seams said:

I think this may be the discussion of "a thousand years ago" and related phrases

Coming back to this idea, I would add repeated sounds.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The door opened its eyes.

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

 

The whispering of the well could be likened to an auditory ripple and the Black Gate, a door, a portal in time. 

[Curled Finger]

Boy did I miss out on some fun.  A couple of small points to these discussions:

@corbon  Ned and Bran were dreaming in different states of being.  I'm not sure I understand Bran jumping back and forth any more than I understand the 3EC dreams, but Ned isn't portrayed as magical at all, so it's prudent to take the 2 varied states into consideration.   Ned can see now and then while Bran seems to be able to see forward and perhaps in between.  Perhaps that is the difference. 

@The Last Wolf  could be Old Nan is just Old Nan and fabulous at being her.   She is completely secure in that identity.  She doesn't need to be anyone else.  She would be something of a time keeper by my reckoning.   She remembers the stories by rote.  She tells the stories by heart.  Trying to fit her into another identity detracts from her keen noteworthiness.  

@LynnS ah yes, the Black Gate.  A time portal?  Perhaps.  I counted the whos and there are 7 and this was once a key factor in one of my sword theories.  Isn't it interesting that there are 7 whos instead of say 12 or 3?  The Black Gate is creepy beyond creepy and we know it's there to either block or allow entry--to which place I can't be certain.  Sam has to say parts of his vows to gain entrance and we know that is the requirement so this gate is tied directly to the duties of the Nights Watch which is a bit of a throwback itself.  We suspect the vows have changed over time, perhaps to reflect the experiences of the organization, but it is so curious that the abbreviated or original words are the ones to be spoken to gain access either in or out.   It is further exciting to run into this gate in Bran's adventures.  It ties in somehow.  Take it to the bank. 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

ah yes, the Black Gate.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

The Black Gate is a magic door or portal.  It's Martin's version of a dwarf door out of LOTR. So well hidden, not even the dwarves know where to find it.  It can only be seen by moonlight and it only opens if you speak the password.  

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Hodor was already curled up and snoring lightly. From time to time he thrashed beneath his cloak, and whimpered something that might have been "Hodor." Bran wriggled closer to the fire. The warmth felt good, and the soft crackling of flames soothed him, but sleep would not come. Outside the wind was sending armies of dead leaves marching across the courtyards to scratch faintly at the doors and windows. The sounds made him think of Old Nan's stories. He could almost hear the ghostly sentinels calling to each other atop the Wall and winding their ghostly warhorns. Pale moonlight slanted down through the hole in the dome, painting the branches of the weirwood as they strained up toward the roof. It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well. Old gods, Bran prayed, if you hear me, don't send a dream tonight. Or if you do, make it a good dream. The gods made no answer.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. "Hodor," Hodor whispered, "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor," the well whispered back. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness.

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The Black Gate is a ghost face, painted in moonlight, and hung on the Wall,  one of the hinges of the world.  It's a moon door. 

Another set of moon doors are found at the entryway of the House of Black and White:

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A Feast for Crows - Arya I

At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. "Let me in, you stupid," she said. "I crossed the narrow sea." She made a fist and pounded. "Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin." She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. "See? Valar morghulis."

The doors made no reply, except to open.

Moon doors that only open when the password is spoken.  I wonder why wierwoods as moon doors are important to the Faceless Men.  

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A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

Eleven servants of the Many-Faced God gathered that night beneath the temple, more than she had ever seen together at one time. Only the lordling and the fat fellow arrived by the front door; the rest came by secret ways, through tunnels and hidden passages. They wore their robes of black and white, but as they took their seats each man pulled his cowl down to show the face he had chosen to wear that day. Their tall chairs were carved of ebony and weirwood, like the doors of the temple above. The ebon chairs had weirwood faces on their backs, the weirwood chairs faces of carved ebony.

 

What magic is there in a moon door?

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

"Snow," the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees.

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

"Snow." An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. "Snow!" His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. "Snow, snow, snow!" He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow's chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. "SNOW!" it screamed into his face.

"I hear you." The room was dim, his pallet hard. Grey light leaked through the shutters, promising another bleak cold day. "Is this how you woke Mormont? Get your feathers out of my face." Jon wriggled an arm out from under his blankets to shoo the raven off. It was a big bird, old and bold and scruffy, utterly without fear. "Snow," it cried, flapping to his bedpost. "Snow, snow." Jon filled his fist with a pillow and let fly, but the bird took to the air. The pillow struck the wall and burst, scattering stuffing everywhere just as Dolorous Edd Tollett poked his head through the door. "Beg pardon," he said, ignoring the flurry of feathers, "shall I fetch m'lord some breakfast?"

There are 38 references to the moon in Jon's POV. This wolf dream is one of the more interesting.  We know that Bran can talk to Jon in a wolf dream, but who is disguised as the moon?  It's a hunting dream and the moon runs with Ghost as if one of the pack.

Then the voice resolves into Mormont's raven screaming into Jon's face as he begins to wake..  This reminds me of the crow screaming as Bran woke from his coma dream.  It seems as though the raven is party to Jon's dream perhaps in a way that Hodor is to Bran's dreams. I'm not sure if the moon and the raven are the same thing.  

Ghost feels the cold that his fur cannot keep out and the deeper cold beyond the Wall.  It's when the icicle falls that the raven breaks in to wake Jon from his dream.  The danger of a spear made of ice.

The moon cackles.  It is crows and ravens that are described as cackling.

This brings Arya to mind because of her desire to fly as high as the moon and go wherever she wants disguised as a raven or crow.

I am still wondering about the Stark connection to Faceless Men and the deeper mysteries of the House of Black and White.  You have to enter through the moon doors and this motif is carried though to the meeting of the FM where Arya acts as a serving girl. 

Do the FM also use moon doors to spy out the land?

[LynnS]

If there is a moon door attached to the icy hinge of the world; is there a moon door attached to the fiery hinge and who is using it?

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Finally he gave it up and made his way up top for a breath of night air. The Selaesori Qhoran had furled her big striped sail for the night, and her decks were all but deserted. One of the mates was on the sterncastle, and amidships Moqorro sat by his brazier, where a few small flames still danced amongst the embers.

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

Hells bells! The bloody moon in the sky, has a twin on the sea.  Twin blood eyes. One in the sky and one one the sea.

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 Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Finally he gave it up and made his way up top for a breath of night air. The Selaesori Qhoran had furled her big striped sail for the night, and her decks were all but deserted. One of the mates was on the sterncastle, and amidships Moqorro sat by his brazier, where a few small flames still danced amongst the embers.

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

Where is the hinge of fire?  In the eye of the storm centered over the Smoking Sea 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Nearby midnight the winds finally died away, and the sea grew calm enough for Tyrion to make his way back up onto deck. What he saw there did not reassure him. The cog was drifting on a sea of dragonglass beneath a bowl of stars, but all around the storm raged on. East, west, north, south, everywhere he looked, the clouds rose up like black mountains, their tumbled slopes and collossal cliffs alive with blue and purple lightning. No rain was falling, but the decks were slick and wet underfoot.

 

...

To be continued....

[LynnS]

@CamiloRP  A follow-up on the KotLT.  I came across this OP by chance and it's fascinating. 

  

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

@CamiloRP  A follow-up on the KotLT.  I came across this OP by chance and it's fascinating. 

  

It definitely is!

I have some thoughts on the Black Gate as well, but for fear of derailing the thread I'll just say I strongly believe it was built as a religious sacrifice method.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It definitely is!

I have some thoughts on the Black Gate as well, but for fear of derailing the thread I'll just say I strongly believe it was built as a religious sacrifice method.

I was surprised when I read Ibbinson from Ibben's OP.  I hadn't considered Howland's potential lineage and it certainly brings a sharper focus to the evnets at Harrenhall.  Rather I assumed that the song Rhaegar played was Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair and by giving the crown to Lyanna, he was making a comparison to the Dragonfly Prince who was once a mystery knight.  Except in this case, it was a kind of upstairs/downstairs insult.  Where the only prince that Lyanna would marry was a dragonfly from the bogs and swamps. 

I don't think discussing the Black Gate as a sacrificial door is off topic.  You may recall that Jon tells Ygritte that the Wall is made of icw and she tells him, he knows nothing and the Wall is made of blood.

Which brings me back to the blood-eye in the sky.  Who do we have with a blood eye that can use a moon door?

Well a big bastard, for one:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Might be we'll make Meereen after all, Tyrion thought.

But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. "A bar sinister," he said to Penny, pointing.

"What does that mean?" she asked.

"It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us."

A big bastard or a great bastard?  A bar or bend sinister denotes bastardy.  Where is the hinge of fire?  At first I thought I should be looking for another wall like the ice wall.  Something just as obvious  as a wall 400 miles long and 700 feet high.  Melisandre says there is magic in the Wall, that Jon can use.  The hinge of fire must also be a source of magic.

Moqorro describes the Doom:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

An empire built on blood and fire. The Valyrians reaped the seed they had sown. "Does our captain mean to test the curse?"

We could surmise that the fourteen flames are the volcanos surrounding the Smoking Sea.  The devastation of the Doom is so catastrophic, I can only imagine that the Smoking Sea sits on top of a hot spot, deep the mantle below, making it a super-volcano not unlike Yellowstone.  So I think this is the hinge of fire.

When the hurricane storm catches up with Tyrion on the Stinky Stewart he finds himself in the eye of the storm centered over the Smoking Sea which he describes:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Nearby midnight the winds finally died away, and the sea grew calm enough for Tyrion to make his way back up onto deck. What he saw there did not reassure him. The cog was drifting on a sea of dragonglass beneath a bowl of stars, but all around the storm raged on. East, west, north, south, everywhere he looked, the clouds rose up like black mountains, their tumbled slopes and collossal cliffs alive with blue and purple lightning. No rain was falling, but the decks were slick and wet underfoot.

A sea of dragonglass or a sea filled with dragonglass?   This brings Quaithes warning to mind: the glass "candles are burning".  On one occasion she visits Dany and Quaithe's eyes are filled with stars.  Is this because glass candle are connected to each other and perhaps to their source of power, a sea of dragonglass?  Did the Red Comet have something to do with tooling up the hinge of fire?

to be continued...  

[Seams]

On 11/11/2020 at 3:34 PM, LynnS said:

"Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

I think the "who" repetition has to do with this scene:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya X

Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come."

"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

Alone, she slid through the shadow of the Tower of Ghosts. She walked fast, to keep ahead of her fear, and it felt as though Syrio Forel walked beside her, and Yoren, and Jaqen H'ghar, and Jon Snow. She had not taken the sword Gendry had brought her, not yet. For this the dagger would be better. It was good and sharp. This postern was the least of Harrenhal's gates, a narrow door of stout oak studded with iron nails, set in an angle of the wall beneath a defensive tower. Only one man was set to guard it, but she knew there would be sentries up in that tower as well, and others nearby walking the walls. Whatever happened, she must be quiet as a shadow. He must not call out. A few scattered raindrops had begun to fall. She felt one land on her brow and run slowly down her nose.

There's even a drop of water falling on Arya's face like the salty tear that falls on Bran's face when he passes through the Black Gate.

Arya is figuring out how to pass through a gate here, too, but she uses Jaqen's coin to trick the guard. She will use the same coin to gain entry to the House of Black and White.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

I think the "who" repetition has to do with this scene:

There's even a drop of water falling on Arya's face like the salty tear that falls on Bran's face when he passes through the Black Gate.

Arya is figuring out how to pass through a gate here, too, but she uses Jaqen's coin to trick the guard. She will use the same coin to gain entry to the House of Black and White.

My goodness Seams! What sharp eyes you have!   That passage is so subtle.  I'm wondering how Arya learns to use a moon gate once she reaches the HoB&W.  I think you need a weirwood portal and some magic orange juice or something.  Or hot chocolate:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"No. I just need a breath of air." Jon stepped out into the night. The sky was full of stars, and the wind was gusting along the Wall. Even the moon looked cold; there were goosebumps all across its face. Then the first gust caught him, slicing through his layers of wool and leather to set his teeth to chattering. He stalked across the yard, into the teeth of that wind. His cloak flapped loudly from his shoulders. Ghost came after. Where am I going? What am I doing? Castle Black was still and silent, its halls and towers dark. My seat, Jon Snow reflected. My hall, my home, my command. A ruin.

Contrast that with this:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

Getting back to that big bastard and his evil twin Euron...

I've had the impression that Euron has been hosting another presence on occasion.  

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A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—"

"—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods . . ."

"Just so," said Euron, "and for that sin I kill them all. I spill their blood upon the sea and sow their screaming women with my seed. Their little gods cannot stop me, so plainly they are false gods. I am more devout than even you, Aeron. Perhaps it should be you who kneels to me for blessing."

The Red Oarsman laughed loudly at that, and the others took their lead from him.

"Fools," said the priest, "fools and thralls and blind men, that is what you are. Do you not see what stands before you?"

This is quite a claim to make.  How does Euron know all the gods and hear prayers unless he is acquainted with the many-faced god of the Faceless Men? We could put this down to the ravings of a mad man, the maddest of them all, if it wasn't for Euron's dream of flying.  Euron may be a failed greenseer or so many readers believe.  How do you know if you can fly unless you try?

Euron's fall from the cliff as as a boy, waking from a dream of flying, his damaged eye... once blue, now has a pupil permanently dilated to appear black, requiring an eye patch to keep out the light.  He is so named the "Crow's Eye".  

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A Feast for Crows - The Reaver

The Crow's Eye had taken Lord Hewett's bedchamber along with his bastard daughter. When he entered, the girl was sprawled naked on the bed, snoring softly. Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

"If the Drowned God wills it. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair." The Crow's Eye will fight, that is certain. No woman could defeat him, not even Asha; women were made to fight their battles in the birthing bed. And Theon, if he lived, was just as hopeless, a boy of sulks and smiles. At Winterfell he proved his worth, such that it was, but the Crow's Eye was no crippled boy. The decks of Euron's ship were painted red, to better hide the blood that soaked them. Victarion. The king must be Victarion, or the storm will slay us all.

 

[Black Crow]

On 11/7/2020 at 2:38 PM, LynnS said:

I think we've had a pretty big reveal, in an interview with George Martin, in a newly published book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon", by James Hibberd.  I guess it's more or less in the public domain at this point.

This is especially interesting to me because I've been banging on about the events at the Skirling Pass for a while; as an example of Martin manipulating time.  I don't call it time travel.  Martin's explanation that events in the future an affect the past, seems better to me.  I would never have guessed that Hodor was connected to Bran through the dimension of time and was changed by events in the future.  When Martin says that the hold the door incident was more akin to hold the pass and that Bran went into Hodor's mind;  I think he was referring to the events at the door to Bloodraven's cave.

I think this is the event where Bran went into Hodor's mind so powerfully, it broke Hodor's mind in the past.   

Interrupting the thread, I know, but Lynn did ask me to look in by...

We have only a little to go on here but I think that little is internally consistent if we break it down

Start off with the trees. We know that they are inhabited by a hive mind which GRRM has experimented with before, most obviously in A Song for Lya. This hive mind is fed by a humanoid race - the Greeshka in Song for Lya and Children/Singers in our present tale of happy country-folk, who look after the trees before becoming absorbed. In both stories humans can be absorbed too- Lya, Bloodraven, Bran and no doubt others. Those going into the trees - in ASOIF [its a long time since I read the other Song] - are wargs. Not all wargs may be able to do it, it it is a pre-requisite. 

As wargs/skinchangers they have the ability to enter the minds of others. Usually animals, but once connected to the trees they can connect with other humans, normally through the medium of dreams, but later...

"later" brings us to the matter of time. We're told that the trees don't see time as a linear concept, so once a connection is made its possible to use the eyes of the trees to see what that tree has seen before, or if a connection has been established, to use the eyes of an animal or human to see what those eyes have seen before.

I don't think that there's anything new or radical in this, but taking it a little further, while there's no suggestion that its possible to physically travel in time, we do get clues that it may be possible not just to see into the past, but enter into dreams in the past and then that in turn offers the possibility of exerting control over an individual in the past.

That of course  requires an exceptionally powerful warg, but it also requires a link to an individual at the present time, in order to burrow down into that individual's past - but only through that individual.

However, what about that warning about bringing back the dead? That suggests that while physical resurrection isn't on the menu, it may be possible to establish a link to the dead and then burrow backwards...

[Black Crow]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:13 PM, LynnS said:

This is really good.  I had forgotten about the Morrigan.   @Black Crow Any comments?

 

Only that the Morrigan or Crow Goddess is essentially a death goddess with three possible human aspects; mother, maiden or crone [sound familiar?], and that GRRM has both referenced her in SSMs, and in House Morrigen with its sigil of a crow volant [see my own sigil] against a storm green sky. 

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That of course  requires an exceptionally powerful warg, but it also requires a link to an individual at the present time, in order to burrow down into that individual's past - but only through that individual.

Thank you Black Crow.  Your insights are always welcome.  I'll stop my blogging here to allow members to respond to your ideas. 

[TheLastWolf]

On 11/13/2020 at 7:53 PM, LynnS said:

Where the only prince that Lyanna would marry was a dragonfly from the bogs and swamps. 

Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies. Howland Reed from Neck. Jenny just nearby in the riverlands. 

On 11/13/2020 at 7:53 PM, LynnS said:

We could surmise that the fourteen flames are the volcanos surrounding the Smoking Sea

13. Unlucky 13. My opinion is that the 14th is symbolism for the dragons. Had a thread. 

 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

My goodness Seams! What sharp eyes you have! 

Wits. Brains. By extension eyes. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As wargs/skinchangers they have the ability to enter the minds of others. Usually animals, but once connected to the trees they can connect with other humans, normally through the medium of dreams, but later...

"later" brings us to the matter of time. We're told that the trees don't see time as a linear concept, so once a connection is made its possible to use the eyes of the trees to see what that tree has seen before, or if a connection has been established, to use the eyes of an animal or human to see what those eyes have seen before.

I don't think that there's anything new or radical in this, but taking it a little further, while there's no suggestion that its possible to physically travel in time, we do get clues that it may be possible not just to see into the past, but enter into dreams in the past and then that in turn offers the possibility of exerting control over an individual in the past.

Absolutely. I also think being connected to the trees/weirnet may be a way of traversing the barrier that seems to stop a skinchanger connection between subjects north & south of the Wall. (I'm thinking Jon not being able to feel Ghost) My thinking is that the way around this, allowing a greenseer/skinchanger to bypass the ward in the wall, is that the connection could be linked to the subterranean. The Underworld acting as a sort of root system for the continent of Westeros. Anyway, maybe that's for another discussion.

@LynnS I totally agree with your take that Bran has travelled back in time to speak to Jon in a dream. (I've believed this since @evita mgfs wrote about it maybe six years ago? I wish she still frequented the forums, she would love this discussion & some of the ideas on this thread.)

You can read Evita's thread here.....

There is however, something I would like to add regards the literary clues I think have been sprinkled around for us to pick up on. 

In Jon's dream there are some notable greenseeresque powers that I think we can trace to Bran being in BR's cave specifically. Thus, supporting the idea he had to have been trained in the cave prior to visiting Jon's dream. These being.....

-The visitation of the dream itself.

-Bran's face being seen in the tree.

-Bran being able to talk from the tree.

-Bran being able to reach out & touch using the limbs of the tree.

George shows us Bran being trained in, or achieving all four of these feats after he starts his training with BR. 

Quote

"Dreams become lessons, lessons become dreams" (Bran III, ADWD)

This quote would suggest that Bran is being shown the skill of how to enter others dreams. Just as BR has been doing with bran since his childhood at Winterfell. 

We also have Bran inhabiting the Winterfell Heart tree in the scenes with Ned & Theon. What is extremely notable when Bran sees his father is that he is in despair at the fact Ned can't a) see him b) hear him & c) is unable to reach out & touch him.

However, when we see his interaction with Theon he is able to achieve all three of these things. Theon can a) see Bran's face in the tree b) hear Bran say his name through the tree & c) Bran is able to reach out & touch Theon's forehead. (The same as he did in Jon's dream, third eye awakening)

So to conclude, after training at BR's hollow hill we know Bran can......

-Visit dreams.

-Have his face seen in the tree.

-Be able to talk from the tree.

-Be able to reach out & touch using the limbs of the tree.

All four of the requirements needed to achieve what we speculate has happened in the dream at the Skirling pass. 

We know the trees experience time differently, that is also expalined to us. So once in the tree & able to perform these feats then time being fluid explains how he could go back in the timeline to visit Jon's dream.

14 hours ago, Seams said:

Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come."

"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

Hi @Seams just a couple of points I wanted to add here. If one puts the words 'hoot' & 'owl' together then we get 'howl'. Could that be a wordplay connecting this passage you so astutely point out? 

Also, I have been wondering if the phrases 'who are you?' & 'Who goes there?' are some sort of code to enter the weirnet & maybe even talk to trees?

Seeing as the Black Gate is in all likelihood the face of a weirwood tree growing within the Wall itself, this would suggest a talking tree. 

Perhaps Howland actually spoke to the trees on the Isle of Faces? Are the Green Men the trees themselves? If so perhaps there was some sort of question or code phrase Howland had to say in order to speak to the trees/green men?

Anyway, speculation at this point, I just really like the idea of the word 'who' or a connected phrase as a password for entry through a gate or connection to the net. Perhaps we should study the game 'Lord of the crossing'?

Quote

Quote

'The way their game was played, you laid the log across the water, and one player stood in the middle with the stick. He was the lord of the crossing, and when the other players came up, he had to say, "I am the Lord of the crossing, who goes there?" And the other player had to make up a speech about who they were and why they should be allowed to cross. The Lord could make them swear oaths and answer questions. They didn't have to tell the truth, but the oaths were binding unless they said "Mayhaps," so the trick was to say "Mayhaps" so the Lord of the crossing didn't notice. Then you could try to knock the lord into the water and you got to be lord of the crossing, but only if you'd said "Mayhaps." Otherwise you were out the game. The lord got to knock anyone in the water anytime he pleased, and he was the only one who got to use a stick.'

(Bran I, ACOK)

 

Some cool Gseer imagery there, the tree as bridge over the river of time and if one wants to cross over (into the wwnet) you must mutter the question "Who goes there?"

Anyway, I shall leave it there for now, really enjoying the topic and comments in the thread. 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Anyway, I shall leave it there for now, really enjoying the topic and comments in the thread. 

Thank you Wizz-the-Smith!  That was fascinating to read.  Love it. 

[Curled Finger]

On 11/11/2020 at 1:34 PM, LynnS said:

Coming back to this idea, I would add repeated sounds.

The whispering of the well could be likened to an auditory ripple and the Black Gate, a door, a portal in time. 

Just reading over all this wonderful information.  Man, it's good to see some old friends pop in here.  You mention repeating sounds and it ties in so well with the overall premise of the idea.   Echoes, as it were.  Would you consider Martin's strange repeats as further demonstration?  In the last Bran chapter we get multiple mentions of the state of the moon:

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.  Mentioned 4 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon was fat and full.   Mentioned 2 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon was a black hole in the sky.   Mentioned 2 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon is mentioned no less than 10 times in this chapter.  

Is this possibly part of the equation? 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Just reading over all this wonderful information.  Man, it's good to see some old friends pop in here.  You mention repeating sounds and it ties in so well with the overall premise of the idea.   Echoes, as it were.  Would you consider Martin's strange repeats as further demonstration?  In the last Bran chapter we get multiple mentions of the state of the moon:

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.  Mentioned 4 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon was fat and full.   Mentioned 2 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon was a black hole in the sky.   Mentioned 2 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon is mentioned no less than 10 times in this chapter.  

Is this possibly part of the equation? 

I'm not sure.  Maybe somebody else has an idea about the equation.  On the surface, it appears to be showing the passage of time.  But how does Bran see the moon from the darkness of the cave? Is the moon an integral part of his lessons?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Man, it's good to see some old friends pop in here.