Time and Causality

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

    

I have an email address for Evita.  I'll see if I can still contact her at that address.  Wouldn't it be something if she returned.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have an email address for Evita.  I'll see if I can still contact her at that address.  Wouldn't it be something if she returned.

As do I. I tried to contact her on numerous occasions, but had no luck. I think she wanted to take a break from the forum for personal reasons, which I totally understand. Good luck, it really would be something if she returned, she's fantastic. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

As do I. I tried to contact her on numerous occasions, but had no luck. I think she wanted to take a break from the forum for personal reasons, which I totally understand. Good luck, it really would be something if she returned, she's fantastic. 

I'm just reading her magnificent essay/analysis you posted.  I'm remembering how inspiring and generous she was with everyone.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm just reading her magnificent essay/analysis you posted.  I'm remembering how inspiring and generous she was with everyone.

It really is great, typical of Evita's analysis. 

And yes, she is so warm and welcoming. Simply put, if it wasn't for her I wouldn't have as good an understanding of how to read literature. [even if that understanding is miniscule compared to Evita] Not only was she super encouraging in the Bran's growing powers thread, she would also DM me with tips and asked me to take a lead role in running the Bran's powers thread. My confidence grew as a result and enabled me to start posting in other threads and interacting with others throughout the fandom. Evita mgfs fanboy right here.   

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is this possibly part of the equation

Oh!  The first new eyes a greenseer learns to use are the eyes of the weirwood trees.  Plus he has been learning to skinchange crows and ravens in the last Bran chapter.  This is how he knows the phases of the moon.

Now I wonder about Jon's Ghost dream where the moon is following Jon calling his name.  The moon is cackling/laughing as he chases Jon.  When the icycle falls, the moon screams and Mormont's Raven is waking Jon from the dream.  Is Bran skinchanging Mormont's Raven but appearing as the moon in Jon's dream?  Cackling and quroking are the sounds crows and raven's make? 

This would have to be something Bran does from his future. 

[LynnS]

Musical Interlude:

 

[Ser Leftwich]

Taschenrechner!

[TheLastWolf]

On 11/12/2020 at 9:55 AM, Curled Finger said:

@The Last Wolf  could be Old Nan is just Old Nan and fabulous at being her.   She is completely secure in that identity.  She doesn't need to be anyone else.  She would be something of a time keeper by my reckoning.   She remembers the stories by rote.  She tells the stories by heart.  Trying to fit her into another identity detracts from her keen noteworthiness.

I always knew that was and is your opinion. But I'd still love to her being something more. And it's @TheLastWolf. The other wolf guy hasn't been around for millennia 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Taschenrechner!

And just like that, you're a cello-headbanger-crossover-junkie. 

[LynnS]

Is there a differece between Him of Many Faces and the the Many Faced God? 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

She had said as much to the kindly man. "And are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die?" he asked her. "We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. So has it always been, from the beginning. I have told you of the founding of our order, of how the first of us answered the prayers of slaves who wished for death. The gift was given only to those who yearned for it, in the beginning … but one day, the first of us heard a slave praying not for his own death but for his master's. So fervently did he desire this that he offered all he had, that his prayer might be answered. And it seemed to our first brother that this sacrifice would be pleasing to Him of Many Faces, so that night he granted the prayer. Then he went to the slave and said, 'You offered all you had for this man's death, but slaves have nothing but their lives. That is what the god desires of you. For the rest of your days on earth, you will serve him.' And from that moment, we were two." His hand closed around her arm, gently but firmly. "All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

No, she thought. "Yes," she said.

How exactly has Arya been marked?  Her direwolf has eyes like gold coins.  Isn't it Jaqen H'gar who marks her by giving her a gold coin?  Is Jaqen  Him of Many Faces?  .

Why does the kindliest old man Arya has ever seen look something like Bloodraven?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya I

"Let us see." The priest lowered his cowl. Beneath he had no face; only a yellowed skull with a few scraps of skin still clinging to the cheeks, and a white worm wriggling from one empty eye socket. "Kiss me, child," he croaked, in a voice as dry and husky as a death rattle.

Does he think to scare me? Arya kissed him where his nose should be and plucked the grave worm from his eye to eat it, but it melted like a shadow in her hand.

The yellow skull was melting too, and the kindliest old man that she had ever seen was smiling down at her. "No one has ever tried to eat my worm before," he said. "Are you hungry, child?"

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

If Jaqen is Him of Many Faces, including the kindliest old man Arya has ever seen; then it is Bloodraven, the god of many-faces who gives the orders..  When Jaqen gives his oath to Arya, he also swears on Him of Fire.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

He has sworn. "Even if I named the king . . ."

Is this the other side of the House of Black and White? Jaqen's counterpart?  Melisandre says she has met R'Hllor.  He exists.  Was she also marked and transformed by him.  Is she marked by her ruby as Arya has been with her coin?  Was he the first faceless man?

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

How exactly has Arya been marked?  Her direwolf has eyes like gold coins.  Isn't it Jaqen H'gar who marks her by giving her a gold coin?  Is Jaqen  Him of Many Faces?  .

Why does the kindliest old man Arya has ever seen look something like Bloodraven?

IMO the mark that the Kindly Man acknowledges is how fervently Arya prays for the death of her enemies just like the second ever Faceless Man. Arya repeats her prayer list religiously every night and the Faceless Men “heard” her. THEY are the Many Faced God. The Kindly Man wants Arya to see the difference between killing the people on her list and allowing one of the other Faceless Men to do it. The Faceless Men carry out the prayers, but they don’t answer their own prayer. That is why when they are to carry out a prayer they have to reply, I do not know this man.

[Melifeather]

Going back to the Black Gate. It just struck me as a possibility that when Bran and company walked into the Black Gate’s mouth that they travelled into the past waded into a river/stream of time and were carried away - thus the entrance being located in a well(spring). 

The Black Gate is a face on an ancient weirwood tree. Maybe you can exit into different time periods and Coldhands is the ferry man of Styx? Time is an ocean so if your looking for a certain “stream” of time (stream of consciousness/river of time) you need a guide. If you are to have an effect on the present and future, you need access to the past.

What I’d like to know is why it’s called “black” when the gate itself is a white weirwood? I’m going to stew on that a bit...

[LynnS]

On 11/12/2020 at 7:41 PM, CamiloRP said:

It definitely is!

I have some thoughts on the Black Gate as well, but for fear of derailing the thread I'll just say I strongly believe it was built as a religious sacrifice method.

Jump in any time!

[LynnS]

Yes,that's part of it.  Specifically others seem to know she is marked when she shows them the iron coin.  The Captain of the Titan's Daughter; the crew who make sure that she knows their names.  I think Him of the many-faced gods, who's job it is to mark those who will become acolytes is Jaqen. 

[Melifeather]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes,that's part of it.  Specifically others seem to know she is marked when she shows them the iron coin.  The Captain of the Titan's Daughter; the crew who make sure that she knows their names.  I think Him of the many-faced gods, who's job it is to mark those who will become acolytes is Jaqen. 

Yes, quite so. Jaqen heard her fervent prayer and the coin was the visible mark. It let everyone know she was marked by the many faces of the god, He Who Shall Not Be Named - which is the reason why Jaqen was upset that Arya named him.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Going back to the Black Gate. It just struck me as a possibility that when Bran and company walked into the Black Gate’s mouth that they travelled into the past, carried away on a metaphorical river of time. Or alternately the stream carried them into the future so that they could reach back to the present?The Black Gate is a face on an ancient weirwood tree. Maybe you can exit into different time periods and Coldhands is the ferry man of Styx? Time is an ocean so if your looking for a certain “stream” of time (stream of consciousness/river of time) you need a guide. If you are to have an effect on the present and future, you need access to the past.

What I’d like to know is why it’s called “black” when the gate itself is a white weirwood? I’m going to stew on that a bit...

Coldhands certainly does seem to be the boatman who carries the dead to hades.  In this case. BR's cave, or the mines of Moria if you prefer.  And he did extract an oath, three times from Sam to let the world beyond the Wall think that Bran and company are dead.   

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Coldhands certainly does seem to be the boatman who carries the dead to hades.  In this case. BR's cave, or the mines of Moria if you prefer.  And he did extract an oath, three times from Sam to let the world beyond the Wall think that Bran and company are dead.   

I revised my post while you were commenting. Letting you know in case it causes additional thoughts?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Going back to the Black Gate. It just struck me as a possibility that when Bran and company walked into the Black Gate’s mouth that they travelled into the past waded into a river/stream of time and were carried away - thus the entrance being located in a well(spring). 

The Black Gate is a face on an ancient weirwood tree. Maybe you can exit into different time periods and Coldhands is the ferry man of Styx? Time is an ocean so if your looking for a certain “stream” of time (stream of consciousness/river of time) you need a guide. If you are to have an effect on the present and future, you need access to the past.

What I’d like to know is why it’s called “black” when the gate itself is a white weirwood? I’m going to stew on that a bit...

Stream of consciousness/river of time...I like this.  Perhaps Bran has been marked by the Black Gate with a salty tear.  Someone who may access the weirwood portals?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

In the last Bran chapter we get multiple mentions of the state of the moon:

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.  Mentioned 4 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon was fat and full.   Mentioned 2 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon was a black hole in the sky.   Mentioned 2 times in Bran 3 ADWD

The moon is mentioned no less than 10 times in this chapter.  

Is this possibly part of the equation? 

 

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure.  Maybe somebody else has an idea about the equation.  On the surface, it appears to be showing the passage of time.  But how does Bran see the moon from the darkness of the cave? Is the moon an integral part of his lessons?

Hi everyone. 

This is a really interesting question, and may (if we're extremely lucky, I've not done the research yet) give us some really interesting answers. 

As you say @LynnS the moon appears to be showing us the passage of time, which is exactly what we are looking for. It could potentially help us in our quest to decipher whether or not there are some literary clues to pick up on. Ones that will help us identify a parallel passage of text, set at a different time in the books with similar descriptors.

The brilliant poster @cantuse has already explored this as a potential way to corellate the timeline in chapters after Bran III ADWD.  He expertly looks for textual similarities in the phases of the moon as described in Bran's last chapter and matches them with text from the remaining chapters of 'Dance'. 

Interestingly, this is the exact same technique that @evita mgfs identified in her Bran's growing powers thread as a useful tool for tracing Bran's Gseer presence in the text, both post and pre his last chapter in ADWD. We would look for wind, mist, trees, ravens, crows, elemental magic, specific text that described Bran and Bloodraven etc, and with quite a bit of success. 

Significantly, Cantuse has independently used the same technique to search for Bran, but by using the descriptions of the moon. I highly recommend reading Cantuse's fantastic essay (I think it's essential reading and very thought provoking for our discussion in this thread) you can find it here.

 click the link above, you won't regret it. 

I suggest we likewise examine whether we can match the descriptions of the moon in Bran III to descriptions of the moon elsewhere. Namely, for the purposes of this thread, Jon's dream at the Skirling Pass.

Do the descriptions of the moon in both chapters have similarities? 

Can we link any other text? (like my connection of the training Bran receives in the cave being the very techniques he uses to communicate with Jon)

As I mention upthread, I haven't re-read that chapter myself yet, rather I thought it may be more beneficial to have multiple sets of eyes and ideas on the case.  

Anyhoo, at the very least this is a cool angle and gives everyone a chance to read that fantastic essay by Cantuse. 

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Anyhoo, at the very least this is a cool angle and gives everyone a chance to read that fantastic essay by Cantuse.

That was an excellent read.  Looking for parallel text in different POV's, has been leading me on quite a journey of late.  Here's one:

Quote

 Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

"Good," the maester said. "A good boy. Your . . . your father's son, Bran. Now go."

Osha gazed up at the weirwood, at the red face carved in the pale trunk. "And leave you for the gods?"

"I beg . . ." The maester swallowed. ". . . a . . . a drink of water, and . . . another boon. If you would 

 

I can't find any reference to the moon, unless a white round leather shield stands in for the moon.

 

  .