Time and Causality

[Seams]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

She had said as much to the kindly man. "And are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die?" he asked her. "We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. So has it always been, from the beginning. I have told you of the founding of our order, of how the first of us answered the prayers of slaves who wished for death. The gift was given only to those who yearned for it, in the beginning … but one day, the first of us heard a slave praying not for his own death but for his master's. So fervently did he desire this that he offered all he had, that his prayer might be answered. And it seemed to our first brother that this sacrifice would be pleasing to Him of Many Faces, so that night he granted the prayer. Then he went to the slave and said, 'You offered all you had for this man's death, but slaves have nothing but their lives. That is what the god desires of you. For the rest of your days on earth, you will serve him.' And from that moment, we were two." His hand closed around her arm, gently but firmly. "All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

No, she thought. "Yes," she said.

How exactly has Arya been marked?  Her direwolf has eyes like gold coins.  Isn't it Jaqen H'gar who marks her by giving her a gold coin?  Is Jaqen  Him of Many Faces?  .

I interpreted this in a different way.

You seem to be interpreting this as the Kindly Man describing Arya as having been marked - perhaps the coin from Jaqen marking her as a qualified assassin.

What I see in this passage is the Kindly Man telling Arya that the gods "mark" a target for assassination and that an individual assassin (such as Arya) does not have permission to target people for assassination using her own judgment or preferences.

To "give the gift" is the phrase the Faceless Men use to indicate that someone has been assassinated. I hope that Arya has not been marked and targeted for assassination.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Why does the kindliest old man Arya has ever seen look something like Bloodraven?

There is a strong set of parallels between the Kindly Man and Bloodraven but there are also parallels between the Kindly Man and Littlefinger and possibly the Widow of the Waterfront, Ser Dontos and Roose Bolton. These are all mentors for Starks and for Tyrion. I don't think GRRM is slavishly following a Joseph Campbell "Hero's Journey" formula, but he may have created his own archetype for these mentors who help the young POV characters to navigate their ways through the pitfalls and challenges of war-torn Westeros and Essos.

For instance, Jaqen and the Faceless Men use coins to signify admission to the mysteries of the House of Black and White. Littlefinger is a Master of Coin. Penny and Groat are named for coins and they help Tyrion on his journey aboard the Selaesori Qhoran. (By the way - the Selaesori Qhoran is a trading cog. The reference to a cog puts me in mind of clock work and may tie into the notion of time travel or elements of a timeline that can co-exist. See also Night's Watch.)

The Widow of the Waterfront may be more of a parallel to Coldhands than to Bloodraven. As a former slave, she had a tear tattoo on her face that has been removed. Could this be a parallel for the salty tear that falls on Bran's face when he passes through the Black Gate? (And the drop on Arya's face when she escapes through a gate in the wall of Harrenhal?) Ser Jorah carefully selects gloves as a gift for her and she seems delighted by the prospect of covering her old, wrinkled hands with them.

Roose employs Arya in the job of handling bloodsucking leeches. Perhaps he is preparing her for her encounter with the Kindly Man where she fearlessly attempts to ingest the worm from his eye socket.

Dontos kisses Sansa in a way that may echo Arya's kiss for the Kindly Man. (Also, Dontos is naked from the waist down when Sansa first encounters him at Joffrey's name day tourney. His naked penis could be a parallel to the worm of the Kindly Man or to Roose's leeches.)

Littlefinger also kisses Sansa (or insists that she kiss him) in a way that readers find inappropriate and disturbing. Consider, however, that one of these inappropriate kisses takes place at the snow castle scene, just before Lysa attempts to push Sansa through the moon door (but Lysa ends up going through the door at the instigation of Littlefinger) and at the bottom of the mountain / The Gates of the Moon below the Eyrie after Sansa descends.

There should probably be a whole thread to analyze kisses but it seems as if they are often a part of the ritual for passing from one place (or time?) to another. Penny kisses Tyrion, Tyrion thinks about the kiss from the Shrouded Lord, Ser Beric revives Catelyn with a kiss, the Knight of Skulls and Kisses appears in Meera's story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Ser Jorah kisses Dany - these kissing incidents could be useful to understand in getting to the bottom of this time loop or ripple theory.

I hope this isn't too far out on a tangent. Your good insight about the Bloodraven / Kindly Man parallel brought up these other parallels in my mind. They do seem to cluster around this idea of gatekeepers and guides (mentors) who may assist POV characters in their journeys.

[CamiloRP]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jump in any time!

If you insist...

Most of this would be a similar version of what I wrote in my Jon Snow Will Be A Sacrifice post, it's finals week, I also have a bunch of videos to edit, am late on a couple of text I have to present and I'm cooking a massive dinner, so let's get on with this:

 

The Black Gate was created as a mean to give bastards born of the first night to The Others. 

 

The gate looks like a carved weirwood face, which opens it's mouth to let people through.

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The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The door opened its eyes.

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

(ASOS Chapter 56, Bran IV)

 

This makes it look like the one who's going through is being consumed by a god, which would be perfect imagery for religious sacrifice. The three consumes someone. And we've seen that some followers of the religion of the Old Gods do or did feed people to the three.

 

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The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied.

(ADWD, Davos IV)

 

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Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

(ADWD, Bran III)

 

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It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

(ACOK, Jon II)

 

There's also the fact that the Black Gate is under the Nightfort's well.

 

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He couldn't leave his friends helpless in the dark to face whatever was coming up out of the well.

(ASOS Chapter 56, Bran IV)

 

And throwing unwanted children down wells is a common practice in Westeros.

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The countryside had no grotes-queries or mummer shows ... though it did have wells aplenty, to swallow up unwanted kittens, three-headed calves, and babes like him.

(ADWD Chapter 14, Tyrion IV)

 

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"A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well"

(ADWD, Reek III)

 

So, what connection is there between throwing children down wells and a door that's likely been made for sacrifice purposes?  Well, the children thrown down wells are unwanted children, the easies subjects to use for sacrifice as no one wants them.

 

There's also a conection with Alyssane, we know she did a few things:

She caused the Nightfort to be closed down, She gave the New Gift  to the watch (which likely used to belong to the houses Roose claims still practice the lord's right to the first knight). And the Watch renamed Snowgate (bastard gate?) to Queen's Gate in her honor.

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His queen, Alysanne, was also well loved throughout the realm, being both beautiful and high-spirited, as well as charming and keenly intelligent. Some said that she ruled the realm as much as the king did, and there was some truth to that. It was at her behest that King Jaehaerys at last forbade the right of the First Night, despite the many lords who jealously guarded it. And the Night's Watch came to rename the castle of Snowgate in her honor, dubbing it Queensgate instead. They did this in thanks for the treasure in jewels she gave them to pay for the construction of a new castle, Deep Lake, to replace the huge and ruinously costly Nightfort, and for her role in winning them the New Gift that bolstered their flagging strength.

(TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I)

 

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"Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate."

(ASOS Chapter 41, Jon V)

 

So, could all of these things be related? could she have given the lands of the New Gift to The Watch to prevent the lord's right in those lands, the lands she stayed in during her visit? could she have closed down TNF to stop the sacrifices?

 

There's also the fact that the houses Old Nan suspects of being the house to which the Night's King belonged to and the houses Roose 'acuses' of practicing the lord's right line up pretty well.

 

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"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

(ASOS Chapter 56, Bran IV)

 

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The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger. The Umbers keep the first night too, deny it as they may. Certain of the mountain clans as well, and on Skagos ... well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos.

(ADWD Chapter 31, Reek III).

 

And we know that giving babies to the Others is a good peace keeping method.

 

The theory is that the Lord's Right was an excuse to create a lot of unwanted extra bastards, bastards that most lords would want to get rid of, and they would use religious sacrifice imagery to get people on board with it, in reality, they'd be just getting kids through the door where an Other would be waiting to get them.

[Melifeather]

@Seams you are correct in that the Faceless Men “mark” those that they bring the “gift” too. What LynnS and myself were saying is that the coin Jaqen gave Arya was also a type of mark, an outward signal that she was chosen to train to become a Faceless Man like himself. The crew on the ship recognized it and so did the Kindly Man.

@CamiloRP, I appreciated your insight into the naming of Snowgate. I agree it was named more so for the bastards born of the lords of the north rather than for snow. This thought is supported by the renaming to Queensgate, especially since it was Alysanne that abolished first night.

If all the lords in the north claimed the first night, there could potentially be quite a number of bastards, but I don’t think any were sacrificed after the Nights King was removed, because sacrificing was viewed as taboo by the time the Wall was built. So I think most bastards were encouraged to take the black, and they may have even been assigned to live and serve at Snowgate. This idea seems to be supported by the stories of Mance and Craster. Mance’s mother gave him to the Watch to raise and they accepted him as one of their own, while Craster was denied. His father refused to acknowledge him thus creating the curse. Craster’s father didn’t want to accept punishment for breaking his vow to father no children so he denied the child was his and prevented him from being raised by, and becoming one of, the men of the Watch. IMO this is why Craster’s father was cursed and how Craster inherited it.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I interpreted this in a different way.

All the better for the purposes of our discussion.  I don't disagree with your interpretation.  We're peeling the onion. The statement:

We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces on it's own, has a different sound in my ears.  The gift of mercy is given by the FM.  What gift is being offered to those who are marked to become FM.  I was triggered by Him of many faces to think about Him of Fire.  That's the beauty of word association.   I love the Kindly Man-Gatekeeper associations.  This is all germane to the subject at hand. 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The theory is that the Lord's Right was an excuse to create a lot of unwanted extra bastards, bastards that most lords would want to get rid of, and they would use religious sacrifice imagery to get people on board with it, in reality, they'd be just getting kids through the door where an Other would be waiting to get them.

I like the word association of snow gate and bastard gate too.  No denial that blood sacrifices were made in the north.  I think your theory about first rights, bastards and the Boltons is intriguing,  I have no sense of why the Night Fort was shut.   I'm wondering if it was a manpower issue and the latest casualty in the decline of the NW.  But part of me wants it to be closed because it was too damn creepy. 

I also interpret sacrifice to include giving children to the old gods in the way that Stark kids have been given to the old gods.  With passage through the Black Gate reserved for bothers of the NW and those like Bran  and Jojen who are greenseers and greensight. A sacrifice of another kind.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

 

@CamiloRP, I appreciated your insight into the naming of Snowgate. I agree it was named more so for the bastards born of the lords of the north rather than for snow. This thought is supported by the renaming to Queensgate, especially since it was Alysanne that abolished first night.

Thank you

 

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If all the lords in the north claimed the first night, there could potentially be quite a number of bastards, but I don’t think any were sacrificed after the Nights King was removed, because sacrificing was viewed as taboo by the time the Wall was built. So I think most bastards were encouraged to take the black, and they may have even been assigned to live and serve at Snowgate. This idea seems to be supported by the stories of Mance and Craster. Mance’s mother gave him to the Watch to raise and they accepted him as one of their own, while Craster was denied. His father refused to acknowledge him thus creating the curse. Craster’s father didn’t want to accept punishment for breaking his vow to father no children so he denied the child was his and prevented him from being raised by, and becoming one of, the men of the Watch. IMO this is why Craster’s father was cursed and how Craster inherited it.

I don't think Craster's father not recognizing him is the reason for him not being accepted at the Wall, as people accept him as the son of a crow, and Mormont claims he would accept any of Craster's sons in the Watch, despite them being purely freefolk.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I like the word association of snow gate and bastard gate too.  No denial that blood sacrifices were made in the north.  I think your theory about first rights, bastards and the Boltons is intriguing,  I have no sense of why the Night Fort was shut.   I'm wondering if it was a manpower issue and the latest casualty in the decline of the NW.  But part of me wants it to be closed because it was too damn creepy. 

I also interpret sacrifice to include giving children to the old gods in the way that Stark kids have been given to the old gods.  With passage through the Black Gate reserved for bothers of the NW and those like Bran  and Jojen who are greenseers and greensight. A sacrifice of another kind.

Jojen! I forgot about Jojen, he was totally sacrificed, no? 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Thank you

 

I don't think Craster's father not recognizing him is the reason for him not being accepted at the Wall, as people accept him as the son of a crow, and Mormont claims he would accept any of Craster's sons in the Watch, despite them being purely freefolk.

Not quite what I meant. Craster’s father denied he was his. The other men may have believed Craster’s mother. Who knows? We have no way of knowing, but Craster’s father should have known. I think he just didn’t want to be known as an oathbreaker. What is the punishment for breaking the Night’s Watch oath? Desertion is grounds for execution. Seems extreme to execute a man of the Watch for fathering a child, but it may have been viewed just as badly at one time.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Not quite what I meant. 

Yeah it was a translation mistake, I meant not acknowledging him (in spansih it's the same word "reconocer")

[Curled Finger]

On 11/14/2020 at 12:46 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

It really is great, typical of Evita's analysis. 

And yes, she is so warm and welcoming. Simply put, if it wasn't for her I wouldn't have as good an understanding of how to read literature. [even if that understanding is miniscule compared to Evita] Not only was she super encouraging in the Bran's growing powers thread, she would also DM me with tips and asked me to take a lead role in running the Bran's powers thread. My confidence grew as a result and enabled me to start posting in other threads and interacting with others throughout the fandom. Evita mgfs fanboy right here.   

Haha!  Reminds me of baby Curled Finger in the Riverlands Web where so many gave so much encouragement and gentle, patient explanation.  I remember a young wicked smart guy called Wizz right there, making understanding this amazing story easier and deeper and better all the way around.    @LynnS is doing exactly what you folks did when I began here, encouraging and examining the nuances and I love being part of this with my plodding curiosity.   Last time I spoke with Evita mgfs she sent me a pm directing me to the Riverlands Web!  I think the whole bunch of you should just come back full time.   I miss you all.  

[Curled Finger]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:51 AM, Melifeather said:

Going back to the Black Gate. It just struck me as a possibility that when Bran and company walked into the Black Gate’s mouth that they travelled into the past waded into a river/stream of time and were carried away - thus the entrance being located in a well(spring). 

The Black Gate is a face on an ancient weirwood tree. Maybe you can exit into different time periods and Coldhands is the ferry man of Styx? Time is an ocean so if your looking for a certain “stream” of time (stream of consciousness/river of time) you need a guide. If you are to have an effect on the present and future, you need access to the past.

What I’d like to know is why it’s called “black” when the gate itself is a white weirwood? I’m going to stew on that a bit...

Pardon me, Lady, I struggle with all this talk of time as is evidenced in my comments.  Your description above puts me in a mind of LynnS's black gate being a portal.  Are you saying Bran and his companions are out of time now, having passed through the Black Gate?   

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Jojen! I forgot about Jojen, he was totally sacrificed, no? 

No, I really don't know about Jojen.  I hope that he, Meera and Hodor are out of sight becaus they are exploring the caves.  But Jojen has definately been giving off the death vibe. 

[Tucu]

Bran I to III in ADWD reminds me a lot of Dany in the House of the Undying. Both go through a "black gate" shaped like a mouth and enter a twisty passage, then go around in circles having visions and they finally reach an awful scene where some ancient corpses promise them the "wisdom of those who have conquered death". Drogon saves Dany from being consumed by the corpses, but Bran is still trapped there being consumed.

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Haha!  Reminds me of baby Curled Finger in the Riverlands Web where so many gave so much encouragement and gentle, patient explanation.  I remember a young wicked smart guy called Wizz right there, making understanding this amazing story easier and deeper and better all the way around.    @LynnS is doing exactly what you folks did when I began here, encouraging and examining the nuances and I love being part of this with my plodding curiosity.   Last time I spoke with Evita mgfs she sent me a pm directing me to the Riverlands Web!  I think the whole bunch of you should just come back full time.   I miss you all.  

There was a group called the Riverlands Group?  I think I left the forums around that time. The stuff that Wizz has been putting up is new to me.  I want them to come back too!

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Bran I to III in ADWD reminds me a lot of Dany in the House of the Undying. Both go through a "black gate" shaped like a mouth and enter a twisty passage, then go around in circles having visions and they finally reach an awful scene where some ancient corpses promise them the "wisdom of those who have conquered death". Drogon saves Dany from being consumed by the corpses, but Bran is still trapped there being consumed.

Wow! no kidding.  I think there are a lot of parallels to explore between Bran and Dany.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

 Doesn't this sound like Bran's precarious situation?  If Dany doesn't get through the red door, she'll be trapped in the HoU?  This dream is where she learns to fly if you read the dream completely.

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Pardon me, Lady, I struggle with all this talk of time as is evidenced in my comments.  Your description above puts me in a mind of LynnS's black gate being a portal.  Are you saying Bran and his companions are out of time now, having passed through the Black Gate?   

Yes. I think the Black Gate is a portal. The author specifically compared time to an ocean where you could drop down anywhere and have an effect. Bloodraven said men are trapped in a river of time that only moves forward. The Black Gate is down a well. Wells are accesses to water, so the location of the Black Gate suggests that Bran exited the river that men are trapped in, went through a portal, and gained access to the ocean of time.

[Curled Finger]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There was a group called the Riverlands Group?  I think I left the forums around that time. The stuff that Wizz has been putting up is new to me.  I want them to come back too!

Riverlands Web.  They were wonderful, the conversations were brilliant.  Wizz was part of this group, along with too many I don't see around here anymore.   Check them out if you have never had the pleasure.  All Riverlands focused, but rich conversation about all of it.  

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There was a group called the Riverlands Group?  I think I left the forums around that time. The stuff that Wizz has been putting up is new to me.  I want them to come back too!

Looks like it’s been archived: 

 

[Mourning Star]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:48 PM, corbon said:

How is that the standard this time?  Suddenly there is no such thing as a parallel in GRRMs writing?

Ned was in a dream, someone in the dream (Lyanna) turned into someone else in real life (Vayon) as he was woken by that someone else (Vayon).
Bran was in a dream, someone in the dream (3EC) turned into someone else in real life (BHSW) as he was woken by that someone else (BHSW).

How is that not a close parallel? Literally the only words different in those sentences are the identities involved.

Vayon had no relevance to Lyanna. Its entirely possible that BHSW has no relevance to 3EC and is literally just a random serving woman at Winterfell who happened to be in the room changing the water or whatever when Bran woke, which would explain why it was a puzzle to figure out who she might 'represent'. Perhaps she 'represents' just her ordinary self, just as Vayon did. 
Thats it, thats all. You asked for opinions, I gave one that explains the problem you brought up. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not. Its all a very interesting  discussion either way.

Vayon dies soon after and his child is taken to Winterfell and passed off as a child of Ned's... this seems like a pretty strong parallel to me.

Another innocent looking to Ned, another he couldn't save.

I have more thoughts about the larger discussion here, but I'll make it a separate post, good stuff!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Pardon me, Lady, I struggle with all this talk of time as is evidenced in my comments.  Your description above puts me in a mind of LynnS's black gate being a portal.  Are you saying Bran and his companions are out of time now, having passed through the Black Gate?   

No, not exactly. 
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Will I see my father again?"

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

 

 What we can take from this that Bran is still experiencing time moving in one direction.  Bran can see what the trees have seen, but he does not have the power to see as the tree sees at this point.  Although BR sees as the tree sees hinting that he has not yet glimpsed that part of Bran's future.

You could think of the salt tear at the Black Gate as  baptism or communion with the gate/portal.  It's followed by additional sacraments, the weirwood paste and the wedding.