Time and Causality

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Vayon dies soon after and his child is taken to Winterfell and passed off as a child of Ned's... this seems like a pretty strong parallel to me.

Another innocent looking to Ned, another he couldn't save.

I have more thoughts about the larger discussion here, but I'll make it a separate post, good stuff!

It looks the same, but it's not.  I don't want the thread to degrade into a pointless argument.  I've since given another example of Jon's dream resolving into Mormont's raven.  There is a mystery to uncover here.

You are welcome to post your thoughts on the larger discussion here, if you wish to.   

 

[Mourning Star]

This is a fantastic topic!

I want to focus on the river analogy to start, because a river is used first as an analogy for life and time well before it is explained to Bran:

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"I have no one to talk with, Father," she told him. "I pray, but the gods do not answer." Lightly she kissed his hand. The skin was warm, blue veins branching like rivers beneath his pale translucent skin. Outside the greater rivers flowed, the Red Fork and the Tumblestone, and they would flow forever, but not so the rivers in her father's hand. Too soon that current would grow still. "Last night I dreamed of that time Lysa and I got lost while riding back from Seagard. Do you remember? That strange fog came up and we fell behind the rest of the party. Everything was grey, and I could not see a foot past the nose of my horse. We lost the road. The branches of the trees were like long skinny arms reaching out to grab us as we passed. Lysa started to cry, and when I shouted the fog seemed to swallow the sound. But Petyr knew where we were, and he rode back and found us . . ."
"But there's no one to find me now, is there? This time I have to find our own way, and it is hard, so hard."
"I keep remembering the Stark words. Winter has come, Father. For me. For me. Robb must fight the Greyjoys now as well as the Lannisters, and for what? For a gold hat and an iron chair? Surely the land has bled enough. I want my girls back, I want Robb to lay down his sword and pick some homely daughter of Walder Frey to make him happy and give him sons. I want Bran and Rickon back, I want . . ." Catelyn hung her head. "I want," she said once more, and then her words were gone.
After a time the candle guttered and went out. Moonlight slanted between the slats of the shutters, laying pale silvery bars across her father's face. She could hear the soft whisper of his labored breathing, the endless rush of waters, the faint chords of some love song drifting up from the yard, so sad and sweet. "I loved a maid as red as autumn," Rymund sang, "with sunset in her hair."
Catelyn never noticed when the singing ended. Hours had passed, yet it seemed only a heartbeat before Brienne was at the door. "My lady," she announced softly. "Midnight has come."
Midnight has come, Father, she thought, and I must do my duty. She let go of his hand.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

So there is a lot in the above quote worth discussing, but the first thing that catches my eye is the comparison of rivers to veins, and the larger metaphor of a life flowing it's course.

A man's life is finite, and while Cat seems to suggest the physical rivers will flow forever, even that isn't true according to Maester Luwin.

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Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem . . . but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

And if everything changes, including the physical rivers, does that include time?

The Cat quote above gets particularly bizarre as it retells the story from her youth. While I could speculate about why practically Seaguard is where they are returning from, and the potential marriage partner Jason Mallister must have been, and potential roads not taken, instead I'll just also point out that Will, our Prologue PoV was originally a poacher on Mallister land. And as is fairly well documented, the prologue, of a man in the middle of his life finding himself in a dark wood where the easy way was lost, is a reference to both Frost and Dante. And obviously this is our first glimpse of the white walkers, the white mists, shadows with teeth.

A strange fog? Isn't that like a strange mist? Something often associated with the Others? And here Cat and Lysa become lost in it, even with the odd detail of the long arms of trees reaching out to get them, and they needed someone to come save them. That it is Petyr, a friend, a lover, and an enemy, is also intriguing.

It is worth noting that between Seaguard and Riverrun lies Oldstones. Which, I believe, is why Petyr knew where to find them. The love song in the quote above is a line from Jenny's Song, who had flowers in her hair, or sunset, in this case. I would suggest that there should be a verse for each season.

And now Winter has come for Cat (hard for us to deny knowing where her road is heading), and she wants... well it doesn't matter what she wants... Winter is coming...

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Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. "Do you want to die, Wull?"
That seemed to amuse the northman. "I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize

And yet, time flows on, and over the endless rush of water Cat hears a love song, and eventually, hours that seem a moment, get's up to "do her duty". However, analysis of the love/duty dichotomy deserves it's own discussion, and it's an open question if the madness of mercy Cat shows Jaime was a mistake.

But, let me back up to the weird fog, frozen mists, and river of time.

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"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."
"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."
"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The Weirwoods do not experience time linearly like humans, and through them Greenseers can see the past (and possibly change it?).

But what about the Others?

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"I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall . . . but it is too late to go running back. The Stranger waits outside my door and will not be denied.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

If time is a river and the Others are ice, are they effected by time at all? If Ice preserves and the Others are incarnations of Ice, do they ever change?

Is it possible that, like frozen water, if they are shifted to strongly they will break?

I don't think it's a wild stretch to postulate that the Others dwell outside of time. When they come the sun does not rise.

They could be like the ferrymen of this river and displeased by those who try and change it.

In the words of another boatman, Dante's Charon:

I have come to take you to the other shore, into eternal darkness, into fire and into ice.

[Curled Finger]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, not exactly. 
 

 What we can take from this that Bran is still experiencing time moving in one direction.  Bran can see what the trees have seen, but he does not have the power to see as the tree sees at this point.  Although BR sees as the tree sees hinting that he has not yet glimpsed that part of Bran's future.

You could think of the salt tear at the Black Gate as  baptism or communion with the gate/portal.  It's followed by additional sacraments, the weirwood paste and the wedding.

I really appreciate your patience.  I think I get the baptismal talk.  Bran has been reborn in the faith of the old gods and is now subject to the gifts of the spirit.  Right?  

We know Bran thinks he's made contact with Ned via his vision and that's where the out of time question springs from.  This makes me wonder if Bran isn't a last greenseer but potentially an old god himself.   In training, of course, but now I'm connecting this to your idea that Bran communicates with Jon from the present through the past if I have it right.  

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

In the words of another boatman, Dante's Charon:

I have come to take you to the other shore, into eternal darkness, into fire and into ice.

OH! Excellent post|!

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Wow! no kidding.  I think there are a lot of parallels to explore between Bran and Dany.

 Doesn't this sound like Bran's precarious situation?  If Dany doesn't get through the red door, she'll be trapped in the HoU?  This dream is where she learns to fly if you read the dream completely.

He, I never noticed that one: Dany running away from the icy breath to avoid the darkness. Bran instead embraces the darkness and gets his own icy breath:

Quote

"Theon," a voice seemed to whisper.

His head snapped up. "Who said that?" All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god's voice, or a ghost's.

 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I really appreciate your patience.  I think I get the baptismal talk.  Bran has been reborn in the faith of the old gods and is now subject to the gifts of the spirit.  Right?  

We know Bran thinks he's made contact with Ned via his vision and that's where the out of time question springs from.  This makes me wonder if Bran isn't a last greenseer but potentially an old god himself.   In training, of course, but now I'm connecting this to your idea that Bran communicates with Jon from the present through the past if I have it right.  

It's as if you are reading my mind! 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I really appreciate your patience.  I think I get the baptismal talk.  Bran has been reborn in the faith of the old gods and is now subject to the gifts of the spirit.  Right?  

We know Bran thinks he's made contact with Ned via his vision and that's where the out of time question springs from.  This makes me wonder if Bran isn't a last greenseer but potentially an old god himself.   In training, of course, but now I'm connecting this to your idea that Bran communicates with Jon from the present through the past if I have it right.  

Sorry, I was a bit tired and nodded off for a while.  No, Bran's connection to Jon at the Skirling Pass has yet to happen.  In Bran's last chapter, he still experiences time moving in one direction.  Bran has yet to see as the tree sees,  Bloodraven tells him he will master that gift in the future.    Bran has yet to become tree-Bran as we see him at the Skirling Pass.  So this is Bran's future to Jon's present on the timeline.  It's Bran moving from his future to his own  past.  But there isn't really a concept of past-present-future for Bran.  All time states are one or melded together.  This is how the tree sees.  

What we get at the Skirling Pass is confirmation that Bran does reach that state sometime after we last see him. Whether that is one, three or ten years, BR does not know.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

No, Bran's connection to Jon at the Skirling Pass has yet to happen.  In Bran's last chapter, he still experiences time moving in one direction.  Bran has yet to see as the tree sees,  Bloodraven tells him he will master that gift in the future.    Bran has yet to become tree-Bran as we see him at the Skirling Pass.  So this is Bran's future to Jon's present on the timeline.  It's Bran moving from his future to his own  past.  But there isn't really a concept of past-present-future for Bran.  All time states are one or melded together.  This is how the tree sees.  

What we get at the Skirling Pass is confirmation that Bran does reach that state sometime after we last see him. Whether that is one, three or ten years, BR does not know.

This makes me keenly aware of how much I hate waiting.  It's coming together.  

[LynnS]

On 11/14/2020 at 11:45 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

"Dreams become lessons, lessons become dreams" (Bran III, ADWD)

Reading your post again Wizz, this jumps out.  The mirroring in the description is the same concept as BR's description of time: the oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak.  Also the way in which Bran and Jon describe the Skirling pass:  Bran touches Ghost and talks to Jon,, Bran talks to Jon, then touches Ghost.  These are dreams or lessons that operate through time: the past to the future, and the future to the past.

That Bran can see the moon from the cave implies that he is seeing with the new weirwood eyes of a greenseer.  Not just from the weirwood above BR's cave but from any tree he visits.  The oak is the acorn as his dream of the Winterfell demonstrates.  His lessons may take him into the past for many of these trees along with their respective histories.  

The sickle moon comes up often and wonder if the sickle moon and the sickle blade used in sacrifice are connected.  Bran may be experiencing the sacrifice made to every tree he visits.  What is the purpose of such a lesson?

   

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

This makes me keenly aware of how much I hate waiting.  It's coming together.  

I'm feeling more optimistic about a release date at this point.   Cantuse's essay was interesting in that he/she speculates that some of the moon imagery in Bran's last chapter may connect to future events.

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/moon_visions/

I think this is true of both the Skirling Pass and Hodor at the entrance to BR's cave.  There is something about Bran suddenly slipping into Hodor without any conscious direction on Bran's part, that makes it feel like he was either pulled or pushed into Hodor by some other agency. 

[LynnS]

On 11/9/2020 at 5:59 PM, Seams said:

'm having another thought here, too. The catspaw was in the stable with Hodor before making his way up to Bran's room. What if Hodor played a role in the attack on Bran and Catelyn? Maybe trying to stop the future abomination of skinchanging by Bran into Hodor's mind?

There is something odd about it.  We have been given an explanation that works, but I've always been struck by the assassin's befuddled state of mind.  

As I recall Hodor won't go into the stable when it's occupied by the assassin.  The only other time this happens is when Hodor refuses to go into the crypt,

Oddly when Bran starts to dream of Jaimie pushing him out the window; he's interrupted by the crow; who tells him to put that memory away; that Bran doesn't need it anymore.  So it seems to me that the things we do for love  involve Bran becoming a cripple.  And the assassination attempt a reason to Bran to flee beyond the Wall to safety.

What agency could be involved?  Well potentially Rickon's direwolf could be a conduit agent for some other force, Something that is  working on the actors involved toward pushing Bran out of the window and them providing the impetus to flee to safety.

 

I get the sense that Hodor won't enter the crypts because he is afraid of Shaggy Dog who is completely out of control.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is something odd about it.  We have been given an explanation that works, but I've always been struck by the assassin's befuddled state of mind.  

You may not be on board with my thoughts on Bran changing Jon's death at Queenscrown, but I think the reason why the Nights Watch seemed so confused or even forced into stabbing Jon is because Jon was still destined to be killed by his own men. I was thinking that Bran changed who left Winterfell with their father. I think Bran was supposed to go with, but he had to be pushed from the tower in order to remain at home and send Arya in his place. If Bran changed things so that he'd be pushed, then the assassin is confused. If Bran had left and Arya stayed home, then the target may have been Arya which actually sounds unlikely, but if she was destined to stay home perhaps her sword fight with Joffrey would have occurred at Winterfell and then Joffrey sent the assassin for humiliating him. Sending an assassin for payback sounds more like Joffrey than ending Bran's life, just because he was crippled. You have to think about the events and how they would have played out if Bran and Arya had NOT changed places.

 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You may not be on board with my thoughts on Bran changing Jon's death at Queenscrown,

We don't have to be on board with one thing or another.  I'm not making a judgement about Queenscrown.  It's another choice.  It's not a rejection in any way.  Anytime Bran slips into Hodor is worth studying.  Queenscrown was the first time and the Cave of Skulls, the second.  I think the playing at swords happened in the days after they reached the safety of the caves.

What interests me about the assassin's state of mind is that he seems befuddled like he just woke up.  

ETA:  How will we know if someone has been skinchanged unless we know what it looks like?   I'm not just talking about Thistle and Hodor.  What about Euron and Howland, maybe.

I'm not suggesting that the assassin was skinchanged though.  

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

We don't have to be on board with one thing or another.  I'm not making a judgement about Queenscrown.  It's another choice.  It's not a rejection in any way.  Anytime Bran slips into Hodor is worth studying.  Queenscrown was the first time and the Cave of Skulls, the second.  I think the playing at swords happened in the days after they reached the safety of the caves.

What interests me about the assassin's state of mind is that he seems befuddled like he just woke up.  

ETA:  How will we know if someone has been skinchanged unless we know what it looks like?   I'm not just talking about Thistle and Hodor.  What about Euron and Howland, maybe.

I'm not suggesting that the assassin was skinchanged though.  

I'm not suggesting the catspaw was skinchanged either, but my thoughts are more in line with how HG Wells Time Machine handled time travel. He tried to go back in time and change his fiancé's death. He was able to prevent her from being shot by the robber in the park, but ultimately he couldn't prevent her death. It's more of a "destiny" thing than a skinchanging thing. If Bran drops down into the ocean of time and tries to change certain things, he ultimately can't change the outcome. Jon is just one example. I posit that Jon was originally killed at Queenscrown, but Bran went back in time to save him. I think it was one of his first attempts at changing the past. Bloodraven told him it couldn't be done, but he probably tried it anyway. He prevented Jon from being stabbed by the Magnar and the other wildlings, but Bran ultimately couldn't prevent Jon from being stabbed by his own men. HOWEVER, maybe Bran knew if Jon became Lord Commander first before dying, then he could rise up as the Nights King? And it might be an improvement that actually DOES change the future.

Here's what I'm thinking with regards to a possible swap between Bran and Arya. No matter what event each Stark kid experiences, it cannot be avoided. Arya fought with the butcher's boy and she threw Joffrey's sword into a river. If Bran changed places with her, then in the original scenario Arya would do those very same things. She'd still have to practice swords with the butcher's boy, and she still would need to throw Joff's sword in some water. Joffrey still has to send a catspaw. What changes is his reason for doing it. 

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Jon is just one example. I posit that Jon was originally killed at Queenscrown, but Bran went back in time to save him

This is very hard to prove.  Did Bran do this from the cave of skulls using Summer? Because the Wall will not allow Bran to warg Summer if they are separated by the Wall.

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is very hard to prove.  Did Bran do this from the cave of skulls using Summer? Because the Wall will not allow Bran to warg Summer if they are separated by the Wall.

If Bran can time travel, he should be able to drop down into the ocean anywhere and at any place in time. Summer was already there and Bran was also already there at Queenscrown, and their connection remained intact. Technically Bran visited himself. Greenseers can see south of the Wall as long as there are weirwoods in the vicinity. What we don't know for sure is what "flying" means. Does "flying" involve only entering dreams or does it mean that the greenseer can jump to a specific location in the form of a lightning strike? 

[LynnS]

46 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

If Bran can time travel, he should be able to drop down into the ocean anywhere and at any place in time. Summer was already there and Bran was also already there at Queenscrown, and their connection remained intact. Technically Bran visited himself. Greenseers can see south of the Wall as long as there are weirwoods in the vicinity. What we don't know for sure is what "flying" means. Does "flying" involve only entering dreams or does it mean that the greenseer can jump to a specific location in the form of a lightning strike? 

This gets too far into the weeds for me.  We cant say that he should be able to do anything or everything at some point.  That makes everything suspect.  I'm sorry, I just don't see it working this way.

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This gets too far into the weeds for me.  We cant say that he should be able to do anything or everything at some point.  That makes everything suspect.  I'm sorry, I just don't see it working this way.

No worries. Technically if GRRM is doing something, he usually does it in threes. The first time isn't so clear. The second example usually has more detail, and the third seems to confirm it. So, I'll keep an eye out if I see a third. Right now I think being pushed from the tower is "one", and saving Jon is "two". 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

No worries. Technically if GRRM is doing something, he usually does it in threes. The first time isn't so clear. The second example usually has more detail, and the third seems to confirm it. So, I'll keep an eye out if I see a third. Right now I think being pushed from the tower is "one", and saving Jon is "two". 

Excellent! Thank you Feather.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

No worries. Technically if GRRM is doing something, he usually does it in threes. The first time isn't so clear. The second example usually has more detail, and the third seems to confirm it. So, I'll keep an eye out if I see a third. Right now I think being pushed from the tower is "one", and saving Jon is "two". 

Keep an eye on the snowstorm around Winterfell. Characters in multiple sides attribute it to the gods

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"What has your southron god to do with snow?" demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. "This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease."

"Aye," said Big Bucket Wull. "Red Rahloo means nothing here. You will only make the old gods angry. They are watching from their island."