Time and Causality

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Black Crow

Hello Black Crow!  Since GRRM has said recently that Rickon has an important part to play in the story; do you have any thoughts on what that might be?

 

I touched on this a little in Heresy when I first mentioned that GRRM had said this. Its also consistent with GRRM's statement way backat the beginning when he said that the story was about the Children of Winterfell - and a couple of others. Rickon wasn't part of the original ensemble, he was added. He's since disappeared again but still has an important part to play.

To me this says that GRRM identified a need for him to play a part which the others aren't, or can't. This in turn implies a shift. The trees have eyes again, but Bran Bendigeidfran, is planted beneath the white hill and has no body so will need an agent.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Black Crow

Hello Black Crow!  Since GRRM has said recently that Rickon has an important part to play in the story; do you have any thoughts on what that might be?

Rickon seems to have a special connection to at least three direwolves.  

I'm wondering if Rickon will emerge as the leader of Nymeria's wolf pack and if his power will be in controlling the pack. GRRM's version of a Tilkein's warg army.

Interesting question. I think Rickon being a leader in some guise is a real possibility. Everything you've laid out in this post is in support of that idea, and there's the meaning of his name. 

The name Rickon is made up for asoiaf, but is an offshoot of the name Richard or Rick/Ricky. A Google search has suggested....

 Names that sound like Rickon.....

Name	Meaning
Rickard	Powerful leader
Ricker	Strong army
Rickert	Powerful leader
Rickman	Powerful
Rickward	Mighty guardian
Rickwood	Mighty guardian

.

That's pretty cool! Not sure if you knew that, but it fits perfectly with your suggestion of Rickon as a leader.

Personally, I don't see Rickon leading the direwolves (it would be an awkward family reunion as the wolves flock to baby Rickon's side, leaving the powerful Stark sibling wargs standing around so to speak)

But I think Rickon being taught the ways of some hardened northerners from Skagos will toughen him up, and bodes well regards him becoming a leader. Add the fact we know he's a warg brings in the real possibility that he may lead a bunch of unicorns as well as the Skagosi army. It all fits.  

Highly speculative, but hey, one can dream. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Interesting question. I think Rickon being a leader in some guise is a real possibility. Everything you've laid out in this post is in support if that idea, and there's the meaning on his name. 

Rickon is made up for asoiaf, but is an offshoot of the name Richard or Rick/Ricky. A Google search has suggested....

 Names that sound like Rickon.....

Name	Meaning
Rickard	Powerful leader
Ricker	Strong army
Rickert	Powerful leader
Rickman	Powerful
Rickward	Mighty guardian
Rickwood	Mighty guardian

.

That's pretty cool! Not sure if you knew that, but it fits perfectly with your suggestion of Rickon as a leader.

Personally, I don't see Rickon leading the direwolves (it would be an awkward family reunion as the wolves flock to baby Rickon's side, leaving the powerful Stark sibling wargs standing around so to speak)

But I think Rickon being taught the ways of a hardened northerner from Skagos to toughen him up boxes well regards him becoming a leader. Add the fact we know he's a warg and it brings in the real possibility that he may lead a bunch of unicorns as well as the Skagosi army. It all fits.  

Highly speculative, but hey, one can dream. 

I didn't know the meaning of his name.  I had hopes in the show that Rickon would skinchange Ramsey's girls and woe to Ramsey.  The direwolves seem to favor Rickon for some reason.  So I wonder if will control the Nymeria's pack currently roaming close to Harrenhall with Nymeria and Shaggy Dog.

I'm also expecting. something with the Skagosi fighting for Rickon or Bran's cause.   

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Alternatively, the trees have just watched Bran perform way above expectations, (he was only supposed to enter the roots of the weirwood atop the cave/Hhill they are in) so perhaps the trees/Gseers were like......  "shit, call in the Bman, we've got ourselves an unprecedented prodigy on our blood red hands here"

Weren’t the instructions to follow the roots? 

Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Which trees on what hill? 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. 

 

[Melifeather]

I’d like to see how GRRM figures out a way for Rickon to grow up in time to be a leader! How many years have passed since 4-year old Rickon left with Osha? 
 

Some Pig/Pretty Pig has a different theory about Rickon’s fate: a ward of Wayman Manderly, and maybe not in a good way.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Weren’t the instructions to follow the roots? 

Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Which trees on what hill? 

Hey Melifeather.

BR, Bran & co are in a hollow hill with weirwoods growing above. So he means the trees directly atop the hill BR's cave is beneath. He says for Bran to go into the roots of that specific tree, the one that Bran is sitting on, and to report back on what he saw. It seems to me that BR wanted Bran to go into that specific tree and that tree only. But Bran unexpectedly went to Winterfell's heart tree, and not just that but travelled backwards in time and saw visions from the past.

25 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. 

I think this passage is BR trying to explain away the unexpected feats Bran has achieved and reported back. He tried to speak to Ned and was sure his father heard him. I reckon BR was trying to dampen this enthusiasm as he doesn't think anything like that is possible. (As BR himself cannot achieve such feats) He thinks Bran was too emotional, following his heart, he wanted him to adhere to the lesson and instead went on a mad trip down Winterfell memory lane saying he could speak to past Ned. 

I don't buy BR's line........

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home"

Nah, I dont think it was just that. I reckon Bran saw some important visions with information that BR wasn't expecting a novice to see. 

   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I’d like to see how GRRM figures out a way for Rickon to grow up in time to be a leader! How many years have passed since 4-year old Rickon left with Osha? 
 

Some Pig/Pretty Pig has a different theory about Rickon’s fate: a ward of Wayman Manderly, and maybe not in a good way.

Haha! Fair point. A child leading men far older than themselves wouldn't be totally out of the question in asoiaf though. Bran was Lord of Winterfell, Lyanna Mormont etc.

I think it would be more like someone the Skagosi war lords could follow.

The Ned's boy, a Stark, a warg, a beastling, a demon, a shapechanger. A savage direwolf.

They know he would scare opposition. Young or not, he's seriously dangerous when warging Shaggydog. There's a strong possibility the Skagosi would revere such power. 

So perhaps not a leader in terms of heading the fighting men as a 7 year old. But certainly one to follow and fight for.  

EDIT: I've gotta say, I think everything above is a distinct possibility and as George has suggested Rickon will be important I'm willing to believe he will play a key role in a battle or in bringing the north together.

But... after that I unfortunately don't see him surviving. A Shaggydog story with a slight difference I suppose.  

[Lollygag]

I’m only on page 6 of this thread so far and jumping in the middle always feels like double-dutch, but I have to get the ideas out now…

So full disclaimer, I struggle with time travel on a number of levels.

Just for reference, I kind of think of it more of comparison relationships. Think of how when Superman moves very quickly, everything around him moves very slowly. Except it really doesn’t. It’s all perspective.

I suspect it’s the same with the trees as they move very, very slowly. BR seems to exist in this slow time as he’s a lot older than he has any right to be at this point. So by comparison, if we move much more slowly, everything else moves faster, perhaps making the range of time covered a lot longer than our normal experience explaining the experience of traveling through time.

I’m always going to relate things back to the human experience and I think that’s important. If we focus on a single thing, become consumed by it, become still, time goes by very quickly, seeming minutes might be hours. Likewise if we move quickly, everything else slows, kind of like how a watched pot never boils. Look at the clock, look at the clock, fiddle with the sink, is it boiling yet? wipe the crumb off the counter, pet the dog, look at the clock, is it boiling yet?... We move quickly, and time slows and the pot takes forever.

On 11/10/2020 at 8:37 AM, LynnS said:

Quite often Hodor is described as humming.  I've wondered what he hears.  I've likened it to listening to electricity running through a hydro line. 

 

Technically, Hodor could sing his name over and over, but humming is really more vibrations, waves. Maybe it’s worth someone paying attention to his humming. Makes me think of Music of the Spheres, math and sound waves, though I’m not sure GRRM is going there. It does seem organic to me that the Greenseer/CotF magic is knowing the vibrations of nature, a song. Also sounds like the moon which has gravitational pulls which creates waves which reminds me the Hammer of the Waters.

@Melifeather Always assumed Craster's curse had to do with his mother being from Whitetree with that monster weirwood with the not-sheep bones. Ygritte says he bears a heavy curse as a matter of fact, neither condemning him nor honoring him. So why is Craster no longer at Whitetree? Is he doing something different now for some reason? It would fit that Craster was maybe born with certain traditions of sacrifice (often done in obligation and tradition in this world) and things are different now.

On 11/16/2020 at 12:37 PM, Tucu said:

Bran I to III in ADWD reminds me a lot of Dany in the House of the Undying. Both go through a "black gate" shaped like a mouth and enter a twisty passage, then go around in circles having visions and they finally reach an awful scene where some ancient corpses promise them the "wisdom of those who have conquered death". Drogon saves Dany from being consumed by the corpses, but Bran is still trapped there being consumed.

Absolutely! And it should be remembered that like BR, Dany is half Targ, half Blackwood.

I can't find it offhand as it appears the thread is now archived, but I think those are warped weirwoods and Dany literally went into the tree like Bran and BR do and they're warped because of they've found a way to go into the trees wirelessly. Watch Pyat especially. When he's outside of the building, he's on fire even though the fire's inside. The description of the inside (going in spirals, doors only on one side sound like being in a tree. While BR and Bran see things which make sense, I think Dany sees warped things because the trees themselves have become corrupted by bad magic to allow this wireless connect.

Driving me bats that I can't recall the name of that thread and the search won't pull.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

So full disclaimer, I struggle with time travel on a number of levels.

Hello Lollugag!  Thank you for joining.  I appreciate that you are skeptical and I love your description of time as relative.    You always have such an interesting perspective.  Please stay with us! 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Absolutely! And it should be remembered that like BR, Dany is half Targ, half Blackwood.

I can't find it offhand as it appears the thread is now archived, but I think those are warped weirwoods and Dany literally went into the tree like Bran and BR do and they're warped because of they've found a way to go into the trees wirelessly. Watch Pyat especially. When he's outside of the building, he's on fire even though the fire's inside. The description of the inside (going in spirals, doors only on one side sound like being in a tree. While BR and Bran see things which make sense, I think Dany sees warped things because the trees themselves have become corrupted by bad magic to allow this wireless connect.

This is something, I've never heard before!  Brilliant! I've also never thought of the doors to the House of Black as weirwood and blackwood either.  Those doors also feature in the House of Undying!

I'd like to hear more about Dany being half targ and half blackwood.

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Nah, I dont think it was just that. I reckon Bran saw some important visions with information that BR wasn't expecting a novice to see. 

Leaf says the trees will teach him and the first tree he's taken to is the Winterfell tree.  Ned's Ghost was also drawn back to Winterfell. What the trees show you might be different for each Gseer, I wonder why Leaf asks Bran what he has seen.  Hasn't BR seen everything there is to see about Winterfell's tree,  Maybe not.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'd like to hear more about Dany being half targ and half blackwood.

Both Dany and Stannis have recent wolf blood through their great-grandparents Aegon V/Betha Blackwood marriage. As Jaehaerys and Aerys married their sisters there is still a good portion of wolf blood on her. Maybe this is why she came "howling into the world".

The Stark children themselves also got an extra shot of wolf blood through Rickard's grandmother Melantha.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Both Dany and Stannis have recent wolf blood through their great-grandparents Aegon V/Betha Blackwood marriage. As Jaehaerys and Aerys married their sisters there is still a good portion of wolf blood on her. Maybe this is why she came "howling into the world".

The Stark children themselves also got an extra shot of wolf blood through Rickard's grandmother Melantha.

Just so!  Bloodraven is also  targ and a blackwood.  Lollygag has reframed the doors to the HoB&W!  Whitewood and Blackwood!  I didn't make that connection before.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Also sounds like the moon which has gravitational pulls which creates waves which reminds me the Hammer of the Waters.

This is interesting because I have been thinking about the moon's gravity and it's affect on Planetos and the story of the two moons in the sky.  I don't think there were ever two moons.  Instead there was a moon and a comet that was so bright, it looked like a moon.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

"They want to hunt," agreed Gage the cook as he tossed cubes of suet in a great kettle of stew. "A wolf smells better'n any man. Like as not, they've caught the scent o' prey."

Maester Luwin did not think so. "Wolves often howl at the moon. These are howling at the comet. See how bright it is, Bran? Perchance they think it is the moon."

Irri gives it away when she says the moon flew too close to the sun.  That's a comet and not a moon.  I can see how early peoples would mistake the comet for the moon and how it would enter their legends in a fantastical or religious way.

I think the comet has a long periodic orbit and has been seen several time including somewhere in the legends of Azor Ahai and this is why Melisandre is making it the harbinger of AA's return.  It might also be tied into the icons used by the Andals and their bleeding stars.  Their first invasion of Westeros may have been a result of warfare in Essos driving them off the continent when fire magic was increased by the appearance of the comet.  This could give us a periodic range of 6 thousand years.

So this comet has a near earth bypass between Planetos and the moon which would make appear to collide with the moon to eyes who have never seen such a thing.  If there was a crack in the moon, nobody else has ever commented on it.  It would be more akin to this observation:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

She followed him out onto the stone balcony that jutted three-sided from the solar like the prow of a ship. Her uncle glanced up, frowning. "You can see it by day now. My men call it the Red Messenger . . . but what is the message?"

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. "The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue." She sighed. "I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color."

A crack in the moon,  that eventually disappears.

So what gravitational force does GRRM's magic comet have in combination with the moon?  Perhaps it has caused the planet's north south axis to wobble in such a way that the season's are affected.  Martin says that the cause of the seasons being out of kilter is magical.  Perhaps the cause is the magic comet. 

ETA:  You can visualize the effect by thinking about how a tops spins.  What does another comet fly-by do to the seasons?   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Driving me bats that I can't recall the name of that thread and the search won't pull.

Was it this one by Crowfoods Daughter?

There's the YouTube video as well. 

Hope this is the right one, it's definitely a good one if not. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't think there were ever two moons.  Instead there was a moon and a comet that was so bright, it looked like a moon.

I agree.  That's the one big dispute I had with LML's theory about an initial comet strike.  He has the idea that the world once had two moons and one was destroyed by a comet.  The problem with that theory is the destruction it caused would probably wipe out almost all life.  The other problem is that more civilizations then just Qarth would have mythologies involving a time when there was two moons in the sky.

I think it's much more likely that a comet got caught in the planet's gravitational pull and started orbiting around the planet (thus resulting in at least briefly a second moon) and the planet's gravitational pull ultimately pulled it into the planet or into the atmosphere where it exploded resulting in the events the formed the mythology of the Long Night.

This is basically the premise of Ignatius Donnelly's book: Ragnorak: An Age of Fire and Gravel.  

Donnelly was a fairly influential writer of pseudo-scientific theories involving Atlantis and the Flood mythologies which permeate a lot of civilizations.

He theorized that a near comet strike over Greenland caused flooding and a hail of debris which caused a near extinction level event and was the inspiration for apocolyptic tales like Ragnorok and the Bible's Great Flood.

More recently, in 1995, Graham Hancock wrote a book on a similar topic called Fingerprints of the Gods: The Evidence of Earth's Lost Civilization.  This book theorized that a meteor strike caused the Earth to shift on its poles so dramatically that it caused Antartica to shift to the South Pole of the Earth causing a lost civilization to be buried under newly formed Polar Ice caps.  

There is also another theory, Younger Dryas Impact theory.   A theory that a distintigrating comet struck North America some 12,000 years ago causing a near extinction level event.  Here again we have the idea of flooding, and debris and a resultant cooling of the planet.  

All of these theories have been floating around for some time, and it seems that GRRM, being a pseudo science guy himself was probably cognizant of them during the time he wrote AGOT.

 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree.  That's the one big dispute I had with LML's theory about an initial comet strike.  He has the idea that the world once had two moons and one was destroyed by a comet.  The problem with that theory is the destruction it caused would probably wipe out almost all life.  The other problem is that more civilizations then just Qarth would have mythologies involving a time when there was two moons in the sky.

The other thing Irri says is that the moon drank in the sun and cracked in two.  So I can see a comet returning from the sun trailing debris which may have rained down on Planetos.  But also in a reduced mass.  She also says the moon will return one day.  I'm paraphrasing but essentially again a comet that has a near earth trajectory on it's way to the sun and a return to the oort cloud on it's way out of the solar system. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Always assumed Craster's curse had to do with his mother being from Whitetree with that monster weirwood with the not-sheep bones. Ygritte says he bears a heavy curse as a matter of fact, neither condemning him nor honoring him. So why is Craster no longer at Whitetree? Is he doing something different now for some reason? It would fit that Craster was maybe born with certain traditions of sacrifice (often done in obligation and tradition in this world) and things are different now.

Craster's father was a man of the Watch that broke his vow to father no children. Oathbreaking is taken very seriously:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran V

Robb walked over to her. She was a head taller than he was, but she dropped to her knees at his approach. "Give me my life, m'lord of Stark, and I am yours."

"Mine? What would I do with an oathbreaker?"

"I broke no oaths. Stiv and Wallen flew down off the Wall, not me. The black crows got no place for women."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Robb answered each of them with cool courtesy, much as Father might have, and somehow he bent them to his will.

And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well.

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Mole's Town was bigger than it seemed, but three quarters of it was under the ground, in deep warm cellars connected by a maze of tunnels. Even the whorehouse was down there, nothing on the surface but a wooden shack no bigger than a privy, with a red lantern hung over the door. On the Wall, he'd heard men call the whores "buried treasures." He wondered whether any of his brothers in black were down there tonight, mining. That was oathbreaking too, yet no one seemed to care.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"They'll cut off your head if they catch you, you know," Toad put in with a nervous laugh. "This is so stupid, it's like something the Aurochs would do."

"I would not," Grenn said. "I'm no oathbreaker. I said the words and I meant them."

"So did I," Jon told them. "Don't you understand? They murdered my father. It's war, my brother Robb is fighting in the riverlands—"

There are many more passages regarding oathbreakers, but I'm not going to post them all. Most of them were about desertion, but going to Mole's Town to bed a whore is mentioned as oathbreaking also, it's just that no one cares.

Craster made sure to marry every daughter he fancied and he calls himself a righteous man. It seems evident that it really bothered him that his father denied him and broke his Nights Watch vow of fathering no children. Craster is a bastard and yet he derides Jon Snow for being a bastard. Why would he do that knowing he himself is one? His conscience is clean, because he got good with the old gods. If you haven't ready my essay regarding my reasons for this theory, here is a link.

 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Was it this one by Crowfoods Daughter?

There's the YouTube video as well. 

Hope this is the right one, it's definitely a good one if not. 

I will check that out but it was a totally random, more everyday thread where someone said something that triggered me and there were other posters who helped fill it in which is what's making it hard to find.

I appreciate the try and the recommendation!

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Craster's father was a man of the Watch that broke his vow to father no children. Oathbreaking is taken very seriously:

There are many more passages regarding oathbreakers, but I'm not going to post them all. Most of them were about desertion, but going to Mole's Town to bed a whore is mentioned as oathbreaking also, it's just that no one cares.

Craster made sure to marry every daughter he fancied and he calls himself a righteous man. It seems evident that it really bothered him that his father denied him and broke his Nights Watch vow of fathering no children. Craster is a bastard and yet he derides Jon Snow for being a bastard. Why would he do that knowing he himself is one? His conscience is clean, because he got good with the old gods. If you haven't ready my essay regarding my reasons for this theory, here is a link.

 

Oh, I agree that these things are all very important!

I do have them connected differently in my head, though. While oathbreaking is important in the series, it's also stated that the NW aren't exactly celibate and I have to believe it's fairly common for them to father bastards on the women north of the Wall. This leads me to believe that the oath is interpreted more as not acknowledging any children which would conflict with the oath - sort of like Jaime. But we don't see the stigma. Also I don't see Ygritte caring much for oathbreaking of this sort. She also says that people from the same village don't hook up because they might be siblings indicating they don't have a culture that strictly keeps track of paternity. Black blood is strongly linked the NW, but it's mentioned in a number of other places not connected to the NW, but it does seem consistent that it's linked to the doomed or cursed. I have to think when Ygritte says black blood, she's speaking strictly of the curse, not acknowledging NW culture which she doesn't respect.

I agree that Craster's devoutness and touchiness about his bastardry are a big clue. At present, I'm inclined to think Craster is a descendant of the Casterlys of Casterly Rock who's original ancestor Caster was blessed by the old gods with gold for saving the lion. I suspect their dispelling from Casterly Rock and ending up as refugees perhaps in the far north may have had something to do with the Pact and the traditions at Whitetree which would explain why godliness is so important to him. I doubt Craster knows this specifically as it's so common to forget the old truths in this series, but it makes sense that he was raised being told he's from a high family and very important with important religious traditions - hence why he seeks to replicate this status North of the Wall as this suggests he's internalized this quite a bit. More in my Is Craster a Casterly? thread. It's a stretch, but I hinge this on all of the Lannister symbols and themes around him.

[Lollygag]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hello Lollugag!  Thank you for joining.  I appreciate that you are skeptical and I love your description of time as relative.    You always have such an interesting perspective.  Please stay with us! 

This is something, I've never heard before!  Brilliant! I've also never thought of the doors to the House of Black as weirwood and blackwood either.  Those doors also feature in the House of Undying!

I'd like to hear more about Dany being half targ and half blackwood.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm skeptical, just that I'm very time-challenged (it's actually a family joke) and I have to have use crutches of a sort to follow along with the OP!

Dany's line is inbred since Egg and his Blackwood wife (forget her name), meaning Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany are all half Blackwood like BR. No idea what it may mean, but it feels very significant. Seems the history of the Blackwoods is being kept close to the chest so it must be spoilery. In the OP when considering the effect on the Stark kids, I have to wonder if Dany belongs in that group, as well.