Time and Causality

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I do have them connected differently in my head, though. While oathbreaking is important in the series, it's also stated that the NW aren't exactly celibate and I have to believe it's fairly common for them to father bastards on the women north of the Wall. This leads me to believe that the oath is interpreted more as not acknowledging any children which would conflict with the oath - sort of like Jaime. But we don't see the stigma. Also I don't see Ygritte caring much for oathbreaking of this sort. She also says that people from the same village don't hook up because they might be siblings indicating they don't have a culture that strictly keeps track of paternity. Black blood is strongly linked the NW, but it's mentioned in a number of other places not connected to the NW, but it does seem consistent that it's linked to the doomed or cursed. I have to think when Ygritte says black blood, she's speaking strictly of the curse, not acknowledging NW culture which she doesn't respect.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.   But I have a few more passages to share....

Sam connects Craster's black blood to his ranger father - and his bastardy: 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Good. Craster's Keep is just ahead. If the gods are good, he'll let us sleep by his fire."

Sam looked dubious. "Dolorous Edd says Craster's a terrible savage. He marries his daughters and obeys no laws but those he makes himself. And Dywen told Grenn he's got black blood in his veins. His mother was a wildling woman who lay with a ranger, so he's a bas . . ." Suddenly he realized what he was about to say.

It's Craster's opinion that men should marry before taking a woman to bed so as to not father any bastards:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"My steward and squire, Jon Snow."

"A bastard, is it?" Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do." He shooed Jon off with a wave. "Well, run and do your service, bastard, and see that axe is good and sharp now, I've no use for dull steel."

To me that "black blood" that Craster has was inherited from his Crow father. It's true that the wildlings don't look down upon bastards except Craster - Craster hated bastards:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

"He was never fed," said Dirk. "Not proper. That bastard Craster starved him dead."

Sam looked around anxiously, but Craster had not returned to the hall. If he had, things might have grown ugly. The wildling hated bastards, though the rangers said he was baseborn himself, fathered on a wildling woman by some long-dead crow.

 

He hates being called a bastard so much he'll try to kill the one who said it:
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

"Bloody bastard!" Sam heard one of the Garths curse. He never saw which one.

"Who calls me bastard?" Craster roared, sweeping platter and meat and wine cups from the table with his left hand while lifting the axe with his right.

"It's no more than all men know," Karl answered.

Craster moved quicker than Sam would have believed possible, vaulting across the table with axe in hand. A woman screamed, Garth Greenaway and Orphan Oss drew knives, Karl stumbled back and tripped over Ser Byam lying wounded on the floor. One instant Craster was coming after him spitting curses. The next he was spitting blood. Dirk had grabbed him by the hair, yanked his head back, and opened his throat ear to ear with one long slash. Then he gave him a rough shove, and the wildling fell forward, crashing face first across Ser Byam. Byam screamed in agony as Craster drowned in his own blood, the axe slipping from his fingers. Two of Craster's wives were wailing, a third cursed, a fourth flew at Sweet Donnel and tried to scratch his eyes out. He knocked her to the floor. The Lord Commander stood over Craster's corpse, dark with anger. "The gods will curse us," he cried. "There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man's hall. By all the laws of the hearth, we—"

 

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

He theorized that a near comet strike over Greenland caused flooding and a hail of debris which caused a near extinction level event and was the inspiration for apocolyptic tales like Ragnorok and the Bible's Great Flood.

Well GRRM did bring up Noah's flood and Gilgamesh which I believe is also the older flood story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth#:~:text=The Gilgamesh flood myth is a flood myth,the flood story from the Epic of Atrahasis.

I'm inclined to think that the Hammer of the Waters as a flood myth has it's origins in glacial dam breaks.

Quote

In geomorphology, an outburst flood — a type of megaflood — is a high-magnitude, low-frequency catastrophic flood involving the sudden release of a large quantity of water.[1][2] During the last deglaciation, numerous glacial lake outburst floods were caused by the collapse of either ice sheets or glaciers that formed the dams of proglacial lakes. Examples of older outburst floods are known from the geological past of the Earth and inferred from geomorphological evidence on Mars. Landslides, lahars, and volcanic dams can also block rivers and create lakes, which trigger such floods when the rock or earthen barrier collapses or is eroded. Lakes also form behind glacial moraines, which can collapse and create outburst floods.[3] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood

Breaking the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters seems to have been some Great Magic.  Bran the Breaker comes to mind. I suppose you could think of the Wall as another kind of ice dam as well.  If magic can put up a wall, then potentially it can bring one down.

[LynnS]

Lollygag brings up the interesting idea that we can think of the doors of the House of Black and White as Blackwood and Whitewood.

Jaqen swears an oath to Arya:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

First he swears by all the gods of sea and air throws in Him of Fire.  Are these the gods represented by the blackwood door?

Then he puts his hand in the mouth of the weirwood and swears by the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count.  If he is making a distinction between the white and black door; these are the gods of the white door.  That seems obvious because of the weirwood door.

But who are the gods of the blackwood door if it isn't the drowned god and the storm god? 

the gesture that Jaqen makes placing his hand into the mouth of the weirwood to give his oath more substance or weight. What does it mean?

Is this anything like Jaqen's gesture?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Dead Othor slammed into him, knocking him off his feet.

Jon's breath went out of him as the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe …

 

  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Lollygag brings up the interesting idea that we can think of the doors of the House of Black and White as Blackwood and Whitewood.

  

@Lollygag always brings up something interesting.  So we've got House Blackwood tied to the weirwoods (white woods?).  Does it stop there or is there some inversion of this association for the shade of the evening trees?  Yah, she does that to my brain all the time.  

[Tucu]

41 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Lollygag always brings up something interesting.  So we've got House Blackwood tied to the weirwoods (white woods?).  Does it stop there or is there some inversion of this association for the shade of the evening trees?  Yah, she does that to my brain all the time.  

The Raventree weirwood is gigantic and has metaphorical black leaves:

Quote

 a weirwood of colossal size whose upper branches could be seen from leagues away, like bony fingers scratching at the sky.

Quote

It was a weirwood ancient and colossal, ten times the size of the one in the Stone Garden at Casterly Rock

Quote

They come at dusk and roost all night. Hundreds of them. They cover the tree like black leaves, every limb and every branch. They have been coming for thousands of years

 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

The Raventree weirwood is gigantic and has methaporical black leaves:

 

Ah very very nice.   Thankee, Sai.  

[LynnS]

Has anyone done a study on House Blackwood? 

[LynnS]

I'm really enjoyed Crowfood's Daughter's essay!  This:

Quote

 

Current storyline significance

From here we now have pondered the possibility of what could be the origins for the black oily stone.  Now let’s look at another quote and see what we make of it:

Though Aeron clamped his mouth shut, twisting his head from side to side he fought as best he could, but in the end he had to choke or swallow. The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles.

This last quote is somewhat confusing to some readers as this plainly looks like some straight up Lovecraft monster reference, but remember that Euron is kind of a Shade of the Evening junkie so to speak and Shade of the Evening is basically a brother from another mother to Weirwood paste... and what does weirwood paste do? It weds you to the tree, the writhing tentacles is a greenseer/tree man symbol in Aeron’s dream

 

I would bet money the Shade of the Evening Tree does this... - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

Oily black stones as petrified remnants of Shade of the Evening Tree.  I buy that completely.  I suspect an even more direct connection Between Euron and the House of Undying than a few casks of the wizard's drink.

[LynnS]

Spoiler

Euron hangs Pyat Pree from the rafters without his legs in the Forsaken chapter, in what seems to me a mockery of Bran. A suitable punishment for letting Dany get away?  

I have wondered if Euron entered the HoU at some point and if he left a part of himself behind.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

It seems to me that when Dany burns down the HoU, some of these souls have returned to their original bodies:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

It seems that Dany met Blind Sybassion, the eater of eyes in the HoU.

Mocking a warlock's wardrobe has dire consequences.  Madness may ensue:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

No sooner had she eased off her shoes than Jocelyn entered timidly to say that Qyburn was without and craved audience. "Send him in," the queen commanded. A ruler gets no rest.

Qyburn was old, but his hair still had more ash than snow in it, and the laugh lines around his mouth made him look like some little girl's favorite grandfather. A rather shabby grandfather, though. The collar of his robe was frayed, and one sleeve had been torn and badly sewn. "I must beg Your Grace's pardon for my appearance," he said. "I have been down in the dungeons making inquiries into the Imp's escape, as you commanded."

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

"Thickened? Thickened how? With some other substance?"

"It may be as Your Grace suggests, though in most cases adulterating a poison only lessens its potency. It may be that the cause is . . . less natural, let us say. A spell, I think."

Is this one as big a fool as Pycelle? "So are you telling me that the Mountain is dying of some black sorcery?"

Qyburn ignored the mockery in her voice. "He is dying of the venom, but slowly, and in exquisite agony. My efforts to ease his pain have proved as fruitless as Pycelle's. Ser Gregor is overly accustomed to the poppy, I fear. His squire tells me that he is plagued by blinding headaches and oft quaffs the milk of the poppy as lesser men quaff ale. Be that as it may, his veins have turned black from head to heel, his water is clouded with pus, and the venom has eaten a hole in his side as large as my fist. It is a wonder that the man is still alive, if truth be told."

A spell?  Who could have adulterated the poison with a spell, if it wasn't Qyburn himself?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

"Do you?" That intrigued her. "Very well. The Mountain is yours. Do what you will with him, but confine your studies to the black cells. When he dies, bring me his head. My father promised it to Dorne. Prince Doran would no doubt prefer to kill Gregor himself, but we all must suffer disappointments in this life."

"Very good, Your Grace." Qyburn cleared his throat. "I am not so well provided as Pycelle, however. I must needs equip myself with certain . . ."

"I shall instruct Lord Gyles to provide you with gold sufficient for your needs. Buy yourself some new robes as well. You look as though you've wandered up from Flea Bottom." She studied his eyes, wondering how far she dared trust this one. "Need I say that it will go ill for you if any word of your . . . labors . . . should pass beyond these walls?"

The next time we see Qyburn his wardrobe is splendid.  Qyburn the white wizard!

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

Will you? Last night Cersei had dreamed of the old woman, with her pebbly jowls and croaking voice. Maggy the Frog, they had called her in Lannisport. If Father had known what she said to me, he would have had her tongue out. Cersei had never told anyone, though, not even Jaime. Melara said that if we never spoke about her prophecies, we would forget them. She said that a forgotten prophecy couldn't come true.

"I have informers sniffing after the Imp everywhere, Your Grace," said Qyburn. He had garbed himself in something very like maester's robes, but white instead of grey, immaculate as the cloaks of the Kingsguard. Whorls of gold decorated his hem, sleeves, and stiff high collar, and a golden sash was tied about his waist. "Oldtown, Gulltown, Dorne, even the Free Cities. Wheresoever he might run, my whisperers will find him."

If Qyburn is the kingly (kindly) man who greets Dany after entering the doors of the HoB&W; then who are these others?  Is Euron the wizard king?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."

"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

"We knew you were to come to us," the wizard king said. "A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way."

"We have knowledge to share with you," said a warrior in shining emerald armor, "and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered."

Who else do we know who takes pleasure in twisting nipples if it isn't Qyburn?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

A spell?  Who could have adulterated the poison with a spell, if it wasn't Qyburn himself?

 

A Martell spell. No. Cancel that. A Rhoynar spell that the Martells know. 
 

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

 

A Martell spell. No. Cancel that. A Rhoynar spell that the Martells know. 
 

You would think so at first glance,  I don't trust anything Qyburn says.  I think he's invested in extending Gregor life as long as possible and if there was a spell to do that, it's likely his doing.  He's continuing his vivisections he practiced at the Citadel and that probably involved dark sorcery.  More advanced than anything the Martell's could conjure up.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

You would think so at first glance,  I don't trust anything Qyburn says.  I think he's invested in extending Gregor life as long as possible and if there was a spell to do that, it's likely his doing.  He's continuing his vivisections he practiced at the Citadel and that probably involved dark sorcery.  More advanced than anything the Martell's could conjure up.

Maybe I misunderstood what Qyburn said, but I thought he said the poison included a spell? And that is why Gregor was still alive? The spell keeps him alive so that he is tortured by the poison for as long as possible.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe I misunderstood what Qyburn said, but I thought he said the poison included a spell? And that is why Gregor was still alive? The spell keeps him alive so that he is tortured by the poison for as long as possible.

Yes you're right.  I'm saying Qyburn is lying and he's applied his own spell to prolong Gregor's life.

[LynnS]

Tangential to the subject at hand, something that came up in another thread got me thinking about the letter sent to Brandon Stark and why he rushed off to King's Landing. I think Barristan Selmy gives us the answer having overheard certain things while attending Aerys at court.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 It's this: the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal.

When Brabdon rushes off to KL, he doesn't demand that Lyanna be released or mention her at all.  This is a matter of honor. An accusation has been made putting a stain on the Stark honor and the reason Hoster Tully calls Brandon a gallant fool. It's a ruse of course. a lie to get hold of Brandon.  Putting Rhaegar's name to the letter when he isn't there to countermand it; is a betrayal of Rhaegar.

Tyrion tells us who is responsible"

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 

[Mourning Star]

Quote

"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"
The other chuckled. "No less." Flames licked at the cold air.

A Game of Thrones - Arya III

Both the Alchemists of King's Landing and the Warlocks of Quarth have moth eaten robes. So does our wizard Varys.

Quote

The eunuch was lurking in the dark of a twisting turnpike stair, garbed in a moth-eaten brown robe with a hood that hid the paleness of his face. "You were so long, I feared that something had gone amiss," he said when he saw Tyrion.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI

The master of whisperers had been dressed as a begging brother, in a moth-eaten robe of brown roughspun with a cowl that shadowed his smooth fat cheeks and bald round head. "You should not have climbed that ladder," he said reproachfully.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I

So is there a connection here between time and moths?

Quote

A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

I'm not sure I have a good answer, while there does seem to be a conection between time and moths, at least in so far as the imagrey is repeated, there also seems to be a connection to lies.

Quote

The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

The moths are literally lies here, and Littlefinger is "disguised" as Robert. But I don't have a great explanation.

Quote

"When you come to the chamber of the Undying, be patient. Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them. Listen well, and write each word upon your heart."

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

This is almost exactly what Bloodraven tells Bran. I for one think the black trees of the Undying are Weirwoods of a different color.

Quote

The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. His screams became one long, wordless shriek of fear and pain. Within his cage, he fluttered like a burning leaf, a moth caught in a candle flame.
Jon found himself remembering a song.
Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Here we know this isn't Mance, but in fact a glamor/disguise. Is time at play here at all?

Quote

Alone again, Dany went all the way around the pyramid in hopes of finding Quaithe, past the burned trees and scorched earth where her men had tried to capture Drogon. But the only sound was the wind in the fruit trees, and the only creatures in the gardens were a few pale moths.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

Quaithe hides behind her mask, and the wind in the trees is always an interesting connection to the "Old Gods".

Quote

Laughter swept the cellar. Davos did not join in. He knew what had befallen the Sloe-Eyed Maid. The gods were cruel to let a man sail across half the world, then send him chasing a false light when he was almost home. That captain was a bolder man than me, he thought, as he made his way to the door. One voyage to the east, and a man could live as rich as a lord until the end of his days. When he'd been younger, Davos had dreamed of making such voyages himself, but the years went dancing by like moths around a flame, and somehow the time had never been quite right. One day, he told himself. One day when the war is done and King Stannis sits the Iron Throne and has no more need of onion knights. I'll take Devan with me. Steff and Stanny too if they're old enough. We'll see these dragons and all the wonders of the world.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos II

Davos seems to be lying to himself here, and again using the moth/time imagery.

Quote

Ahead of them, the bridge grew larger. The Bridge of Dream, Griff called it, but this dream was smashed and broken. Pale stone arches marched off into the fog, reaching from the Palace of Sorrow to the river's western bank. Half of them had collapsed, pulled down by the weight of the grey moss that draped them and the thick black vines that snaked upward from the water. The broad wooden span of the bridge had rotted through, but some of the lamps that lined the way were still aglow. As the Shy Maid drew closer, Tyrion could see the shapes of stone men moving in the light, shuffling aimlessly around the lamps like slow grey moths. Some were naked, others clad in shrouds.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

And here on the Willy Wonka boat ride, we see moths appear again, and some very odd time stuff going on.

Sorry, I have no great analysis here, but in thinking about it I though I would post the quotes and see if anyone had some insight!

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Both the Alchemists of King's Landing and the Warlocks of Quarth have moth eaten robes. So does our wizard Varys.

So is there a connection here between time and moths?

I'm not sure I have a good answer, while there does seem to be a conection between time and moths, at least in so far as the imagrey is repeated, there also seems to be a connection to lies.

The moths are literally lies here, and Littlefinger is "disguised" as Robert. But I don't have a great explanation.

This is almost exactly what Bloodraven tells Bran. I for one think the black trees of the Undying are Weirwoods of a different color.

Here we know this isn't Mance, but in fact a glamor/disguise. Is time at play here at all?

Quaithe hides behind her mask, and the wind in the trees is always an interesting connection to the "Old Gods".

Davos seems to be lying to himself here, and again using the moth/time imagery.

And here on the Willy Wonka boat ride, we see moths appear again, and some very odd time stuff going on.

Sorry, I have no great analysis here, but in thinking about it I though I would post the quotes and see if anyone had some insight!

Oh! Thank you Mourning Star.  I haven't seen all these moth quotes put together before and I agree some of them link moths with lying  but also moth-eaten with decay.  Moths come out at night and live short lives of 2-4 months in their winged phase.  It's their worm phase that eats at cloth. Let's get an expert.  @Seams Any thoughts on moths and moth-eaten clothing?

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Both the Alchemists of King's Landing and the Warlocks of Quarth have moth eaten robes. So does our wizard Varys.

So is there a connection here between time and moths?

I'm not sure I have a good answer, while there does seem to be a conection between time and moths, at least in so far as the imagrey is repeated, there also seems to be a connection to lies.

The moths are literally lies here, and Littlefinger is "disguised" as Robert. But I don't have a great explanation.

This is almost exactly what Bloodraven tells Bran. I for one think the black trees of the Undying are Weirwoods of a different color.

Here we know this isn't Mance, but in fact a glamor/disguise. Is time at play here at all?

Quaithe hides behind her mask, and the wind in the trees is always an interesting connection to the "Old Gods".

Davos seems to be lying to himself here, and again using the moth/time imagery.

And here on the Willy Wonka boat ride, we see moths appear again, and some very odd time stuff going on.

Sorry, I have no great analysis here, but in thinking about it I though I would post the quotes and see if anyone had some insight!

Well, the author used "moth-eaten" to disguise Varys as a "begging-brother", so I would say "moth" in conjunction with "eaten" could be construed as a time reference - one that is "old" and used for a very long time. "Moth" in conjunction with "flame" is of course a very quick, fleeting experience. "Moth" in conjunction with "flutter" and "dancing" would be to move through time quickly. I'm not quite sure of the meaning for "moth" in conjunction with "pale" except to think of nighttime, and I think that idea is supported by the timing of when Daenerys went looking for Quaithe. The one usage of moths that is the most different is the imagery of the pale grey moths coming out of Littlefinger's mouth in Ned's dream. The pale moths in Daenerys's instance indicated nighttime, but it also implies disguise or concealment and surely if you pack clothing away in a box or closet and leave them undisturbed for a length of time, sooner or later the moths will get in there and eat holes in the material. 

This was my rambling way of agreeing with you that all of the examples you've provided are instances of "time"! 

[Tucu]

As we are discussing time and black and white themes in this thread, maybe we can dig a bit into two grey houses: Greyjoy and Stark.

First a quick dig into Ironborn mythology and history and some time inversion from white to grey to black and then backwards...the main Ironborn houses claim to be descendants of the Grey King who might have been a greenseer given the word play that GRRM does between Nagga's bones, driftwood and weirwood.

Quote

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron's heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King's great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga's bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

After the Grey King's death the Iron Islands transformed into petty kingdoms ruled by rock kings and salt kings. This changed when the priest Galon Whitestaff called for the unification of the islands under the Driftwood Crown

Quote

The greatest of the priests was the towering prophet Galon Whitestaff, so-called for the tall carved staff he carried everywhere to smite the ungodly. (In some tales his staff was made of weirwood, in others from one of Nagga's bones.)

It was Galon who decreed that ironborn must not make war on other ironborn, who forbade them to carry off each other's women or raid each other's shores, and who forged the Iron Islands into a single kingdom, summoning the captains and the kings to Old Wyk to choose a high king to reign supreme over salt kings and rock kings alike. They chose Urras Greyiron, called Ironfoot, the salt king of Orkmont and most fearsome reaver of that age. Galon himself placed a driftwood crown upon the high king's head, and Urras Ironfoot became the first man since the Grey King to rule over all the ironborn.

The era of the kingsmoot and Driftwood Crown ended when Urron "Redhand" Greyiron killed all the captains in a kingsmoot and took a black iron crown:

Quote

Better a kingsmoot than a war. "I believe I'll kiss the Damphair's smelly feet and pluck the seaweed from out between his toes." Asha wrenched loose her dirk and sheathed it once again. "A bloody kingsmoot!"

"On Old Wyk," confirmed Lord Rodrik. "Though I pray it is not bloody. I have been consulting Haereg's History of the Ironborn. When last the salt kings and the rock kings met in kingsmoot, Urron of Orkmont let his axemen loose among them, and Nagga's ribs turned red with gore. House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came."

House Greyiron ruled until an alliance of Andal warlords, Orkwoods, Drumms, Hoares, and Greyjoys. With the Hoares in charge the Iron Islands entered the era of the Black Blood:

Quote

Archmaester Hake tells us that the kings of House Hoare were, "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart." Their foes claimed their blood was black as well, darkened by the "Andal taint," for many of the early Hoare kings took maidens of that ilk to wife. True ironborn had salt water in their veins, the priests of the Drowned God proclaimed; the black-blooded Hoares were false kings, ungodly usurpers who must be cast down.

Many tried to do just that over the centuries, as Haereg relates in some detail. None succeeded. What the Hoares lacked in valor they made up for in cunning and cruelty. Few of their subjects ever loved them, but many had good reason to fear their wroth. Their very names proclaim their nature to us, even after the passage of hundreds of years. Wulfgar the Widowmaker. Horgan Priestkiller. Fergon the Fierce. Othgar the Soulless. Othgar Demonlover. Craghorn of the Red Smile. The priests of the Drowned God denounced them all. Were the kings of House Hoare truly as ungodly as these holy men proclaimed? Hake believes they were, but Archmaester Haereg takes a very different view, suggesting that the true crime of the "black-blooded" kings was neither impiety nor demon-worship, but tolerance. For it was under the Hoares that the Faith of the Andals came to the Iron Islands for the first time.

The Black Blood era ended when Aegon burned Black Harren and his sons, starting the reign of the Iron Throne over the Iron Islands and the Riverlands.

Now we get into the ASOIAF books. When Balon declared himself King of the Iron Islands he revived the Driftwood Crown; on his death Aeron called a kingsmoot and Euron again took the Driftwood Crown. We are back in the times of Galon Whitestaff. The future of House Greyjoy seems quite black under Euron, but we see Theon going in the direction of grey and white as his association with Winterfell and the weirwoods evolves:

Quote

Theon wore black and gold, his cloak pinned to his shoulder by a crude iron kraken that a smith in Barrowton had hammered together for him. But under the hood, his hair was white and thin, and his flesh had an old man's greyish undertone. A Stark at last, he thought

With his new relationship with Bran, a "grey" greenseer sitting on his weirwood throne, are we back to the Grey King era?

We have gone from Nagga's teeth, to Driftwood Crown, to iron crown, to Black Blood, to Iron Throne and again to Driftwood Crown...what are we getting next?

[Seams]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

  @Seams Any thoughts on moths and moth-eaten clothing?

I don't know that I have a lot to contribute but I may be able to list some related symbols.

I associate "ragged" clothing with deserters and, through wordplay, with daggers. "Moth-eaten" is different, though. If there is wordplay involved, it seems like it might be related to "mothers." But that doesn't sound right as I read the moth excerpts in @Mourning Star's post.

Unless.

There might be a connection to "mother of dragons." So many of the moth images provided by Mourning Star are associated flames.

An association that seems to be a better fit is the grey and pale grey moth coloring. Tucu is outlining common elements of the Greyjoys and the Stark grey sigil. It's complicated, but I think Rattleshirt is a symbolic Ned Stark (credit to Gloubie Boulga for this idea). So compare these moth excerpts:

Quote

She rose, and let Senelle slip a bedrobe over her shoulders to hide her nakedness. Cersei belted it herself, her fingers stiff and clumsy. "My lord father keeps guards about him, night and day," she said. Her tongue felt thick. She took another swallow of lemon water and sloshed it round her mouth to freshen her breath. A moth had gotten into the lantern Ser Boros was holding; she could hear it buzzing and see the shadow of its wings as it beat against the glass.

...

Within the tower, the smoke from the torches irritated her eyes, but Cersei did not weep, no more than her father would have. I am the only true son he ever had. Her heels scraped against the stone as she climbed, and she could still hear the moth fluttering wildly inside Ser Osmund's lantern. Die, the queen thought at it, in irritation, fly into the flame and be done with it.

AFfC, Cersei I

 

7 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. His screams became one long, wordless shriek of fear and pain. Within his cage, he fluttered like a burning leaf, a moth caught in a candle flame.
Jon found himself remembering a song.
Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done,

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Not sure what to make of the moth being in Boros Blount's lantern but then being in Osmund Kettleblack's lantern. Two different moths?

But the larger point may be that Cersei is rushing to the scene of her father's death (by crossbow) and Jon Snow is witnessing the death of Rattleshirt (symbolic Ned?) who will die by arrows shot when Jon gives the signal. The moth is symbolic of those deaths in a burning cage.

(Perhaps interesting to note that Tyrion steps over a burning log when he uses the secret fireplace door to enter the chambers of the Tower of the Hand. The other person who used that secret entrance is Shae, whose hands are compared to butterflies when Tyrion strangles her.)

But Tywin wasn't a grey guy - he was all about Lannister crimson. Maybe the moth(s) in Cersei's POV is/are symbolic of Ned again. Why won't he die and stop distracting her? That might mean that Tywin was more of a butterfly guy.

Butterflies, by contrast with moths, are colorful. I believe that butterflies could be  some kind of death or afterlife symbol because of their association with Naath, the island that is the homeland of Dany's servant, Missandei. On the other hand, they are also associated with the sigil of House Mullendore.

Ponderous butterfly symbolism begins here.

There is also quite a lot of bug imagery associated with Renly's Rainbow Guard. I don't believe moths and butterflies are directly cited, however.

For what it's worth, the first mention of butterflies is Sansa mentioning that she feels butterflies in her tummy as she goes to plead for Ned's life while Joffrey sits the Iron Throne for the first time. When Sansa escapes King's Landing with Ser Dontos after Joffrey's death, the outfit she hides in a weirwood tree seems as if it is intended to be moth-eaten: it is wool and has seed pearls on it. The image really struck me as being like moth eggs on wool, implying that a hatching will occur and the moth larvae will eat the wool. (Sansa had carefully chosen a blue dress before going to court as she thought Joffrey would like the color. The dress in the weirwood is brown and green - colors of Sandor Clegane's personal sigil but also earth tones, associated with moths. And Sansa does not know it, but her escape with Ser Dontos will deliver her to Littlefinger, mentioned in Ned's dream as having moths emerge from his mouth.)

Besides the color schemes, another difference between moths and butterflies is that moths are attracted to flames and to the moon. This could bring us back to all that moon door imagery discussed earlier.

[Tucu]

The moths takes us to timeless-Bran, fate and the underworld. For the weirwoods the life of men are not much more than the fluttering of a moth's wing.

Quote

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. 

Quote

When he'd been younger, Davos had dreamed of making such voyages himself, but the years went dancing by like moths around a flame, and somehow the time had never been quite right

In ADWD GRRM introduce us to Richard Horpe and his three death's-head moths sigil.

Quote

"Risk is part of war," declared Ser Richard Horpe, a lean knight with a ravaged face whose quilted doublet showed three death's-head moths on a field of ash and bone. "Every battle is a gamble, Snow. The man who does nothing also takes a risk."

In real life there are 3 species of death's-head moth. Two of them have been named after members of the Three Fates or Moirai, the greek goddesses of destiny. The third moth species was named after Styx, the deity and river that separates the human world and the underworld.

The moths in Ned's dream are coming out of a dead person's head so they are death's-head moths :-)