Time and Causality

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

The moths in Ned's dream are coming out of a dead person's head so they are death's-head moths :-)

Love it!  The common grey moth is known for it's ability to be invisible; to blend into tree bark, stones and substrate.  Symbolically, it also represent death and dying.  Moths attracted to the flame reminds me of the undead in the HoU and also the wights who are attracted to the stink of life to quote Gilly.

[Melifeather]

21 hours ago, Tucu said:

As we are discussing time and black and white themes in this thread, maybe we can dig a bit into two grey houses: Greyjoy and Stark.

First a quick dig into Ironborn mythology and history and some time inversion from white to grey to black and then backwards...the main Ironborn houses claim to be descendants of the Grey King who might have been a greenseer given the word play that GRRM does between Nagga's bones, driftwood and weirwood.

After the Grey King's death the Iron Islands transformed into petty kingdoms ruled by rock kings and salt kings. This changed when the priest Galon Whitestaff called for the unification of the islands under the Driftwood Crown

The era of the kingsmoot and Driftwood Crown ended when Urron "Redhand" Greyiron killed all the captains in a kingsmoot and took a black iron crown:

House Greyiron ruled until an alliance of Andal warlords, Orkwoods, Drumms, Hoares, and Greyjoys. With the Hoares in charge the Iron Islands entered the era of the Black Blood:

The Black Blood era ended when Aegon burned Black Harren and his sons, starting the reign of the Iron Throne over the Iron Islands and the Riverlands.

Now we get into the ASOIAF books. When Balon declared himself King of the Iron Islands he revived the Driftwood Crown; on his death Aeron called a kingsmoot and Euron again took the Driftwood Crown. We are back in the times of Galon Whitestaff. The future of House Greyjoy seems quite black under Euron, but we see Theon going in the direction of grey and white as his association with Winterfell and the weirwoods evolves:

With his new relationship with Bran, a "grey" greenseer sitting on his weirwood throne, are we back to the Grey King era?

We have gone from Nagga's teeth, to Driftwood Crown, to iron crown, to Black Blood, to Iron Throne and again to Driftwood Crown...what are we getting next?

Sort of a gradual shift or gradient starting from the snowy white north to the grey Starks to the black Greyjoys. What color were Nagga's teeth and bones? Dragon bones are black, but Nagga was some sort of sea creature so they could be white. Driftwood to me is a bluish-grey, and the iron crown was black. If the. shift was white to grey to black and now its grey again, then it seems to me the next step is back to white.

[Mourning Star]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

I don't know that I have a lot to contribute but I may be able to list some related symbols.

I associate "ragged" clothing with deserters and, through wordplay, with daggers. "Moth-eaten" is different, though. If there is wordplay involved, it seems like it might be related to "mothers." But that doesn't sound right as I read the moth excerpts in @Mourning Star's post.

I toyed briefly with the idea that the men in moth eaten robes are "holy" men, all being magic practitioners.

Punny perhaps but not terribly deep.

17 hours ago, Seams said:

There might be a connection to "mother of dragons." So many of the moth images provided by Mourning Star are associated flames.

I think there is a great little role reversal to be found in the House of the Undying.

Quote

"When you come to the chamber of the Undying, be patient. Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them. Listen well, and write each word upon your heart."

However, along the way she turns this around on ol' Pree:

Quote

"That's not the way," Pyat Pree said firmly, his blue lips prim with disapproval. "The Undying Ones will not wait forever."
"Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them," Dany said, remembering.
"Stubborn child. You will be lost, and never found."
She walked away from him, to the door on the right.
"No," Pyat screeched. "No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee." His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike.

Not only is this perspective on time exactly how Bloodraven later describes Weirwoods view of time to Bran, but here in the House of the Undying it seems there is a reversal. Pree, a warlock, is a larval Undying, as we see him revealed as something pale and wormlike.

Then the Undying circle and desire Dany, like moths to a flame... obviously they end up getting burned.

After making this cute little connection, I took another stab at the other "holy" men from above.

The pyromancers worship flames openly enough.

While Varys had his own encounter with fire.

Quote

 I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

I wonder if Varys ever later learned what those words he heard meant.

Quote

To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

As for Cersei, I also find it odd that the moth moved from Boros's lantern to Osmund's, it could just be an error, but I will speculate wildly assuming it is intended because that seems more fun.

17 hours ago, Seams said:

Not sure what to make of the moth being in Boros Blount's lantern but then being in Osmund Kettleblack's lantern. Two different moths?

If we take a look at the larger scene, it seems that these men are flittering around Cersei.

Quote

We are not alone, the queen realized. Shadows loomed around her bed, tall shapes with chain mail glimmering beneath their cloaks. Armed men had no business here. Where are my guards? Her bedchamber was dark, but for the lantern one of the intruders held on high. I must show no fear. Cersei pushed back sleep-tousled hair, and said, "What do you want of me?" A man stepped into the lantern light, and she saw his cloak was white. "Jaime?" I dreamt of one brother, but the other has come to wake me.

And if Cersei is the flame, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei is the doom of both men.

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Sort of a gradual shift or gradient starting from the snowy white north to the grey Starks to the black Greyjoys. What color were Nagga's teeth and bones? Dragon bones are black, but Nagga was some sort of sea creature so they could be white. Driftwood to me is a bluish-grey, and the iron crown was black. If the. shift was white to grey to black and now its grey again, then it seems to me the next step is back to white.

Nagga's bones are white as weirwood (probably because they are petrified weirwood). The colour of the driftwood crowns is not mentioned but the kings were heirs to the Grey King so I would place the driftwood crown at some shade of grey.

Theon starts as a black character that wants to be a grey/white one. He follows Robb until he betrays him and becomes the "black waves" that crashed into Winterfell

Quote

"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle

Unintentionally Theon links his fate to the grey winged wolf imprisoned in Winterfell. By taking Winterfell, Theon frees Bran from his stone chains.

Quote

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains"

From there Bran is guided by a series of blacked-themed characters towards his white throne. And Theon starts his tragic journey to become the grey/white Stark he wanted to be:

Quote

But under the hood, his hair was white and thin, and his flesh had an old man's greyish undertone. A Stark at last, he thought.

This scene is before the wedding ceremony and immediately after tis Theon is contacted by Tree-Bran.

We got two grey houses linked across the millenia.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Nagga's bones are white as weirwood (probably because they are petrified weirwood). The colour of the driftwood crowns is not mentioned but the kings were heirs to the Grey King so I would place the driftwood crown at some shade of grey.

I know that's a popular theory, but I think Nagga really was some fantastic sea creature. The text says the Grey Lord killed Nagga then made her "living flame" his thrall. Sounds to me like he raised her like a wight and had control over her.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains"

I agree that the interpretation of the "winged wolf" as being Bran - the Crow said he would learn to fly - but the "stone chains" are a mystery. I can see how being wedded to the trees is a type of chain, but the "stone" part sounds like Bran is actually dead.

[Tucu]

46 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I know that's a popular theory, but I think Nagga really was some fantastic sea creature. The text says the Grey Lord killed Nagga then made her "living flame" his thrall. Sounds to me like he raised her like a wight and had control over her.

It is possible that the Grey King controlled some sea creatures if he was a greenseer. But GRRM really teases us with the double tales about Nagga's bones. Galon's white staff is made of Nagga's bones in one tale and of weirwood in another. The Grey King's crown is made of Nagga's teeth in one tale and of wood in another. As Hoster Blackwood calls it: the "fog of legend"

46 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I agree that the interpretation of the "winged wolf" as being Bran - the Crow said he would learn to fly - but the "stone chains" are a mystery. I can see how being wedded to the trees is a type of chain, but the "stone" part sounds like Bran is actually dead.

I interpret Winterfell as the grey stone chains. For Bran to learn to fly, Winterfell had to be broken. Winterfell is described as a grey stone labyrinth that sounds like a reference to the Labyrinth holding the minotaur.

Quote

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions

As they leave Winterfell, Bran thinks:

Quote

The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

As they walk towards The Wall, Jojen tells Bran:

Quote

“I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly.”

Jojen seems to be another of Bran's "black guides" and his fate is also linked to Bran.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is possible that the Grey King controlled some sea creatures if he was a greenseer. But GRRM really teases us with the double tales about Nagga's bones. Galon's white staff is made of Nagga's bones in one tale and of weirwood in another. The Grey King's crown is made of Nagga's teeth in one tale and of wood in another. As Hoster Blackwood calls it: the "fog of legend"

I interpret Winterfell as the grey stone chains. For Bran to learn to fly, Winterfell had to be broken. Winterfell is described as a grey stone labyrinth that sounds like a reference to the Labyrinth holding the minotaur.

As they leave Winterfell, Bran thinks:

As they walk towards The Wall, Jojen tells Bran:

Jojen seems to be another of Bran's "black guides" and his fate is also linked to Bran.

That was quite convincing! I’m am now on board with your interpretation!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

12 hours ago, Tucu said:

The moths takes us to timeless-Bran, fate and the underworld. For the weirwoods the life of men are not much more than the fluttering of a moth's wing.

In ADWD GRRM introduce us to Richard Horpe and his three death's-head moths sigil.

In real life there are 3 species of death's-head moth. Two of them have been named after members of the Three Fates or Moirai, the greek goddesses of destiny. The third moth species was named after Styx, the deity and river that separates the human world and the underworld.

The moths in Ned's dream are coming out of a dead person's head so they are death's-head moths :-)

Love this! Especially the Styx/Underworld connection. Equally as great is the death's-head moths coming out of a dead persons head. Great observation!

Some of my pals on here discussed a Silence of the Lambs connection with the death's-head moth a while back. @Pain killer Jane and @ravenous reader if I recall correctly. 

If I can add anything (A lot has been covered) is that the moth is associated with change or transformation. This brings to mind the ability to skinchange.

There's also the death/re-birth association relating to Gseeing and second life (I think that was mentioned)

Moreover, moths have compound eyes, which are essentially a thousand eyes in one. Basically, moths have a load of Gseer symbolism, which fits nicely into @Mourning Star's excellent post. 

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Some of my pals on here discussed a Silence of the Lambs connection with the death's-head moth a while back.

Damn. Was working on that. Didn't realize somebody beat me to it a long back. 

[Tucu]

9 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Love this! Especially the Styx/Underworld connection. Equally as great is the death's-head moths coming out of a dead persons head. Great observation!

Some of my pals on here discussed a Silence of the Lambs connection with the death's-head moth a while back. @Pain killer Jane and @ravenous reader if I recall correctly. 

If I can add anything (A lot has been covered) is that the moth is associated with change or transformation. This brings to mind the ability to skinchange.

There's also the death/re-birth association relating to Gseeing and second life (I think that was mentioned)

Moreover, moths have compound eyes, which are essentially a thousand eyes in one. Basically, moths have a load of Gseer symbolism, which fits nicely into @Mourning Star's excellent post. 

I missed the transformation angle. Ned's dream can also be seen as the moths hatching out of a cocoon made of lies.

Quote

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

The lies of Ned and Littlefinger decided the fate of many.

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

I've always found this curious.  What truth did Ned hide from Robert? What lies did he tell? How did he let them kill Robert? 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I've always found this curious.  What truth did Ned hide from Robert? What lies did he tell? How did he let them kill Robert? 

The most immediate ones are his investigation of Jon's death and of Robert's bastards, the discovery about Joffrey's father, his request to Cersei to flee and his plot with Littlefinger and Janos to give the throne to Stannis.

But that chapter is layered as a cocoon :-)

First he thinks:

Quote

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Then he dreams of Robert at his peak:

Quote

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. “Look at us, Ned,” Robert said. “Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together…“

Then he gets into the moth part, the Harrenhal tourney and back to his promises.

Quote

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

So Ned's cocoon of lies seems to go all the way to Harrenhal.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

So Ned's cocoon of lies seems to go all the way to Harrenhal

The mocking bird's plumage is pale grey with shades and patterns of darker grey.  From the family of Mimidae.  They also become invisible in the background, mimic the sounds of other birds as well as insects.  So they speak many tongues.  

A mockingbird riding on the tail of a hawk

RTH-and-Mock-Chase-Wiki - Northern mockingbird - Wikipedia

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

The mocking bird's plumage is pale grey with shades and patterns of darker grey.  From the family of Mimidae.  They also become invisible in the background, mimic the sounds of other birds as well as insects.  So they speak many tongues.  

A mockingbird riding on the tail of a hawk

RTH-and-Mock-Chase-Wiki - Northern mockingbird - Wikipedia

I have been trying to figure out if there was a mockingbird at the Harrenhal tournament. TWOW Alayne I might be a retelling of the events in Harrenhal. We have the mad king (Robyn), the heir (Harry), the not-so-inocent dancing maid (Sansa), the host (Nestor Royce), the hidden-financier (Littlefinger), a knight with a shield with red eyes (Shadrich) and the viper (Lynderly).

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have been trying to figure out if there was a mockingbird at the Harrenhal tournament. TWOW Alayne I might be a retelling of the events in Harrenhal. We have the mad king (Robyn), the heir (Harry), the not-so-inocent dancing maid (Sansa), the host (Nestor Royce), the hidden-financier (Littlefinger), a knight with a shield with red eyes (Shadrich) and the viper (Lynderly).

Is Sansa the mockingbird now?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

Gretchel had stripped the bed and laid out the rest of her clothing. Alayne was already wearing woolen hose beneath her skirts, over a double layer of smallclothes. Now she donned a lambswool overtunic and a hooded fur cloak, fastening it with an enameled mockingbird that had been a gift from Petyr. There was a scarf as well, and a pair of leather gloves lined with fur to match her riding boots. When she'd donned it all, she felt as fat and furry as a bear cub. I will be glad of it on the mountain, she had to remind herself. She took one last look at her room before she left. I was safe here, she thought, but down below . . .

 

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is Sansa the mockingbird now?

 

I missed Sansa's evolution into a bird of prey. Her own version of skinchanging going from a little talking bird to a mockingbird and on her way to becoming a falcon.

Sandor basically calls her a parrot:

Quote

"Some septa trained you well. You're like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren't you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite."

Quote

That boy today, his second joust, oh, that was a pretty bit of business. You saw that, did you? Fool boy, he had no business riding in this company. No money, no squire, no one to help him with that armor. That gorget wasn't fastened proper. You think Gregor didn't notice that? You think Ser Gregor's lance rode up by chance, do you? Pretty little talking girl, you believe that, you're empty-headed as a bird for true. Gregor's lance goes where Gregor wants it to go. Look at me. Look at me!" Sandor Clegane put a huge hand under her chin and forced her face up. He squatted in front of her, and moved the torch close. "There's a pretty for you. Take a good long stare. You know you want to. I've watched you turning away all the way down the kingsroad. Piss on that. Take your look."

In your quote Littlefinger brands her as a grey mockingbird

But she wishes to be a falcon:

Quote

So lovely. The snow-clad summit of the Giant's Lance loomed above her, an immensity of stone and ice that dwarfed the castle perched upon its shoulder. Icicles twenty feet long draped the lip of the precipice where Alyssa's Tears fell in summer. A falcon soared above the frozen waterfall, blue wings spread wide against the morning sky. Would that I had wings as well.

and will have to kill a robin to get there.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I missed Sansa's evolution into a bird of prey. Her own version of skinchanging going from a little talking bird to a mockingbird and on her way to becoming a falcon.

Sandor basically calls her a parrot:

In your quote Littlefinger brands her as a grey mockingbird

But she wishes to be a falcon:

and will have to kill a robin to get there.

Oh Lord! @Curled Finger is going to love this.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

I missed Sansa's evolution into a bird of prey. Her own version of skinchanging going from a little talking bird to a mockingbird and on her way to becoming a falcon.

Before that she is dressed up as a silver dove. The long sleeves of her gown are like wings at rest.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa III

Cersei herself arrived with the seamstress, and watched as they dressed Sansa in her new clothes. The smallclothes were all silk, but the gown itself was ivory samite and cloth-of-silver, and lined with silvery satin. The points of the long dagged sleeves almost touched the ground when she lowered her arms. And it was a woman's gown, not a little girl's, there was no doubt of that. The bodice was slashed in front almost to her belly, the deep vee covered over with a panel of ornate Myrish lace in dove-grey. The skirts were long and full, the waist so tight that Sansa had to hold her breath as they laced her into it. They brought her new shoes as well, slippers of soft grey doeskin that hugged her feet like lovers. "You are very beautiful, my lady," the seamstress said when she was dressed.

 

[LongRider]

On 11/18/2020 at 8:44 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hopefully the other crew could come back too, @Booknerd2 @LongRider & @Le Cygne (among others) were the other main contributors. Hi fam if you're seeing this. 

Edited November 18 by Wizz-The-Smith

Hey Wizz!   The Riverlands Web was such a special and fun run of threads.  Nice to hear that others find it from time to time and hope they enjoy it. 

Another thread that also gets mentioned occasionally is the Rethinking Romance thread where some of us ‘Webbers’ also spent some time at.

The Rethinking Romance II thread can still be found in the Re-Reading Project threads of the forum.  

Finding old threads can uncover many good discussions I enjoy reading them occasionally myself. 
The Re-Reading Project threads has a pinned thread that lists many threads of re-read projects and there are a  bunch.

 

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/7/2020 at 9:38 AM, LynnS said:

I think we've had a pretty big reveal, in an interview with George Martin, in a newly published book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon", by James Hibberd.  I guess it's more or less in the public domain at this point.

This is especially interesting to me because I've been banging on about the events at the Skirling Pass for a while; as an example of Martin manipulating time.  I don't call it time travel.  Martin's explanation that events in the future an affect the past, seems better to me.  I would never have guessed that Hodor was connected to Bran through the dimension of time and was changed by events in the future.  When Martin says that the hold the door incident was more akin to hold the pass and that Bran went into Hodor's mind;  I think he was referring to the events at the door to Bloodraven's cave.

I think this is the event where Bran went into Hodor's mind so powerfully, it broke Hodor's mind in the past.   

Besides Hodor and the Skirling Pass, I think there is another incident of time manipulation that we could define as deja vu.  

To be continued...

 

You know, it may be mind intrusion from Bloodraven which broke King Aerys.  Look at what the king wanted to do.  Irrigate Dorne and build a second wall.  Those are what you would do to prepare for the Others and the wights.  Farming will be impossible in the northern lats but Dorne may remain unfrozen.  Watering the desert is a good idea.