Time and Causality

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, Tucu said:

I have been trying to figure out if there was a mockingbird at the Harrenhal tournament. TWOW Alayne I might be a retelling of the events in Harrenhal. We have the mad king (Robyn), the heir (Harry), the not-so-inocent dancing maid (Sansa), the host (Nestor Royce), the hidden-financier (Littlefinger), a knight with a shield with red eyes (Shadrich) and the viper (Lynderly).

I agree. Sorry to be brief, but I’m leaving now for work. I’ll return later to contribute additional thoughts. 
 

I wrote a theory about Shadrich: https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/19684/thread

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

You know, it may be mind intrusion from Bloodraven which broke King Aerys.  Look at what the king wanted to do.  Irrigate Dorne and build a second wall.  Those are what you would do to prepare for the Others and the wights.  Farming will be impossible in the northern lats but Dorne may remain unfrozen.  Watering the desert is a good idea.  

Um, I don't know. I think it's possible that he may have had dragon dreams similar to Dany's dreams.  Waking the dragon may have contributed to his madness.  I'm not aware of Aerys having any ambitions regarding Dorne though,  He was promised 10,000 troops in Robert's Rebellion that never arrived and he effectively took Elia and her children hostage.  I'm not sure how far winter will reach.  In the epilogue of DwD, It's beginning to snow in King's Landing.  Dorne is already separated by mountains which act as a kind of wall against the cold.  That may change weather patterns for precipitation in the desert. 

ETA:  I think you can add warm ocean currents to the mix to temper the cold in the desert and changes to atmospheric patterns that could shift precipitation say from the rainforest areas east to the desert.  So plausible and interesting.  Osha did say she wanted to get as far south as possible.  

If there is grass in the desert, they can graze goats and sheep, they can fish the seas and it may be warm enough in the south for trade of agricultural goods.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, LongRider said:

Hey Wizz!   The Riverlands Web was such a special and fun run of threads.  Nice to hear that others find it from time to time and hope they enjoy it. 

Another thread that also gets mentioned occasionally is the Rethinking Romance thread where some of us ‘Webbers’ also spent some time at.

The Rethinking Romance II thread can still be found in the Re-Reading Project threads of the forum.  

Finding old threads can uncover many good discussions I enjoy reading them occasionally myself. 
The Re-Reading Project threads has a pinned thread that lists many threads of re-read projects and there are a  bunch.

 

It is soooooooo good to see you! 

[Curled Finger]

On 11/23/2020 at 5:21 AM, LynnS said:

I'm really enjoyed Crowfood's Daughter's essay!  This:

I would bet money the Shade of the Evening Tree does this... - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

Oily black stones as petrified remnants of Shade of the Evening Tree.  I buy that completely.  I suspect an even more direct connection Between Euron and the House of Undying than a few casks of the wizard's drink.

Sorry, I am behind the topic--too much feasting!  I am sort of thinking about this reversed.  Your oily black stones being the "seeds" of magical trees puts me in a mind of perhaps the heart of the meteor that Dawn and Starfall are made from could be perhaps the seeds of the weirwood.  Of course I'm trying to see where this fits with swords that could be super powered.   Dawn is obviously a wonder, but Starfall is often overlooked.   Starfall has been in place for as long as 10,000 years and remains milkglass white.   Hrm.  

[Curled Finger]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:59 AM, LynnS said:

I've always found this curious.  What truth did Ned hide from Robert? What lies did he tell? How did he let them kill Robert? 

@Tucu gave you a nice list of hidden truths.   I simply want to add the fact of Jon's birth and parentage to that list. 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Tucu gave you a nice list of hidden truths.   I simply want to add the fact of Jon's birth and parentage to that list. 

I'm loving the trail Tucu is following.  Really interesting stuff!

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Tucu said:

I missed Sansa's evolution into a bird of prey. Her own version of skinchanging going from a little talking bird to a mockingbird and on her way to becoming a falcon.

Sandor basically calls her a parrot:

In your quote Littlefinger brands her as a grey mockingbird

But she wishes to be a falcon:

and will have to kill a robin to get there.

I do love this.  Only thing I wish to pick at is the bird of prey transformation.  Sansa is a wolf who was pretty much excised from her pack and beaten into a sort of submission.   Fear only feeds fear, after all.  Your quotes illustrate Sansa's sort of outer shedding of her wolf identity to the taking up of her mocking bird identity.  It's a fluid, defineable change.   Now there is no denying this falcon bit you've brought up, but it only appears in a scene.   I beg your pardon because I struggle with symbolism.  Does Sansa really wish to become a falcon or is this Little Finger's symbolism/motives/ideals having their sway over her?   Am I completely off base here?   

Your quotes really spoke to me of Sansa's transformations.   Well-chosen! 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

You know, it may be mind intrusion from Bloodraven which broke King Aerys.  Look at what the king wanted to do.  Irrigate Dorne and build a second wall.  Those are what you would do to prepare for the Others and the wights.  Farming will be impossible in the northern lats but Dorne may remain unfrozen.  Watering the desert is a good idea.  

This pricked my interest as I try to soak in all these ideas.  I'm with you that Aerys changed dramatically.   There was a time he was a decent king with good ideas.   We are told Duskendale is where he broke.  (Even though he really wasn't there for long and it only took 1 badass knight to rescue him).  Keep that up front.   Bloodraven tells Bran he cannot interact with the memories or memory spectres and lists off the brother he loved, the brother he hated and the woman he desired as proof of this prohibition.  Still, we read that Bran believes Ned heard him through time.  I'm not so sure BR is the guy pulling all the strings through time.  Bloodraven seems to be able to manage all sorts of being everywhere in the present and that makes sense to me if his powers only allow this much er mobility.   Bran himself could be more likely to pull a head visit to Aerys in the past.   I don't think mind intrusion (great term, thankee Sai) is any less likely than Targaryan genetic madness or a short stint in Duskenhell as a means for corrupting Aerys.  

@LynnSand @Melifeather gave me a very gracious breakdown of Bran's potential ability to time jump if you have not read any further.   Check it out, let us know what you think.   

[Melifeather]

57 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I do love this.  Only thing I wish to pick at is the bird of prey transformation.  Sansa is a wolf who was pretty much excised from her pack and beaten into a sort of submission.   Fear only feeds fear, after all.  Your quotes illustrate Sansa's sort of outer shedding of her wolf identity to the taking up of her mocking bird identity.  It's a fluid, defineable change.   Now there is no denying this falcon bit you've brought up, but it only appears in a scene.   I beg your pardon because I struggle with symbolism.  Does Sansa really wish to become a falcon or is this Little Finger's symbolism/motives/ideals having their sway over her?   Am I completely off base here?   

Your quotes really spoke to me of Sansa's transformations.   Well-chosen! 

The thing with Sansa is that nobody, but Littlefinger or Robyn know who she is. To everyone else she's Littlefinger's daughter Alayne, therefore she cannot be pretending to want to be a falcon, because as Littlefinger's daughter she's too low born to become a falcon. Does that make sense? I think she DOES want to be a falcon, because she really wants to secure Harry the Heir as her husband and that WOULD make her a falcon.

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The thing with Sansa is that nobody, but Littlefinger or Robyn know who she is. To everyone else she's Littlefinger's daughter Alayne, therefore she cannot be pretending to want to be a falcon, because as Littlefinger's daughter she's too low born to become a falcon. Does that make sense? I think she DOES want to be a falcon, because she really wants to secure Harry the Heir as her husband and that WOULD make her a falcon.

It makes great sense.   Your thinking is where my question stems from.   I never read Sansa as desiring to be a predator though I can see where there is some writing on walls for this to happen.   However, in the light you shed on this falcon, Tucu's idea makes much greater sense.   I appreciate the clarification, Lady.  

[Melifeather]

On 11/26/2020 at 11:56 AM, Tucu said:

I have been trying to figure out if there was a mockingbird at the Harrenhal tournament. TWOW Alayne I might be a retelling of the events in Harrenhal. We have the mad king (Robyn), the heir (Harry), the not-so-inocent dancing maid (Sansa), the host (Nestor Royce), the hidden-financier (Littlefinger), a knight with a shield with red eyes (Shadrich) and the viper (Lynderly).

After reviewing the three parallels of Howland, Arya, and Shadrich I think Sansa's role is to be the lady everyone is looking for. 

In Howland's loop everyone was looking for Lyanna.

In Arya's loop, Arya is the maiden trying to find her way home.

In Shadrich's loop, HE is actively looking for Sansa.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I do love this.  Only thing I wish to pick at is the bird of prey transformation.  Sansa is a wolf who was pretty much excised from her pack and beaten into a sort of submission.   Fear only feeds fear, after all.  Your quotes illustrate Sansa's sort of outer shedding of her wolf identity to the taking up of her mocking bird identity.  It's a fluid, defineable change.   Now there is no denying this falcon bit you've brought up, but it only appears in a scene.   I beg your pardon because I struggle with symbolism.  Does Sansa really wish to become a falcon or is this Little Finger's symbolism/motives/ideals having their sway over her?   Am I completely off base here?   

Your quotes really spoke to me of Sansa's transformations.   Well-chosen! 

Sansa seem to have lost most of her wolf identity as the events in the Trident and KL pushed hers towards becoming a little bird; Littlefinger was her guide to her current identity as the mockingbird. By Alayne I in TWOW she seems to be fully onboard with the plan of becoming an Arryn (a falcon). She even loves the games she is playing:

Spoiler

Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father… since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

Notice how she even corrects herself about Ned.

 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

You know, it may be mind intrusion from Bloodraven which broke King Aerys.

I think I've misunderstood what you meant here.  Also, if you want to discuss Mance, we can do it at Heresy on the current thread.  I think Alien Area feels the same as you.  If you still want to convince me, I'm all ears. 

[Curled Finger]

59 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Sansa seem to have lost most of her wolf identity as the events in the Trident and KL pushed hers towards becoming a little bird; Littlefinger was her guide to her current identity as the mockingbird. By Alayne I in TWOW she seems to be fully onboard with the plan of becoming an Arryn (a falcon). She even loves the games she is playing:

  Hide contents

Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father… since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

Notice how she even corrects herself about Ned.

 

Thank you for the extra words, Tucu.  The quote is such a strange passage, Sansa keeping herself in line in her new reality.  I always thought she was happy because she got to plan this big party.   I would think that would be a goal all younger ladies in training would want.  She really is trying to play the game before her.   

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Thank you for the extra words, Tucu.  The quote is such a strange passage, Sansa keeping herself in line in her new reality.  I always thought she was happy because she got to plan this big party.   I would think that would be a goal all younger ladies in training would want.  She really is trying to play the game before her.   

It is in fact a strange chapter. No one calls her Sansa, not even herself or the narrator. She is almost fully assuming the identity of Alayne. It reminds me of Reek I; there the name Theon is never mentioned. 

Sansa joins Arya and Theon on the path of identity supression.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

After reviewing the three parallels of Howland, Arya, and Shadrich I think Sansa's role is to be the lady everyone is looking for. 

In Howland's loop everyone was looking for Lyanna.

In Arya's loop, Arya is the maiden trying to find her way home.

In Shadrich's loop, HE is actively looking for Sansa.

I am not sure how it could fit in the loops, but Arya is the mouse of Harrenhal and she keeps seeking blood. As Shadrich puts it:

Quote

Your common mouse will run from blood and battle. The mad mouse seeks them out

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

16 hours ago, LongRider said:

Hey Wizz!   The Riverlands Web was such a special and fun run of threads.  Nice to hear that others find it from time to time and hope they enjoy it. 

Another thread that also gets mentioned occasionally is the Rethinking Romance thread where some of us ‘Webbers’ also spent some time at.

The Rethinking Romance II thread can still be found in the Re-Reading Project threads of the forum.  

Finding old threads can uncover many good discussions I enjoy reading them occasionally myself. 
The Re-Reading Project threads has a pinned thread that lists many threads of re-read projects and there are a  bunch.

Hey Longie. Great to see you, hope you're well. I agree The Rethinking Romance threads are well worth a read, some great discussions with a bunch of awesome posters.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

It is in fact a strange chapter. No one calls her Sansa, not even herself or the narrator. She is almost fully assuming the identity of Alayne. It reminds me of Reek I; there the name Theon is never mentioned. 

Sansa joins Arya and Theon on the path of identity supression.

That's actually a brilliant comparison.  Alayne I is my least favorite preview chapter because it is so creepy.  Not knuckle gnashing like The Forsaken, but sad and fraught with supression.  Her peril is no less than Theon's without a visible knife to her throat.  She has to subvert her own thoughts as Arya often has a second answer for questions from her own mind.   It is uncomfortable to read right when we see Arya come a whole lot closer to herself and Theon shedding some of his Reek persona.  Thanks, Man. 

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It is soooooooo good to see you! 

 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Longie. Great to see you, hope you're well. I agree The Rethinking Romance threads are well worth a read, some great discussions with a bunch of awesome posters.  

Thanks for the kind words.   Now that the USA election is over perhaps l might wander over now and again.    

When my area shut down for COVID last spring I spent some time reading old threads and also reread Game, Clash and Storm as the library was closed.  Was fun.  Think I’ll mosey up to the OP of this thread and see what you all are cooking up. 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Thanks for the kind words.   Now that the USA election is over perhaps l might wander over now and again.    

When my area shut down for COVID last spring I spent some time reading old threads and also reread Game, Clash and Storm as the library was closed.  Was fun.  Think I’ll mosey up to the OP of this thread and see what you all are cooking up. 

 

Greetings LongRider!  I don't think we've met on the forums before but you are very welcome here.  The OP has morphed to a number of different subjects that are of interest.  Feel free to wander over as much as it pleases you.

I can't say much about American politics but my province is currently in covid lockdown.  The only person I see now is my niece once a week for Game of Thrones night and dinner.  She hasn't seen it before or read the books.  I haven't told her anything about Ned or the red wedding.  I'm not sure if that makes me a bad aunt or not.  I think I'll need wine or a little something-something for that episode.